AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

#151
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bellycrawl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Also, as to sight alignment, a pressure switch mounted fore end light works well for a sight system so no sight alignment needed. If intruder is in the beam, he will most likely get hit.

</div></div>


Outstanding - lemme guess....you're an "Instructor" too.
 
#152
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bellycrawl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shotgun is hard to beat followed by a handgun. I would even question standard capacity arguments some have presented when an AR is compared to a shotgun (unless they are packing a beta drum). I include shell capacity...so 9 pellet 00 buck x 8 shells in the gun = 72 round of around .32 caliber moving at 1300 - 1450 fps. Not bad for someone sleepy and alarmed in the middle of the night. </div></div>

...except that those 9 pellets are all being launched in the same direction at the same time, which means that if one misses, all of them are likely going to be misses. People hold to the belief that a shotgun magically multiplies their number of rounds, when in practical terms choosing a scattergun over a carbine drops the effective number of shots available by at least 60-70% (30 rifle rounds versus 5-9 shotgun rounds). If your front bead or front sight with either system is on the target's center mass when you break the trigger, you're probably going to score a disabling hit, regardless of how many theoretical projectiles hit the target. If the front sight isn't on when you fired, then you've just wasted about 10-20% of your available firepower if you have a shotgun...or 3% of your firepower if you have a rifle (reloads notwithstanding). Only hits count.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, as to sight alignment, a pressure switch mounted fore end light works well for a sight system so no sight alignment needed. If intruder is in the beam, he will most likely get hit. </div></div>

Well...maybe. It depends on the exact distance, the light reflector's dispersion, and it also assumes that your light is perfectly centered up with the line of flight from the muzzle. If you're counting on a shotgun to spread enough to cover the majority of the lit area at room distances, you're going to be massively disappointed when push comes to shove. Instinctive shooting from a shouldered long gun, where one sights down the barrel at the target, is likely going to be much more effective than just pointing the weaponlight towards the target.

Thing is, unless you've seriously practiced and tested out just how your shotgun patterns at different distances, using the light as an aiming method, you're effectively guessing...when you could just use the damn sights and know for sure.
 
#153
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

okuie, graham

Thankfully the UK is still a comparatively peaceful place. Random acts of extreme violence or armed home intrusion are still fairly rare.

But there is significant knife and firearms crime amongst certain age groups and ethnic groupings. We are seeing an increase in gang culture as well as violent crime related to incomers from different cultures. So the situation does seem to be changing steadily.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"Proporsionate/reasonable force" has always been an interesting concept to me. Exactly how do you determine what that is in the heat of the moment when light is low (at best) and you have just been awakened?
okie </div></div>

I agree that this is a key question....hence the example of the two guys in the UK.

Another case recently was brought against a home owner who disarmed an intruder armed with a kitchen knife and then killed the guy with his own knife during the ensuing struggle.

I believe the homeowner was charged with manslaughter (accidental homicide I guess you'd call it?)....

There is strong opinion in the UK that the law here needs to change as it seems to favour the intruder.

As a home owner confronting an "uninvited guest", not only do you have only moments to evaluate the situation and act, but you have to consider the possibility that the law will come down hard on you.

That is potentially a critical hindrance/deterent/psychological disadvantage to the homeowner.

Add to that (a) the stupidity of the intruder having the rightto sue the homeowner for compensation for any injuries sustained during their illegal enterprise and (b) increasingly long LE response times - often into hours, not minutes - suffered in most areas of the UK (rural or urban) and the idea of "reasonable force" becomes a minefield that will be pretty much determined by how good your lawyer is!
 
#154
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

IMHO, the best defense weapon is the one that you have/is most easily accessible. Ideally though, I would opt for any of my handguns, particularly my .45 automatics.

Inside of the house, depending on the terrain, using a long gun might not be as appropriate when it comes to pieing corners, remaining a small target and of course should you ever be close enough to any asshole that they have the opportunity to use the leverage of that significantly longer barrel to disarm you, God forbid. Terrain dictates. If it were a property issue outside of the house, I'd probably want a ranged weapon.
 
