Anybody shooting a short barrel grendel?

[1slow01z71]

Considering one to swap out my 12.5 5.56 for to have a bit more ass behind it for hunting.

 

[mark5pt56]

There's a thread on AR15 with SBR data, 11.5 and 12.5, should be in AR variants section.

 

[1slow01z71]

Im banned from there since I dont believe in riding the nuts of one particular cartridge so I cant see that section.

 

[mark5pt56]

Let me see if I can find it and I will copy the part with data.

all I found--you can still look and read there-

Take an 11.5" 6.5 Grendel with the 129gr ABLR (factory load BTW) and shoot it next to a 20" .30-30 with the 150gr Hornady RN:

11.5" 6.5 Grendel with a 129gr ABLR gives you:

100yds 2066fps 1223ft-lbs
200yds 1928fps 1065ft-lbs
300yds 1796fps 924ft-lbs
400yds 1671fps 800ft-lb

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/712563_Tell-me-about-the-6-5G-SBR.html

Another

12.5" 6.5 Grendel, factory 123gr SST, 2350fps mv

300yds 1842fps 926ft-lbs
325yds 1803fps 888ft-lbs

PBZ with 200yd zero: 225yds

12.5" 6.5 Grendel, factory 129gr Nosler ABLR, 2290fps

375yds 1770fps 897ft-lbs
400yds 1738fps 865ft-lbs
800yds 1300fps 484ft-lbs. (this is the expansion threshold for ABLR, and coincides with muzzle energy of .357 Magnum, not that anyone is going to drop Bambi from 800yds with their SBR)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/712341_6-5-vs-6-8-SBR.html

 

[Crews]

I have a 12.5" 6.8 upper that is one of my favorite go-to weapons. It's light, short and handy. With a suppressor and a SLR adjustable gas block, it is a real joy to shoot. I've been making 2 moa hits at 300 yards with 120SST factory ammo, which is good enough to pop a hog out of the truck window. Could probably do better with different optics, but we all have other rifles if precision is the main objective.

I know it's not what you asked about, but judging from the info above, it's atleast close. I'll be watching this close, because I've got a 18" Grendel from Precision Firearms on order. When it arrives, I'll likely switch to the same round for my SBR.

 

[1slow01z71]

Been down the 12.5 6.8 road, killed a ton of stuff with it but the crappy brass and stocking completely different reloading components made me ditch it.

 

[Yondering]

Im banned from there since I dont believe in riding the nuts of one particular cartridge so I cant see that section.

LOL I hear that, good for you.

I'm relatively new to the Grendel myself but recently made a pair of 12.5" 6.5 Grendel barrels from a blank for myself and another guy. I started with mine at 14" and then shortened it to 12.5" since the velocity difference wasn't worth the extra length, only 60-100 fps depending on the load. I'm pushing the 123 A-max at 2360 fps from my 12.5" just using formed 7.62x39 brass, with good case life. That's full size AK ballistics but with a much better ballistic coefficient.

These were the barrels partway done, before shortening mine and bead blasting both.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i24.photobucket.com\/albums\/c26\/zthang43\/Bang\/Misc\/IMG_4152.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Here's a little comparison I put together using this 12.5" Grendel and my 16" 5.56 Recce accuracy load. Short answer is the Grendel drops more, but outperforms the longer barrel 5.56 in wind, velocity, and energy, and stays supersonic out to almost 1,000 yd even down at 1,000 ft density altitude. Note the difference in energy too. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i24.photobucket.com\/albums\/c26\/zthang43\/Bang\/Misc\/range%20556.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i24.photobucket.com\/albums\/c26\/zthang43\/Bang\/Misc\/range%2065%20Grendel.jpg"}[/IMG2]


These are the two rifles being compared in the tables above, 16" 5.56 and 12.5" Grendel SBR:
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i24.photobucket.com\/albums\/c26\/zthang43\/Bang\/Misc\/IMG_4151.jpg"}[/IMG2]

I've also just started playing with the 243 LBC (a Grendel necked down to 6mm) which outperforms the 6.5 Grendel everywhere in longer barrels, but that's a different topic.

