Night Vision Anyone running dual band goggle setup?

[WoobieJ]

Anyone running the Dual Band Night Vision Goggles - DBNVG-14L?

https://www.ultimatenightvision.com/DBNVG-14L-p/dbnvg-14l.htm

Wondering how yall like the setup? (Especially for navigation and predator/hog hunting)
Do you feel the eye strain is similar or drastically more than running a typical DTNVG or PVS-15 setup?



insight appreciated

 

[car16smg]

@wigwamitus could weigh in. Think he runs a similar setup.

 

[wigwamitus]

Look at the next dozen or so posts after this one for recent activity ...

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/night-shooting-report.231054/page-10#post-8039392

 

[DownRangeThermal]

I use the skeet irx (640) paired with a L3 m914a on a lightweight bridge. Skeet IRX is the first thermal I've used that actually makes it possible for my brain to fuse the images together. Everything else has always given me a headache ( mostly because the other units out there are not a true 1x). I would definitely want a 640 unit when pairing it simultaneously with I²

 

[car16smg]

What about running a dual 14 setup with a COTI on one unit? Shouldn’t that still be true 1x unity?

 

[DownRangeThermal]

What about running a dual 14 setup with a COTI on one unit? Shouldn’t that still be true 1x unity?

Yes it would.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Anyone running the Dual Band Night Vision Goggles - DBNVG-14L?

https://www.ultimatenightvision.com/DBNVG-14L-p/dbnvg-14l.htm

Wondering how yall like the setup? (Especially for navigation and predator/hog hunting)
Do you feel the eye strain is similar or drastically more than running a typical DTNVG or PVS-15 setup?



insight appreciated

I run the Flir Breech beside a PVS 14 on a Mod Armory Lite Weight Bridge Mount and find this the most cost effect setup for the performance currently available. It doesn't matter what current helmet mounted thermal you run at 1x, none of them will give you positive ID at longer distances. That being said the Breech paired with a PVS 14 will definitely let you know something alive is out there at long distances and you can then use a better weapon mounted /handheld thermal or put a 3x or 5x Magnifier on the PVS 14 and light it with a Luna ELIR and get further ID information at long range. Running a Breech or other helmet mounted Thermal will never give you true fusion like a Pas29 COTI. I have those as well. However, the Breech performs much better at detection and run time than a COTI. I run the Mod Armory Battery Extender that gives you 5 hrs plus on a single 16650 battery without having external cables that snag on stuff. Being Joe Cool Operator with external cables that wear/break male and female sockets out and snag on all kind of shit really ain't that cool.

I keep both the PVS14 and Breech down as I have learned to constantly switch my eye focus to either view I want to see. Kind of like having 2 TV Screens set in front of you. For me it is a very fluid process to switch back and forth as I move along hunting hogs. This provides pretty much constant Thermal scanning & NV capability for walking and you will see way more targets than the walk, stop and hand thermal scan method.

I also run this setup on the Norotos Rhino II with Dovetail Socket as it it much more user friendly and affords more usability and is tougher than the Wilcox G24. You have more fore and aft adjustment with a Rhino II and don't have to hunt for the release button to stow. Yea I hear the "train more crowd" but simply put the Force To Overcome outperforms it and I have a shit ton amount of time under NV and Thermal. Plus the Rhino II Dovetail will let you stow and fold down the PVS14 & Breech on your helmet way more flatter than the Wilcox G24 can come close to.

FYI Mod Armory says their Breech Adapter works with the Quick Disconnect Bridge but I have found it to also works just as well on the Lite Version Bridge just as well. I own both of these Bridges.

In summary you can take a $3,000 PVS 14, a $2,500 dollar Breech and a $350 dollar Mod Armory Lite Weight Bridge and an $80 dollar Mod Armory Breech Batter Extender and for a total of say $6,000 (less then 1/2 the cost) have pretty much as good of a system as the $14,000 Skeet Package Option in IMHO. Yes, the Skeet will give you a cleaner image but it still can't do distance that well either. It takes Germanium Lens Size to do distance. PTS 736 is an awesome positive ID distance thermal. Retains its zero much better than its competitors and is tough as nails.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I forgot to add the Mod Armory Breech Mounting Arm to the summary. It is $150 dollars. Also, the RQE Bridge is much heavier than the Mod Armory Lite Weight mount and it will not hold up under heavy use without a lot of wear occurring on it, whereupon, it starts to have a lot of slack and sloppiness issues. It has too many moving parts to it. Its over engineered, heavy, and expensive IMHO.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[wigwamitus]

I have an ODIN 320 ...

... and it was on my helmet with a 14 for 2.5 years ... it doesn't have the image of the patrol or skeet, but still gets the job done ... detection is key ... and the ODIN can get that done ... PID can then be done based on observation, movement, etc.
I PID'd a yote at 500yds while I was rollin' on the 4-wheeler and the yote was moving (slowly) up the side of a hill ... definitely can't say I could do that every time .. but if you did it once .. you know it is possible.