#155
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

No, not an official instructor and not a complete dissertation on home defense with a shotgun. Arbiter, your point in regards to pattern was well stated and very kind and not insulting, unlike others, so I thank you. But as to light, little to no light poses problems which is key to my defense. BTW, I run a Surefire 618 LMG which has a great focused center beam which is also key to using a light for sighting. Expensive...yes, but I spend money on lights. I worked law enforcement for ten years with time on 3rd watch. Lights are a must to identify threats and even give you a change at using sights.

As to practice, I have practiced this repeatedly at distances of 10 yards and in and in which is what I assumed for most home scenarios. I will go and shoot my shotgun this weekend to confirm, but I am almost positive, at 10 yards, I had a 6 or 7 inch pattern and around 3.5 inch pattern at 7 yards with Fiocchi OO. Not a huge difference but better than just a .223 chance.

To improve my speed and chances to get at least some of those pellets on target, I use a light. My center beam is spot on with my point shooting, even at 10 yards, so no need to align sights when seconds count. Perfect..no, but I have a hard time finding sights even with the fore end lighting up the target. I made an assumption that people would consider their backdrop (bedrooms and such) before squeezing the trigger on a 12 gauge or any weapon in a house. Again, I have tried to align sites in the dark and point shoot with little to no light...in my opinion very difficult but other may be able. Best case scenario for me was just what I communicated.

I have practiced and I recommend the same for anybody who is worried about home defense. Don't just by a gun and light and lay it beside the bed. By the gun and light and shoot it in conditions as close to what you fear. Also, unload the gun and walk around the house and see if you feel agile enough to carry a long gun. If what I communicate makes sense and stands the test of reason, then try it. If not, practice with something and protect your families.

Blessings!!
 
#156
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

Depends on the room I'm in at the time of the home invasion. My night stand gun is an FN FiveseveN. I do have an M4 in my room that I'm very proficient with and would not think twice about grabbing. I have an 870 in my man cave along with a ton of other guns. In the kitchen, glock 26. In the dining room glock 19. I'm always carrying or have access to a gun close by. I reload and practice with all of them on a regular. Today's range trip includes, M4, desert eagle, fn 57, makarov, and tec 9. Should be an exciting day. I say use what you use best and am most familiar. Nothing works better than that.
 
#157
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeathisCertain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it were a property issue outside of the house, I'd probably want a ranged weapon. </div></div>

Entertaining thoughts like this will buy you some jail time.
Anything outside your home isn't self defense, and a call to 911 would serve you better.
 
#158
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeathisCertain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it were a property issue outside of the house, I'd probably want a ranged weapon. </div></div>

Entertaining thoughts like this will buy you some jail time.
Anything outside your home isn't self defense, and a call to 911 would serve you better. </div></div>

Depends on the state. If you go out looking for a fight, you're absolutely right. However, I have a hard time with blanketed statements. There are situations that could call for shooting at a longer range, though few and far between.

Scenario:

You're out walking on your farm. Some yahoo begins blasting at you with a "deer rifle" from 300 yards away. The person is a threat to you, you're in fear of your life, and they are using force. You have nowhere to go. Many states you can defend yourself.

I can imagine there are lots of scenarios in border states with drug cartel problems.
 
#159
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

1911 all the way.. long guns are to damn big for home defense.. and I have used one of those shotguns attached to an AR.. "masterkey" and to hell with those things... its ungodly heavy and immobile..
 
#160
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

+1 for the shotgun. Just check out Blanchard, OK where 18 year old Sarah McKinley took care of home protection with her shotgun. I love this sentence, "McKinley says she moved her couch in front of the door, grabbed her son and her shotgun, called 911 and went in a back room.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2827682/posts

When the police are not fast enough grab the shotgun.
 
#161
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">okuie, graham

Thankfully the UK is still a comparatively peaceful place. Random acts of extreme violence or armed home intrusion are still fairly rare.

But there is significant knife and firearms crime amongst certain age groups and ethnic groupings. We are seeing an increase in gang culture as well as violent crime related to incomers from different cultures. So the situation does seem to be changing steadily.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"Proporsionate/reasonable force" has always been an interesting concept to me. Exactly how do you determine what that is in the heat of the moment when light is low (at best) and you have just been awakened?
okie </div></div>

I agree that this is a key question....hence the example of the two guys in the UK.

