Rifle Scopes Anyone gone back to a non-christmas tree reticle?

[C_R_Slacker]

I'm looking to sell off some stuff soon to help fund upgrading my NXS 5.5-22. I'm in the process of making my short list of candidates. Everyone says once you get into top tier glass, it just comes down to reticle and specific features. That being said, I think I want a simple tree reticle, aka, not a horus.

Has anyone tried a tree reticle and gone back to something more traditional? Are there any cons with the tree reticles that may outweight the pros? I haven't shot any competitions yet, but I may try some smaller matches in the future. When on the clock, is holding with the tree really that much faster than just dialing elevation and holding wind? Does the added clutter of the tree ever hinder seeing bullet splash on misses?

I was listening to the latest Everyday Sniper podcast and Frank was talking about reticles some. What he said got me thinking more about it. Just wondering if anyone else had thoughts about it.

 

[Stag556]

I went from an EBR-2C, SKMR3, Tremor3 to now owning a Mil C. I love the Mil C and won’t be changing any longer. Does everything I need it to do.

 

[Fig]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/nightforce-christmas-tree-mil-c-reticle.6881028/

 

[Covertnoob5]

I’ve had a bunch of trees, Horus, and more traditional rets. Right now I’ve got a T3 and recently a mil dot gen 2. It’s a breath of fresh air from the T3, that being said there are some stages where you aren’t allowed to dial so that’s where the trees shine.
I wish NF or TT would go with a decent tree. Using the holdover is definitely much faster once you get used to it. I try to do it as much as possible.

 

[Fig]

Don’t like the tree? Good luck on the long distance, no-dial stages. I’ll have an actual point of aim. You’ll be guessing out in clear glass land...

 

[patriot07]

Mil-C and skmr are my favorites. I don't have a use for a tree, but I don't mind if it's relatively unobtrusive. I'd rather have a duplex than a reticle that takes up way too much of the picture. But I'm not a competitive shooter and I don't have "stages" to worry about. I shoot for fun and relaxation.

 

[Stag556]

Don’t like the tree? Good luck on the long distance, no-dial stages. I’ll have an actual point of aim. You’ll be guessing out in clear glass land...

I’ve shot 8 PRS 2-day National Matches this year so far and have not once had a “long distance” no dial stage. I’ll just define long distance for this example as anything over 600yds.

Used to think I couldn’t go without a tree until I didn’t have one and realized the Mil C is just fine.

 

[Covertnoob5]

I’ve had a couple no dial stages at my local matches.

 

[C_R_Slacker]

Ok, so I don't get to shoot as much as I would like. Would you say that the tree reticles have enough of a learning curve that getting used to them takes regular practice? Do you find yourself getting lost and counting lines, taking as much time as dialing from the get go would have taken? Or if you decide you don't like it, are they easy enough to just ignore?

Thanks for the replies. Just trying to think through this before I make my decision.

 

[OLD308]

I shot decades with typical non gridded reticles. I got in to them only because turrets back in the day were so inaccurate. Forget returning to zero. Zero stops we’re not even a thoughts and getting lost in turns at the worst time happened all to often. First time I looked through a gridded retinal I laughed. No way I would ever be able to use it. Fast forward a few years and I got a NF with a Horus for free. In less than a month I was hooked. Now every scope I have has a gridded reticle. Accurate adjustments with out dialing is awesome. I never get lost in the grid. When I do use the turrets for the long stuff the zero stop is a life saver. I think it has more to do with what you practice with and like,more than witch is better. But for me is gridded scopes only. Good luck on your quest.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I was using an ebr-7b, now I’m using an mr4 reticle.

I’ll be picking up a Schmidt LRR this weekend. Going to see how I like it now that’s I’ve been using a tree reticle.

As far as no dial stages, the matches I’ve been to typically only have one no dial stage.

I agree with the above, it’s easier to hold than dial on many stages. While some may not be “real” no dial stages, they might as well be.