 

[346ci]

Been down the 12.5 6.8 road, killed a ton of stuff with it but the crappy brass and stocking completely different reloading components made me ditch it.

The Hornady, SSA, Federal, S&B or Remington brass didn't work out?

 

[FunkyTownScout]

I've got a 12.5 Lilja. No complaints at all. From all the research I did, I don't remember seeing 5.56, 300 blackout or 6.8 being much better if any at the ranges those calibers excel at. To me, 6.5 Grendel SBR is better than a jack of all trades.... it's almost a master of all.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Mind sharing the load data for getting 2360 with 123amax from a 12.5 inch barrel..?

 

[Yondering]

Mind sharing the load data for getting 2360 with 123amax from a 12.5 inch barrel..?

I'm using CFE223 powder, 31.8gr with the 123 A-Max in Fiocchi 7.62x39 brass, Win LR primer.

Work up, obviously, that's a top end load and may not be safe in your barrel. Mine is chambered with a Grendel-spec reamer, I don't know how it would act in a 264 LBC chamber.

 

[vmpglenn]

Love shooting my 11.5" Grendel. It happily eats Wolf steel cased and Hornady 123gr SSTs. Wolf is about 3-4MOA and Hornady is right around MOA.

 

[TexasEric]

I am completely ignorant about both of these two rounds. What is the cost and availability of quality factory ammo for both. I have been planning on building a complete 10.5 inch 300 blackout. I am living in an apartment, there is no space or time to reload. I don't have a 223 AR, I don't like 5.56 rounds. So it would be a complete build.
I am assuming an 11.5 in -12 in Sbr in either is more powerfull than 300 Blackout at nearly distance. Is that correct? I will be watching for this.

Second thought

Also these rounds fit into a 308 mag correct? Or in a 5.556 mag?

 

[Yondering]

Love shooting my 11.5" Grendel. It happily eats Wolf steel cased and Hornady 123gr SSTs. Wolf is about 3-4MOA and Hornady is right around MOA.

Do you know what velocity you get with Wolf in that 11.5" barrel? I got 2425 fps in a 14", and 2315 in 12.5" (the same barrel cut down).

TexasEric, the Grendel is an AR15 round, meaning it fits in 5.56-sized mags. It is best to use Grendel-specific mags though, as the case body is larger than 5.56. I use ASC stainless mags. See the pic below for a visual size comparison; 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor on the 308 Pmag on the left, and on the right 5.56 Pmag are 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and 5.56. I should have included a 300 Blk in that pic too but didn't think of it; it would have been on the 5.56 Pmag as it belongs in that size group.

It does outperform the 300 Blk at any distance, as you say, although that comes at the price of a little more blast and recoil but neither one is very bad. Cheap FMJ ammo is available from Wolf, and decent hunting or target loads are available from US manufacturers like Hornady.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Im gonna look into this cfe223 powder and im assuming this is a compressed charge? and is the round loaded to mag length.. I will admit i am skeptical because ive see so much exaggerated velocity numbers especially from short barrels like 16 to 18 inch so even more on a SBR length and a 12 inch barrel almost supersonic to 1K sounds almost bullshit. Ive even confronted BA about these numbers with handloads because his factory ammo was extremely compressed.

 

[Yondering]

I don't know who BA is, but you're welcome to plug the numbers into a ballistics calculator and figure it out for yourself. 123gr Hornady A-Max at 2360 fps, and whatever altitude and environmentals you're shooting at. Try that before you call BS on something you don't understand. You're the one who asked for the data, go figure it out for yourself next time.

As far as a compressed charge, I don't remember if it is or not, but it doesn't really matter. Compressed charges are not bad, as long as they aren't compressed to the point of pushing the bullet back out over time. Lots of loading manuals list compressed loads. Again, might be something you should learn before calling people out for stuff.

I don't see any point in a Grendel seated longer than "mag length", so yes, mine were at mag length.

 

[TexasEric]

I love the fact can use a standard AR Lower and use both these rounds. Once I SBR a lower, can I switch calibers/barrels for the for the upper correct? Plus a .30 cal Thunderbeast or Sig will fit all those rounds.

