Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

[Shocktroop0351]

Basically, I have the opportunity to purchase one of their "Diamond" memberships through another "Diamond" member for $125. Has anyone else done the same thing I'm thinking of doing and was it all that it seems to be? I wouldn't consider myself a novice shooter so I'm more interested in the advanced courses, although brushing up on the basics is always good too. I tried looking at their website but it is a bit confusing and I couldn't find where it discusses these types of memberships. I'm just having a hard time grasping the fact that I can go to all of their classes for $125 plus a $50/year background check fee. Thanks for any input.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Use a lot of caution. There seems to be no middle ground on this place. You will hear Ponzi scheme, great place, Scientology, got a free XD pistol, lawsuits over the land etc. etc. etc. You better do your research before you jump

 

[USACS]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I have never been there, but I have talked extensively with people who have gone there or instructed there. Based on what they have said to me, I have made the decision that I will never go there.

Edited for length, here are the main issues I have heard about:

-It's the COSTCO of shooting academies. They thrive on volume sales to students
-Instruction is very limited in scope to what they want you to learn. Their way "THE way" instead of "A way".
-Lots of instructor turn over due to discontent within the business
-Instruction is completely scripted, to include the jokes the instructors have to tell
-Numerous instructors that are unqualified
-Instructors that leave FS have had difficulty getting hired elsewhere due to bad reputation of FS in certain circles
-Gimmicky business model and member perks
-Overly excessive advertising
-Testimonials from a showgirl, a 12yr old, a couple dozen soccer moms, Hollywood actors, old ladies...
-A connection to Scientology (present in some of their training)


Also, there's the fact that Dr. Ignatius Piazza is probably going to sue me for typing this. He has a track record of suing people, which is actually a tactic often used by people of his "sort". There are some interesting articles online written by people who have had experience with Piazza, and a lot of it is pretty ugly.

After all of that, then you start looking into the place and you start finding things that bring up warning bells. Then you go checking out their website, and you find this:
http://www.frontsight.com/FrontSightNevada/family-safety-training.asp
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Front Sight Resort is Even Building a New Master-Planned Community for Its Students.</span>
Yes, Front Sight Resort is building a master-planned community encompassing the resort for the exclusive use of its students. Appropriately named the township of Front Sight, and dubbed "The Safest Town In America", this gated community, when completed, will provide 177 one-acre luxury home sites, 350 condominiums, a commercial center, a community center, a private K-12 school, all municipal services, and even a 5,000 foot air strip. Front Sight Resort definitely takes care of our student's needs for present and future training. </div></div>

^^Tell me that doesn't scream "Branch Davidian Compound in Waco Texas"... Give it 10 years and the BATFE, DEA, FBI and National Guard will be on a month long standoff out there.

 

[sil9mm]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I decided not to go because of the mass marketing. I received their dvd 2 years ago. I still get phone calls and emails daily even though I requested not to receive them. Even moved them to spam folder. Reminds me of old school AOL. You just can't get rid of it. LOL

 

[acespeedy]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Just look over their safety record, makes you wonder.

http://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5

 

[USACS]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sil9mm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I decided not to go because of the mass marketing. I received their dvd 2 years ago. I still get phone calls and emails daily even though I requested not to receive them. Even moved them to spam folder. Reminds me of old school AOL. You just can't get rid of it. LOL </div></div>
Everybody I've talked to who has registered or signed up for anything with them has regretted it. SPAM SPAM SPAM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acespeedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just look over their safety record, makes you wonder.

http://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5</div></div>
And those are the ones we know about.

They blame it on the student or the equipment. Both are correct in that, but it's also a matter of improper supervision and instruction from what I have heard. One guy I talked to recently went to a 2 Day handgun course and the guy next to him on the line was by himself and had an XD and goes "how do I work this thing?" as he's pointing the gun down the line.
The guy I talked to noted that the shooting instruction was pretty general and hard to miff up, but the supervision and oversight was terrible. Most of the instructors did not have the training or mindset to be constantly monitoring the actions of everyone on the line to prevent safety violations.
Stuff like that makes me miss the good old days of a Drill Sergeant whacking you in the head with a range paddle.

 

[Shocktroop0351]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Hey guys, thanks for the input. It seems like there is so many mixed feelings and experiences about this place. Even though I too have my doubts, I think for the price I will try it out. And considering I'll be able to go with a friend or two I figure the worst that could happen is we have fun shooting. And if I learn something along the way then I would say it was money well spent. Thanks again for all the input.

