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AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
- Thread starter X-fan
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Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
i would go with shootie but not 00 buck or slugs, ive seen them travel house to house. especially high brass
i would go with a bird shot or a pre-frag slug
i would go with shootie but not 00 buck or slugs, ive seen them travel house to house. especially high brass
i would go with a bird shot or a pre-frag slug
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
You'll find the answer to your question and the truth about which one penetrates more ...... Here.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
You'll find the answer to your question and the truth about which one penetrates more ...... Here.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
I still say the only way I'm using bird shot is if I live on Sesame Street and my intruder is large and yellow.
I still say the only way I'm using bird shot is if I live on Sesame Street and my intruder is large and yellow.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll find the answer to your question and the truth about which one penetrates more ...... Here.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm </div></div>
Good synthetic test it shows which ammo will penetrate more than another, however I would bet that his wall count is higher than actual as it does not account for the gap in walls insulation, studs etc. Another thing to note is on the pistol test the hollowpoints simply filled with wood and did not expand, this is the reason for mechanical jacketed hollowpoints like Hornady Critical Defense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll find the answer to your question and the truth about which one penetrates more ...... Here.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm </div></div>
Good synthetic test it shows which ammo will penetrate more than another, however I would bet that his wall count is higher than actual as it does not account for the gap in walls insulation, studs etc. Another thing to note is on the pistol test the hollowpoints simply filled with wood and did not expand, this is the reason for mechanical jacketed hollowpoints like Hornady Critical Defense.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Rem 870 w/ 00buck sits next to couch. AR 15 w/ 55gr HP next to chair. XD40 w/ 155 hydrashocks on table. All wear lights so I know what Im pointing my firearm at in the dark. If I have a choice, my shotgun hits harder and sights the fastest for me (by about .12 secs on 4" plate at 15yds over my AR, I love having a shot timer now! Thanks Santa!)
I have performed my own drywall/wall stud penetration tests. I recommend everyone does the same. Thats part of being prepared.
I live in the country with no children and am not concerned in the least with overpenetration.
Rem 870 w/ 00buck sits next to couch. AR 15 w/ 55gr HP next to chair. XD40 w/ 155 hydrashocks on table. All wear lights so I know what Im pointing my firearm at in the dark. If I have a choice, my shotgun hits harder and sights the fastest for me (by about .12 secs on 4" plate at 15yds over my AR, I love having a shot timer now! Thanks Santa!)
I have performed my own drywall/wall stud penetration tests. I recommend everyone does the same. Thats part of being prepared.
I live in the country with no children and am not concerned in the least with overpenetration.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I then tried a frangible .223 that Hardshell sent me to try.
They were Federal 50 grain, Frangible rounds.
This round went through 8 boards and bounced off the 9th board.</div></div>
As you can see, the frangible .223 doesn't penetrate as much as the 193 in this guy's test.
Try conducting some penetration tests yourself. I tried the V-Max bullet and found that it will work fine for me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I then tried a frangible .223 that Hardshell sent me to try.
They were Federal 50 grain, Frangible rounds.
This round went through 8 boards and bounced off the 9th board.</div></div>
As you can see, the frangible .223 doesn't penetrate as much as the 193 in this guy's test.
Try conducting some penetration tests yourself. I tried the V-Max bullet and found that it will work fine for me.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Only a single person living in a suburban or more rural single family home is best off with a shotgun. If you have a family, or close neighbors you have to be accountable for everything you send down range. I don't think most of us all live together in one room, especially people with children. If you have a family member in close proximity to a burglar are you gonna start blasting with a shotgun? How about a head shot on a hostage taker? Home defense tactics are not equivalent to military cqb techniques. There is no one in my home that is an acceptable casualty.
Only a single person living in a suburban or more rural single family home is best off with a shotgun. If you have a family, or close neighbors you have to be accountable for everything you send down range. I don't think most of us all live together in one room, especially people with children. If you have a family member in close proximity to a burglar are you gonna start blasting with a shotgun? How about a head shot on a hostage taker? Home defense tactics are not equivalent to military cqb techniques. There is no one in my home that is an acceptable casualty.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
I want to honestly see someone take a calculated headshot on a active aggressive intruder, you guys are nuts.
I want to honestly see someone take a calculated headshot on a active aggressive intruder, you guys are nuts.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to honestly see someone take a calculated headshot on a actor aggressive intruder, you guys are nuts. </div></div>
Joe, I am sure they do it all the time in Call of Duty. You have to admit taking head shots while simultaneously guzzling Dew, and cramming their pie holes with pizza is definitely a task to be had.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to honestly see someone take a calculated headshot on a actor aggressive intruder, you guys are nuts. </div></div>
Joe, I am sure they do it all the time in Call of Duty. You have to admit taking head shots while simultaneously guzzling Dew, and cramming their pie holes with pizza is definitely a task to be had.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to honestly see someone take a calculated headshot on a actor aggressive intruder, you guys are nuts. </div></div>
Dude I do it in COD all the time thanks to Magpul DVDs
And if you are having to deal with a hostage situation in your own home, you've already lost.. Why the fuck are you guys so retarded?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to honestly see someone take a calculated headshot on a actor aggressive intruder, you guys are nuts. </div></div>
Dude I do it in COD all the time thanks to Magpul DVDs
And if you are having to deal with a hostage situation in your own home, you've already lost.. Why the fuck are you guys so retarded?
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Yep I forget everyone can do CQC with a AIAW and a acog, or a Barret 50 what was I thinking
Yep I forget everyone can do CQC with a AIAW and a acog, or a Barret 50 what was I thinking
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
I use a M1 on my front porch. Intruders don't even get on my lawn much less my garage, or house.
I use a M1 on my front porch. Intruders don't even get on my lawn much less my garage, or house.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Why is this a topic? The choice is clear, grab whichever is closer once you run out of rounds in the pistol lol.
Why is this a topic? The choice is clear, grab whichever is closer once you run out of rounds in the pistol lol.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What I want you to think about though, is perception. I don't know what BC's laws about home defense are, and every state here varies in the leniency. But I would much rather be standing in front of a judge or jury with a plain jane shotgun than a tacticaled up AR. You don't know how any of them will view firearms, even for self defense purposes. It sounds silly but it's the reality when around non-gun people. AR's are "assault weapons" with a bad stigma about them, they are made for killing. Shotguns have the stigma of sporting and defense use. In the scrutiny from investigation into any self defense shooting I may or may not be involved in, I want any advantage to make it go smoother and easier for me. I would rather look like I was forced into defending myself, than "out for blood" when using an AR. </div></div>
Yes, good point. Legal ramifications need to be considered.
Our gun laws are indeed screwy.
Were I live the AR is restricted weapon (as in use restricted to an approved range). If I defended myself with an AR I think there would be a significant chance I would be in a lot more trouble...I think the court would try to show I was looking for a fight.
Here shotgun is unrestricted.
My home defense 870 is a wood stocked 12 inch barrel that (other than being short) looks like Popps old shotty.
I load it with #4 and have slugs ridding on the butt stock holder
I have no doubt as to the effectiveness of either weapon system.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What I want you to think about though, is perception. I don't know what BC's laws about home defense are, and every state here varies in the leniency. But I would much rather be standing in front of a judge or jury with a plain jane shotgun than a tacticaled up AR. You don't know how any of them will view firearms, even for self defense purposes. It sounds silly but it's the reality when around non-gun people. AR's are "assault weapons" with a bad stigma about them, they are made for killing. Shotguns have the stigma of sporting and defense use. In the scrutiny from investigation into any self defense shooting I may or may not be involved in, I want any advantage to make it go smoother and easier for me. I would rather look like I was forced into defending myself, than "out for blood" when using an AR. </div></div>
Yes, good point. Legal ramifications need to be considered.
Our gun laws are indeed screwy.
Were I live the AR is restricted weapon (as in use restricted to an approved range). If I defended myself with an AR I think there would be a significant chance I would be in a lot more trouble...I think the court would try to show I was looking for a fight.
Here shotgun is unrestricted.
My home defense 870 is a wood stocked 12 inch barrel that (other than being short) looks like Popps old shotty.
I load it with #4 and have slugs ridding on the butt stock holder
I have no doubt as to the effectiveness of either weapon system.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGTBrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is this a topic? The choice is clear, grab whichever is closer once you run out of rounds in the pistol lol. </div></div>The purpose of a pistol is to fight your way to your rifle, which you shouldn't have left out of arm's reach in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGTBrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is this a topic? The choice is clear, grab whichever is closer once you run out of rounds in the pistol lol. </div></div>The purpose of a pistol is to fight your way to your rifle, which you shouldn't have left out of arm's reach in the first place.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I live in the country with no children and am not concerned in the least with overpenetration. </div></div>
Same.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I live in the country with no children and am not concerned in the least with overpenetration. </div></div>
Same.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our gun laws are indeed screwy... Were I live the AR is restricted weapon (as in use restricted to an approved range). If I defended myself with an AR I think there would be a significant chance I would be in a lot more trouble...I think the court would try to show I was looking for a fight.</div></div>Isn't it a crime in Canada to load a restricted weapon anywhere other than at a range approved by the Provincial Solicitor General? If so, to be able to defend yourself with a restricted weapon you would first have to commit a crime.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our gun laws are indeed screwy... Were I live the AR is restricted weapon (as in use restricted to an approved range). If I defended myself with an AR I think there would be a significant chance I would be in a lot more trouble...I think the court would try to show I was looking for a fight.</div></div>Isn't it a crime in Canada to load a restricted weapon anywhere other than at a range approved by the Provincial Solicitor General? If so, to be able to defend yourself with a restricted weapon you would first have to commit a crime.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
I keep a sack of popcorn kernels and a wrist rocket by the bed.