Not cheap ammo, runs about as about the same my 308 ammo. I like the additional kill ability for hunting purposes. What kind of game can these rounds take down in a 11 in-12 in sbr. At what distance?

Finally what is the difference between 6.5 creedmore and 6.5 Grendel? Never mind on that final question. Google answered the call on that one.

 

[scharfschutze762]

BA is bill alexander the inventor of the 6.5 grendel and im pretty damn certain ive burned up more 6.5 grendel especially at distance then you. And even after the fact of blowing one up and breaking two bolt heads from hot loads so yeah compressed charges do matter. I run all my test on 3 different chronos and shoot them at distance to verify true. And sir before you get all emotional you should know theres a few of us on this site that do this for a living. Im done on this subject and i advise you to shoot your gun to 1k and validate your findings instead of just punching numbers in. good luck to you

 

[Yondering]

Once I SBR a lower, can I switch calibers/barrels for the for the upper correct? ...

Not cheap ammo, runs about as about the same my 308 ammo.

Yes, you can switch uppers or barrels at will on an SBR lower.

The cheap ammo I mentioned is Wolf, it can be had online right now for ~$4.50-$5.00 per box.

 

[Yondering]

BA is bill alexander the inventor of the 6.5 grendel and im pretty damn certain ive burned up more 6.5 grendel especially at distance then you. And even after the fact of blowing one up and breaking two bolt heads from hot loads so yeah compressed charges do matter. I run all my test on 3 different chronos and shoot them at distance to verify true. And sir before you get all emotional you should know theres a few of us on this site that do this for a living. Im done on this subject and i advise you to shoot your gun to 1k and validate your findings instead of just punching numbers in. good luck to you

Sorry if I don't believe your claims of massive reloading experience, if you think compressed loads are a bad thing. You have much to learn there.

 

[TexasEric]

For the guys running shorter barrels, are you upping the twist rate to make up for the shorter barrel? What twist rate are you running, and what type of accuracy are you getting at 200-300 yards?

Deer at a 100 yards or less seem to be the limit on a 10.5 blackout SBR. What have you guys taken with your 6.5 sbr's, and at what distance?

 

[Rockfish Dave]

My velocity with a Saturn 18 inch cut 1:8.75 twist barrel with a slr adj. gas block is 2550fps with factory hornady 123gr SST ammo, measured with a magnito speed. .

Hornady amax ran 2450 and 120gr ppu hp ammo ran 2500fps.

I would be surprised if I got the velocities claimed previously

 

[ccasanova]

Alexander Arms 11" Grendel on a pistol lower I assembled from spare parts.

Check the Grendel forums for more SBR info. The Precision Firearms section has velocity #s for barrels down to 8.5" iirc.

 

[ccasanova]

With SiCo Omega it is tolerable without earpro. I'm thinking about a 5" TBAC Ultra direct thread to leave on it.

This will be for deer/hogs <200 yards. Still deciding on optics. Leaning to Vortex Razor LD 1-8x32.

 

[TexasEric]

Alexander Arms 11" Grendel on a pistol lower I assembled from spare parts.

Check the Grendel forums for more SBR info. The Precision Firearms section has velocity #s for barrels down to 8.5" iirc.

Thanks for the heads up. I have a bit of an addictive personality. So once I discover something new, I start sucking in as much knowledge as I can.

 

[1slow01z71]

The Hornady, SSA, Federal, S&B or Remington brass didn't work out?

Im not a fan of the large primer remington, ssa had just been bought out and their brass was non existent and shitty quality, hornady is soft and S&B was fairly new when I dumped my 6.8. My main reasoning though was the stocking of different powder. I use 8208 in dang near all my shooting except bulk 55 223, 6.5x47 and 6.5 SAUM. I use it in all my precision 223 loads and 308. Since the grendel likes 8208 and the brass is blue box its more up my alley. Especially with the 129gr ablr it would really work well for my needs.

 

[vmpglenn]

Do you know what velocity you get with Wolf in that 11.5" barrel? I got 2425 fps in a 14", and 2315 in 12.5" (the same barrel cut down).