Will report back after using the LRR.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Not that it’s a big deal with most optics being very high quality, but the less you dial, the less your odds of a mechanical failure as well.

 

[texag0842]

Gen2 XR best of both worlds

 

[PBWalsh]

Tried out an Athlon Talos BTR with their tree reticle. It was nice but I did not like it. Didn’t get lost in the reticle or anything, but my holds were not as precise and did not feel comfortable looking “down” into the scope.

Now running an SWFA optic with their mil-quad and enjoy it more.

Just a thought from a shooter who has never shot a competition and has had no live fire rounds on a clock.

 

[idahoorion]

A few are pretty cluttered, you can get used to them but not everybody likes em. I have shot the Bushy G2's alot and now A skmr 3. I also shoot a Msr Steiner. the hold over with wind is easier for sure on Skmr 3. I select a dial for the stage that is mid range or one that works out to where the grid marks work out to be the closest with no float under or over. Non dialing is faster by a shot or two on multiple targets and ranges. we had a stage a couple weeks ago. 9 rds 90 secs. target 1-2-3- in that order and start over for 3 sets. with different ranges and panning involved the guys that used holdover had 1-3 more targets engaged than the dialers.

you need to go to a shoot or training and get behind one for a while. tracking bullet splash is not a issue with the ones I've used.

btw you didn't ask but I really like the .2 mil dots on the skmr 3.
ymmv
Idahoorion

 

[aSilk_Suit007]

Yeah. I find the "Horus" style recitals too cluttered and sometimes very un-useful. It always seem the guy that has it, shoots the widest groups.

 

[Mormegil87]

I ran H59s for a couple years. Then NF came out with the Mil-C. Decided to give one a try. I'm don't miss the H59 at all. We have a no dial stage that pops up every so often at our local match and I haven't had a problem getting hits without the Xmas tree reticles.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Standard tree rets like the skmr3 or ebr7 (my favorite) are easy to use, but you have to practice no matter what just to get used to the muscle memory of not dialing. The tremor on the other hand definitely takes practice. Only reason I’m using it is because that’s the only option in the 7-35. Otherwise I’d use the h59.

 

[kthomas]

I have scopes with the following reticles: MSR, MSR-K, SKMR3 & AMR.

For general purpose use, the SKMR3 is probably my favorite reticle and I personally don't see any downsides to that reticle compared to something more simple such as an MSR. I have felt limited in the past in certain situations with the MSR, but never with the SKMR3. The MSR can get you through most situations, but is lacking for ELR and longer distance hold over situations.

 

[Bender]

Reticles are always going to be subjective. I think the G2 is the best tree, but I sold it and have modified mil dots now. I like them just fine.

 

[koshkin]

We all have our own preferences. I am on the record with my dislike of Horus reticles. I think they are a retired mosquito net designer's wet dream. That having been said, they clearly work for a lot of people.

Personally, I have over the years developed a specific reticle preference where there is a simple mrad-based tree that is fairly thin so that at low power it basically disappears, but is usable from about 9x on up to whatever the top magnification is.

Most currently available tree reticles are not exactly what I am looking for, but there are many that I am perfectly comfortable with. I have all sorts of mileage with Gen 2 XR, all of the Vortex reticles, Athlons's, Sig's etc. I have also really developed a strong affinity for Delta's LRD-1T reticle. Since I've been using it so much this year. The tree in it is not too different from other good designs out there, but I really like the arrangement for the primary aiming point. I think it is intelligently done.

With non tree reticles, I think the latest version of the MSR is very good. I like Mil-C. However, even older and simpler designs like MilDot Gen2 and SWFA's Mil-Quad really work well in my opinion.

Then again, most people here are probably better shooters than I am, so take this for what it is.

ILya

 

[spife7980]

I haven't "gone back to" but I still mix in some more traditional reticles if it suits the purpose.

 

[steve123]

Yeah. I find the "Horus" style recitals too cluttered and sometimes very un-useful. It always seem the guy that has it, shoots the widest groups.

