Range Report Anyone bored and want to play rifle doctor...

[morganlamprecht]

Had a less than exciting find on one of the most accurate barrels ive ever had last week...now its time to fix it and have time to kill so figured id let the hide take some stabs at it...

background...was my main match rifle for 2019

6.5 Creed
Lapua brass
130 hybrids
cci450s
i believe it was a .167 fb reamer we used, cant remember but it was shorter than the saami .199

...got the barrel in April, it shot great from day 1. Took land measurements and what not when barrel was new prior to putting it on the action. I loaded up 120 rounds of a random load, zero'd, and shot a club match with it. Post match i cleaned it well, took follow up measurements and then went into load work...some pics of that below

above was at .010" off the lands, i loaded up at 41.8 verify again another day...both 5 round groups

From here i only shot this rifle in 3 more 1 day matches, and 2, 2 day matches...i cleaned/fouled before each 2 day
1 Day- South Tx in May
2 Day - New Mexico in June, put rifle in the safe til November
1 Day- South Tx in November
2 Day- NRL Finale in Dec

Before all of those matches, any shooting at 100 yds produced tiny groups and an AVG velocity of 2870-2875 fps with an ES in the 10-20 range...typical

NRL finale on day 2 had 2 different TYL racks at 650 and 850 yds...hit all the targets on both of those so from all indications, barrel was shooting great

before our south tx finale last week, i was actually going out to check some sun effects on zero, and found that my hammer had turned real "meh" lol groups were like 1" at best...i thought maybe i hadnt cleaned it well enough post NRL finale...recleaned, verified with bore scope and also clean the muzzle brake...still not good

checked velocity to see if anything was obvious...nope, AVG 2869 ES 14

I remeasured the lands and found they had gone from 2.232" (new), to 2.250". So .018" of movement over ~1000 rounds

i reloaded some more rounds and pushed the seating depth back out to my original .010" jump...still bad...

was out of time and had the south tx finale to shoot so i just rolled with it...finished 3rd and misses were 99% me, there was maybe 3-5 shots i felt like didnt hit where i expected them too, but we had some sketchy winds that caused issues for most shooters so hard to say with complete certainty...other misses were 100% me rushing/careless or missed wind calls.
Lesson - dont be afraid to take a 1moa rifle to a steel match lol

so currently...thru these ~1100 rounds, ive changed nothing for my actual load (just tested the different jump)

Also to note...action screws and scope/mounts have all be retorqued and verified...scope was also swapped for a different scope with the same results

all same lot powder, bullets, primers, brass

300 pcs of brass only fired in this barrel, fired 3-4x...didnt anneal on purpose to see when it started making a difference in sizing/shoulder bump...so far it hasnt, bump is still the same, seating still the same

talked with my smith and our potential steps were...

1) anneal the brass, recheck
2) recrown, recheck...possibly got damaged in cleaning
3) recut the chamber with longer saami reamer to clean up the throat, recheck
4) throw barrel in the trash and spin on a new one

any other ideas?

i still have about 75 bullets left from this lot to test if anyone has any ideas for checks that dont require a ton of rounds

this barrel is different that any other ive ever had...ive had others drop some speed around similar round counts, but all of them still shot well...never had one's accuracy drop off this bad while still maintaining great numbers on the chrono

thoughts? (and prayers)

 

[Milo 2.5]

I'll take one stab at it, experience from shooting 6 XC's. It has been 5 yrs since I've shot a 6.5 creed, so any recollection of freebore I used is history, not the documented kind either.
By chance is your case mouths developing donuts, and the bullet coming in contact with them? Just say you are going to check for them, do it on sized brass, not fired, because neck expansion can skew results.
It seems all things are equal on your end, the barrel has not went through a pressure dump, so I rule out barrel wear. And theoretically, should not have to chase the lands with that bullet.