Disturb my slumber and it is ON!
I keep a sack of popcorn kernels and a wrist rocket by the bed.
Disturb my slumber and it is ON!
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bearwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a 590 loaded with 00 buck next to my bed. The reason I don't use my AR15s for home defense is the same reason that we usually got the Benelli M4 loaded with 00 buck up to whoever was on point when kicking in a doors in Iraq . . . it works very well in these situations. The M4s and M16s had their time to shine outside, but inside they usually followed after the Benelli. On a side note, I really miss that damn Benelli M4! </div></div>
Any soldier using a Benelli "on point" while "kicking in doors" is being done a huge disservice by their NCO's. Having done it before doesn't make it right. There is a reason that no professional military school trains CQB with shotguns in any capacity outside of breaching.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bearwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a 590 loaded with 00 buck next to my bed. The reason I don't use my AR15s for home defense is the same reason that we usually got the Benelli M4 loaded with 00 buck up to whoever was on point when kicking in a doors in Iraq . . . it works very well in these situations. The M4s and M16s had their time to shine outside, but inside they usually followed after the Benelli. On a side note, I really miss that damn Benelli M4! </div></div>
Any soldier using a Benelli "on point" while "kicking in doors" is being done a huge disservice by their NCO's. Having done it before doesn't make it right. There is a reason that no professional military school trains CQB with shotguns in any capacity outside of breaching.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Or do a rem 870, extended mag tube, heat shield and adj AR stock like I did.
Or do a rem 870, extended mag tube, heat shield and adj AR stock like I did.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoBig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People need to accept the fact that anything you should want to use on another person is damned well going to go through at least several interior walls without stopping.
Dr. Robert's discussions on M4Carbine are some of the best accumulations of information and research available:
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91 </div></div>
GREAT STUFF!!!! </div></div>
Agreed.
The first and foremost reason for shooting in self defense is to STOP THE THREAT. Any ballistic tip round is a POOR choice with this in mind. Yes, they may stop the threat, but I have seen more than one coyote run off after being shot with one. They will make big nasty superficial wounds. But they stop the threat less reliably. If using an AR, a heavier grain bullet is preferred, as it tends to fragment better AND penetrate the target better, thus more reilably stopping the threat. As stated already, if you are going to shoot, you should expect penetration, no matter what you are shooting. I've seen a 9mm almost go through 2 houses before. Buck shot is going to penetrate walls just like 9mm or 45. Frangible won't penetrate walls as well, but neither will it penetrate the target and stop it reliably. There is no perfect solution. If you are going to shoot, then be prepared for penetration. Period.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoBig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People need to accept the fact that anything you should want to use on another person is damned well going to go through at least several interior walls without stopping.
Dr. Robert's discussions on M4Carbine are some of the best accumulations of information and research available:
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91 </div></div>
GREAT STUFF!!!! </div></div>
Agreed.
The first and foremost reason for shooting in self defense is to STOP THE THREAT. Any ballistic tip round is a POOR choice with this in mind. Yes, they may stop the threat, but I have seen more than one coyote run off after being shot with one. They will make big nasty superficial wounds. But they stop the threat less reliably. If using an AR, a heavier grain bullet is preferred, as it tends to fragment better AND penetrate the target better, thus more reilably stopping the threat. As stated already, if you are going to shoot, you should expect penetration, no matter what you are shooting. I've seen a 9mm almost go through 2 houses before. Buck shot is going to penetrate walls just like 9mm or 45. Frangible won't penetrate walls as well, but neither will it penetrate the target and stop it reliably. There is no perfect solution. If you are going to shoot, then be prepared for penetration. Period.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
AR, easily. A 12 GA can get the job done in 99% of circumstances, no doubt, but the AR has advantages.
Capacity is much greater, well-aimed follow-up shots are fast and easy, much greater capability to engage multiple threats, weight and length make for much easier handling. Terminal ballistics are brutal at these ranges yet barrier (over) penetration is less of a concern even compared to buckshot and most pistol cartridges. Easy to mount a light in many different configurations based on what you are comfortable with/have trained with.
Best advantage of the 12 GA IMO is dealing with the aftermath. Studies have shown juries are less sympathetic to people using black rifles in self defense compared to more conventional rifles or shotguns.
AR, easily. A 12 GA can get the job done in 99% of circumstances, no doubt, but the AR has advantages.
Capacity is much greater, well-aimed follow-up shots are fast and easy, much greater capability to engage multiple threats, weight and length make for much easier handling. Terminal ballistics are brutal at these ranges yet barrier (over) penetration is less of a concern even compared to buckshot and most pistol cartridges. Easy to mount a light in many different configurations based on what you are comfortable with/have trained with.
Best advantage of the 12 GA IMO is dealing with the aftermath. Studies have shown juries are less sympathetic to people using black rifles in self defense compared to more conventional rifles or shotguns.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Joe this is what I find hilarious. Have you noticed when people post up pictures of their AR they have compensators on them? Yeah good luck with firing that shit inside a house.
Can you imagine the conversation with the police afterwards?
Officer, "so this dead guy broke into your house?"
Husband, "what?!"
Wife, "what?!"
Kids, "what?!"
I'll stick to the double barrel and 1911, thanks. I don't need follow up shots with 00 Buck.
Joe this is what I find hilarious. Have you noticed when people post up pictures of their AR they have compensators on them? Yeah good luck with firing that shit inside a house.
Can you imagine the conversation with the police afterwards?
Officer, "so this dead guy broke into your house?"
Husband, "what?!"
Wife, "what?!"
Kids, "what?!"
I'll stick to the double barrel and 1911, thanks. I don't need follow up shots with 00 Buck.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JonM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Anyone try using these?
http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/ddupleks_products/show/Hexolit32 </div></div>
What in the fuck?!?!
I keep a 590 loaded with Hornady's home defense 00 buck load, and my 1911 with speer gold dot. And a 40 oz of Old English. Makes a great bum shank when broken
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JonM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Anyone try using these?
http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/ddupleks_products/show/Hexolit32 </div></div>
What in the fuck?!?!
I keep a 590 loaded with Hornady's home defense 00 buck load, and my 1911 with speer gold dot. And a 40 oz of Old English. Makes a great bum shank when broken
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
I don't play COD, I'm a full time LEO and train regularly for failure drills and hostage/taker shooting. I was making a realistic point that I wouldn't even want to hit one of my children with the wad much less shot of any kind. Disciplined shooting means that you place your shots and they go where intended. They call it a "scatter gun" for a reason and in my personal opinion only, which is worth just as little as anyone else's here, a pistol or carbine is better than a shotgun when you have to be accountable for noncombatants. If you want to blow the shit out of stuff and don't care what else you hit a shotgun is awesome.
I don't play COD, I'm a full time LEO and train regularly for failure drills and hostage/taker shooting. I was making a realistic point that I wouldn't even want to hit one of my children with the wad much less shot of any kind. Disciplined shooting means that you place your shots and they go where intended. They call it a "scatter gun" for a reason and in my personal opinion only, which is worth just as little as anyone else's here, a pistol or carbine is better than a shotgun when you have to be accountable for noncombatants. If you want to blow the shit out of stuff and don't care what else you hit a shotgun is awesome.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tpr564</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't play COD, I'm a full time LEO and train regularly for failure drills and hostage/taker shooting. I was making a realistic point that I wouldn't even want to hit one of my children with the wad much less shot of any kind. Disciplined shooting means that you place your shots and they go where intended. They call it a "scatter gun" for a reason and in my personal opinion only, which is worth just as little as anyone else's here, a pistol or carbine is better than a shotgun when you have to be accountable for noncombatants. If you want to blow the shit out of stuff and don't care what else you hit a shotgun is awesome. </div></div>
I've read that when you get into a confrontation, much like someone breaking into your home and threatening your life, you lose the majority of your fine motor skills, which in turn causes your accuracy to decrease substantially. I, personally, think I would have more of a fighting chance with a shotgun in my hands than a pistol, but if the shit goes down, I'll take either one. Just my humble opinion. But I don't have kids to worry about, either.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tpr564</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't play COD, I'm a full time LEO and train regularly for failure drills and hostage/taker shooting. I was making a realistic point that I wouldn't even want to hit one of my children with the wad much less shot of any kind. Disciplined shooting means that you place your shots and they go where intended. They call it a "scatter gun" for a reason and in my personal opinion only, which is worth just as little as anyone else's here, a pistol or carbine is better than a shotgun when you have to be accountable for noncombatants. If you want to blow the shit out of stuff and don't care what else you hit a shotgun is awesome. </div></div>
I've read that when you get into a confrontation, much like someone breaking into your home and threatening your life, you lose the majority of your fine motor skills, which in turn causes your accuracy to decrease substantially. I, personally, think I would have more of a fighting chance with a shotgun in my hands than a pistol, but if the shit goes down, I'll take either one. Just my humble opinion. But I don't have kids to worry about, either.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tpr564</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't play COD, I'm a full time LEO and train regularly for failure drills and hostage/taker shooting. Disciplined shooting means that you place your shots and they go where intended.gun when you have to be accountable for noncombatants.</div></div>
Well howdy lawman. It's cool that you train regularly for it and everything, that's why you're paid.
