AR-15 DMR: TT315M vs ZCO 4-20 vs Nightforce ATACR 4-16 F1 vs Kahles 318i

[Jdfd556]

Hi All,

I'm trying to decide on a new optic (and reticle) for a KAC SR-15 LPR MOD 2 (if one ever comes back in stock). I've done a ton of research on this including browsing SH for similar threads and reading Ilya's Opticsthoughts blog extensively. I have pretty much narrowed down my options to these four. The optic will either be mounted in a SPUHR or a Badger Condition One mount with an offset Aimpoint T2. I'd prefer to not have excess weight if I can avoid it, but if the tradeoff is a better overall optic that is fine with me. I'm a big fan of having commonality with regards to reticles, so likely which brand and reticle I choose will be going on future setups, mainly other DMRs and a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun (which will take forever to get the parts for in the current market). Durability is paramount for me on this. I get a Mil Discount on NF through NF and I get a bit of a discount on TT with EuroOptic. However, budget isn't a big concern on this. The reticles I have been looking at are the Gen 3XR, MPCT3 and 3x, Tremor 3, and SKMR 3 (unfortunately the SKMR 4 doesn't come on the Kahles 318i). Which would you go with if you were looking forward and would have the same brand and reticle on future rifles? Thanks in advance!

 

[koshkin]

TT315M is a good option, but is a tough call between that and ZCO. TT is a bit lighter and has really wide FOV on 3x, so it gets the nod
If I were you, I would add the March 4.5-28x52 to this list. If you want a little more magnification, it is a really nice option. Weight is right between TT and ZCO

If money is no object, I would be choosing between these three.

ILya

 

[charnicus]

I would consider a Mk6 3-18 with C style turrets. Glass in my opinion is very comparable to the 4-16 ATACR. Mk5 as well.

From your list I would vote 318 or 4-16. Both can be had with a T3 reticle or proprietary trees. I’m a fan of the SKMR but MilXT is very well done (I have a 4-20 with it).

 

[Secant]

I have the ZCO420, TT315M, and I had the 4-16x42 ATACR. I haven’t used the 3.5-18 kahles, but I have the K525i. For me, I think the ZCO420 is the best all around package.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Have all of the above except the Kahles, don't buy Kahles, they don't belong on that list, in my estimation.

The TT315M is my favorite all-around scope, but I'm not sure it is worth the delta over the ZCO, which is an amazing optic and might take the TT's place soon at my top spot.

Leupold most definitely doesn't belong on that list.

My biggest concern with these on an AR15, even a DMR, is they are big optics and change the balance quite a bit of a mid-weight AR. If this gun will be run offhand or from unusual positions, these are all gonna complicate its deployment. If this is primarily a stable shooting platform, rock on.

 

[TacosGigante]

Have all of the above except the Kahles, don't buy Kahles, they don't belong on that list, in my estimation.

The TT315M is my favorite all-around scope, but I'm not sure it is worth the delta over the ZCO, which is an amazing optic and might take the TT's place soon at my top spot.

Leupold most definitely doesn't belong on that list.

My biggest concern with these on an AR15, even a DMR, is they are big optics and change the balance quite a bit of a mid-weight AR. If this gun will be run offhand or from unusual positions, these are all gonna complicate its deployment. If this is primarily a stable shooting platform, rock on.

What would you recommend for a DMR AR that will be used offhand as well as stable?

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

I have 2 guns that fill that role, one wears an SWFA 3-9 and it is a great scope for the money. The other is wears a 2.5-10x42 Nightforce, also great scope, costs a lot more. Both also wear off-set red dots for up close work.

I tend to think in terms of "perfect tool for the task" rather than badest-assest scope to put on an AR. DMR isn't about super precision at super long range, it is about rapid semi-precision target engagement in the largest possible set of circumstances. This in no way means my 2 scopes are the absolute best at anything; however, they are both all but perfect for semi-precision fire from a semi-precision platform within the effective range of the caliber.

I can afford to scope both with much more expensive glass, but both guns get beat to hell and have to be absolutely reliable, and neither scope has a superior on the market in terms of durability and longevity - or none that I know of and have used.

Finally, people often say DMR but mean something else. These guns are true DMR role guns. If I need precision fire at range, the bolt gun wearing the ZCO goes in the bag.

The right tool for the job.

Hope that helps.

 

[ma smith]

+1 22oz > 35oz (for some applications)

 

[Moose]

Waiting on my 3rd ZC 4x20 from cs tactical.

 

[KineticPerformance]

I haven't used any of those except the ATACR but, all things being equal, I would choose the one that was smallest, lightest, and has the reticle you like because big optics on "DMR" guns makes them handle like a Harley hauling firewood. I've used the Mk6 3-18x at work for years in that role but currently use the ATACR 1-8x for that role. On personal guns, used in DMR matches or secondary shooter with gasser in team matches, I use a Mark 5 3.6-18x if I'm not limited on magnification. My choices are based on length, weight, and reticle familiarity. Of your choices, the TT is what I'd buy if I were attending your money.