WN&N's description of dual band use is spot on a match for mine ... he's just better at thinking of the words ...
In terms of switching back and forth between them ... its like using a handheld thermal except you don't have to use any hands ... and you don't have to wait to stop moving and hold it up ... its always there ... just switch the "focus" on your brain back and forth as needed.

==
I do think I can PID smaller critters, faster and longer distances with the higher end thermals like the patrol and the skeet ... but is it worth 2-3x the price of even 7 times the price ?? Each person needs to decide that. I have no plan to sell the ODIN. The only piece of ATN gear I still have ... but their Gen1 stuff was way better than the chinese stuff they got into later.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I have an ODIN 320 ... and it was on my helmet with a 14 for 2.5 years ... it doesn't have the image of the patrol or skeet, but still gets the job done ... detection is key ... and the ODIN can get that done ... PID can then be done based on observation, movement, etc.
I PID'd a yote at 500yds while I was rollin' on the 4-wheeler and the yote was moving (slowly) up the side of a hill ... definitely can't say I could do that every time .. but if you did it once .. you know it is possible.

WN&N's description of dual band use is spot on a match for mine ... he's just better at thinking of the words ...
In terms of switching back and forth between them ... its like using a handheld thermal except you don't have to use any hands ... and you don't have to wait to stop moving and hold it up ... its always there ... just switch the "focus" on your brain back and forth as needed.

==
I do think I can PID smaller critters, faster and longer distances with the higher end thermals like the patrol and the skeet ... but it is worth 2-3x the price of even 7 times the price ?? Each person needs to decide that. I have no plan to sell the ODIN. The only piece of ATN gear I still have ... but then Gen1 stuff was way better than the chinese stuff they got into later.

Never had the Odin, but have always wanted one. Maybe one day.

 

[j-huskey]

I run the Flir Breech beside a PVS 14 on a Mod Armory Lite Weight Bridge Mount and find this the most cost effect setup for the performance currently available. It doesn't matter what current helmet mounted thermal you run at 1x, none of them will give you positive ID at longer distances. That being said the Breech paired with a PVS 14 will definitely let you know something alive is out there at long distances and you can then use a better weapon mounted /handheld thermal or put a 3x or 5x Magnifier on the PVS 14 and light it with a Luna ELIR and get further ID information at long range. Running a Breech or other helmet mounted Thermal will never give you true fusion like a Pas29 COTI. I have those as well. However, the Breech performs much better at detection and run time than a COTI. I run the Mod Armory Battery Extender that gives you 5 hrs plus on a single 16650 battery without having external cables that snag on stuff. Being Joe Cool Operator with external cables that wear/break male and female sockets out and snag on all kind of shit really ain't that cool.

I keep both the PVS14 and Breech down as I have learned to constantly switch my eye focus to either view I want to see. Kind of like having 2 TV Screens set in front of you. For me it is a very fluid process to switch back and forth as I move along hunting hogs. This provides pretty much constant Thermal scanning & NV capability for walking and you will see way more targets than the walk, stop and hand thermal scan method.

I also run this setup on the Norotos Rhino II with Dovetail Socket as it it much more user friendly and affords more usability and is tougher than the Wilcox G24. You have more fore and aft adjustment with a Rhino II and don't have to hunt for the release button to stow. Yea I hear the "train more crowd" but simply put the Force To Overcome outperforms it and I have a shit ton amount of time under NV and Thermal. Plus the Rhino II Dovetail will let you stow and fold down the PVS14 & Breech on your helmet way more flatter than the Wilcox G24 can come close to.

FYI Mod Armory says their Breech Adapter works with the Quick Disconnect Bridge but I have found it to also works just as well on the Lite Version Bridge just as well. I own both of these Bridges.

In summary you can take a $3,000 PVS 14, a $2,500 dollar Breech and a $350 dollar Mod Armory Lite Weight Bridge and an $80 dollar Mod Armory Breech Batter Extender and for a total of say $6,000 (less then 1/2 the cost) have pretty much as good of a system as the $14,000 Skeet Package Option in IMHO. Yes, the Skeet will give you a cleaner image but it still can't do distance that well either. It takes Germanium Lens Size to do distance. PTS 736 is an awesome positive ID distance thermal. Retains its zero much better than its competitors and is tough as nails.

Your mileage may vary.

Will you kindly post a picture of the bridge mount, and a pic of the set up mounted on a helmet ?

Couple of us in another thread went in this direction and could use your experience to learn something. Thanks much,
vr

@wigwamitus

A similar pic set would be nice here too if you so kindly would ?

@Mclark48

 

[j-huskey]

Thanks much.