Don't get me wrong, I am not meaning any disrespect for any LEOs, you'll have my back, and I'll have yours.
I don't think that your average gun owning citizen will be dreaming of the day that someone breaks into their house, and they can't wait to bust ass. Although I'd love to see someone try, but I don't want it to happen. Most people probably won't extensively train, and go through every circumstance that could happen.
I agree that adrenaline will be pumping, with fear and everything else, I bet that your aim isn't going to be as solid as it is when you're at the range, but I bet you're still going to make your mark. Now, I don't even know, I haven't been in this situation, probably like most that post in this thread.
I just know that if you're in my house, and can take 9 rounds of #2 buckshot, and still function well enough, then you're getting a face full of .45.
Isn't the first thing we learn as shooters be aware of what's infront of and behind our target?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tpr564</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't play COD, I'm a full time LEO and train regularly for failure drills and hostage/taker shooting. Disciplined shooting means that you place your shots and they go where intended.gun when you have to be accountable for noncombatants.</div></div>
Well howdy lawman. It's cool that you train regularly for it and everything, that's why you're paid.
Don't get me wrong, I am not meaning any disrespect for any LEOs, you'll have my back, and I'll have yours.
I don't think that your average gun owning citizen will be dreaming of the day that someone breaks into their house, and they can't wait to bust ass. Although I'd love to see someone try, but I don't want it to happen. Most people probably won't extensively train, and go through every circumstance that could happen.
I agree that adrenaline will be pumping, with fear and everything else, I bet that your aim isn't going to be as solid as it is when you're at the range, but I bet you're still going to make your mark. Now, I don't even know, I haven't been in this situation, probably like most that post in this thread.
I just know that if you're in my house, and can take 9 rounds of #2 buckshot, and still function well enough, then you're getting a face full of .45.
Isn't the first thing we learn as shooters be aware of what's infront of and behind our target?
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Step 1. Measure the farthest line of sight distance in your house.
Step 2. Go to the range with your shotgun. Put up a paper target.
Step 3. Shoot the center of said paper.
Unless you are living in a freaking mansion, that shotgun (with any choke) will put every pellet (of any size) into center mass of a silhouette. Are they scatterguns at 40 yards? You bet. At "house" distances...you'd be amazed how tight a group you get.
But guys, come on. Some people just think way too much into this. It's a DEFENSIVE situation, you are not invading Normady, you are not taking on a CIA hit team out to get you, or whatever else you see in the movies. Shit's not that crazy in real life.
Everyone has their preferences, but with whatever you pick, everyone should agree that shot placement is key. Doesn't matter what you are using, or how much penetration you get, if you can't hit the fucker who's standing at the other end of the hallway (and that's only if you have kids to protect. If not, why are you leaving your bedroom looking for trouble?) After all, you shouldn't be pulling the trigger unless you are 100% certain your rounds are hitting center mass of the bag guy anyways, right?
But I digress. We have already answered the posters question, which was HIS two choices, shotgun, or AR. His situation was resolved, we should start a new thread if you want to continue debating more useless crap, like if you need hard or soft body armor next to your bed.
Step 1. Measure the farthest line of sight distance in your house.
Step 2. Go to the range with your shotgun. Put up a paper target.
Step 3. Shoot the center of said paper.
Unless you are living in a freaking mansion, that shotgun (with any choke) will put every pellet (of any size) into center mass of a silhouette. Are they scatterguns at 40 yards? You bet. At "house" distances...you'd be amazed how tight a group you get.
But guys, come on. Some people just think way too much into this. It's a DEFENSIVE situation, you are not invading Normady, you are not taking on a CIA hit team out to get you, or whatever else you see in the movies. Shit's not that crazy in real life.
Everyone has their preferences, but with whatever you pick, everyone should agree that shot placement is key. Doesn't matter what you are using, or how much penetration you get, if you can't hit the fucker who's standing at the other end of the hallway (and that's only if you have kids to protect. If not, why are you leaving your bedroom looking for trouble?) After all, you shouldn't be pulling the trigger unless you are 100% certain your rounds are hitting center mass of the bag guy anyways, right?
But I digress. We have already answered the posters question, which was HIS two choices, shotgun, or AR. His situation was resolved, we should start a new thread if you want to continue debating more useless crap, like if you need hard or soft body armor next to your bed.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
You guys can jump my shit all you want, I don't care. The OP asked why one was better than another and I offered what I think is a valid consideration when deciding how to best defend ones home. His whole premise starts with having an aggressor in your home, otherwise it wouldn't be home defense. It wasn't a question of what fucks people up best when you shoot them with it. My point was that with a single trigger pull / single projectile (pistol/carbine) you have more control over what/who you shoot than with a shotgun. There's a reason why LE across the nation are going from shotguns to carbines. It's not because of lethality, its because of liability. If you can deploy a shotgun in your home and blast away without caring, then rock on. I was trying to offer the OP a perspective he probably hadn't thought of because if he had, he wouldn't have had to ask the question in the first place.
You guys can jump my shit all you want, I don't care. The OP asked why one was better than another and I offered what I think is a valid consideration when deciding how to best defend ones home. His whole premise starts with having an aggressor in your home, otherwise it wouldn't be home defense. It wasn't a question of what fucks people up best when you shoot them with it. My point was that with a single trigger pull / single projectile (pistol/carbine) you have more control over what/who you shoot than with a shotgun. There's a reason why LE across the nation are going from shotguns to carbines. It's not because of lethality, its because of liability. If you can deploy a shotgun in your home and blast away without caring, then rock on. I was trying to offer the OP a perspective he probably hadn't thought of because if he had, he wouldn't have had to ask the question in the first place.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
"It's not because of lethality, its because of liability."
Sorry tpr564, I gotta go with pdogs regarding the shot spread at close distances. The term "scattergun" is really not appropriate. Please don't take offense, these are indeed only opinions. But there are valid concerns of pistol/carbine overpenetration vs. shotgun overpentration. And yes shotguns penetrate quite a bit too, depending on load. It's all valid discussion. I'm a long time LEO myself and I spent many a year as a hunting guide (shotgun). They all can be devastating. There are a lot of factors concerning law enforcement's switch to carbines/AR's, but it really seems that the primary driving factor is their lack of recoil compared to a shotgun. Most coppers being surprisingly "non-gunney", this helps achieve better results and less complaints about training. I guess it could be said the same benefit could apply to the average homeowner too. We could go on and on........
But no need, thank you for your opinion too.
"It's not because of lethality, its because of liability."
Sorry tpr564, I gotta go with pdogs regarding the shot spread at close distances. The term "scattergun" is really not appropriate. Please don't take offense, these are indeed only opinions. But there are valid concerns of pistol/carbine overpenetration vs. shotgun overpentration. And yes shotguns penetrate quite a bit too, depending on load. It's all valid discussion. I'm a long time LEO myself and I spent many a year as a hunting guide (shotgun). They all can be devastating. There are a lot of factors concerning law enforcement's switch to carbines/AR's, but it really seems that the primary driving factor is their lack of recoil compared to a shotgun. Most coppers being surprisingly "non-gunney", this helps achieve better results and less complaints about training. I guess it could be said the same benefit could apply to the average homeowner too. We could go on and on........
But no need, thank you for your opinion too.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Get ready for a long winded response that goes well beyond the answer to your question, but will hopefully give you a great deal of information. To those TL;DR types, shotgun is the only home defense weapon I will use. Rifle and pistol rounds go too far if you miss. To the bird shot comment, I've been peppered with some idiots distant bird shot on 3 occasions hunting frozen lakes, all 3 times it didn't even penetrate my winter wear. Alternate 00 buck and slugs in your magazine and keep it locked/loaded with safety on before you go to bed every night. If you have kids, get the idea of home defense with guns out of your mind unless you have a very thorough plan. Too many times people get their family killed/tortured/raped trying to play the role of hero because they bought a pistol and went to the indoor range every 6 months. Now for the long part, my home security expertise:
Overwhelming majority of B&E's occur during sleep hours by people with zero motivation to actually harm the people living in the home. Are you going to be able to wake up, grab your gun, find them, aim, shoot in the time the person breaking in can get to you or a member of your family? Really time yourself and practice things like this. Have someone wake you up from a dead sleep in the middle of the night and run the clock. If you can't handily beat the clock in a groggy state of mind hands down then having a home defense weapon is a waste and just increases your chances of something awful happening to your family or you in the event of a B&E.
Your best home defense is having a plan. Exiting the house is job 1. Contingency plans need to be hiding places that can be accessed quickly and silently with a GPS located cell phone dialed to 911. Confrontation should be your last ditch effort, with firearms behind that.
My mom and dad did this with my little sister and I growing up. Dad was in the teams and had his shit together. Whether it was fire, tornadoes, break-ins, floods, there was always a plan we knew with any number of contingencies. We also practiced it at least monthly to make sure we knew what to do. My dad would always quiz my sister and I throwing the ever present Mr. Murphy where we had to think fast about how to react. It's a trend I've continued, spread to the family I love now, and considered when setting up my home.
For those of you with the nothing to lose attitude and small houses in the middle of nowhere, here's my strategy and why:
I have a 1/5 acre lot in a closely built 1950s suburban neighborhood .25 miles to the downtown of my city. Police, fire and medical help are all within seconds of getting my address from a dispatcher. I've already limited my exposure by proximity to response.