Well, I must be the exception seeing as how I won a long range series two years in a row, 98% holding over and off in the H59. This was against AZ's best steel shooters at the time, who dialed.

Years ago with H58 I believe, a real sniper in a world sniper comp had his Nighforce F1 break during the comp, he won holding over and off, he had to since his scope no longer dialed correctly.

In that vain I had a scope with a Horus reticle, my first FFP scope that didn't track correctly, I couldn't afford to buy a more expensive scope at the time so guess what??? I had to learn to use the reticle to it's full advantage, and I did just that.

I get the preference thing. That's fine if you don't like tree or grid reticles but don't state things like "un- useful" when that is a severe misconception.

If it's windy, and for whatever reason somebody is required to holdover and off with the reticle, those .2 mil holds work fantastic, especially if engaging smaller steel.

The grid and the tree reticles provide measurement and reference, learn to use them. Nothing more, nothing less.

If someone doesn't want to holdover, that's different, just dial and carry on.

 

[Fig]

I like minimalist reticles like a lot of tactical steel shooters who primarily shoot KDTs. However, “busy” just means you’re not using the features of that particular set up, and it’s distracting you. If you shot UKD targets my guess would be they stopped looking “busy”, and started looking very useful. Some of them are set up so if you add a little power they get a lot less cluttered as well. Even when I use a laser on UKD targets I still confirm in the reticle if practical. I can’t do that on my comp gun with the basic tree.

Or, rather I can, but not as easily, and I have to do maths in my head.

 

[Basher]

Well, I must be the exception seeing as how I won a long range series two years in a row, 98% holding over and off in the H59. This was against AZ's best steel shooters at the time, who dialed.

Years ago with H58 I believe, a real sniper in a world sniper comp had his Nighforce F1 break during the comp, he won holding over and off, he had to since his scope no longer dialed correctly.

In that vain I had a scope with a Horus reticle, my first FFP scope that didn't track correctly, I couldn't afford to buy a more expensive scope at the time so guess what??? I had to learn to use the reticle to it's full advantage, and I did just that.

I get the preference thing. That's fine if you don't like tree or grid reticles but don't state things like "un- useful" when that is a severe misconception.

If it's windy, and for whatever reason somebody is required to holdover and off with the reticle, those .2 mil holds work fantastic, especially if engaging smaller steel.

The grid and the tree reticles provide measurement and reference, learn to use them. Nothing more, nothing less.

If someone doesn't want to holdover, that's different, just dial and carry on.

I'm about 99.999% sure aSilk said "I find..." when referencing Horus reticles as "un-useful," meaning that's just him stating an opinion based on his own experiences. You may not agree with his opinion, but he is entitled to it.

Myself? I prefer a tree over a full-blown Horus. The H59 is really the only full Horus I find appealing and would like to try. The Tremor series looks far too cluttered for my tastes. So my order would be tree, non-tree, Horus H59. I currently use the G2H, G3, and milquad reticles, and would like to have an EBR-7B, EBR-2C, SKMR3, MR4, MPCT-2 and Gen2XR at some point, plus perhaps that H59. I've owned a few of the above, but sold them for various reasons, so adding them back in is an eventual goal (probably not all at once though, haha).

 

[wigwamitus]

I use both ... "mil-hash" and "hold over" reticles ...

Since I've gotten several of the rifle mounted range finders, those lend themselves to a "no dial" sort of shooting. If you need to quickly engage several unknown distance targets, you would have to dial down to the zero stop to range, and then dial up to the elevation you need for the shot and repeat for each shot. So "no dial" just means you stay on the zero stop to range and hold.

I'm using Tremor 3 reticles for "no dial" due to the wind dots also increasing the speed of making the shot.

==
But, I want retain muscle memory for dialing so I have a mil-hash reticle on one of my active rifles ... this requires different tools and processes for ranging and shooting ... and I want to be proficient with both styles.