Need a pic of bridge showing connections of units for "seeing it and understanding" the set up.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

I've been running a ir patrol, pvs-14 combo on a Wilcox bridge for a few years. It's heavy and takes some getting used to but I can see everything.

I usually keep the brightness down in the patrol and run white hot so the image stays darker. Switching from green to a wp pvs-14 helped a lot with eyestrain.

 

[wigwamitus]

From top to bottom:

Skeet,
14
COTI

all on IC bridge
on norotos lo sto mount
use unv plug on the skeet with custom 3v step down cable and standard amazon 5v usb batts.
Still working on a custom plug for the coti.

I run the skeet on black hot with the brightness down so the image is dark
Coti I run on white hot as that seems to show the critters best.

==
Minimalist setup

Nightcap
14
coti
norotos tatm mount
ic bridge

When rolling on the 4-wheeler or walkin in open pasture .. .I run the coti on edge detect ... anything large enough or close enough can been seen, then I switch to patrol to shoot.

 

[j-huskey]

Thank you Gentlemen VERY MUCH ! A picture is worth several million words.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Mod armory (IC) makes our skeletonized bridge mounts. Both the standard qd arm version and the lightweight fixed version. The breach/MUM adapter arm was designed around the QD version. For most people the fixed (lightweight) version does not line up perfectly height wise with the breach arm attached. It can be made to work but it can be hard to see the entire breach screen. The standard qd bridge works perfectly with the breach and 14 together. Here is our skeletonized arm lightweight version and as you can see the 14 sits a little higher than the breach.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Will you kindly post a picture of the bridge mount, and a pic of the set up mounted on a helmet ?

Couple of us in another thread went in this direction and could use your experience to learn something. Thanks much,
vr

@wigwamitus

A similar pic set would be nice here too if you so kindly would ?

@Mclark48

Yes I will. I will take some tomorrow and post them.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Mod armory (IC) makes our skeletonized bridge mounts. Both the standard qd arm version and the lightweight fixed version. The breach/MUM adapter arm was designed around the QD version. For most people the fixed (lightweight) version does not line up perfectly height wise with the breach arm attached. It can be made to work but it can be hard to see the entire breach screen. The standard qd bridge works perfectly with the breach and 14 together. Here is our skeletonized arm lightweight version and as you can see the 14 sits a little higher than the breach.
View attachment 7189936

With all due respect Sir, you do not have the Breech Arm correctly adjusted such as to have it line up pretty close to the PVS 14. I will take some photos tomorrow and post them on how I adjust the Mod Armory Breech Arm to get it to line up almost perfectly with the PVS 14. It is a little finicky getting them lined up but it is very doable and I am able to easily get a good full screen view. However I like to run my NODS / Breech pretty far out because I hunt in the South where we have a lot of humidity and I like to keep my sweat from fogging up my devices in the summer time. Thus with both the PVS 14 and Breech further away from my face the FOV in both devices decreases but it does not hurt the performance IMHO because both have pretty wide FOV which still provides plenty of area to scan, even decreased.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Left to Right. Mod Armory Quick Disconnect Bridge, Mod Armory Original Lite Weight Bridge, Current new Mod Armory Lite Weight Bridge. Please note the the Original Lite Weight Bridge has a bolt on interface at the shoulder bolt area. The new Lite Weight Bridge does not have this and the arm is all one single piece.

Long story short, is that you can adjust the Mod Armory Breech Arm to properly work with all 3 of these iterations of their Bridge. Look closely at the angle of the arm where the shoulder bolt goes threw and the pivot adjustment bolt on the arm is located.

This is a small teaser. I will take better pics and might add some notes to the pics to explain how to properly adjust the Breech Arm to get the Breech adjusted correctly height wise with the PVS 14 on the Lite Weight Bridge Mounts.

 

[j-huskey]

@WhereNow&How and @DownRangeThermal

Mclark and I are trying to make mtm work. Pic attached....

Just using the mount as issued and screw holes, as placed, the mtm does not fit the mount on either side in the contour like the 14. It creates an unsightly non fit and a half inch drop. Or zzzt-failure..... ?

Both your knowledge can solve our problem down the line.

a. Is there a replacement piece that will work with mtm on this mount ?

b. Do I need to buy qd mount and .... ?

I admit a high degree of ignorance, stupid, and retarded on my part. I was born that way, mom tried to drown me several times in the bath tub, and dad strapped me in a vehicle seat, drove the jeep in the pond, once they realized I was difficult.
Since I didnt stay drowned, the resulting brain damage made me more difficult. ??

Sooo, Gentlemen, thanks for your help so far.... now, the mtm... ?