My home is a 1600 sq. foot bungalow with a dormer on the back of the house. My main floor is easily accessible with a glass door wall in the back and multiple windows large enough for a person to get through in a hurry. Solution: privacy fence to hide the door wall from sight of people casing the neighborhood. And keep your shades at the front of the house mostly drawn to prevent visibility at what you have inside and the layout. The biggest advantage you have in a break in is that it’s your house and they don't know where they're going. Anyways the glass door walls are very inviting targets since their locks suck and you can typically derail the whole door portion with minimal noise. If my house ever got broken into that would be the most likely point of entry for that and its isolation from any neighbors seeing the act. I also have steel core doors and overbuilt frames around the additional entrances.
Next step, 95 lb. Rhodesian Ridgeback security dog and "WARNING SECURITY DOG" sign the door wall warning of such. The sign is not gaudy or something people see when they're driving/walking through the neighborhood who may wonder what I feel the need to secure, however there's no way to miss it once you get to the back yard no matter how dark it is.
If someone ignores the sign, gets through the door without alerting me, I know my dog will wake me and there will be quite a commotion buying my family precious seconds. (to any experienced dog owners out there I’ve had about every breed you can think of, screw German Shepherds/Belgian Malinois, I'll never have any other dog breed the rest of my life. To quote Animal Planet, Ridgeback’s are truly the Navy SEALs of dogs) Once alerted my lady knows exactly where to go hide her phone is bedside fully charged and programmed to GPS trace with 911. If you've never been in my house before, you could ransack the place and never find her.
So assuming all this has failed so far, B&E really wants my stuff or is just a creep out for blood. Now comes my favorite part of my renovation efforts - my Alamo master suite. Because of the small size of my place there is no reasonable exit without confrontation in the event of a break in. The entire upper floor is the master suite, but it has a very unique twist. I walled off one entire side of the stairway exit and turned it into the walk in closet to the bedroom portion of the house. Around the stairwell are wooden pillars obstructing movement without vision upstairs but allowing me to see pretty clearly. Essentially said perp will have to run up a flight of 20+ steps with his back to me, make a 180* turn, run down another alleyway of 10+ yards on the opposite side of the bungalow portion, and then try and find us in the bedroom/bathroom area.
During that time if the perp is still coming for us or if he's hurt/killed my dog I'm actually threatened. At this point I am now defending my life and setup semi prone hidden by a sectional in the unassuming library/sitting area on the other end of the bungalow portion of the house. It's like a shooting gallery at the county fair and my Remington 870 and Surefire X400 will get the job done. If he is still moving when he gets to me . . . well I leave the handgun for Sarah if she's ever found and make her shoot two clips a month with me at the range, plus with my background I prefer bladed weapons for CQB and have plenty throughout my house.
Now the most important part, the legal ramifications, I live in Michigan and we have castle doctrine where violent crime in your home is defendable with deadly force. All I need to tell the officer is that said perp declared they were going to kill me and I'm in the clear. It's critical to check with your local and state laws though so you know what to expect after the fact and don't end up sending yourself to jail because you said the wrong thing in the adrenaline pumping heat of the moment. Even so, I've always lived by the motto that I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.
If you bothered reading this you can tell I put a significant amount of thought and months of work into the setup of my home. I don't think someone should have to compromise on the subject of security and comfort. It is my castle, I hope I'll never have to defend it, but if I do I am confident we'll be all right.
Happy home defense Sniper's Hide. Prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance.
Get ready for a long winded response that goes well beyond the answer to your question, but will hopefully give you a great deal of information. To those TL;DR types, shotgun is the only home defense weapon I will use. Rifle and pistol rounds go too far if you miss. To the bird shot comment, I've been peppered with some idiots distant bird shot on 3 occasions hunting frozen lakes, all 3 times it didn't even penetrate my winter wear. Alternate 00 buck and slugs in your magazine and keep it locked/loaded with safety on before you go to bed every night. If you have kids, get the idea of home defense with guns out of your mind unless you have a very thorough plan. Too many times people get their family killed/tortured/raped trying to play the role of hero because they bought a pistol and went to the indoor range every 6 months. Now for the long part, my home security expertise:
Overwhelming majority of B&E's occur during sleep hours by people with zero motivation to actually harm the people living in the home. Are you going to be able to wake up, grab your gun, find them, aim, shoot in the time the person breaking in can get to you or a member of your family? Really time yourself and practice things like this. Have someone wake you up from a dead sleep in the middle of the night and run the clock. If you can't handily beat the clock in a groggy state of mind hands down then having a home defense weapon is a waste and just increases your chances of something awful happening to your family or you in the event of a B&E.
Your best home defense is having a plan. Exiting the house is job 1. Contingency plans need to be hiding places that can be accessed quickly and silently with a GPS located cell phone dialed to 911. Confrontation should be your last ditch effort, with firearms behind that.
My mom and dad did this with my little sister and I growing up. Dad was in the teams and had his shit together. Whether it was fire, tornadoes, break-ins, floods, there was always a plan we knew with any number of contingencies. We also practiced it at least monthly to make sure we knew what to do. My dad would always quiz my sister and I throwing the ever present Mr. Murphy where we had to think fast about how to react. It's a trend I've continued, spread to the family I love now, and considered when setting up my home.
For those of you with the nothing to lose attitude and small houses in the middle of nowhere, here's my strategy and why:
I have a 1/5 acre lot in a closely built 1950s suburban neighborhood .25 miles to the downtown of my city. Police, fire and medical help are all within seconds of getting my address from a dispatcher. I've already limited my exposure by proximity to response.
My home is a 1600 sq. foot bungalow with a dormer on the back of the house. My main floor is easily accessible with a glass door wall in the back and multiple windows large enough for a person to get through in a hurry. Solution: privacy fence to hide the door wall from sight of people casing the neighborhood. And keep your shades at the front of the house mostly drawn to prevent visibility at what you have inside and the layout. The biggest advantage you have in a break in is that it’s your house and they don't know where they're going. Anyways the glass door walls are very inviting targets since their locks suck and you can typically derail the whole door portion with minimal noise. If my house ever got broken into that would be the most likely point of entry for that and its isolation from any neighbors seeing the act. I also have steel core doors and overbuilt frames around the additional entrances.
Next step, 95 lb. Rhodesian Ridgeback security dog and "WARNING SECURITY DOG" sign the door wall warning of such. The sign is not gaudy or something people see when they're driving/walking through the neighborhood who may wonder what I feel the need to secure, however there's no way to miss it once you get to the back yard no matter how dark it is.
If someone ignores the sign, gets through the door without alerting me, I know my dog will wake me and there will be quite a commotion buying my family precious seconds. (to any experienced dog owners out there I’ve had about every breed you can think of, screw German Shepherds/Belgian Malinois, I'll never have any other dog breed the rest of my life. To quote Animal Planet, Ridgeback’s are truly the Navy SEALs of dogs) Once alerted my lady knows exactly where to go hide her phone is bedside fully charged and programmed to GPS trace with 911. If you've never been in my house before, you could ransack the place and never find her.
So assuming all this has failed so far, B&E really wants my stuff or is just a creep out for blood. Now comes my favorite part of my renovation efforts - my Alamo master suite. Because of the small size of my place there is no reasonable exit without confrontation in the event of a break in. The entire upper floor is the master suite, but it has a very unique twist. I walled off one entire side of the stairway exit and turned it into the walk in closet to the bedroom portion of the house. Around the stairwell are wooden pillars obstructing movement without vision upstairs but allowing me to see pretty clearly. Essentially said perp will have to run up a flight of 20+ steps with his back to me, make a 180* turn, run down another alleyway of 10+ yards on the opposite side of the bungalow portion, and then try and find us in the bedroom/bathroom area.
During that time if the perp is still coming for us or if he's hurt/killed my dog I'm actually threatened. At this point I am now defending my life and setup semi prone hidden by a sectional in the unassuming library/sitting area on the other end of the bungalow portion of the house. It's like a shooting gallery at the county fair and my Remington 870 and Surefire X400 will get the job done. If he is still moving when he gets to me . . . well I leave the handgun for Sarah if she's ever found and make her shoot two clips a month with me at the range, plus with my background I prefer bladed weapons for CQB and have plenty throughout my house.
Now the most important part, the legal ramifications, I live in Michigan and we have castle doctrine where violent crime in your home is defendable with deadly force. All I need to tell the officer is that said perp declared they were going to kill me and I'm in the clear. It's critical to check with your local and state laws though so you know what to expect after the fact and don't end up sending yourself to jail because you said the wrong thing in the adrenaline pumping heat of the moment. Even so, I've always lived by the motto that I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.
If you bothered reading this you can tell I put a significant amount of thought and months of work into the setup of my home. I don't think someone should have to compromise on the subject of security and comfort. It is my castle, I hope I'll never have to defend it, but if I do I am confident we'll be all right.
Happy home defense Sniper's Hide. Prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
mossberg 500 smooth bore slug barrel,7 round mag tube.keep it loaded with 00,slug,00,so on and so fourth.keep right next to bed,sig 220 and glock 26 not far away.no houses very close to me so i'm not worried about over penatration.not much out there that will stop an attack 50 yards and in like 12 gauge with 00 or slug.i want the invasion over as quick as possible and i hope to win.i believe a 12 guage gives me the best chance.
mossberg 500 smooth bore slug barrel,7 round mag tube.keep it loaded with 00,slug,00,so on and so fourth.keep right next to bed,sig 220 and glock 26 not far away.no houses very close to me so i'm not worried about over penatration.not much out there that will stop an attack 50 yards and in like 12 gauge with 00 or slug.i want the invasion over as quick as possible and i hope to win.i believe a 12 guage gives me the best chance.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
To each his own, use what works for you. Like I said, I was just trying to give the OP something to consider. God bless.