 

[morganlamprecht]

just so im following...ive heard of donuts in the neck/shoulder junction, not the mouths. i will verify but i believe the boat tail/bearing surface junction is seated slightly above the neck/shoulder junction

are you suggesting the actual mouth of the case? if so, that has not been checked, but the brass was originally trimmed to 1.915" and it is kissed with a giraud every loading, if that changes anything?

agree on the rest, speeds same, forgiving bullet...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Tried without the muzzle brake or with a different one?

My thoughts would be the crown/brake.

Maybe run same brass/load through another barrel, and if it shoots not shitty, trash the barrel as it’s probably not worth the headache or second guessing.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Tried without the muzzle brake or with a different one?

My thoughts would be the crown/brake.

Maybe run same brass/load through another barrel, and if it shoots not shitty, trash the barrel as it’s probably not worth the headache or second guessing.

same brake, just cleaned it completely...didnt try shooting it with the brake off

forgot to add, i did shoot 10 rounds of Hornady 140 eld during the double checking and saw similar... ~3/4"

trashing the barrel is the easiest route for sure lol nick and i were hoping for a fix and maybe a lesson tho

 

[Milo 2.5]

just so im following...ive heard of donuts in the neck/shoulder junction, not the mouths. i will verify but i believe the boat tail/bearing surface junction is seated slightly above the neck/shoulder junction

are you suggesting the actual mouth of the case? if so, that has not been checked, but the brass was originally trimmed to 1.915" and it is kissed with a giraud every loading, if that changes anything?

agree on the rest, speeds same, forgiving bullet...

Miscommunication on my end, the area you are referring to is the only area to look.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Miscommunication on my end, the area you are referring to is the only area to look.

10-4, i will double check but im pretty sure the bearing surface is clear of that area by a good bit

 

[Milo 2.5]

Have you just chambered a rd, and extracted it using your finger to hold it in line with the chamber as to not mar the bullet on the side of the action and inspected for a carbon ring. They can bite ones ass too and not be easily detected, but I also assume you know that, lol

 

[morganlamprecht]

Have you just chambered a rd, and extracted it using your finger to hold it in line with the chamber as to not mar the bullet on the side of the action and inspected for a carbon ring. They can bite ones ass too and not be easily detected, bit I also assume you know that, lol

yes that was actually my first thought after the first cleaning post nrl finale...thought maybe i just missed some carbon, so then i cleaned again and hit with a little bore paste then bore scoped it...was shiny with a little fire cracking but nothing major i could see

couple pics from near the start of the lands...pic quality isnt great, pic of a computer screen

 

[Milo 2.5]

yes that was actually my first thought after the first cleaning post nrl finale...thought maybe i just missed some carbon, so then i cleaned again and hit with a little bore paste then bore scoped it...was shiny with a little fire cracking but nothing major i could see

couple pics from near the start of the lands...pic quality isnt great, pic of a computer screen
View attachment 7209754View attachment 7209755

That looks 30 times better than my oldest dasher did at 600rds for some unknown reason. Back the borescope up a little to the end of the neck in the chamber, I consider a carbon ring to be what builds up at that 45 deg angle of the transition from neck dia to bore. But honestly, as clean as that looks, i'm throwing spaghetti at the wall now.

 

[ubettcha]

I'd check both the carbon ring and annealing. I'd do 15 cases to check that and a good borescope to check for a ring. I had both issues using Rl26 and peterson brass in my creed. Went right back to normal after cleaning the carbon ring out. I shot some 1once fired and 5th firing brass into the same .3moa group. Sd was out on the non annealed cases so I did that then someone like that rife far more than I wanted to keep it and it's gone to a loving home

 

[morganlamprecht]

That looks 30 times better than my oldest dasher did at 600rds for some unknown reason. Back the borescope up a little to the end of the neck in the chamber, I consider a carbon ring to be what builds up at that 45 deg angle of the transition from neck dia to bore. But honestly, as clean as that looks, i'm throwing spaghetti at the wall now.

yea that area is clean also from memory, i had short video on my phone and i just snapped some stills from it, but it was only that lands area in the video

my 22 creed barrel was a disaster around the neck/throat with 600 rounds on it, no cleaning (was a setback 223 barrel that had 3500 rounds on it prior also)...and it still shot great somehow lol