 

[DownRangeThermal]

With all due respect Sir, you do not have the Breech Arm correctly adjusted such as to have it line up pretty close to the PVS 14. I will take some photos tomorrow and post them on how I adjust the Mod Armory Breech Arm to get it to line up almost perfectly with the PVS 14. It is a little finicky getting them lined up but it is very doable and I am able to easily get a good full screen view. However I like to run my NODS / Breech pretty far out because I hunt in the South where we have a lot of humidity and I like to keep my sweat from fogging up my devices in the summer time. Thus with both the PVS 14 and Breech further away from my face the FOV in both devices decreases but it does not hurt the performance IMHO because both have pretty wide FOV which still provides plenty of area to scan, even decreased.

Good to hear you got it to work for you that way.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@WhereNow&How and @DownRangeThermal

Mclark and I are trying to make mtm work. Pic attached....

Just using the mount as issued and screw holes, as placed, the mtm does not fit the mount on either side in the contour like the 14. It creates an unsightly non fit and a half inch drop. Or zzzt-failure..... ?

View attachment 7190036

Both your knowledge can solve our problem down the line.

a. Is there a replacement piece that will work with mtm on this mount ?

b. Do I need to buy qd mount and .... ?

I admit a high degree of ignorance, stupid, and retarded on my part. I was born that way, mom tried to drown me several times in the bath tub, and dad strapped me in a vehicle seat, drove the jeep in the pond, once they realized I was difficult.
Since I didnt stay drowned, the resulting brain damage made me more difficult. ??

Sooo, Gentlemen, thanks for your help so far.... now, the mtm... ?

You are using the PVS 14 Arm that was specifically designed and engineered to work with a PVS 14. To my knowledge Mod Armory does not make a mounting arm for the MTM. I am not sure of the geometry of your MTM but I would suspect you will have to have a custom arm built to be able to do what you are trying to do here. Mod Armory now and then will do custom one off fabricating work but it is expensive. However, they do outstanding work. The juice likely will not be worth the squeeze from a price perspective. You might want to visit with some of the other dealers and see if any of the RQE mounts have already fabricated parts that will allow you to do what you are wanting to do here. Any way you go is likely to be pretty expensive to get this set up correctly.

Sorry I could not be of more help on this.

 

[CTM1]

@WhereNow&How and @DownRangeThermal

Mclark and I are trying to make mtm work. Pic attached....

Just using the mount as issued and screw holes, as placed, the mtm does not fit the mount on either side in the contour like the 14. It creates an unsightly non fit and a half inch drop. Or zzzt-failure..... ?

View attachment 7190036

Both your knowledge can solve our problem down the line.

a. Is there a replacement piece that will work with mtm on this mount ?

b. Do I need to buy qd mount and .... ?

I admit a high degree of ignorance, stupid, and retarded on my part. I was born that way, mom tried to drown me several times in the bath tub, and dad strapped me in a vehicle seat, drove the jeep in the pond, once they realized I was difficult.
Since I didnt stay drowned, the resulting brain damage made me more difficult. ??

Sooo, Gentlemen, thanks for your help so far.... now, the mtm... ?

This pic was posted on another board by a long time member some years back. Not sure if it it helps you but maybe it can give you ideas .

 

[j-huskey]

You are using the PVS 14 Arm that was specifically designed and engineered to work with a PVS 14. To my knowledge Mod Armory does not make a mounting arm for the MTM. I am not sure of the geometry of your MTM but I would suspect you will have to have a custom arm built to be able to do what you are trying to do here. Mod Armory now and then will do custom one off fabricating work but it is expensive. However, they do outstanding work. The juice likely will not be worth the squeeze from a price perspective. You might want to visit with some of the other dealers and see if any of the RQE mounts have already fabricated parts that will allow you to do what you are wanting to do here. Any way you go is likely to be pretty expensive to get this set up correctly.

Sorry I could not be of more help on this.

On the qd mount, it doesnt look to difficult to fabricate a piece. Note said, "doesnt look" . If I had a qd in hand, I more than likely could fabricate one.

I'm pretty sure I could take either arm off my mount, cut a short length off, reshape, and drill a new mount hole.
EDIT: That idea is shot because of the mtm screen placement. Wont work. The breach type mount with adaptation would be much closer to working. End edit.

I've done similar b4 on stuff oga paid for, no longer work for oga.... it's on my dollar now.

Thanks much !

 

[j-huskey]

So........ after a 100+ mile ride, one way, and thinking, thinking, thinking.....
Returned to measure things.
First, set up the 14's and set the eye spacing. Transferred said to lined graph paper. By drawing the eye piece circles on the paper.
Checked the 14's eye spacing against two pair of binos. Satisfied we had my personal setting....
First set the mtm left and 14 right. The bodies touched and would not allow them to close enough to get the eye width setting.
Then sat 14 left and mtm right, and they sat on the drawing fine, not jammed together. Real close, but not touching.
Measured the mounting flats of both to see how much drop btw the units would be. Again, very close, nothing a shim wouldn't equalize on the 14. So far so good.
Measured the hole heights to see if they were equivalent parallel. Not. There is btw 3/8 and 1/2" difference in their longer axis versus being located equally across. Pic explains.
Not insurmountable.