 

[steve123]

I'm about 99.999% sure aSilk said "I find..." when referencing Horus reticles as "un-useful," meaning that's just him stating an opinion based on his own experiences. You may not agree with his opinion, but he is entitled to it.

Myself? I prefer a tree over a full-blown Horus. The H59 is really the only full Horus I find appealing and would like to try. The Tremor series looks far too cluttered for my tastes. So my order would be tree, non-tree, Horus H59. I currently use the G2H, G3, and milquad reticles, and would like to have an EBR-7B, EBR-2C, SKMR3, MR4, MPCT-2 and Gen2XR at some point, plus perhaps that H59. I've owned a few of the above, but sold them for various reasons, so adding them back in is an eventual goal (probably not all at once though, haha).

I was mostly referring to the "widest groups" comment. Though my findings are the opposite, "by example". Sure we've all got our opinions....

Me, I hate line marking numbers directly off the vertical crosshair, as far as tree reticles go. The Athlon Ares APLR3 reticle is my favorite tree style.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I use both ... "mil-hash" and "hold over" reticles ...

Since I've gotten several of the rifle mounted range finders, those lend themselves to a "no dial" sort of shooting. If you need to quickly engage several unknown distance targets, you would have to dial down to the zero stop to range, and then dial up to the elevation you need for the shot and repeat for each shot. So "no dial" just means you stay on the zero stop to range and hold.

I'm using Tremor 3 reticles for "no dial" due to the wind dots also increasing the speed of making the shot.

==
But, I want retain muscle memory for dialing so I have a mil-hash reticle on one of my active rifles ... this requires different tools and processes for ranging and shooting ... and I want to be proficient with both styles.

Why do you have to dial down to the zero stop to range?

 

[wigwamitus]

Because you zero the LRF (infinity zero) to the center of the day scope reticle ... at a particular elevation setting. And the zero stop elevation setting is the most repeatable so, most people use that. The LrF will not be zeroed to the center of the reticle if you dial away from the elevation setting at which you zeroed the LRF.

 

[B-P-UU]

I too was worried moving from a tree (Vortex AMG) to the MIL-C but felt the upgrades were worth it. I've shot 6 matches so far and it hasn't been an issue. Only 1 or 2 no dial stages. As others mentioned, targets tend to be a bit larger on no dials.

I would strongly recommend shooting with the reticle prior to jumping into a match to familiarize yourself with it.

 

[silhouette]

I like the tree because it seems to draw my eye to the centre.
The Horus is like looking through a gauze door.

 

[Fig]

I like the CounterSniper double impact reticle because it’s like looking through the meat flaps of a Puertorican prostitute.

 

[Va_Gentleman]

I like the CounterSniper double impact reticle because it’s like looking through the meat flaps of a Puertorican prostitute.

I don't know whether or not to hit the like button....

 

[chasedeer]

Mil-C is my favorite tree style shines in hold overs it’s just depends on what you use too

 

[Clearlight]

Depends . Trying to spot 5.56 misses through some tree reticles can be tricky , not so bad with a big Magnum .
SKMR 3 and MR4 style seem to be the happiest compromise : trying to see misses through a T 3 is a
problem , unless the ground is dry and dusty .

 

[Rob01]

Always a standard non tree reticle guy as there weren't any except for Horus and they were too much and too cluttered for my liking. But after using the Vortex 2C reticle more and more in matches I really like it. The tree is not cluttered or blocking view but it has spots to hold elevation and wind easier than out in space like we used to do. Shot a match yesterday where I was holding 7 and 7.6 mils over and had to hold a mil of wind so the 2C made it very easy. I still have a few non tree reticles and they work fine from using them for years but given the choice I would use the 2C or 7B over a non tree reticle.

 

[aSilk_Suit007]

Well, I must be the exception seeing as how I won a long range series two years in a row, 98% holding over and off in the H59. This was against AZ's best steel shooters at the time, who dialed.