 

[morganlamprecht]

I'd check both the carbon ring and annealing. I'd do 15 cases to check that and a good borescope to check for a ring. I had both issues using Rl26 and peterson brass in my creed. Went right back to normal after cleaning the carbon ring out. I shot some 1once fired and 5th firing brass into the same .3moa group. Sd was out on the non annealed cases so I did that then someone like that rife far more than I wanted to keep it and it's gone to a loving home

carbon ring has been checked, but annealing will be next step

forgot to add the original post im using h4350 just for data

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

I had a 6 Creed barrel do the same thing around 600 rounds. Checked and double checked everything and all it did was give me a headache.

I switched back to 6.5 Creedmoor and life is good again.

Not saying the 6 Creed was the issue, just that I changed barrels.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I had a 6 Creed barrel do the same thing around 600 rounds. Checked and double checked everything and all it did was give me a headache.

I switched back to 6.5 Creedmoor and life is good again.

Not saying the 6 Creed was the issue, just that I changed barrels.

yea, im hoping dumping this barrel isnt the only cure...if i get to the recrown/rechamber and it doesnt fix anything...trash pile it goes

 

[1moaoff]

If by any chance you have an index able brake and removed it to clean it that can cause harmonics issues.

Also it could be optics

 

[morganlamprecht]

If by any chance you have an index able brake and removed it to clean it that can cause harmonics issues.

Also it could be optics

the brake is indexable. brake, locking nut, and barrel have witness marks for timing. when i removed the brake to clean and reinstalled, zero was still good to go, no shift there that would indicate anything odd...dirty/loose brake was one of my first thoughts, but havent found any joy there

when i go back to test annealed brass, ill bring some extra rounds and remove the muzzle brake completely and check that as well

optics (including rings) have been swapped and tested on another rifle, good to go there. this rifle shot same with both optics, other rifle shot good with both optics

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I'll mention 2 things, just because they haven't been mentioned yet. Trash in the firing pin channel and rechecking barrel torque.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I'll mention 2 things, just because they haven't been mentioned yet. Trash in the firing pin channel and rechecking barrel torque.

ill check the bolt out and clean it

ill check barrel torque also just to be sure, although i put a decent amount of torque on it breaking the brake loose and didnt notice any turning

 

[Precision Underground]

I had this happen to a 6.5 barrel and wasted way too much time trying to figure it. I finally admitted defeat and moved on. Drives me nuts when I can’t figure something out lol.

 

[morganlamprecht]

yea same, i usually dont care what happens as long as i have a good grasp on how/why...it is what it is, at that point lol

in the past i would have tossed this thing and been on, but currently ive got other rifles to shoot if i need to and im curious to see if anything helps it get back so figured, why not

 

[RTH1800]

If velocity is good annealing will not help. Thinking crown/break or something simply went bad in the barrel.

 

[morganlamprecht]

If velocity is good annealing will not help. Thinking crown/break or something simply went bad in the barrel.

my thoughts also...ES numbers too good to be brass related in my mind

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

yea, im hoping dumping this barrel isnt the only cure...if i get to the recrown/rechamber and it doesnt fix anything...trash pile it goes

I kept the barrel. Not sure why.

I took it to a "gunsmith" who said he could borrow a bore scope and check it out. Yeah, what kind of Smith doesn't have a bore scope?

He said it was good and there was no carbon ring. I think he's an idiot.

I wouldn't waste money on a re chamber and crown job. I'd just spend that money a barrel.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Yea I wouldn’t spend money on this for sure, recrown/chamber won’t cost me anything tho so all good

Went to the range this afternoon and I may be more confused now lol

1) bearing surface is clear of the neck/shoulder junction ~.040-.045”...should be plenty clear of any possible donut?