 

[was21]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Keep your hand on your wallet while you are there...he-he!

 

[bchibb]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Spam, non stop phone calls!!!!!!!!!

 

[elephantrider]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Everything about that place seems gimmicky.

- Screwy pricing that is just intended to draw in more and more friends and family. Pyramid scheme?
- People constanly trying to sell their training memberships and vouchers on gun borads. Eventually the FS Owner will threaten the board Owner into banning this practice.
- Free XDs. What is Front Sight's stake in pushing the XD?
- An owner who calls himself "doctor" despite not having a Phd or equivalent degree.
- A lot of courses that sound and look dated. Uzi training anyone?
- Plus the fact that they offer training on just about anything and everything. I seriously doubt they are, or have experts in all the training domains that they list. Who are their instructors?

I will be staying far, far away.

Oh, and I forgt to mention the $500 Glock armorer course. I would not trust any business that charges me $500 for what is at most a $200 course.

 

[Tomcat]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I've been there twice. Good training for beginners, familys, father and son weekends, father and daughter time, ... that sort of thing.
Very programmed, very follow the leader, very instructor oriented. Not for those who already know a few things, have had prior training, or who want higher speed training.
Also, there is a heavy push there to contribute and buy lifetime memberships, which if you live nearby, may not be a bad deal.
All in all, good for those new to shooting and who want a comprehensive training regime designed to bring you to a specific level of competency.
Not good for those who want to see how good they can be.

Recommed for those new to shooting in general.

Not recomended for those who want see how good they can be.

I liked it, both times, and it is still good training. I took their handgun courses.

PM me for more info.

 

[350ss]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I went to FS for the first time last spring and took the four day tactical shotgun course. I will say, it is more of a volume kind of deal compared to some more facilities that are offered but I still thought you gained a fair amount of knowledge while there. Yes, you do get endless emails and calls but that's why I have junk email accounts and they're not the only company that does it... As for the couses and instructors, I thought they were both good. I didn't see anything that made me feel uncomfortable or unsafe for the four days I was there. We had two to three instructors on the range everyday and that was for approx 30 students. The way they run their courses it's more of a shooter/instructor deal where you are partnered up and they teach and show you, then you shoot while helping and watching your partner... For the record I have been to Gun Site as well for a course. I will say that I enjoyed it better because of the more one on one instruction and more of a drill type atmosphere. Most of their courses max out at like 15 people I belive with two to three instructors. You're on the range for eight hours a day and it's non stop technique. Drill. Drill. Drill. Front sight, you still get the same sort of information but just not as much time or practice with each technique. Overall, for anyone that is just learning to shoot or looking to get away for a weekend with some friends or family Front Sight would be a great place to go. I mean anytime you can learn some new techniques or handle a weapon to gain confidence and handling, what can it hurt? The same goes for firing several hundred rounds. The important thing is that everyone is careful and everyone is responsible for themselves and everyone around them. There is complacincy no matter where you go or what you do so everyone is on the lookout and can speak up and cease fire on the range at anytime they feel there is a reason to do so. That goes for both places I have been. That's the way it should be too. As for the cult like community planned, I do feel that is a little weird as well but I don't plan on living there and I reside in IN so I have no immediate concerns. I will say though, once you go and try it out, you'll definetly go again. Even if it's just for the price itself, you just can't beat it for the practice! One week at GS costs you about $1,500 per class vs. unlimited classes for a lifetime membership at FS... What I tend to do is try to go to GS once every other year or so when I can afford it and then FS as much as I can before this gig is up. If anyone as any specific questions about either place, feel free to PM me.

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

So alot of people that have never been are questioning/bad mouthing the place, but the one person that I read had been has decent/good experience. I can't say because I've never been. I did buy some books, if you want to call them that, from the place via the internet. Books were pretty decent, on handgun, rifle, edged weapon defense, and hand to hand combat, etc. I can attest that they send out alot of emails and junk mail. The things they preach sound good and the price for the membership is good enough, but the way I look at it is, how many times am I going to Vegas or Nevada to be able to benefit from the membership? I've been to Vegas twice and don't have any plans of going back any time soon. I have USSA in Tulsa that's only a couple hour drive for me, so it would most likely be my choice for any training. I get alot of shooting time in every year, LEO and SWAT team member, so that's not to big of deal. My biggest concerns in getting training would be what the context of the training was, I mean obviously I don't need to pay for a beginners course, at least I better not, and I'm always willing to learn new techniques, whether I use them or not, so if all I'm looking for is a fun place to shoot and an instructor to tell me, maybe, if I'm doing something wrong, I'm not going to fly 3hrs to get it! I'm by no means a professional shooter or instructor, but I'm pretty darn good with pistol, carbine, or rifle, so it's gonna have to be pretty dang good training, by pretty dang good instructors, before I'm gonna be willing to travel that far and pay for training or a range session. I'm not trying to tell you not to do it, but I would look at what you would benefit the most from and where you would best obtain that training from before I spent my money on it. Unless money grows on trees for you then hey go everywhere you can and then go back to the good places several times! Good luck with your decision, Jason

