Any Old Remington Employees Here, or Smiths Experienced On the Remington 700?

[Basic user]

Having an issue with feeding from two Rem 700's both in 6.5 Creed. They were perfect before getting pillar bedded. So now they both shoot fantastic, but dont feed worth a dam. They aways pass the hand feeding dummies test, but on the range is ALWAYS a whole other story; must be the recoil that does something.
The only thing I could find was that after they were bedded, the blind magazine box kinda had some vertical play in it. Noticed that when I took the action out of the stock and bolted the bottom metal back up to it to see how it looked assembled. Noticed the action screws were now too long and would interfere with the bolt. I asked myself how could this be? If this is mated perfectly without the stock, how are the screws too long?
Now I see - the assembled (in the stock) rifle is longer (taller) inside the stock than it is without. So then after it was all back together again and with the floor plate open, I could stick my hand in there and slide the mag box up and down about four millimeters. This to me didnt seem right but I was told by someone there was indeed supposed to be that play in there.
While looking at the mag box, spring and follower design, I noticed the blued steel mag box was different than the stainless model I have. And they're both different than the ones you see on Ebay that have the little tab or eye on back of the box, where I think you can screw this box down to the action.
1. This box that can be screwed down to the action; it seems older. Is it? Was this discontinued? What was it for originally?
2. My stainless mag box has what appear to be laser cuts in it, and the folds to act like feed lips are more aggressive (closer) Why did the design change? Or was one meant for the 308 and the other a 6.5 creed? I dont know. Was it just a product improvement/change proposal over the years?

 

[supercorndogs]

Yes there should be play in the mag box.

I think the boxes with a little screw eyelet you are seeing are for adl models.

What is your feed failure? Tip of bullet under feed ramp? Bolt overruns case?

I have never seen a mag box like the first one showed. Maybe short mag or something possibley? The feed lies for adl and bdl feed action are integral to the action machined into the rails.

 

[Boatninja]

I don't think you are locking the box into the bottom of the receiver. Just a mistake I have made.

 

[Basic user]

Yes there should be play in the mag box.

I think the boxes with a little screw eyelet you are seeing are for adl models.

What is your feed failure? Tip of bullet under feed ramp? Bolt overruns case?

I have never seen a mag box like the first one showed. Maybe short mag or something possibley? The feed lies for adl and bdl feed action are integral to the action machined into the rails.

The FtF is the bolt pushes the bullet tip into the ONLY flat section of the bottom of the feed ramp that exists lol. Of course it would find that 2mm section.
If the feed lips are the bottom of the action (which I kind of thought myself as well) then these bends in the sides of the mag boxes are a tad too wide. The follower hangs up on these 'lips' if you will but ever so slightly. I wonder if that's supposed to be that way?

 

[Basic user]

I don't think you are locking the box into the bottom of the receiver. Just a mistake I have made.

No I do; I make it a point to as before these were bedded, the bottom metal wouldnt seat unless they were so it's become a habit.
And this is why i truly dont believe there should be any play... because then what would be the entire point of the whole design if this box just slops around inside that whole area? It would never stay 'locked' as there's too much space between the bottom of the mag box and the top of the bottom metal.

 

[spife7980]

If the mag box doesn’t have play then it’s putting stress between the stock and the action. It should be free to wiggle, but not flip around haphazardly.

 

[supercorndogs]

The mag box being tight would mean when tightening the action screws, it would make the action flex in the middle.

 

[Basic user]

The mag box being tight would mean when tightening the action screws, it would make the action flex in the middle.

The same could be said about any pillar in a pillar bed job that wasn't cut PRECISELY short enough to squeeze a LITTLE bit of the stock, but then stop there because otherwise, you'd be squeezing just the pillars, and the stock wouldnt get any tension whatsoever, and conversely, the pillars would get almost no squeeze, and the stock would take most of the tension, but would then swell and contract with the humidity, defeating the entire reason for the pillars.
That's why a pillar bed job is kind of a precise job. The amount of movement in this box far exceeds the amount of play necessary to prevent it from being crushed when torquing action screws. That was one of my questions I guess; was how much play.

 

[spife7980]

Sounds like you are applying flawed logic from a misunderstanding of bedding to everything else.

 

[supercorndogs]

The same could be said about any pillar in a pillar bed job that wasn't cut PRECISELY short enough to squeeze a LITTLE bit of the stock, but then stop there because otherwise, you'd be squeezing just the pillars, and the stock wouldnt get any tension whatsoever, and conversely, the pillars would get almost no squeeze, and the stock would take most of the tension, but would then swell and contract with the humidity, defeating the entire reason for the pillars.
That's why a pillar bed job is kind of a precise job. The amount of movement in this box far exceeds the amount of play necessary to prevent it from being crushed when torquing action screws. That was one of my questions I guess; was how much play.

No. The pillars should take all the squeeze. That is literally their purpose. The pillars should be permanently adhered to the stock.

 

[Basic user]

Sounds like you are applying flawed logic from a misunderstanding of bedding to everything else.

It's flawed? Then that's why I am here. Could you explain?

 

[supercorndogs]

A little more than an 1/8" i could see being excessive. It doesn't make any sense though that your actions screws were too long of pillar bedding but your mag box is now too short.

They fed fine before pillar bedding, they both don't feed after pillar bedding. If that is the only thing that changed you already know there is something wro g there now.

Although what you have happening sounds like what happens to Remingtons running ammo that's too long without notching the feed ramp.

 

[Basic user]

A little more than an 1/8" i could see being excessive. It doesn't make any sense though that your actions screws were too long of pillar bedding but your mag box is now too short.

They fed fine before pillar bedding, they both don't feed after pillar bedding. If that is the only thing that changed you already know there is something wro g there now.