2)checked firing pin channel and bolt, didn’t notice any real debris...cleaned and wiped it out also

3) checked barrel torque, checked good, torqued to 80 ft lbs again

4) annealed brass
Note1: shoulders bumped ~.001” more, previous number was x.557-.558...all annealed brass bumped to x.556-.557, dies weren’t adjusted at all....556-.557 is .002-.003 bump vs fired brass

Note2: seating die also not adjusted...seated bullets ~.002” deeper than previous non-annealed brass

at the range saw the following

first group...

removed the muzzle brake...forgot to reset the labradar to a fresh strbut numbers were basically same

put the brake back on, shot 5 more...

First thing I noticed was I picked up 15-20 fps from annealing

groups almost want to tell me something is loose? Random shots being out in the same direction seems weird... But the no brake groups with more recoil, had similar shape but much larger...idk what to make of it, if anything

even weirder is these groups seem to have a common theme, but don’t resemble any of the groups shot previously when the issues first came about

not sure what to make of it...but smith wants to recrown it tomorrow and knock off step 1 from above

Any thoughts? Typed this on my phone so harder to proof, hopefully didn’t butcher anything too bad

 

[Deleted member 113831]

It would be intersting to slug it and measure the depth of the lands and grooves.

 

[rgv]

Last year I had a 308 barrel do the same thing at around 2200-2400 rounds.

The barrel shot 3 shot groups into one hole right from the start and for the next few months, but suddenly after a field match I shot a couple groups with the same ammo to check zero and it was a 1” to 1-1/4” inch gu .

I tried everything including cutting the muzzle threads off and recrowning but nothing changed. Nice round +1” groups.

screwed it onto a different action, scope, and chassis and fired some Federal GMM and it is forever a solid +1 MOA barrel.

The only thing that I can think of is that the field match before it went south was in heavy rain and I wrecked a couple dozen cases out of 200 including 6-8 that had bad.y blown primers. I suspect I may have ringed the barrel but nothing is evident with a tight patch or a borescope.

 

[morganlamprecht]

It would be intersting to slug it and measure the depth of the lands and grooves.

I have the stuff at the shop to slug it although my slugging ventures in the past pointed more to my lack of what I was looking for more than anything...I’m not sure if what I would get out of the barrel would be accurate/precise enough to show anything of value

 

[morganlamprecht]

Last year I had a 308 barrel do the same thing at around 2200-2400 rounds.

The barrel shot 3 shot groups into one hole right from the start and for the next few months, but suddenly after a field match I shot a couple groups with the same ammo to check zero and it was a 1” to 1-1/4” inch gu .

I tried everything including cutting the muzzle threads off and recrowning but nothing changed. Nice round +1” groups.

screwed it onto a different action, scope, and chassis and fired some Federal GMM and it is forever a solid +1 MOA barrel.

The only thing that I can think of is that the field match before it went south was in heavy rain and I wrecked a couple dozen cases out of 200 including 6-8 that had bad.y blown primers. I suspect I may have ringed the barrel but nothing is evident with a tight patch or a borescope.

interesting...it rained in NM and also at the nrl finale...I didn’t have any toasted cases tho running 130s @ 2870 is fairly mild

 

[RTH1800]

Did you check a case or two for runout? Primer pockets tight? Rain water could have caused overpressure event.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Did you check a case or two for runout? Primer pockets tight? Rain water could have caused overpressure event.

don’t have a runout gauge here handy, I can get one from a buddy tho

pockets all good on what I reloaded, no swipes or indications of pressure during any shooting...do my best to keep bolt forward when not shooting and rounds dry as possible

 

[RTH1800]

Thanks, doubt it’s in the chamber then. Possibly near muzzle. Could be so slight it will never be detected.
might be interesting to simply cut to 16.5” and try just for experiment if you give up on it.
Thanks for sharing,

 

[Precision Underground]

For the hell of it I would try some new brass. Things definitely changed when you annealed. It went from totally random to two good groups with some obvious flyers. That could just be chance but it looks like annealing made some of them go back to normal and others not.

You said you tried new rings and optic, did you try a new base? Keep us filled in I have to know what it is now lol.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Do you have any factory ammo to try out?

I tried three different loads when my barrel started acting funny and all three shot like shit.

 

[Timo Turl]

Damaged bipod...presume not, just trying to eliminate the obvious.