Then looked at potential bridge settings. Slottings will allow minute width settings.
Slotting the Wilcox dovetail holes will allow centering once the eye widths are secured.
A mortise needs milling in for the mtm.
Need mill time. How much do I have..?

I can see an IC adjustable qd bridge being made to work if I can create an mtm qd attach mount to go to the ic bridge. Another day.

Pics.

At some point in the future, yall will see a contraption.

 

[WhereNow&How]

J-Husky, you on the right track. If you have access to someone who has a mini CNC machine and is pretty good at designing it can be done pretty easily. They just hangers. Problem is always trying to find a bud who has those talents and equipment that will do it at bud prices. If you get that MTM slung under there and get your hands on one of those clip on Magnifiers for the MTM you will have one bad ass system.

 

[WoobieJ]

Lots of great info here. Glad some of you chimed in with the Breech / 14 setup as well, I like the affordability of that setup as opposed to the skeet 640 + 14.

 

[wigwamitus]

Looking back thru this, no one has really talk much about the patrol ... the patrol is a totally viable middle ground between the breech and the skeet 640 ... and about half way in between in price.
I happen to have DROPPED mine and busted up the rear end to where I couldn't turn the diopter (dropped on concrete). So I sent it in for repair last week.
But when I get it back, I'll do some pics.
The IC Bridge we keep talking about has a "further forward" position option. And adjusting your ic bridge to use that "further forward" position allows the patrol to fit on there with plenty of clearance for your eye socket. Yes, the 14 on your other eye will be a little too far forward, but life is full of trade-offs. I don't notice it in the field.
And the patrol on either 1x or 2x digital s a great spotter.
Here's one of the few pics I do have of my patrol.

That's the raytheon 3xG magnifier which we used to be able to get from Night Optics for $1,500 ... versus the Torrey Pines for $2,500. The Raytheon gives a clear image ... and with the patrol on 4x ... you get up to 12x net magnification and I've used that and consider it to be equivalent to the Mk3 60mm on 4x which I ran side by side. I could see a cows ear flopping around in pouring rain at 500yds while she was working on a bale with both of them.
So that converts your patrol into a long distance thermal spotter.
You can also mount a radius on the patrol and wind up with a thermal ranger finder.

So, the patrol is a very flexible piece of kit and even after 4 years on the market still worthy of consideration.

 

[Frog05]

@wigwamitus Patrol/14 w/ IC bridge. She's a pig, but she works! ?

 

[j-huskey]

A further comment. My bud at FLIR is running a wilcox bridge with a 14 and a breach, and he has zero problems doing that. Wilcox bridge is out of my "gonna spend" range.

I cant find an early 1st gen qd ic bridge with the screw adjustments for eye width. Does anybody .........
a. Have one in their junk box they arent using.... ?
b. See a.
c. See a and b.....

Waiting on bud to drop off bar stock for my other project deal. Moving on.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

One of the nice things with the Wilcox bridge is you can flip the mounting arm and get the PVS and patrol to line up a little better

 

[TheGerman]

I have 2 versions:

Setup1

Crye Airframe
LoSto mount
RQE bridge
PVS14 with vyper housing on one side via M clip
PAS23 on other side via M clip

Setup2

OpsCore Martime
ANVIS9

Have always considered trying an E-Coti as well.

 

[jeffl838]

Dual band is inferior for running around the woods or driving (especially if you have a windshield...). That's not to say it's undoable. Still very doable. 31's and a coti are badass though.

If you're sitting on a hill waiting for pigs, the dual band set up in your link. will probably work a little better.

 

[j-huskey]

I have 2 versions:

Setup1

Crye Airframe
LoSto mount
RQE bridge
PVS14 with vyper housing on one side via M clip
PAS23 on other side via M clip

Setup2

OpsCore Martime
ANVIS9

Have always considered trying an E-Coti as well.

Would you post pic of set up 1 please ?

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

I also run 14s on a wilcox bridge or swap and run 14/Breach, but I can't run 14/breach while moving, regardless of strong eye/weak eye side - maybe my brain doesn't work like that: I am expecting 3d stereo vision and only get thermal info on the one side, so no visible light signature. That said, I often run dual 14s with the Breach on a lanyard, you just have to know where to expect stuff.

Lastly I have a very good hand-held IR light, and am considering an IR lightbar for spotlight for more range on the 14s.

As said above, a Breach does a few things well, but is no replacement for a great weapon-mounted thermal. NV and Breach can get you 100 out, and use the better thermal to close with and destroy.

 

[wigwamitus]

Thermal vs NV

The first time I went out with my first thermal, I had a 14 with me as well. I went into my alfalfa patch, a popular spot for some critters. The 14 saw an empty pasture, the thermal saw three deer on the other side of the pasture, in the open, but their background was a tree line ... a dark background.