Although what you have happening sounds like what happens to Remingtons running ammo that's too long without notching the feed ramp.

OH, I see. Could you tell me about that? I do run them long, but not longer than the length of the inside dimension of that mag box. Does that change anything?

 

[supercorndogs]

I don't have a rifle in front of me to check . Open up your floor plate and look at the action on the front where the feed ramp is. Does the feed ramp hang over the box? Seems like getting out toward 2.88-2.9 range the tip of the bullet can start getting stuck under the feed ramp. Searching for remington 700 feed ramp notch would probably bring you quite a few results.

 

[spife7980]

Supes covered it but pillars should take all of the compressive force but still be permanently bonded to the stock so there is no relative motion between the action, pillars and stock. The stock compresses as you said, thats not what we want.

You action and bottom metal should be a certain space apart though controlled by pillar length. If your pillars are incorrectly measured then you could have introduced feeding problems by the newly induced geometry. Your bottom metal should hopefully spec how far apart(pillar length) they should be, if it’s just factory then match the distance before relieving stock material so you can match it back.

The bullet under the feed ramp is common. A dremel grinding wheel gets rid of that overhang. This is looking up through an empty aics magazine showing where the interference was relieved .

 

[supercorndogs]

Supes covered it but pillars should take all of the compressive force but still be permanently bonded to the stock so there is no relative motion between the action, pillars and stock. The stock compresses as you said, thats not what we want.

You action and bottom metal should be a certain space apart though controlled by pillar length. If your pillars are incorrectly measured then you could have introduced feeding problems by the newly induced geometry. Your bottom metal should hopefully spec how far apart(pillar length) they should be, if it’s just factory then match the distance before relieving stock material so you can match it back.

The bullet under the feed ramp is common. A dremel grinding wheel gets rid of that overhang. This is looking up through an empty aics magazine showing where the interference was relieved .
View attachment 8654084

That's what I can't remeber, and I had an 11 o'clock meeting so forgot to look when I was home. I don't know if the internal box is long enough for them to hang. I think it all fits inside the action outlet so it mates with the fees lips on the action.

Putting the spring back in the follower backwards can cause a nose dive problem also.

What I am still not getting is how the action screws needed shortened but the box is now looser.

Some pictures would proabaly help.

 

[supercorndogs]

Just had a chance to run home for lunch. Notching would not do anything on my LA remington. The feed ramp does not over hang the internal box.

 

[spife7980]

Just had a chance to run home for lunch. Notching would not do anything on my LA remington. The feed ramp does not over hang the internal box.

Doesnt necessarily mean the pillars werent put into the wrong spot and induced it. Likely not but weirder things have happened. Really needs a good sit-down and just look at what its doing session.

 

[Basic user]

I'll see if I can snap some pics

 

[Wannashootit]

a pillar bed job that wasn't cut PRECISELY short enough to squeeze a LITTLE bit of the stock, but then stop there because otherwise, you'd be squeezing just the pillars, and the stock wouldnt get any tension whatsoever, and conversely, the pillars would get almost no squeeze, and the stock would take most of the tension, but would then swell and contract with the humidity, defeating the entire reason for the pillars.

SAY WHAT??

I'm....speechless...

 

[Im2bent]

That's what I can't remeber, and I had an 11 o'clock meeting so forgot to look when I was home. I don't know if the internal box is long enough for them to hang. I think it all fits inside the action outlet so it mates with the fees lips on the action.

Putting the spring back in the follower backwards can cause a nose dive problem also.

What I am still not getting is how the action screws needed shortened but the box is now looser.

Some pictures would proabaly help.

My understanding of what he described is the screws are long when assembling the box/bottom metal without the stock. He has long pillars now if that extra height is causing the feeding issue

 

[supercorndogs]

My understanding of what he described is the screws are long when assembling the box/bottom metal without the stock. He has long pillars now if that extra height is causing the feeding issue

Not out of the realm of possibility. I could read it that way.

Might be what he was trying to describe in the other post as well. If the pillars were too short in mock up. That they aren't bearing any load if they aren't contacting the action and bottom metal through the stock. And his extra space is proving that. Same set of problems if the pillars were set too high in the stock. Hopefully some pictures will help.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

You know you have to squeeze the box to fit it up into the action? Then you drop the stock onto it. If it's not all the way in the action that would make it taller requiring longer bolts possibly. Either that or it was bedded with a taller ADL mag box using a BDL floorplate? Are both rifles BDLS???

 

[Basic user]

Ok, first pic, of the bottom metal. See that little groove around the perimeter of the bottom metal. To me, that HAS to be for the mag box to sit in. I know there's supposed to be 'play', but mine doesnt sit in there. Rather, it floats around. The picture of the whole assy assembled, is how I envision it was designed to fit together. While not super tight, at least mated. The pictures of the two chambers are my options when shooting. Due to the mag box float, sometimes that semi circular cutout is right up against the bottom of the feed ramp, and sometimes it's about 3 or so mm's below it, as you can see between the pictures.
At first, I thought it was that semi circular cutout by the mouth of the mag box that was somehow interfering but now I dont think so after reading some articles. I think it's that bent area (or crease) you see right behind the semicircular cutout. You can see it on the side of the mag box in the assembled picture. They kind of kick the round out torward the center of the feed ramp a little bit, and when this mag box is too low, that crease cant do it's job and the round stays indexed all the way to the right side of the mag box, and when the bolt goes forward stripping a round from the mag, it pushes it directly into the side of the feed ramp instead of more torwards the center.
Now, I've ground down my feed ramp a little yesterday to see if that will help the problem, but now I see that it was probably the floating mag box all along.

 

[Im2bent]

So now take the same last pic with it in the stock. And one with a round in the mag