What is the neck thickness on your brass ?

 

[morganlamprecht]

For the hell of it I would try some new brass. Things definitely changed when you annealed. It went from totally random to two good groups with some obvious flyers. That could just be chance but it looks like annealing made some of them go back to normal and others not.

You said you tried new rings and optic, did you try a new base? Keep us filled in I have to know what it is now lol.

i dont have any new brass to try without ordering some, but i did try some hornady brass with 140 eld's for 10 rounds last time out...it basically shot 1 group similar to before (~1moa), then another group that looked like this except the flyer was .2 high instead of left

action is an impact so an integral base there...speaking of that, last week, a buddy of mine had a friend who kept complaining his gen 2 razor wouldnt hold zero on his 300norma, we took it out and tested it on one of my rifles, worked perfect...hit it with a rubber mallet, still perfect...gave it back to him, he tried again "its still broke! cant hold up to 300norma recoil!"...so my buddy picked up the whole rifle this time, goes to remove the scope to remount every thing...entire scope base slides back and forth lol dang vortex! (sarc)

 

[morganlamprecht]

Do you have any factory ammo to try out?

I tried three different loads when my barrel started acting funny and all three shot like shit.

see above, not factory, but its what i load to duplicate factory for testing random rifles and gas guns...41.5 gr of h4350, 140 eld @ 2.810, usually 2700-2750 fps from 24" barrels and rarely shoots worse that 3/4" from anything

didnt shoot it any better tho similar to yours

 

[morganlamprecht]

Damaged bipod...presume not, just trying to eliminate the obvious.

What is the neck thickness on your brass ?

bipod should be ok, its an atlas psr thats still nice and tight, i can swap it out with another tho just to see

ill have to check the brass later when im home, but i think a loaded round measures .291-.292 iirc, should have .004-.005 clearance on the neck based on the reamer spec

 

[Precision Underground]

i dont have any new brass to try without ordering some, but i did try some hornady brass with 140 eld's for 10 rounds last time out...it basically shot 1 group similar to before (~1moa), then another group that looked like this except the flyer was .2 high instead of left

action is an impact so an integral base there...speaking of that, last week, a buddy of mine had a friend who kept complaining his gen 2 razor wouldnt hold zero on his 300norma, we took it out and tested it on one of my rifles, worked perfect...hit it with a rubber mallet, still perfect...gave it back to him, he tried again "its still broke! cant hold up to 300norma recoil!"...so my buddy picked up the whole rifle this time, goes to remove the scope to remount every thing...entire scope base slides back and forth lol dang vortex! (sarc)

Ehh. To me that still doesn’t close the book on the brass. Totally different bullet and load is hard to eliminate the original brass as the culprit. I’ve learned that when chasing your tail you should always be as thorough as possible lmao. I would at least do some of your usual 130s in some different brass even if it’s a different brand. If your jump is the same the different brass shouldn’t make that much difference by looking at your original load work up. It will at least give you more data to look at.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Ehh. To me that still doesn’t close the book on the brass. Totally different bullet and load is hard to eliminate the original brass as the culprit. I’ve learned that when chasing your tail you should always be as thorough as possible lmao. I would at least do some of your usual 130s in some different brass even if it’s a different brand. If your jump is the same the different brass shouldn’t make that much difference by looking at your original load work up. It will at least give you more data to look at.

i can load some 130s up in hornady brass next trip and try them out

and yea, during load work up every charge i shot was acceptable...even where i didnt pick to reload was better than its been the last couple trips lol

 

[6/250/40]

Tagged to follow........

 

[RTH1800]

If you primer pockets are tight, your brass and ammo rolls round and it's not overlength, which I am near certain you will find all is well, it's not the brass.

 

[Precision Underground]

If you primer pockets are tight, your brass and ammo rolls round and it's not overlength, which I am near certain you will find all is well, it's not the brass.

Likely the case but it takes 5 minutes to load a few and make sure so why not.

 

[RTH1800]

My final theory on what happened.