I have not chrono'd the Wolf but Hornady 123gr SST goes about 2200fps.

 

[1slow01z71]

It seems handloaded grendel 12.5s can get close to 2400 with a 120 which is what my 12.5 6.8 did. I do wonder how the 129 ABLR will do at slower speeds though.

 

[346ci]

Im not a fan of the large primer remington, ssa had just been bought out and their brass was non existent and shitty quality, hornady is soft and S&B was fairly new when I dumped my 6.8. My main reasoning though was the stocking of different powder. I use 8208 in dang near all my shooting except bulk 55 223, 6.5x47 and 6.5 SAUM. I use it in all my precision 223 loads and 308. Since the grendel likes 8208 and the brass is blue box its more up my alley. Especially with the 129gr ablr it would really work well for my needs.

There was about a year of when the SSA sell/Nosler buyout happened that the brass wasn't that great, anytime before or after was fine. The 6.8 Hornady works as good as any of their 6.5 Creedmoor brass I've tried. Comparing either to Lapua is apples and oranges.

The shortest I'd cut a grendel would be 18" as mine ran well, just didn't get used much after the Creedmoor and got sold.

 

[Yondering]

It seems handloaded grendel 12.5s can get close to 2400 with a 120 which is what my 12.5 6.8 did. I do wonder how the 129 ABLR will do at slower speeds though.

Good question; I wonder if it would be too slow to bother with, or useful? I don't have any to try out, but might look into it.

Just another data point for you - I have seen several references to factory Hornady 123 Amax ammo doing ~2330 fps in a 12.5" Grendel.

 

[Primus]

The 6.8 is going to be a better short range round and the 6.5 is going to be a better long range round. 6.8 is a bit better with shorties if I recall.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The 6.8 is going to be a better short range round and the 6.5 is going to be a better long range round. 6.8 is a bit better with shorties if I recall.

Why? Provide us with some information or data to back up your statement please.

 

[Yondering]

What's this "is going to be ..." stuff? Do you have personal experience with both or not?

I've been reading that same comment for a number of years, but after messing around with this 12.5" Grendel and seeing the actual ballistics, I don't think it's true. Not that the 6.8 is a bad round at all, I just don't think there's much significant difference between it and the 6.5 Grendel in short barrels. But, I haven't hunted with short barrel versions of either one so maybe that's the difference.

 

[Primus]

Do your own research. Run loads out of a 10-12.5 inch barrel and tell me what the numbers say. You are going to get the better .BC bullets with the 6.5, but ballistics out of a SPC 2 is going to trump the 6.5G at closer ranges. Overall the 6.5G is a more versatile cartridge but that doesn't change the fact that the 6.8 SPC 2 is superior out of short barrels at shorter ranges.

 

[Yondering]

Did you read all the posts in this thread? And do you have any personal experience with this?

 

[1slow01z71]

Primus do you have any personal experience with either of these in short barrels? Your post sounds very much like all the others on the internet.

Ive owned a 12.5 6.8 that I handloaded for and best I can tell from the numbers posted by others running 12.5 grendels, there may be a whole 40fps difference. I dont even think thats completely fair though as thays comparinf my 6.8 handloads to factory 6.5g hornady loads. Not sure how much more headroom there is to gain from handloads in the grendel.

 

[LRRPF52]

I'm doing a 12" Faxon barrel build right now. Waiting on some components, but it's going to be a much smaller PDW-type blaster than a carbine or rifle.

I have an Ultra 5 TBAC 30 Titanium 7.6 ounce suppressor in jail to tip it off when it's done. I'm not really interested in shooting it much unsuppressed, but I will for chrono numbers.

Looking at the new 110gr Controlled Chaos bullet for hunting with .405 G1 BC, 1500fps expansion.

If it does what I think it will do from the 12", I'll have expansion range 4x what most people shoot medium game at in the conditions I'm at even at some of the lower altitudes in the mountains.