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I will admit I was a trainer (shotgun, tactical carbine, LE carbine, precision rifle) for him when he was located at 5 dogs range outside of bakersfield in late 1990's. I came from an LE background and there were plenty of red flags in some of the training. The mechanics, ie drawstroke, movement, manipulations etc. were all fine but the practicality of tactics in the real world were questionable at best. I still recall him saying that in public he does not allow anyone to get within 10 feet of him and how he has his kids trained to look for threats while in the car, it just seemed a bit over the top. The guy promotes living in a state of awareness that would exhaust the average person very quickly.

He loved giving himself the title of "combat master" which was all based on some older Chuck Taylor certifications and most of his mechanics were blatant copies of Taylor, Ayoob or Suarez stuff. Also he asked to be called Dr. because he is a doctor of chiropractic, he really likes it when you point out he is not a real doctor.

I will admit I appreciate his ability to mass market to a lot of new shooters but I think once you get past the basics do not expect to get a lot out of the class. If your looking for some weekend fun with buddies and a high round count it might be exactly what your looking for without paying $1000 for a week of training at some of the other schools.

 

[Nimzoblanca]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Wow. A lot of misinformation on this thread, and predictably from people who have never been there.

I’ve taken over 30 classes at FS over the last 7 years. Started out with beginner classes and moved up to all their advanced curriculum. So I speak from experience, not from reading rumors and hearsay on the internet. First to address some of the incorrect/inaccurate info posted earlier:

1) There is NO association with Scientology, nor any religion for that matter. All that you hear at FS are lectures and training on usage of firearms. It continues to amaze me that people keep bringing up the Scientology word, as if the entire facility is nothing more than a group of religious fanatics. Nothing could be further from the truth. In all my visits there I’ve never heard Scientology mentioned once. That said, is the founder Piazza a Scientologist? Maybe. Probably. Who cares? He definitely had the connection in years past, and it’s my understanding he doesn’t practice it anymore. Ask me if I care. I’ve met and talked with him and he never mentioned or pushed it on me. I just care about the firearms instruction and none of the instructors, to my knowledge, has anything to do with Scientology, much less mention it. So please stop spreading this BS about FS being connected to Scientology, it simply isn’t true.

2) “Instruction is limited and scripted”. Utter BS. Yes they have a set curriculum for the beginner classes, and every instructor is expected to teach it exactly as prescribed. But let’s put this in context. If you’re running 10 ranges with 40 students each, you need to ensure that each student is getting the exact same instruction. It’s called a consistent, repeatable process. Very important since they give everyone a skills test at the end of each class – pass the test and you’ve met the prerequisite for advanced classes. Don’t pass and you don’t get into the advanced stuff. It needs to be consistent. I’ve had classes at other schools where the quality of the instruction was entirely dependent on the whim (and ego) of the instructor. With good instructors you learn a lot. With bad instructors you learn nothing (other than their “war stories”). If I’m going to burn precious vacation days, time and money traveling to a firearms training school, I’d like to know that I’m going to get quality instruction with ANY of their staff.

Now then, the set curriculum is only with the beginner classes. When you get into the advanced classes, everything changes. The curriculum is not set, and the instructors (and students) have A LOT of leeway in how the class is run. And there’s lots of replay value. Some advanced classes I’ve taken 3 or 4 times and each time was a totally different learning experience.

3) “Numerous unqualified instructors”. Again, utter BS. I’ve met and trained with dozens of the instructors, and I’ve yet to meet one who wasn’t qualified. There might be a few whose personality rubs me the wrong way, but that doesn’t mean they’re not qualified. The selection and hiring process is quite involved.

4) People claim that the techniques taught are mandatory, i.e. you have to do everything the FS way, even if you’ve learned a different way. Well… yes and no. They don’t force you to do everything their way. They ask (strongly suggest?) that you TRY it their way. If you don’t like it and want to do it the way you’ve learned and practiced from before, then go for it. As long as you don’t do any safety violations, it shouldn’t be a problem. When I took my first handgun class, I already had a lot of training under my belt (from Gunsite). The FS methods were different. As my instructor was going over the differences in our methods, I looked him in the eye and asked him if he was ordering me not to do it my way. His response was no, he was only asking that I keep an open mind and TRY it their way to see if it worked better for me. I have no issues with that.