Rimfire shooters like to have their barrels "choke bored." They try to put in a couple of tenths at the muzzle. Certainly under .0005

I think you got water in your muzzle. Upon shooting you hydraulically expanded the bore. It may or may not be determined by slugging, air gauging etc. In effect you are shooting a blunderbuss.

If you cut it off and happen to be behind the area of expansion which is quite likely, accuracy will return to pre damage levels.

 

[Precision Underground]

My final theory on what happened.

Rimfire shooters like to have their barrels "choke bored." They try to put in a couple of tenths at the muzzle. Certainly under .0005

I think you got water in your muzzle. Upon shooting you hydraulically expanded the bore. It may or may not be determined by slugging, air gauging etc. In effect you are shooting a blunderbuss.

If you cut it off and happen to be behind the area of expansion which is quite likely, accuracy will return to pre damage levels.

I was thinking something along this line for the one I ended up trashing. Maybe some stress popped loose at the muzzle or something with some water as you said. Although I would think water would either vaporize out the barrel or deform the soft bullet before hurting the bore. Maybe water plus some stress release at the muzzle equals minor deformation.
It’s funny, now that I typed that I remember I had my muzzle threaded before mine did this. It shot well for 400-500 rounds and then went to hell. I figured since it shot well for that many rounds it couldn’t be the threading. Maybe cutting the threads allowed the bore at the end to expand a small amount over time or maybe due to moisture/pressure. I can’t remember if I shot in the rain before it happened.

 

[kthomas]

My final theory on what happened.

Rimfire shooters like to have their barrels "choke bored." They try to put in a couple of tenths at the muzzle. Certainly under .0005

I think you got water in your muzzle. Upon shooting you hydraulically expanded the bore. It may or may not be determined by slugging, air gauging etc. In effect you are shooting a blunderbuss.

If you cut it off and happen to be behind the area of expansion which is quite likely, accuracy will return to pre damage levels.

This is an interesting theory, one I haven't heard of happening before with rifles, but I can totally believe it. Water being an incompressible fluid would not play well at all in a very tight clearance structure combined with a lot of pressure. Somethings gotta give, and if won't be the water.

Makes total sense, and definitely would explain the groups being seen.

 

[morganlamprecht]

question then gets to...

how much to cut off? Originally we had planned to just recut the crown enough to clean it up but leave the threads as is

1/4", 1/2"...1"?

 

[RTH1800]

Depends. Cut threads for sure. How long is it now?
2” would be a good bet if length permits it.
see if you can feel it with slug or tight patch.

 

[morganlamprecht]

my 22 creed barrel was a disaster around the neck/throat with 600 rounds on it, no cleaning (was a setback 223 barrel that had 3500 rounds on it prior also)...and it still shot great somehow lol

interesting note about this 223 barrel i mentioned earlier

it was a 1:8 shilen, started off a 26" 223rem...i put ~3500 rounds thru it, usually fired very rapid by multiple shooters, wasnt babied at all...velocity originally started at 2840 fps and when i pulled it off, it was down to 2720 fps

it got set back 4" to a 22" 22 Creed...the load i had with it started at 3350 fps...over the next ~600 rounds it had dropped off to 3200 fps...again, this thing was shot hard with no regard for the barrel life...the last 10 rounds shot from it, 2 of my buddies went 9/10 on a 66% ipsc at 980 yds seated from a tripod, still shot well

i pulled it off at that point and gave it to my smith who wanted to check it out and maybe toy with a 22 creed, this was over a year ago...

ran into another buddy at the range yesterday who said he got that barrel from the shop "old barrel" pile and had it set back to an 18" 223 for his bighorn and it still shoots 1/2" consistently at 100 yds lol that thing wont die

 

[morganlamprecht]

Depends. Cut threads for sure. How long is it now?
2” would be a good bet if length permits it.
see if you can feel it with slug or tight patch.

its 24" now...ill try to push a patch see how it feels

like i mentioned up above with slugging, ive done it on a few barrels, but what i felt, i had no real way to gauge good or bad...one barrel that shot great felt loose at the muzzle, another felt tight lol i didnt know what to make the differences i felt