To each his own, use what works for you. Like I said, I was just trying to give the OP something to consider. God bless.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zinny</div><div class="ubbcode-body">an instructor at a range once told me the best home defense combination is a shotgun with bird shot. low recoil, low penetration, wide spread, makes it perfect for home defense. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your instructor is full of shit.
Ask someone who has some experience with birdshot wounds on humans.
This question comes up time and time again on various forums. At one point I wrote a very long and detailed response. Something I am just not in the mood to repeat today.
The folks that ask "this vs. that" need to keep in mind the experience level of the folks giving the answers. You can bet that the majority of answers you get on the internet are regurgitated from something read/heard elsewhere. Few, if any will have actually trained with shotgun, rifle and pistol in live fire CQB. </div></div>
<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #FF0000">No worrys John I got ya.</span></span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am wrong I am wrong, but I can't correct my ignorance without positive data to replace it.
Here is the problem with the HD argument.
First, folks want a black and white answer. The world is NOT black and white. It's varying shades of gray splattered with blood red.
If someone asks me in person what they should get for a home defense weapon, I automatically answer it with a series of questions. Most of the time the person is asking me because they have little firearms experience and are confused by the vast array of choices at the gun counter. For those folks ballistics don't matter. Magazine capacity doesn't matter. In fact the courtroom doesn't even matter because in order to make it to that stage you have to first survive the violent encounter. For them I usually suggest a .38 or .357 revolver. This is also actually my "last line" weapon because they are inexpensive, easily stashed and when you are broken and bleeding they are easy to jam in the gut and pull the trigger until it goes "click".
Now if a service member is asking me the same question, almost 99.99% of the time if they have had any exposure to the M16 family of weapons, I suggest a light AR with a weapon light. They already have some familiarity with the weapon and a long gun WILL be more accurate than a pistol even in close quarters. I have seen this time and time again in force on force training. The AR is a simple weapon to operate and if a quality example is bought and quality ammunition used, the chances of a malfunction are extremely low. If the homeowner decides on an AR I highly suggest that they take a basic carbine class to familiarize themselves with clearing malfunctions and drills that the military tends to miss.
If the homeowner is a hunter and has a couple good shotguns laying about, then the answer is extremely simple. Load up some reduced recoil 00 buck and roll. It's a proven manstopper, won't thump your shoulder and in reality some of the monster 3" loads guys like just aren't necessary. If the shotgun is an autoloader then the chosen defensive load should be verified for function. Patterning can be done but really at CQB distances a cylinder bore is still going to be very tight. If the shotgun is a pump I suggest that the operator knows how to clear a double feed and that they get some dummy shells or spend some quality time every couple of weeks blowing some birdshot through it. Folks have been known to short-stroke pumps under stress. I have done it when I push for maximum speed on the scattergun.
Do you have a house full of kids that you may need to round up? Then a pistol may be a better choice. It's a lot easier to manipulate a flashlight, lightswitch, doorknob, etc. with a pistol than with a shotgun or rifle. Carrying younguns is also easier with a one handed blaster.
Now we come to the crux of the problem. Every alpha male likes to see themselves as the action hero flowing through the house and getting the drop on the badguy. The cold hard truth is it takes a professional more than a year of steady training before they become comfortable and proficient in clearing a house in a team environment. As an individual it is an almost impossible task. SWAT teams train to never go into a room alone. How many team members will you have at 0-dark-thirty to clear your house?
Walk through your house tonight and find the choke point between the entry and the bedrooms. That is your Thermopylae. That is where you need to be able to cover and prevent anyone from passing. You don't need to go protect your TV or your XBox. You need to protect living bodies. If you live in an apartment, then make sure you can quickly barricade the door to the bedroom and make a stand there. Have access to a land line and a cell phone. If you call 911 by cell the first thing out of your mouth should be the address. That way if something happens before you can explain the problem the po-po are rolling to you. Cell phone callers suck at this and very frequently a hot run comes in and police have to spend an hour trying to figure out where in the several square miles around a cell tower the call actually came from.
If you decide that you are too much of a man to bunker in place or your stuff is worth more than your life, then you need to get some professional training on close quarters battle with your chosen weapon. I would also suggest you invest in some armor and make sure your insurance policy is paid. Home invaders are getting better armed. Even a ratty stolen SKS can do a number on you, your Galls used body armor and your pile of Tactical Gear.
In the end it's not about what you choose. It's about how you choose to use it and how proficient you are with executing the plan. No plan survives first contact, so have a contingency for that.
Lastly, everyone worries about the legal aspects. To get to the legal aspects you have to SURVIVE THE ENCOUNTER. I am not an attorney and I don't profess to know all the legal precedents set around the country regarding lethal force encounters. I can tell you I am not aware of a single legitimate burglary/home invasion in my area where a homeowner has shot and seriously injured the criminal and been successfully sued OR charged with a crime. By legitimate I mean drugs were not involved and the criminal did not have a prior relationship with the "victim". I don't know offhand what states still have a "duty to retreat" law on the books. Most have gone the other way and enacted "castle doctrine". This basically states that you may legally assume that someone breaking into your residence intends to do you bodily harm and you may defend yourself up to and including lethal force. Some states have extended this to occupied vehicles and businesses. In either case, if you remember that lethal force is only to be used to prevent serious bodily harm to you or another and is a last resort, then you have done all you can. At that point AK or grandpops H&R isn't going to matter.
Civil litigation is a whole nother ball of wax and anyone can be sued for anything. Hire a good lawyer and know that you did the right thing. Some states have laws to prevent a lawsuit in the event the shooting was justified. Some lawsuits can be shot down rather quickly. Only you and your lawyer will be able to make an accurate determination on how to proceed based on your specific situation.
A shooting is messy. There isn't any way to make it all "skittles and sunshine". The political climate of where you live will have bearing on how the investigation goes.
If you are involved in a self defense shooting in your home, you may be handcuffed. You will be questioned. Your weapon will be seized. You may be made to feel like a criminal instead of a victim. It's not on purpose it's just the way it goes. This is where that "last resort" thing comes in. If you KNOW it was you or them, then there is no turmoil. You will know that you did what you had to do to continue to breath or to protect your family. If you shot someone because you were worried they were going to steal your TV, you may experience a little more stress.
You may always invoke your Miranda Rights and remain silent when questioned. Depending on the circumstances this may be a good idea until you have spoken with a lawyer. However this also may lead to you being placed under arrest and charged. If the detectives can't gather enough information to determine if the shooting was justified then you may find yourself in custody until you and your lawyer can talk to a judge. I have a lawyer I can contact 24/7 if I am involved in a lethal force situation. It's one of the perks of my professional organization. It may be a good idea to seek out a lawyer and spend some money for his advice before you find yourself in this type of situation.
As you can see, there isn't a simple "get a shotgun" type answer. I could tell you to get a belt-fed machine gun, but it doesn't prepare you for the situation any more than a baseball bat.
We can talk ballistics all day long. Gelatin blocks are cool. So is blowing up wallboard. However it's not a block of gel that's going to break into your house, rape your dog, kill your wife and steal your TV. It's easy to kill a human. It's hard to kill them fast. Learning to do it can take a lifetime. How long that is, is up to you.
What I use for HD is immaterial. Everything I have at my disposal I have trained with extensively. Not many folks are in the same boat. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not much is scarier than hearing the cocking of a shotgun when you know you aint doing anything legal.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's also a great way to loose reactionary time. Get behind the OODA loop and orient the enemy to your location.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you ever seen what birdshot will do to the human body from close distances? </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More times than I care to remember. The only time I saw it actually cause an immediate incapacitation was when it was placed squarely against the bottom of the jaw and angled upward through the soft palate into the cranial vault. Not only was it instant, but it also did not exit. So unless you are planning on delivering a Ninja contact shot to the soft structures of the head I would chuck that idea. Clothing and distance will all but eliminate the possibility of anything other than a wounding shot. We have had folks walking around the ER that have taken a face full of shot.
If you have experience counter to this, please let me know. I would be happy to hear the county and approximate date so I can pull the information. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zinny</div><div class="ubbcode-body">an instructor at a range once told me the best home defense combination is a shotgun with bird shot. low recoil, low penetration, wide spread, makes it perfect for home defense. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your instructor is full of shit.
Ask someone who has some experience with birdshot wounds on humans.
This question comes up time and time again on various forums. At one point I wrote a very long and detailed response. Something I am just not in the mood to repeat today.
The folks that ask "this vs. that" need to keep in mind the experience level of the folks giving the answers. You can bet that the majority of answers you get on the internet are regurgitated from something read/heard elsewhere. Few, if any will have actually trained with shotgun, rifle and pistol in live fire CQB. </div></div>
<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #FF0000">No worrys John I got ya.</span></span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am wrong I am wrong, but I can't correct my ignorance without positive data to replace it.
Here is the problem with the HD argument.
First, folks want a black and white answer. The world is NOT black and white. It's varying shades of gray splattered with blood red.
If someone asks me in person what they should get for a home defense weapon, I automatically answer it with a series of questions. Most of the time the person is asking me because they have little firearms experience and are confused by the vast array of choices at the gun counter. For those folks ballistics don't matter. Magazine capacity doesn't matter. In fact the courtroom doesn't even matter because in order to make it to that stage you have to first survive the violent encounter. For them I usually suggest a .38 or .357 revolver. This is also actually my "last line" weapon because they are inexpensive, easily stashed and when you are broken and bleeding they are easy to jam in the gut and pull the trigger until it goes "click".