Keep in mind the FS business model. Their mission is to cater to the masses of gunowners. That means training a bunch of people that own guns but have no clue in things like gun safety, proper gun handling and basics of marksmanship. Hence they have to frame their curriculum, primarily the beginner classes, accordingly. They also want a family-friendly environment, hence no boot-camp mentality. If you want a high-speed, low-drag boot-camp class, there’s plenty of options out there (Suarez comes to mind). But that doesn’t mean FS is wrong or bad, it’s just the way they chose to model their business. And again, once you get past the beginner stuff, the advanced classes raise the bar quite a bit. You better be in good physical shape if you take one.

It’s not all rosy. I get just as disgusted with Piazza’s marketing tactics and endless emails as the next person. But it doesn’t keep me from taking classes. Email SPAM? That’s why we have junk-mail filters.

I keep going back to FS because of the price-performance of their classes. Get past the beginner classes, qualify for all their advanced classes, and you’ll get a ton of high-end training that would be hard if not impossible to get, at that price point, for a civilian. (I’m not LEO or military) I find that many people deriding FS either haven’t been there, or took 1 or 2 classes and didn’t do well on the skills tests. It’s easy to bad-mouth a school when you can’t pass their qualifying tests for advanced classes.

 

[SigTauJohn]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I went 2 springs ago with my father. Both of us are good shooters but still learned a hell of a lot in the 2 day handgun course. It was very programmed more toward people who have little experience in shooting and self defense in general but it was still good. I believe if everyone with a concealed carry took this course it would be a huge benefit. Learned a lot of good technique. I would like to go again for a shotgun course but it is much to far away. Will take a class close to home. Im sure there are better places but it was not a bad place to go. If you can make it there and have a place to stay then go ahead and grab a cheap certificate for a course and go. You wont be disappointed.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I am not going to say boo about their abilities to instruct because I have no experience with their classes, those seem about par with others. The have a pretty large membership following, and repeat customers, so they can't be doing a whole lot wrong. Like anywhere else, the more you pay, the more you get.

However, for those who are getting spammed and constantly contacted, here is the best method to be left alone, and, for the most part, black listed. Just ask for a job. They will say they will hire you, tell you what uniforms to buy, then after their 2 month summer break, the WILL avoid ALL contact with you. They wont even tell you you dont have the job. You will get the corporate run-around, and never spoken to again.

 

[lrkcs332]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I have never personally been to any of their courses, but I have a buddy that says they are great. He and his dad have been to several of their handgun courses and says they learn more and more each time they go.

 

[minnesotadan]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

I agree 100% with the post of Nimzoblanca. My wife and I are first family members, I have a Diamond Membership. I am invested about 4K for our memberships. I have taken 20 plus classes and my wife 4 classes. Most classes were 4 day classes. Having said that over 800 hours of training for 4K is a pretty good deal. On a given week end one can expect 400 to 800 students, more than most instructional places perform in a year.
The introductory classes are well received by the new students. I expected my wife to last 4 hours in her class she lasted all 4 days and has asked to go back 3 more times. I suspect the Rambo want to be may not like "basic classes". Once these basic classes are mastered a whole new area of shooting and instruction is opened up for the shooter. I am certain many people can attest how an inexperienced shooter can slow down an advanced class. I would venture a guess one would need to be an IPSC A Class shooter to obtain a Distinguished Graduate Satus in the introductory pistol class. Most C or D class shooters will pass the class. I do not hear many people complaining about there classification in IPSC, it is what it is. So why if someone goes to a shooting school and does not pass the class blames ths school?
I just finished the Precision Rifle class at FS, I was totally pleased with the class. I will typically shoot High Master scores in NRA rifle events I did learn things. Did I learn how to crawl around with camo on and snipe targets, NO To pass this class one just needs to be a 1 MOA shooter, no big deal. The entry criteria for the class was to DG the practical rifle class, mostly AR type shooters. For many students this was an introductroy class for Long Range Shooting. The class was slowed down somewhat with new long range shooters not having the proper equipment. Now many of them know what to get.
The instructor, Ken was well informed and shoot LRT Matches. What a nice experience having a person with that caliber spend 4 days with 16 students sharring his knowledge-------I liked it.