 

[HenryTheAce]

I own all the scopes you listed above except the TT is a 315P model. I ended up selling the atacr but all of them are quality scopes. I agree with what many others have said, the Kahles for the price it demands is no where near the TT or ZCO. I’d honestly rather use my discount with Leupold or NF over buying a kahles again.

If you plan on moving the scope around between different hosts the P series tool-less re-zero is pretty awesome and fast. No need for any tools. Just note the change in shift and boom you’re up and running. I run my TT’s on my DT’s for making barrel swaps easier. The ZCO is really a nice experience getting behind it and an amazing scope. I need throw levers for TT’s since they’re so stiff, no need with the ZCO

My eyes aren’t as good to notice the subtle differences between the Tangent Theta and ZCO. I however can tell a difference comparing them to scopes like NF ATACR, Leupold, and Kahles.

 

[TheHorta]

… TT is a bit lighter and has really wide FOV on 3x, so it gets the nod
If I were you, I would add the March 4.5-28x52 to this list. If you want a little more magnification, it is a really nice option. Weight is right between TT and ZCO

I could be missing something, but in all the specs I see online, the TT is both heavier and bigger than the ZCO.

For a light caliber DMR, I’d personally go smaller/lighter. I hate heavy guns.

 

[CSTactical]

Here is a DMRish setup we did for a customer recently with a ZC420 in Magpul OD Green

 

[ma smith]

35 oz optic
2 oz caps
10 oz sphur
1 oz mount
1oz RMR

=49oz

 

[GreenMushroom]

What would you recommend for a DMR AR that will be used offhand as well as stable?

18" to 20" pencil barrel and an acog. If you want variable nightforce 2.5-10 or credo 2.5-10 for ffp. If your getting that kac your really paying for the light weight and most importantly balance. Getting much over 20oz on your optic is really going to throw that off. I didn't get the kac hype until I handled one but they just feel right in your hands and that can be easily ruined by hanging to to much stuff on it.

 

[beetroot]

I have 2 guns that fill that role, one wears an SWFA 3-9 and it is a great scope for the money. The other is wears a 2.5-10x42 Nightforce, also great scope, costs a lot more. Both also wear off-set red dots for up close work.

I tend to think in terms of "perfect tool for the task" rather than badest-assest scope to put on an AR. DMR isn't about super precision at super long range, it is about rapid semi-precision target engagement in the largest possible set of circumstances. This in no way means my 2 scopes are the absolute best at anything; however, they are both all but perfect for semi-precision fire from a semi-precision platform within the effective range of the caliber.

I can afford to scope both with much more expensive glass, but both guns get beat to hell and have to be absolutely reliable, and neither scope has a superior on the market in terms of durability and longevity - or none that I know of and have used.

Finally, people often say DMR but mean something else. These guns are true DMR role guns. If I need precision fire at range, the bolt gun wearing the ZCO goes in the bag.

The right tool for the job.

Hope that helps.

I agree, seems like the term DMR gets used out of context more often than not.
I tend to think of a DMR scope as being a 1-8/1-10/2-12 type set up.

For the OPs use I'd go NF 4-16x42, mostly because it looks bloody cool.
Most of the scopes mentioned have very similar reticles so would decided based on what weight I wanted and whether or not locking turrets were important.

The above NF has pretty nice turret arrangement for the intended use.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

One more monkey in the wrench: are you planning to run suppressed or rude? The can out front can help offset, but all that weight really messes with weapon maneuverability. And DMR is all about moving the weapon around and engaging targets accurately and quickly.

 

[koshkin]

I could be missing something, but in all the specs I see online, the TT is both heavier and bigger than the ZCO.

For a light caliber DMR, I’d personally go smaller/lighter. I hate heavy guns.

TT315P is heavy.
TT315M is light(ish).

ILya

 

[Jdfd556]

One more monkey in the wrench: are you planning to run suppressed or rude? The can out front can help offset, but all that weight really messes with weapon maneuverability. And DMR is all about moving the weapon around and engaging targets accurately and quickly.

That is an excellent question. I am planning on running the KAC QDC CQB can out front if I can ever find one available. Agreed on DMR maneuverability!

 

[Jdfd556]

Thanks everyone for your responses on this topic it has been greatly helpful! I really, really was wanting the ZCO 4-20 but damn if that 35oz isn't significant compared to the TT315M at slightly less than 28 oz. Decisions, decisions...

 

[TheOE800]

I had a 20” DMR style small frame I ran suppressed with ATACR 4-16x42 F1 and I can’t imagine having something heavier on the gun. It made it unwieldy and top heavy, but from this list I’d ironically choose the ZCO. The 315M isn’t light enough or any more feature-packed vs the ZCO to justify itself. I agree ZCO heavy, I would prefer to put it on a large frame gasser, but in alpha tier glass there is nothing I’ve come across in my research that’s ticking the all boxes - you’re going to give something up whether it’s cost, performance, or weight.