Now if a service member is asking me the same question, almost 99.99% of the time if they have had any exposure to the M16 family of weapons, I suggest a light AR with a weapon light. They already have some familiarity with the weapon and a long gun WILL be more accurate than a pistol even in close quarters. I have seen this time and time again in force on force training. The AR is a simple weapon to operate and if a quality example is bought and quality ammunition used, the chances of a malfunction are extremely low. If the homeowner decides on an AR I highly suggest that they take a basic carbine class to familiarize themselves with clearing malfunctions and drills that the military tends to miss.
If the homeowner is a hunter and has a couple good shotguns laying about, then the answer is extremely simple. Load up some reduced recoil 00 buck and roll. It's a proven manstopper, won't thump your shoulder and in reality some of the monster 3" loads guys like just aren't necessary. If the shotgun is an autoloader then the chosen defensive load should be verified for function. Patterning can be done but really at CQB distances a cylinder bore is still going to be very tight. If the shotgun is a pump I suggest that the operator knows how to clear a double feed and that they get some dummy shells or spend some quality time every couple of weeks blowing some birdshot through it. Folks have been known to short-stroke pumps under stress. I have done it when I push for maximum speed on the scattergun.
Do you have a house full of kids that you may need to round up? Then a pistol may be a better choice. It's a lot easier to manipulate a flashlight, lightswitch, doorknob, etc. with a pistol than with a shotgun or rifle. Carrying younguns is also easier with a one handed blaster.
Now we come to the crux of the problem. Every alpha male likes to see themselves as the action hero flowing through the house and getting the drop on the badguy. The cold hard truth is it takes a professional more than a year of steady training before they become comfortable and proficient in clearing a house in a team environment. As an individual it is an almost impossible task. SWAT teams train to never go into a room alone. How many team members will you have at 0-dark-thirty to clear your house?
Walk through your house tonight and find the choke point between the entry and the bedrooms. That is your Thermopylae. That is where you need to be able to cover and prevent anyone from passing. You don't need to go protect your TV or your XBox. You need to protect living bodies. If you live in an apartment, then make sure you can quickly barricade the door to the bedroom and make a stand there. Have access to a land line and a cell phone. If you call 911 by cell the first thing out of your mouth should be the address. That way if something happens before you can explain the problem the po-po are rolling to you. Cell phone callers suck at this and very frequently a hot run comes in and police have to spend an hour trying to figure out where in the several square miles around a cell tower the call actually came from.
If you decide that you are too much of a man to bunker in place or your stuff is worth more than your life, then you need to get some professional training on close quarters battle with your chosen weapon. I would also suggest you invest in some armor and make sure your insurance policy is paid. Home invaders are getting better armed. Even a ratty stolen SKS can do a number on you, your Galls used body armor and your pile of Tactical Gear.
In the end it's not about what you choose. It's about how you choose to use it and how proficient you are with executing the plan. No plan survives first contact, so have a contingency for that.
Lastly, everyone worries about the legal aspects. To get to the legal aspects you have to SURVIVE THE ENCOUNTER. I am not an attorney and I don't profess to know all the legal precedents set around the country regarding lethal force encounters. I can tell you I am not aware of a single legitimate burglary/home invasion in my area where a homeowner has shot and seriously injured the criminal and been successfully sued OR charged with a crime. By legitimate I mean drugs were not involved and the criminal did not have a prior relationship with the "victim". I don't know offhand what states still have a "duty to retreat" law on the books. Most have gone the other way and enacted "castle doctrine". This basically states that you may legally assume that someone breaking into your residence intends to do you bodily harm and you may defend yourself up to and including lethal force. Some states have extended this to occupied vehicles and businesses. In either case, if you remember that lethal force is only to be used to prevent serious bodily harm to you or another and is a last resort, then you have done all you can. At that point AK or grandpops H&R isn't going to matter.
Civil litigation is a whole nother ball of wax and anyone can be sued for anything. Hire a good lawyer and know that you did the right thing. Some states have laws to prevent a lawsuit in the event the shooting was justified. Some lawsuits can be shot down rather quickly. Only you and your lawyer will be able to make an accurate determination on how to proceed based on your specific situation.
A shooting is messy. There isn't any way to make it all "skittles and sunshine". The political climate of where you live will have bearing on how the investigation goes.
If you are involved in a self defense shooting in your home, you may be handcuffed. You will be questioned. Your weapon will be seized. You may be made to feel like a criminal instead of a victim. It's not on purpose it's just the way it goes. This is where that "last resort" thing comes in. If you KNOW it was you or them, then there is no turmoil. You will know that you did what you had to do to continue to breath or to protect your family. If you shot someone because you were worried they were going to steal your TV, you may experience a little more stress.
You may always invoke your Miranda Rights and remain silent when questioned. Depending on the circumstances this may be a good idea until you have spoken with a lawyer. However this also may lead to you being placed under arrest and charged. If the detectives can't gather enough information to determine if the shooting was justified then you may find yourself in custody until you and your lawyer can talk to a judge. I have a lawyer I can contact 24/7 if I am involved in a lethal force situation. It's one of the perks of my professional organization. It may be a good idea to seek out a lawyer and spend some money for his advice before you find yourself in this type of situation.
As you can see, there isn't a simple "get a shotgun" type answer. I could tell you to get a belt-fed machine gun, but it doesn't prepare you for the situation any more than a baseball bat.
We can talk ballistics all day long. Gelatin blocks are cool. So is blowing up wallboard. However it's not a block of gel that's going to break into your house, rape your dog, kill your wife and steal your TV. It's easy to kill a human. It's hard to kill them fast. Learning to do it can take a lifetime. How long that is, is up to you.
What I use for HD is immaterial. Everything I have at my disposal I have trained with extensively. Not many folks are in the same boat. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not much is scarier than hearing the cocking of a shotgun when you know you aint doing anything legal.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's also a great way to loose reactionary time. Get behind the OODA loop and orient the enemy to your location.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you ever seen what birdshot will do to the human body from close distances? </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More times than I care to remember. The only time I saw it actually cause an immediate incapacitation was when it was placed squarely against the bottom of the jaw and angled upward through the soft palate into the cranial vault. Not only was it instant, but it also did not exit. So unless you are planning on delivering a Ninja contact shot to the soft structures of the head I would chuck that idea. Clothing and distance will all but eliminate the possibility of anything other than a wounding shot. We have had folks walking around the ER that have taken a face full of shot.
If you have experience counter to this, please let me know. I would be happy to hear the county and approximate date so I can pull the information. </div></div>
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Ak-47 with 14's and a PEQ-2. I also installed IR lighting throughout my home that is on during hours of darkness.
Ak-47 with 14's and a PEQ-2. I also installed IR lighting throughout my home that is on during hours of darkness.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get ready for a long winded response that goes well beyond the answer to your question, but will hopefully give you a great deal of information. To those TL;DR types, shotgun is the only home defense weapon I will use. Rifle and pistol rounds go too far if you miss. To the bird shot comment, I've been peppered with some idiots distant bird shot on 3 occasions hunting frozen lakes, all 3 times it didn't even penetrate my winter wear. Alternate 00 buck and slugs in your magazine and keep it locked/loaded with safety on before you go to bed every night. If you have kids, get the idea of home defense with guns out of your mind unless you have a very thorough plan. Too many times people get their family killed/tortured/raped trying to play the role of hero because they bought a pistol and went to the indoor range every 6 months. Now for the long part, my home security expertise:
Overwhelming majority of B&E's occur during sleep hours by people with zero motivation to actually harm the people living in the home. Are you going to be able to wake up, grab your gun, find them, aim, shoot in the time the person breaking in can get to you or a member of your family? Really time yourself and practice things like this. Have someone wake you up from a dead sleep in the middle of the night and run the clock. If you can't handily beat the clock in a groggy state of mind hands down then having a home defense weapon is a waste and just increases your chances of something awful happening to your family or you in the event of a B&E.
Your best home defense is having a plan. Exiting the house is job 1. Contingency plans need to be hiding places that can be accessed quickly and silently with a GPS located cell phone dialed to 911. Confrontation should be your last ditch effort, with firearms behind that.
My mom and dad did this with my little sister and I growing up. Dad was in the teams and had his shit together. Whether it was fire, tornadoes, break-ins, floods, there was always a plan we knew with any number of contingencies. We also practiced it at least monthly to make sure we knew what to do. My dad would always quiz my sister and I throwing the ever present Mr. Murphy where we had to think fast about how to react. It's a trend I've continued, spread to the family I love now, and considered when setting up my home.
For those of you with the nothing to lose attitude and small houses in the middle of nowhere, here's my strategy and why:
I have a 1/5 acre lot in a closely built 1950s suburban neighborhood .25 miles to the downtown of my city. Police, fire and medical help are all within seconds of getting my address from a dispatcher. I've already limited my exposure by proximity to response.
My home is a 1600 sq. foot bungalow with a dormer on the back of the house. My main floor is easily accessible with a glass door wall in the back and multiple windows large enough for a person to get through in a hurry. Solution: privacy fence to hide the door wall from sight of people casing the neighborhood. And keep your shades at the front of the house mostly drawn to prevent visibility at what you have inside and the layout. The biggest advantage you have in a break in is that it’s your house and they don't know where they're going. Anyways the glass door walls are very inviting targets since their locks suck and you can typically derail the whole door portion with minimal noise. If my house ever got broken into that would be the most likely point of entry for that and its isolation from any neighbors seeing the act. I also have steel core doors and overbuilt frames around the additional entrances.