Even in the day, if we want to be harder to see, having a non-contrasting background, like a tree line, behind us, is a good idea.

Now could you just walk around with the illuminator on your head turned on all the time and do the same thing ? Yes and No.

With the illuminator on all the time, you could see the critters, in the open, out to a certain distance. With HP illum you'd be able to see them out at least 600yds ....but TBH I would not shine a powerful illum at a critter unless I already knew I wanted to shoot it. HP illum is a weapon it could blind the critter. Do you want to blind a critter you are not going to shoot ?

==
Woods

Also, at least for me, I have a significant amount of woods on my land and often see critters in the woods ... that would be mostly impossible with NV, even with an illuminator. Hecque, using an illum to see into the woods actually reduces how far you can see, just like using a flashlight. Because the illum bounces off the vegetation and comes back at you and washes out the scene. So, if you want to see in the woods, only two options, wait for the full moon to put the big flashlight in the sky OVER the top of the woods ... or use thermal. And of course, even with the big flashlight up there (the moon) there are still moon shadows in the woods. And NV can't see into those. Thermal can.

As to navigating in the woods, most of the time, thermal wins, I can see the trees, the deadfall, the buggy trails, the creeks, the puddles. WIth the 14 there are tinmes it is too dark.

Net/net, I find thermal way more useful in the woods.
==
NV++

So thermal on your head can see critters, when 14 cannot.

So, if thermal is so great, why bring a 14 ?

A 14 can see a laser, the thermal cannot.

A 14 can see other people using lasers or illum or viz light, thermal cannot. This might be useful in detecting other night hunters out there.

A 14 can see approaching vehicles from 1+ miles away even on the other sside of a hill, due to their headlights ... thermal cannot. This might tell you to check fire until the vehicle passes.

A 14 can see in the rain a little better than thermal.

A 14 can see in the snow a LOT better than thermal.

A 14 can see in ice covered conditions a lot better than thermal.

A 14 can see thru regular glass a thermal cannot.

==
Driving

It is certainly true that a 14 is better for driving vehicles with regular glass. A 14 can see thru the glass, thermal cannot. Further, if I'm driving a vehicle, lights out on unfamiliar ground, with glass and passengers, then I use two 14s on my head to try to get a little depth of field.

But on my land (and neighbors land) I ride on my 4-wheeler (a.k.a. ATV) a lot ... and when with others we ride in buggies (a.k.a. "side by sides"). And most of these either have no glass, or the glass can be lowered or raised out of the way for night ops.

So, with thermal up there ... I have a hands free spotter available at all times. If I want to turn it off, I can tell me brain to igmore it. I usually run my thermal spotter on weak side, to preserve strong side for aiming with laser. Or if I seriously want to turn off the thermal (or the 14) ... I can close one eye. This is still a hands free evolution.

When crossing fords in the woods or tall pipe bridges in low ground, I would not feel nearly as safe as I do using the thermal, to make sure I don't drive off the pipe bridge (one has a 15 foot drop off) or miss the buggy trail across the creek and crash into deadfall).

So hands free spotting of critters while driving and ability to better see terrain in dark spots are the plusses of having thermal up there while driving.

 

[j-huskey]

A. Dual pvs14, Anvis, pvs15, driving flying, looking through glass, works as advertised. Dual gives you some depth of field.
a1. Light flaring whether man made, natural, or illum bloom can cause you to miss something critical that can end up hurting you.
a2. Can get heavy on the head/neck (broken once, injured thrice) over extended trips, up to 25 miles of atv/golf cart. Painful.
a3. Cannot see in the dark black hole hiding sharp teeth when screening brush flares illum. Hole free legs are very important when you have to hike out several miles.

B. Thermal finds the sharp teeth I/2 misses.
b1. Thermal can do all Wig said.
b2. Thermal can find way more than I/2 under more varied conditions.
b3. Thermal on lanyard gets in the way of ar10 on single point sling in certain terrains that can only be traversed with at least one hand free, while two feet seek safe footings.
b3-1. Long walks with too much stuff hanging off you over rough terrain is tiring.... very, and too much junk hanging off you catches on too much and can cause a missed opportunity or allow sharp teeth to get too close to leg.

C. I/2 + thermal is the best of both worlds combined, if not, why is Uncle going blended...
c1. Certain terrains and certain conditions favor I/2 + thermal on helmet when you need more hands free time and need faster weapon up on fleeting sharp teeth.

Many people's mileage varies based on use requirements, previous or no experience, and mission requirements.

I need both I/2 and thermal, very fast, right there, and I need immediate rifle with thermal sight put into action. Helmet mounted, fast flip up, and light fast handling rifle with thermal sight over several mile walks are preferable to lots of pieces hanging on lanyards or in bulky pockets.

This since spotter riding golf cart has been reduced to me alone walking a lot in wooded areas sharp teeth have moved to.