Years ago with H58 I believe, a real sniper in a world sniper comp had his Nighforce F1 break during the comp, he won holding over and off, he had to since his scope no longer dialed correctly.

In that vain I had a scope with a Horus reticle, my first FFP scope that didn't track correctly, I couldn't afford to buy a more expensive scope at the time so guess what??? I had to learn to use the reticle to it's full advantage, and I did just that.

I get the preference thing. That's fine if you don't like tree or grid reticles but don't state things like "un- useful" when that is a severe misconception.

If it's windy, and for whatever reason somebody is required to holdover and off with the reticle, those .2 mil holds work fantastic, especially if engaging smaller steel.

The grid and the tree reticles provide measurement and reference, learn to use them. Nothing more, nothing less.

If someone doesn't want to holdover, that's different, just dial and carry on.

It was nothing personal bro. I should have said this but “that guy” I mentioned usually never learned to use his rectical. It’s good you did and got so far.

 

[Leozinho]

I’ve had a couple no dial stages at my local matches.

That's a thing? I don't shoot matches (yet), but as a casual precision rifle enthusiast, it's things like this that make me believe (rightly or wrongly) that precision rifle matches are too equipment oriented.

Besides a rifle that shoots straight, I also need a Christmas tree reticle, Hog saddle, laser range finder (I understand maybe ranges are provided at most matches), and I don't know what else.

 

[b6graham]

That's a thing? I don't shoot matches (yet), but as a casual precision rifle enthusiast, it's things like this that make me believe (rightly or wrongly) that precision rifle matches are too equipment oriented.

Besides a rifle that shoots straight, I also need a Christmas tree reticle, Hog saddle, laser range finder (I understand maybe ranges are provided at most matches), and I don't know what else.

i've shot stages you cant even adjust parallax or magnification. and there were very small targets at different distances. it happens

 

[Dthomas3523]

That's a thing? I don't shoot matches (yet), but as a casual precision rifle enthusiast, it's things like this that make me believe (rightly or wrongly) that precision rifle matches are too equipment oriented.

Besides a rifle that shoots straight, I also need a Christmas tree reticle, Hog saddle, laser range finder (I understand maybe ranges are provided at most matches), and I don't know what else.

Here’s what you need to need to shoot PRS:

Doped Rifle
Reliable optic with a reticle you prefer
Bipod
Fortune cookie bag (you can borrow bags until you see what you like)

The rest you can borrow and/accumulate as time goes on. 99% of shooters out there will be more than willing to let you borrow bags, rangefinders, and tripods while you learn what you prefer/need.

Regardless of how good a shooter you are or are not, it’s not going to be the amount of gear or lack thereof that is going to matter your first few matches.

 

[steve123]

That's a thing? I don't shoot matches (yet), but as a casual precision rifle enthusiast, it's things like this that make me believe (rightly or wrongly) that precision rifle matches are too equipment oriented.

Besides a rifle that shoots straight, I also need a Christmas tree reticle, Hog saddle, laser range finder (I understand maybe ranges are provided at most matches), and I don't know what else.

LOL, there's lot's a things involved with shooting long range and precision rifle matches. Every time I shoot one I learn at least a "thing or two" and it doesn't seem to end.

I experimented with free recoil in a NRL22 match this weekend, as well as revisiting holding over and off more often than I have been, like I used to do. I ended up with the W but saw a bunch of room for improvement in different aspects of the game.

Some of the ancillary gear helps quite a bit for building positions, etc. Some other gear is flat out necessary. Start out with what you can and go from there. Most of us here did just that and improved equipment as the years went by.

 

[Covertnoob5]

That's a thing? I don't shoot matches (yet), but as a casual precision rifle enthusiast, it's things like this that make me believe (rightly or wrongly) that precision rifle matches are too equipment oriented.

Besides a rifle that shoots straight, I also need a Christmas tree reticle, Hog saddle, laser range finder (I understand maybe ranges are provided at most matches), and I don't know what else.