Next step, 95 lb. Rhodesian Ridgeback security dog and "WARNING SECURITY DOG" sign the door wall warning of such. The sign is not gaudy or something people see when they're driving/walking through the neighborhood who may wonder what I feel the need to secure, however there's no way to miss it once you get to the back yard no matter how dark it is.
If someone ignores the sign, gets through the door without alerting me, I know my dog will wake me and there will be quite a commotion buying my family precious seconds. (to any experienced dog owners out there I’ve had about every breed you can think of, screw German Shepherds/Belgian Malinois, I'll never have any other dog breed the rest of my life. To quote Animal Planet, Ridgeback’s are truly the Navy SEALs of dogs) Once alerted my lady knows exactly where to go hide her phone is bedside fully charged and programmed to GPS trace with 911. If you've never been in my house before, you could ransack the place and never find her.
So assuming all this has failed so far, B&E really wants my stuff or is just a creep out for blood. Now comes my favorite part of my renovation efforts - my Alamo master suite. Because of the small size of my place there is no reasonable exit without confrontation in the event of a break in. The entire upper floor is the master suite, but it has a very unique twist. I walled off one entire side of the stairway exit and turned it into the walk in closet to the bedroom portion of the house. Around the stairwell are wooden pillars obstructing movement without vision upstairs but allowing me to see pretty clearly. Essentially said perp will have to run up a flight of 20+ steps with his back to me, make a 180* turn, run down another alleyway of 10+ yards on the opposite side of the bungalow portion, and then try and find us in the bedroom/bathroom area.
During that time if the perp is still coming for us or if he's hurt/killed my dog I'm actually threatened. At this point I am now defending my life and setup semi prone hidden by a sectional in the unassuming library/sitting area on the other end of the bungalow portion of the house. It's like a shooting gallery at the county fair and my Remington 870 and Surefire X400 will get the job done. If he is still moving when he gets to me . . . well I leave the handgun for Sarah if she's ever found and make her shoot two clips a month with me at the range, plus with my background I prefer bladed weapons for CQB and have plenty throughout my house.
Now the most important part, the legal ramifications, I live in Michigan and we have castle doctrine where violent crime in your home is defendable with deadly force. All I need to tell the officer is that said perp declared they were going to kill me and I'm in the clear. It's critical to check with your local and state laws though so you know what to expect after the fact and don't end up sending yourself to jail because you said the wrong thing in the adrenaline pumping heat of the moment. Even so, I've always lived by the motto that I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.
If you bothered reading this you can tell I put a significant amount of thought and months of work into the setup of my home. I don't think someone should have to compromise on the subject of security and comfort. It is my castle, I hope I'll never have to defend it, but if I do I am confident we'll be all right.
Happy home defense Sniper's Hide. Prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance. </div></div>
Great read and PM Sent
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get ready for a long winded response that goes well beyond the answer to your question, but will hopefully give you a great deal of information. To those TL;DR types, shotgun is the only home defense weapon I will use. Rifle and pistol rounds go too far if you miss. To the bird shot comment, I've been peppered with some idiots distant bird shot on 3 occasions hunting frozen lakes, all 3 times it didn't even penetrate my winter wear. Alternate 00 buck and slugs in your magazine and keep it locked/loaded with safety on before you go to bed every night. If you have kids, get the idea of home defense with guns out of your mind unless you have a very thorough plan. Too many times people get their family killed/tortured/raped trying to play the role of hero because they bought a pistol and went to the indoor range every 6 months. Now for the long part, my home security expertise:
Overwhelming majority of B&E's occur during sleep hours by people with zero motivation to actually harm the people living in the home. Are you going to be able to wake up, grab your gun, find them, aim, shoot in the time the person breaking in can get to you or a member of your family? Really time yourself and practice things like this. Have someone wake you up from a dead sleep in the middle of the night and run the clock. If you can't handily beat the clock in a groggy state of mind hands down then having a home defense weapon is a waste and just increases your chances of something awful happening to your family or you in the event of a B&E.
Your best home defense is having a plan. Exiting the house is job 1. Contingency plans need to be hiding places that can be accessed quickly and silently with a GPS located cell phone dialed to 911. Confrontation should be your last ditch effort, with firearms behind that.
My mom and dad did this with my little sister and I growing up. Dad was in the teams and had his shit together. Whether it was fire, tornadoes, break-ins, floods, there was always a plan we knew with any number of contingencies. We also practiced it at least monthly to make sure we knew what to do. My dad would always quiz my sister and I throwing the ever present Mr. Murphy where we had to think fast about how to react. It's a trend I've continued, spread to the family I love now, and considered when setting up my home.
For those of you with the nothing to lose attitude and small houses in the middle of nowhere, here's my strategy and why:
I have a 1/5 acre lot in a closely built 1950s suburban neighborhood .25 miles to the downtown of my city. Police, fire and medical help are all within seconds of getting my address from a dispatcher. I've already limited my exposure by proximity to response.
My home is a 1600 sq. foot bungalow with a dormer on the back of the house. My main floor is easily accessible with a glass door wall in the back and multiple windows large enough for a person to get through in a hurry. Solution: privacy fence to hide the door wall from sight of people casing the neighborhood. And keep your shades at the front of the house mostly drawn to prevent visibility at what you have inside and the layout. The biggest advantage you have in a break in is that it’s your house and they don't know where they're going. Anyways the glass door walls are very inviting targets since their locks suck and you can typically derail the whole door portion with minimal noise. If my house ever got broken into that would be the most likely point of entry for that and its isolation from any neighbors seeing the act. I also have steel core doors and overbuilt frames around the additional entrances.
Next step, 95 lb. Rhodesian Ridgeback security dog and "WARNING SECURITY DOG" sign the door wall warning of such. The sign is not gaudy or something people see when they're driving/walking through the neighborhood who may wonder what I feel the need to secure, however there's no way to miss it once you get to the back yard no matter how dark it is.
If someone ignores the sign, gets through the door without alerting me, I know my dog will wake me and there will be quite a commotion buying my family precious seconds. (to any experienced dog owners out there I’ve had about every breed you can think of, screw German Shepherds/Belgian Malinois, I'll never have any other dog breed the rest of my life. To quote Animal Planet, Ridgeback’s are truly the Navy SEALs of dogs) Once alerted my lady knows exactly where to go hide her phone is bedside fully charged and programmed to GPS trace with 911. If you've never been in my house before, you could ransack the place and never find her.
So assuming all this has failed so far, B&E really wants my stuff or is just a creep out for blood. Now comes my favorite part of my renovation efforts - my Alamo master suite. Because of the small size of my place there is no reasonable exit without confrontation in the event of a break in. The entire upper floor is the master suite, but it has a very unique twist. I walled off one entire side of the stairway exit and turned it into the walk in closet to the bedroom portion of the house. Around the stairwell are wooden pillars obstructing movement without vision upstairs but allowing me to see pretty clearly. Essentially said perp will have to run up a flight of 20+ steps with his back to me, make a 180* turn, run down another alleyway of 10+ yards on the opposite side of the bungalow portion, and then try and find us in the bedroom/bathroom area.
During that time if the perp is still coming for us or if he's hurt/killed my dog I'm actually threatened. At this point I am now defending my life and setup semi prone hidden by a sectional in the unassuming library/sitting area on the other end of the bungalow portion of the house. It's like a shooting gallery at the county fair and my Remington 870 and Surefire X400 will get the job done. If he is still moving when he gets to me . . . well I leave the handgun for Sarah if she's ever found and make her shoot two clips a month with me at the range, plus with my background I prefer bladed weapons for CQB and have plenty throughout my house.
Now the most important part, the legal ramifications, I live in Michigan and we have castle doctrine where violent crime in your home is defendable with deadly force. All I need to tell the officer is that said perp declared they were going to kill me and I'm in the clear. It's critical to check with your local and state laws though so you know what to expect after the fact and don't end up sending yourself to jail because you said the wrong thing in the adrenaline pumping heat of the moment. Even so, I've always lived by the motto that I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.
If you bothered reading this you can tell I put a significant amount of thought and months of work into the setup of my home. I don't think someone should have to compromise on the subject of security and comfort. It is my castle, I hope I'll never have to defend it, but if I do I am confident we'll be all right.
Happy home defense Sniper's Hide. Prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance. </div></div>
Great read and PM Sent
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
I all for avoiding conflick.......except in my house. There is no way in hell am I'm going to run from anything in my own house.
My grandkids spend a lot of time here, I'm not worried about them but they often have their friends here whom I don't know so there are no loaded guns which would allow kids to have accidents.
Except my pocket revolver.
I don't use long guns, rifle or shotguns, for home defense. I carry a revolver in my pants pocket. Not likely my grandkids or their friends can get into my pocket without me knowing.
Long guns are often left somewhere else, and again you have the danger of kids getting to them. Not so with a gun in the pocket.
Really how many people set around with a rifle/shotgun laying across their lap while watching TV or playing on the computer? How fast can you get to the bedroom if your front door is suddenly kicked in?
I done enough building searches in my cop days to know that a long gun is in the way more then its not.