Experimental bridge hovers btw delrin and aluminum, moving on, not ready for pic showing.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Many people's mileage varies based on use requirements, previous or no experience, and mission requirements. ...

I would also add TERRAIN causes variations in reported experience. Specifically ones guys WOODS maybe totally different from another guys WOODS. Most of my woods are very difficult to traverse even in the day time. The branches from the trees overlap and you have to push your way between the trees. There is a SH^T load of deadfall in there and you have to step carefully. And there are step banks going up and down, you have to crawl, climb, slide up and down. That's my woods, I'm sure other woods are three times harder to navigate and other woods are 3 times easier. My woods are along a creek system with banks dozens of feet high in some places where the water has cut into a rock face ... the trees are between 100yds and 100yds on both sides of the creek ... and there are feeder creeks and streams with their own trees, etc.

 

[wigwamitus]

Yesterday we had 3 new calves ... and one of them seemed a wee bit lethargic, so I was going out to check last night. And I decided to roll (on the 4-wheeler) around the long way just to do a general pasture check. I had the skeet on left eye and the 14 and coti on right eye and the 5.56(10.3) slung. Up near Signal Hill I saw one cow in the middle of a pasture laying down. She stood up as I rolled by and there was a small hot "lump" beside her. So this looked like I was seeing calf #4 in 24 hrs. I continued to roll around the South pastures and then thru the woods and across the ford.
The moon was still up ... and at about a 45 degree angle (maybe less) with a quarter showing. The skeet could definitely see more detail than the 14. The 14 barely could see the buggy trail but it was crisscrossed with lots of moon shadows. The skeet clearly saw the ruts in the buggy trail, so I could stay on the trail and not bang into the deadfall or other obstacles. When the moon is high in the sky, this paradigm changes, but last night the moon was still not high enough.
I reached the alfalfa patch and found the location of the one calf (and mom) I was interested in. The calf's location had changed (which means it had stood up). And while I was sitting nearby on the 4 wheeler with the engine running ... the calf stood up. So all this is good and what I was hoping to see. The calf can't drink unless it stands up ... and it must get the colostrum in the first few hours. Hence standing up is CRITICAL.
Then rolled back the way I had come. The collimation between the 14 and the skeet was especially good tonight and I was seeing almost a fused image ... it doesn't always work out that way (very sensitive to exact head position) and I don't expect it too ... but when they do merge, I don't object. The skeet does seem to be really close to 1x.

... just another example of using dual band ... and driving ... and being in the woods ... all in one episode ...

 

[Killswitch Engage]

ive been out the past few nights scouting around, shooting coon and crossing rivers and fields with my dual band set up and I have to say I really do dig it. it blows scanning with a handheld unit clean out of the water in every regard. conditions have been absolute shit for thermal the past week and yet I still find the breach to work amazingly well for its tiny size. its definitely solid for its price point, capability and size.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

For those running both simulateously, are you running the breach in white hot? Maybe mine is simply an issue of the right color combo with the 14 strong side.

 

[wigwamitus]

I run the skeet mostly in black hot ... and that actually makes it hard to know which one I'm mostly seeing at any given moment, unless I think about it.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

mainly black hot but really depends on conditions. I find in good thermal conditions with low humidity I prefer white hot image.

 

[plong]

Love this thread... Thanks, Guys! Seems like every time I'm thinking of a question the answer gets posted before I even ask. Been wondering if I'm a knucklehead for thinking I, mostly, prefer black hot when using my M300W... thought "am I the only one who thinks this... and, should I be spending more time getting to know/like white hot...?" KSE and Wig: you guys ROCK!

 

[newguy2k3v2]

Excellent points about getting around with thermal. I'm usually on a ATV so no windshield. It's actually easier to see tracks, holes, ruts etc with the patrol especially when dead grass has everything looking monochromatic and lacking depth.

I like white hot the majority of the time. It keeps the image darker overall so that in my head the thermal view doesn't overpower the NV. Also it's just more natural for my mind/eye to pick out a white spot in a darker field vs the other way around.

 

[WhereNow&How]

For those running both simulateously, are you running the breach in white hot? Maybe mine is simply an issue of the right color combo with the 14 strong side.

I run my Breech's in the Arctic Palette when paired with a PVS 14. I am primarily hog hunting. The Arctic Palette give the most contrast of any of the Palette's for me. I could care less about seeing a normal type visual youtube background scenery as I am just interested in locating live critters. Additionally, I have found the Arctic Palette to have a algorithm similar to the Trijicon Outline Mode, wherein the Breech in Arctic Palette encapsulates the animal in a much more sharper outline then fills in the animal with a pretty solid high definition glowing iron hot white with orange animal outline all set against a bluish colder background. Gives me much better Detection and Identification especially which you zoom 2x or 4x . I also run this same Palette on my Flir 233's and 736 for shooting especially running hogs as it just allows you to put them "Black Crosshairs" right where they need to be on leading due to contrast that even Ray Charles could see.