Personally I think weight is important and while Leupold doesn’t belong on this list, I’m excited by a the prospect of a MK5HD.

 

[SepticDeath]

I have made hits on a 36" piece of steel at 1,002 yards with my 3x18 Mark 5. Gun is a 16 inch AR in 223/556. Optic is phenomenal and I have the ability to dial that up on a 0 moa optic mount with that small caliber. I would absolutely put the Mark 5 on this list. Glass, weight and turrets are great.

 

[KineticPerformance]

I agree that a Mark 5 isn't in the same league as the others but it's more than enough for "DMR" work and it's appropriately sized for a small frame or a 14-16" big frame (I use it on 22-24" gassers also).

 

[deersniper]

Here is a DMRish setup we did for a customer recently with a ZC420 in Magpul OD Green

View attachment 7696590

What caliber / handguard / arca ?

 

[siscoe308]

I love the look of the S&B 5-20US on a gas gun.

 

[TheOE800]

I had a 20” DMR style small frame I ran suppressed with ATACR 4-16x42 F1 and I can’t imagine having something heavier on the gun. It made it unwieldy and top heavy, but from this list I’d ironically choose the ZCO. The 315M isn’t light enough or any more feature-packed vs the ZCO to justify itself. I agree ZCO heavy, I would prefer to put it on a large frame gasser, but in alpha tier glass there is nothing I’ve come across in my research that’s ticking the all boxes - you’re going to give something up whether it’s cost, performance, or weight.

Personally I think weight is important and while Leupold doesn’t belong on this list, I’m excited by a the prospect of a MK5HD.

But really what’s 10oz in the long term?

 

[TheHorta]

I love the look of the S&B 5-20US on a gas gun.

She’s a looker!

Tremor3 reticle.

 

[HenryTheAce]

She’s a looker!

Tremor3 reticle.

View attachment 7698144
View attachment 7698145

You’re shooting MIL’s now snipershide daddy?? Also good to see you back

 

[Thorbeast]

I have no experience with the NXS 2.5-10x42, but I think that might be a good fit.

I have the 4-16x42 atacr, and it's not a small scope. I'd probably take a look at the Leupold 3.6-18x44, it's bit lighter than everything on your list, but it will probably still be 2 lbs+ after mount and scope caps. If you are going to put 2+ lbs on top of your AR, maybe the extra weight of the ZCO won't matter?

If you have the funds, I'd probably go with the ZCO, it's such a well reviewed scope, if you didn't end up liking it on your AR I'm sure you could happily find a home for it on another gun.

 

[Huskydriver]

Friends don't let friends buy Leupold lol

 

[deersniper]

Rifle Scopes - ZCO 2-16

When is ZCO going to make a scope similar in size and zoom to a NX8. Something like a 30mm 2-12 or 2-16?

www.snipershide.com

This should fit the Bill when it come out.

 

[Secant]

Rifle Scopes - ZCO 2-16

When is ZCO going to make a scope similar in size and zoom to a NX8. Something like a 30mm 2-12 or 2-16?

www.snipershide.com

This should fit the Bill when it come out.

Yep, the soon to be released 26oz ZCO420H is going to be rad

 

[Jdfd556]

Rifle Scopes - ZCO 2-16

When is ZCO going to make a scope similar in size and zoom to a NX8. Something like a 30mm 2-12 or 2-16?

www.snipershide.com

This should fit the Bill when it come out.

I was actually thinking the same thing, but AFAIK there is no timeframe on if/when they would be available. This will most likely end up being the ultimate gas gun optic with ZCO's durability, features, and reticles. I'm currently torn between the MPCT3 and 3x reticles, and am actually leaning toward the 3, I think the ranging funnel is a really nice feature to have.

 

[deersniper]

I was actually thinking the same thing, but AFAIK there is no timeframe on if/when they would be available. This will most likely end up being the ultimate gas gun optic with ZCO's durability, features, and reticles. I'm currently torn between the MPCT3 and 3x reticles, and am actually leaning toward the 3, I think the ranging funnel is a really nice feature to have.

I like the 3. I think the ranging uterus will only be used for fun and fantasy for most of us. But that applies to other things too. I would rather have the 3 over the 3x


yeah that hypothetical 2-1x will be years if ever. But I’m anticipating

 

[beetroot]

Yep, the soon to be released 26oz ZCO420H is going to be rad

Only $1500 too!

 

[Secant]

Only $1500 too!

 

[deersniper]

^right If its less than $3000 it’s gonna be junk

 

[CSTactical]

What caliber / handguard / arca ?

I believe .308, it's a Larue OBR tweaked by the customer. We provided the ZCO and Cerakote job.

 

[jbuck88]

I just got a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10 for my compact hunting rig. It's a good fit, for a smaller application. I didn't want the size and bulk of the ATACR and the NX8 was also too large/bulky.

 

[Moose]

I have the NF compact on a Kidd 10/22 and like it a-lot.