I also shoot LRT maches and I find that I learn better with my ears as opposed to my mouth. I listen and learn, who could complain about 250 or so round count with targets from 100 to 600yards, a fun 4 days.
Dan

 

[123xyz]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheWolfe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There wasn't enough time to properly zero rifles at 50 yards. Even without zeroed rifles, students were then expected to shoot at 200 yards. There is really no point in wasting the ammunition or time to shoot at 200 yards if you already know at 50 yards that you don't have a good zero. </div></div>

I have taken this two-day practical rifle class at Front Sight. I have also taken the four-day practical rifle class (eight times).

For an acceptable battle zero (not a sniper zero) for an AR15, there is enough opportunity to zero. The student gets a minimum of three (3) opportunities to shoot three (3) shot groups off of sandbags (prone) at fifty (50) yards. Suitable instruction is given for how to execute the 3-shot group. After each 3-shot group, the student checks the target and gets the opportunity to adjust sights before shooting the next group. I have found that the instructors were/are always willing and able to help in adjusting the sights. If the student cannot get a suitable battle zero at Front Sight in the two-day rifle class, then it would not be the school's fault.

I enjoy taking classes at Front Sight and plan to take many more.

 

[123xyz]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

You wrote: "I had the wrong sight adjustment tool, but didn't realize it until I needed it during the course. Since I had to adjust my sight quickly and no one was around to offer assistance, I was adjusting my front sight using a knife blade to depress the detent."

And later you wrote: "I had a perfectly good zero (I am a former marksmanship instructor) and was directly told to adjust it, for no good reason."

Er, a little inconsistency there?

 

[123xyz]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

You wrote: "I notice that you also picked the weakest of my issues to discuss, not many of the more serious issues that I brought up."

Your other issues are based on hearsay evidence or personal opinion. I have no issue with you expressing your personal opinions and feel no need to argue about them.

The issue of zeroing could be dealt with on a factual basis and I did so. I described the zeroing process and folks can, on their own, decide whether it was adequate or not.

 

[Nimzoblanca]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Hmmm. TheWolfe makes his first 2 posts on this forum in this thread, deriding Front Sight, and gets caught in a contradiction. Then his posts magically disappear. I smell a rat.

 

[Guest]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

There is no rat.

I simply don't feel like arguing with a bunch of the Frontsight fan base.

There was no contradiction in what I said, but someone that doesn't understand the situation promptly started claiming that there was. I remembered why I don't like internet forums, as when you can hide behind a screen it is very easy to call names, when in person, my experience and record would speak for themselves.

I've simply determined that I'm not willing to waste a bunch of time, and have baseless criticism leveled at me. I also have to be very careful what I say on an internet forum, due to concern that I will be sued by Frontsight.

 

[123xyz]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shocktroop0351</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys, thanks for the input. It seems like there is so many mixed feelings and experiences about this place. Even though I too have my doubts, I think for the price I will try it out. And considering I'll be able to go with a friend or two I figure the worst that could happen is we have fun shooting. And if I learn something along the way then I would say it was money well spent. Thanks again for all the input. </div></div>

I do not believe you have/had much to lose at $125 for a Diamond membership. My observation is that most people enjoy their training experiences at Front Sight. It would be interesting to read about your experience after taking a class there - perhaps you could add a reply to this thread describing your Front Sight training experiences.

NOTE: <span style="font-weight: bold">"What Every Gun Owner Should Know Before Attending a Firearms Training Course"</span>:
http://www.frontsight.com/student-prep-manual.asp

 

[Zebra644]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

Isnt there a genelteman named LeBoufe?? was nick named Long Rifle former Army Ranger. He took out an insurgent on a moving gun truck at like 1100 meters or such. Does he or did he work thier?

 

[123xyz]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isnt there a genelteman named LeBoufe?? was nick named Long Rifle former Army Ranger. He took out an insurgent on a moving gun truck at like 1100 meters or such. Does he or did he work thier? </div></div>

Cannot answer your question, however, there is a fellow named Ryan LeBoeuf who apparently shot in the Barrett Mammoth Sniper Challenge:
http://www.mammothsniperchallenge.com/history/2011-winter/match.html

 

[Zebra644]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

It is Joe LeBleu sorry. I believe he went there in 2006.

 

[123xyz]

Re: Anyone familiar with Front Sight Nevada?

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLateBoyScout?feature=watch#p/u/5/WJuXv6ak2iA

Check out the link. It's the first of 4 videos describing the experience of a guy who took the 4-day defensive handgun class.