With max loads of CFE223, a 16" Grendel will do well over 2500fps. Same with an 18". Factory 120-123gr ammo is in the mid-high 2400fps/low 2500fps with them, like 123gr SST and 120gr Federal Fusion.

11.5"-12.5" with a 110gr on CFE223 will do 2430-2530fps. Suppressor boost adds maybe 12-25fps depending on the can.

Speed doesn't really matter than much though when you have 1500fps and .405 G1, so you can find an accuracy node even at the lower speeds and go with that.

Same with the 129gr ABLR from Nosler, which has 1300fps expansion and crazy BC of .553 G1 Litz, .282 G7. It expands instantly within the 1st inch or so on tissue, plows through animals like a beast, very quick kills on both hogs and deer.

 

[Yondering]

I was just thinking about trying that 129 AB-LR in my 12.5" Grendel. I think I should be able to get 2275-2300 fps with it, which would provide good expansion well past 500+ yards.

Edit: Got some ordered, so we'll find out. SPS has 100 ct blems for $30.

 

[TexasEric]

This is totally going to be my next build.

 

[ccasanova]

Here’s some motivation. First 2 shots to the right, next 3 after adjustment. Factory Hornady 123gr SST.

 

[lou400a]

Hornady 123gr Amax: 11.5" Sabre Defence (suppressed) - 2348.8; 17.5" Satern - 2535
AA 90gr TNT: 11.5" Sabre Defence (suppressed) - 2450; 17.5" Satern - 2733.3

These were my CED chono #'s about six feet from the muzzle. Factory loads. The 11.5" Sabre Defence was a 14.5" cut back and threaded by ADCO and Satern was sent back to them for rethread to 5/8x24.
Foot long wears a VX6 1-6 and the almost 18" LRHS 3-12

 

[newguy2k3v2]

I have a 12.5? Lilja and I get 2275 from factory 123eldm. The round count is low and it may speed up still. Gonna run through about 600rds of factory and then start reloading that brass.

 

[NewguyWithSharpEye]

does anyone have any recommendations for a 12.5 6.5 Grendel upper , complete or do it your self build list , I need any info for my current build, and I see some of you people have a clear understanding of what I may be looking for in terms of an all around rifle.

 

[jdodd]

does anyone have any recommendations for a 12.5 6.5 Grendel upper , complete or do it your self build list , I need any info for my current build, and I see some of you people have a clear understanding of what I may be looking for in terms of an all around rifle.

I would buy Ballaistic advantage barrel/bcg from granite ridge outfitters. I like the aero m4e1 uppers and raptor lt charging handle but any will work.

 

[5RWill]

Tag on this thread. I was thinking i was going to offload my 8.3" blackout upper to replace with a 10.3" but i'm starting to think i'm going to sell my SPR upper and do a 12.5" grendel. 120gr SSTs at 2300 is a hell of a combo for pigs.

PSA has a 12" carbine for $329 with BCG & Charging handle also. Which i'm skeptical of PSA but that is hella cheap. I think i'd rather get rid of my SPR upper and build but still.

 

[jda2631]

It's not 6.5 grendel, and I'm not trying to start a war between cartridges here, I just went with 6.8 SPC because I already had a 6.8 rifle, and I'm set up to reload for it. I went with a 12.5" ARP barrel. It shoots factory loaded 120 SST at 2400fps with the can, I haven't shot it over magneeto speed without the can. I was surprised how accurate it is, can hit 2moa steel targets out to 300 (as far as I have shot it, or intend to shoot it) all day long. It's perfect for what I wanted, a short handy deer/hog gun for inside 2-300. I think the grendel and 6.8 are both great in this role in short barreled hunting guns.

 

[ccasanova]

Alexander Arms has a factory SBR upper (seen here) and upper kits where you picK your own rail. I love mine. It thumps steel at 325yd. It is my primary hunting rig, replaced a bolt action .270.

 

[drewthebrave]

I think the grendel and 6.8 are both great in this role in short barreled hunting guns.

I agree. 6.8 has a little bit faster muzzle velocity, while 6.5 has a little bit better aerodynamics. Both will harvest game at longer ranges than you might expect. It's nice to have options.