You should have a laser rangefinder regardless of what shooting you do. Hunting, prs, etc it’s necessary imo. I also don’t trust the ranges at my local square range. The 1,000 yard target is actually at 1,030 up a steep hill.
You don’t need a tree reticle, but it makes it easier. I shot my last match with a 3-15 gen2mildot scope and placed decent.
You don’t need a tripod, and everyone will let you try theirs. At my local matches if a stage requires one we all use 1 tripod so no one is at a disadvantage.
Things you NEED imo
Rifle capable of 1 moa or better with known dope to at least 600 yards but 1,000 yards would be better
Scope with tactical turrets to dial elevation/windage
Bipod
100 rounds of Ammo

The rest is nice to have, but don’t worry about it to get into it.
A lot of it crosses over though, I now use a tripod for hunting, Always.
I also use a tree reticle sometimes.
I had a rangefinder from hunting, same with binos.
And shooting out to 1k for prs practice has helped me become much more confident in taking shots at hunting ranges 700 and in for me.

This is precision rifle competition not minute of deer competition. So some precision equipment is needed, but a lot is just nice to have.

What are you currently running?

 

[Leozinho]

Currently have a Savage in 6.5CM bedded in a cheap laminate stock, McGowan barrell and Vortex Viper PST Gen 1. Havent shot it in a few years as I’ve been focusing on other shooting sports

I was mostly being facetious when asking what else I needed. I know I could go to a club match and have fun.

I do think it’s kinda a shame that match director would put on a stage that essentially forces you to have a Christmas tree reticle to be competitive. Are people bored with matches that they have to create gimmick stages to shake things up?

But, who am I to comment ? I’ve never shot a match. I fully recognize I may be way off and not understand what the competitors want in a match.

 

[Basher]

I don't think no dial stages are gimmicks, personally. If you hunt, there may be times where you don't have the time to dial. And maybe at a match where you CAN dial, you're short on time and choose not to dial, in order to buy yourself some time. It's a good skill to have, whether you have a tree or not. But maybe that's just my way of thinking...

 

[Covertnoob5]

Exactly. ^^^^^
Not to mention should your scope ever take a tumble and in the moment you can’t or don’t trust the tracking you can hold over for the time being.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Currently have a Savage in 6.5CM bedded in a cheap laminate stock, McGowan barrell and Vortex Viper PST Gen 1. Havent shot it in a few years as I’ve been focusing on other shooting sports

I was mostly being facetious when asking what else I needed. I know I could go to a club match and have fun.

I do think it’s kinda a shame that match director would put on a stage that essentially forces you to have a Christmas tree reticle to be competitive. Are people bored with matches that they have to create gimmick stages to shake things up?

But, who am I to comment ? I’ve never shot a match. I fully recognize I may be way off and not understand what the competitors want in a match.

Holding doesn’t require a tree reticle. Does it make it easier for many people, yes. Required, nope.

PRS mimicks (for the most part) real positions that may come up in a tactical environment. You don’t always have time to dial in real life.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

I have a SKMR reticle on the rifle I use for comps, and a P4L reticle I use for hunting. I can see impacts in both, and usually dial for most of my shots.

The next scope I get will probably be a Mark 5 with a TMR.

 

[Biscuits]

Bump for this thread. About to buy a new rifle, so need a new scope.

I haven't done PRL other than a practice day, but I might do it some more. Or I might not, who knows.

Anyway, I need to decide between having a tree reticle, or just plain mildot crosshair reticle. I've never owned a scope with a tree reticle before. Interested in any thoughts as to if I should get a tree or not.

Also getting a mid-price scope, either a Delta Javalin 4.5-30x46 or a Meopta Optika6 5-30x46. Both of these are available with/without tree. Any comments on either of these welcome.

 

[Steel head]

Personally I’d always run a tree.
Hold without dialing inside of 1000 and fast adjustment for ELR corrections.

 

[Moose]

My favorite is the mpct-1 on my ZC 4x20.