Now here is a couple of other pointers I have found to work well. Sometimes when I am really tired and have been out for a long time, my eyes can have some trouble switching back and forth from looking at the respective views of the PVS 14 and the Breech. When that occurs I just spreed the Breech out a little further from the perfect Interpupillary distance (like spreading 2 TV's apart) and that allows me to go back to switching what scenery I want to view more easily. The Breech has such a wide field of view that even spreading it out where its not centered on your eye allows for plenty of FOV for scanning for animals.

I also took the Flir 5 Button remote and removed it from the Pic Rail holder and you can then put on Veclco male and female bands on each side just like a watch band. Put that on your wrist just like a watch and it allows you to toggle back and forth on your zoom and other menus very quickly and easily compared to using the small buttons on the Breach. Plus you do not have to worry about getting your Breech out of adjustment with your eyes trying to fiddle with the smaller on board buttons when helmet mounted. I think that the Breech is the only helmet mountable thermal that can be used in conjunction with a remote. Trust me when I say, that is a really nice feature when you are out in the real world of night hunting.

Hope my experiences with this setup will be of benefit to others.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I forgot to also say that in really poor thermal conditions you can go in and increase your normal Gain settings of say 100 ish up to about 200 and it will make that little Breech lens detect much better at longer distances. I hunt in a lot of very high humidity down in the south.

 

[wigwamitus]

My conditions (in central mid-west) are not quite the same as in the South ... as we have -20F temps in the winter and 100F in the summer ... so we have a lot of variation in conditions ... but the ideas for optimizing thermal image are the same regardless of the thermal or the location ...

Here are the main ideas i've come up with ..


==

01 NUC often ... and this varies with conditions ... I sometimes nuc every few minutes all the time I have the thermal on. Other nights not so often. But as a general rule, nuc about 5 times in the first 5 mins and then at least every 15m after that. After a while, you'll be able to tell when you need to nuc. And its better to nuc when you don't need to (like right before you turn on a call) than need to nuc when you can't ... like when you have a critter in your sights. And I don't use auto nuc ... use manual nuc. Then I am in charge of the distruption timing and the noise (if any). When doing 360s ... if I am looking up hill during part of the 360 .. .I'm looking at the sky .. .which is really cold .. and that throws things off ... and I find I need to nuc after every such 360.

02 - Brightness ... a lot of people crank the brightness way up ... in some conditions that is bad ... As your eyes get used to the night turning down the brightness also helps preserve a little bit of your natural night vision. When in doubt, turn the brightness down another notch. More brightness can also increase washout in poor thermal conditions.

03 - Gain/Contrast. Leave it in the middle (on 5 as a number) in good conditions ... but as the thermal conditions deteriorate, crank it up 1, 2 or 3 clicks. The image will get grainer, but you'll be able to see more. You are fighting washout, due to things like rain, snow, ice, wind. The trade off is more graininess in exchange for being able to see more ... mostly more of the terrain ... the critters will still be visible. But you want to see the terrain to maintain your orientation and give clues about the range.

04 - Inversion. In general I run thermals on black hot. But when I am PIDing something a ways out there, I will invert to white hot, sometimes I can see things differently and get a better PID. Then switch back to black to shoot. So when PIDing, if not sure, try inverting, sometimes it helps.

05 - Magnification. You might think higher (digital) magnification (or on day scope with a thermal clipon) screws up the image. Well and it does make it fuzzier, especially 4x and 8x. But I've been able to SEE MORE on 4x on several occasions. So try it. Don't pay attention to the "fuzzy" pay attention to what you are looking at, you might see more detail and that can help with your PID. I saw a black dot one night, and after cranking up the magnification to 4x digital on mk3 60mm I could see head of a critter - in low ground so only the head - chewing on something ... on native 4.5x all I saw was a black dot).

06 - Focus ... now the REAP is fixed focus ... but its pretty good. The XP has manual focus, this is good, but you have to use it ! Turn that focus knob ! Turn it untiil the image gets fuzzy, then turn it the other way until the image gets fuzzy then try to put it in the middle. In general set it to 100yds ... but when look at something 500yds away adjust it.

Don't hunt for the one setting where you can set it and leave it. Turn those knobs and push those buttons. Experiment. Learn how to continuously optimize your image when you are out there!

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

I think the remote was disconintued, have a call in to Kevin at Flir to find out how/where to get one, or a suitable alternative.

I'll monkey with mine a bit more on mount maybe.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I think the remote was disconintued, have a call in to Kevin at Flir to find out how/where to get one, or a suitable alternative.

I'll monkey with mine a bit more on mount maybe.

They have 1 left. Better hurry.

https://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/ATWR000003/Accessories-and-Kits/