At night my pants are hung on the bed post, with in reach of me, but anyone one else has to climb over me to get to it. I'm a light sleeper.
My bed room is at the oppisite end of the house from my Grandkids. No way I'm going to lock my self in my bedroom.
As to "who's who". We keep night lights on. Mainly my wife's grow lights for her plants. I can certainly tell if the wonderer in my house is my grandkids or not.
I'm a light sleeper, its not hard to train youself to be alert when you wake up in the middle of the night. My granddaughter use to be a sleep walker. As soon as she moved out of her bedroom I was awake and watching her. I could watch her leave her bedroom and tell if it was a normal bath room trip or she had to be taken back to bed.
As mentioned, my house isnt that big, no where is the distance so great that its out of range of my 642 or my abilities with that little gun. Lots of practice comes into play and I do practice, with the sights and the laser sights.
But I'm not running from my house. Besides I live too far from town to be able to depend on the sheriff.
Again its relatively simple to train your self to be alert when you wake up instead of being drowsy. Best way is to get up when you wake up. Don't lay there keep pushing the snooze button and such.
I learned that in Vietnam. When someone passes you the watch for your turn at guarding you position, if you lay there, you'll go back to sleep, if you get up as soon as you get the watch, you can stay up and alert. Seen it time and time again.
This is necessary not only for HD, but sick kids, fires, or any other activities that occur at night.
But as soon as someone tells me to have a plan to run, or desert my home, I cringe.
I do agree that training is the key. It dosn't take much, I dry fire several hours a week. Love the laser sight on my 642. I can set on my comfortable couch, empty the gun and dry fire at the targets I have scattered trough out my house. I have a hostage target hanging on my granddaughters bedroom door just for dry firing. Not hard to keep the red dot on the bad guy section of the target.
Got the same target in my shop, constantly dry firing out there too. My shop also has a window (opens up to my range) I used for testing guns or shooting when its too cold to go outside. I hang the target there too for live fire.
As a side benifit, all the practice with my little 642 really helps with my other, heavier pistol/revolvers.
I realize not all situations are the same, not all people are the same. To many people just wont put in the the time and effort to train with a pistol or revolver. Maybe for them a long gun is best, or maybe even running and let 911 protect you. 20 years in LE taught me that if you want a crime investigated, call 911, if you want to prevent a crime, get a revolver (or pistol).
I all for avoiding conflick.......except in my house. There is no way in hell am I'm going to run from anything in my own house.
My grandkids spend a lot of time here, I'm not worried about them but they often have their friends here whom I don't know so there are no loaded guns which would allow kids to have accidents.
Except my pocket revolver.
I don't use long guns, rifle or shotguns, for home defense. I carry a revolver in my pants pocket. Not likely my grandkids or their friends can get into my pocket without me knowing.
Long guns are often left somewhere else, and again you have the danger of kids getting to them. Not so with a gun in the pocket.
Really how many people set around with a rifle/shotgun laying across their lap while watching TV or playing on the computer? How fast can you get to the bedroom if your front door is suddenly kicked in?
I done enough building searches in my cop days to know that a long gun is in the way more then its not.
At night my pants are hung on the bed post, with in reach of me, but anyone one else has to climb over me to get to it. I'm a light sleeper.
My bed room is at the oppisite end of the house from my Grandkids. No way I'm going to lock my self in my bedroom.
As to "who's who". We keep night lights on. Mainly my wife's grow lights for her plants. I can certainly tell if the wonderer in my house is my grandkids or not.
I'm a light sleeper, its not hard to train youself to be alert when you wake up in the middle of the night. My granddaughter use to be a sleep walker. As soon as she moved out of her bedroom I was awake and watching her. I could watch her leave her bedroom and tell if it was a normal bath room trip or she had to be taken back to bed.
As mentioned, my house isnt that big, no where is the distance so great that its out of range of my 642 or my abilities with that little gun. Lots of practice comes into play and I do practice, with the sights and the laser sights.
But I'm not running from my house. Besides I live too far from town to be able to depend on the sheriff.
Again its relatively simple to train your self to be alert when you wake up instead of being drowsy. Best way is to get up when you wake up. Don't lay there keep pushing the snooze button and such.
I learned that in Vietnam. When someone passes you the watch for your turn at guarding you position, if you lay there, you'll go back to sleep, if you get up as soon as you get the watch, you can stay up and alert. Seen it time and time again.
This is necessary not only for HD, but sick kids, fires, or any other activities that occur at night.
But as soon as someone tells me to have a plan to run, or desert my home, I cringe.
I do agree that training is the key. It dosn't take much, I dry fire several hours a week. Love the laser sight on my 642. I can set on my comfortable couch, empty the gun and dry fire at the targets I have scattered trough out my house. I have a hostage target hanging on my granddaughters bedroom door just for dry firing. Not hard to keep the red dot on the bad guy section of the target.
Got the same target in my shop, constantly dry firing out there too. My shop also has a window (opens up to my range) I used for testing guns or shooting when its too cold to go outside. I hang the target there too for live fire.
As a side benifit, all the practice with my little 642 really helps with my other, heavier pistol/revolvers.
I realize not all situations are the same, not all people are the same. To many people just wont put in the the time and effort to train with a pistol or revolver. Maybe for them a long gun is best, or maybe even running and let 911 protect you. 20 years in LE taught me that if you want a crime investigated, call 911, if you want to prevent a crime, get a revolver (or pistol).
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
I go with the classics: Rem 870, buckshot, and a Smith and Wesson revolver.
As for Birdshot, RANGE is the issue. At 20 inches it works real good. At 20 yards, not so much.
Hundreds of people die each year shot a round of 6s that were left in the Pheasant gun. These are usually 20 inch (or less) encounters--often suicide.
As an intentional choice, I could construct a scenario where it might be appropriate. Reality is a bitch though, and may not comply with your plans. . . . .
Which is why i use Buckshot (and have 5 slugs on the buttstock)
BMT
I go with the classics: Rem 870, buckshot, and a Smith and Wesson revolver.
As for Birdshot, RANGE is the issue. At 20 inches it works real good. At 20 yards, not so much.
Hundreds of people die each year shot a round of 6s that were left in the Pheasant gun. These are usually 20 inch (or less) encounters--often suicide.
As an intentional choice, I could construct a scenario where it might be appropriate. Reality is a bitch though, and may not comply with your plans. . . . .
Which is why i use Buckshot (and have 5 slugs on the buttstock)
BMT
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
Dog
I have young kids, all my guns are locked away and ammo is all out garage- locked up as well.
My dog looks like a big-ol snuggle butt (he is) but he'll also tear a piece off of anything dumb enough to come in the house unwelcome. Plus he has the bark that would put a hell-hound to shame, wakes me and puts poop in the pants of any would-be bad-guy. Right now my 1 yr old is sitting on that same dog as he tries to sleep in his favorite chair.
Dog
I have young kids, all my guns are locked away and ammo is all out garage- locked up as well.
My dog looks like a big-ol snuggle butt (he is) but he'll also tear a piece off of anything dumb enough to come in the house unwelcome. Plus he has the bark that would put a hell-hound to shame, wakes me and puts poop in the pants of any would-be bad-guy. Right now my 1 yr old is sitting on that same dog as he tries to sleep in his favorite chair.
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CSAR FE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tpr564</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't play COD, I'm a full time LEO and train regularly for failure drills and hostage/taker shooting. I was making a realistic point that I wouldn't even want to hit one of my children with the wad much less shot of any kind. Disciplined shooting means that you place your shots and they go where intended. They call it a "scatter gun" for a reason and in my personal opinion only, which is worth just as little as anyone else's here, a pistol or carbine is better than a shotgun when you have to be accountable for noncombatants. If you want to blow the shit out of stuff and don't care what else you hit a shotgun is awesome. </div></div>
I've read that when you get into a confrontation, much like someone breaking into your home and threatening your life, you lose the majority of your fine motor skills, which in turn causes your accuracy to decrease substantially. I, personally, think I would have more of a fighting chance with a shotgun in my hands than a pistol, but if the shit goes down, I'll take either one. Just my humble opinion. But I don't have kids to worry about, either. </div></div>
This is typicaly ture but Christmas day I was attacked by a dog and I'm pretty sure I had my adrenaline pumping and I still managed to pop off two head shots on that d*mn dog. Then again it was pretty much point blank but the keltec p32 has no real sights just a point and shoot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CSAR FE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tpr564</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't play COD, I'm a full time LEO and train regularly for failure drills and hostage/taker shooting. I was making a realistic point that I wouldn't even want to hit one of my children with the wad much less shot of any kind. Disciplined shooting means that you place your shots and they go where intended. They call it a "scatter gun" for a reason and in my personal opinion only, which is worth just as little as anyone else's here, a pistol or carbine is better than a shotgun when you have to be accountable for noncombatants. If you want to blow the shit out of stuff and don't care what else you hit a shotgun is awesome. </div></div>
I've read that when you get into a confrontation, much like someone breaking into your home and threatening your life, you lose the majority of your fine motor skills, which in turn causes your accuracy to decrease substantially. I, personally, think I would have more of a fighting chance with a shotgun in my hands than a pistol, but if the shit goes down, I'll take either one. Just my humble opinion. But I don't have kids to worry about, either. </div></div>
This is typicaly ture but Christmas day I was attacked by a dog and I'm pretty sure I had my adrenaline pumping and I still managed to pop off two head shots on that d*mn dog. Then again it was pretty much point blank but the keltec p32 has no real sights just a point and shoot.