Another case recently was brought against a home owner who disarmed an intruder armed with a kitchen knife and then killed the guy with his own knife during the ensuing struggle.

I believe the homeowner was charged with manslaughter (accidental homicide I guess you'd call it?)....

There is strong opinion in the UK that the law here needs to change as it seems to favour the intruder.

As a home owner confronting an "uninvited guest", not only do you have only moments to evaluate the situation and act, but you have to consider the possibility that the law will come down hard on you.

That is potentially a critical hindrance/deterent/psychological disadvantage to the homeowner.

Add to that (a) the stupidity of the intruder having the rightto sue the homeowner for compensation for any injuries sustained during their illegal enterprise and (b) increasingly long LE response times - often into hours, not minutes - suffered in most areas of the UK (rural or urban) and the idea of "reasonable force" becomes a minefield that will be pretty much determined by how good your lawyer is! </div></div>

Barsaboy, now see, that is just the kind of mindset I can not even begin to comprehend. A man bursts into your home, armed with a knife, you kill him ( and with a knife no doubt, with me it would have been 1911 or AR) and are charged with manslaughter? Are you F'n kiddin me? Any judicial system that would do that is just plain wrong IMO, and I know there are places in the US that this could happen, it sickens me. The home owner in this situation is a hero to me. He protected the innocent from someone who preys on them. What more could the bad guy have possibly done to prove he was there threatening someone's life? I'll just stay right here in rural OK, where I can at least try and protect me and mine fron loosing our lives and not be put in prison for doing so. Good luck to ya bother.

okie
 
#162
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

Well a tricked up AR will make you look bad apparently. I would also feel this way. Now a tricked up 12ga. done same as the AR is also stupid. If you want to use a shotty, learn to shoot it. I can take the head off of mr mallard at 20 ft with duck loads, why not intruders? Barrel length... Darn it.

I keep a glock 29 10mm by the bed and really worry about penetration. But I know where my neighbors bedroom is so that is an off limits fire lane.

And now I see that my bottle is almost empty:) No more internet for me!

bentpipe
 
#163
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

Ive always hated the "not able to defend yourself, unless you meet certain requirements" mentality. I personnaly dont care what state, country, or planet your on, if someone at any time breaks into my property, or vehicle, or anything that is mine of signicant value, I will act, specially if its my home. I dont care what the law says, when my life or the life of my family could possibly be involved, the law aint worth a s*it. Also, agian, if it comes to the life of me or mine, I could careless about damaging my house, thats fixable, got insureance for that, a life aint fixable.
 
#164
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...that is just the kind of mindset I can not even begin to comprehend. A man bursts into your home, armed with a knife, you kill him.... and are charged with manslaughter? Are you F'n kiddin me? Any judicial system that would do that is just plain wrong IMO, </div></div>

okie - you'll get no disagreement from me on that statement
 
#165
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

I think there is a lot of factors that need to be weighed out on this.

A shotgun has the dispersion to initiate complete incapacitation with a mid-chest (high torso) shot. in CQB this dispersion wont be much at ranges under 20' but several penetration wounds to a lung or both lungs is enough to kill. onces tension pneumo-thorax sets in (collapsed lung and air surrounding the lung) unless he has immediate medical attention - he's screwed. i dont need to explain a penetration shot to the heart, throat, or face. With a Red Dot sight or an EOTech, a shotgun would easily become a great home def and reflexive CQB weapon. AR's would work well to, enhanced ability to add on modular rails for lights (even though most break ins are during the day), increased capacity for a magazine, and ability to reload faster (should you need it). One problem i would see, is firing 5.56mm and higher is loud as hell indoors. Been there, done that, lost hearing. Its worthy to note if you have children in the house. For home protection, in my opinion, less shots required > more and repeated loss of hearing and possible thru-and-thru into furniture/walls.
 
#166
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

Welcome to the world of the Liberal.

Happened in the UK
Happened here in Oz.

You guys bitch about not being allowed SBR's, Suppressors, or having to obtain a licence for the CCW.

We're not even allowed to have them outside of the safe in our house, and even if we did have all the legal and moral recourse in the world to defend ourselves against an attacker in our home, we'd still be taken to court and be expected to defend ourselves as if we were guilty until proven innocent.

You thought California was an oppresive left-wing state. Come to Victoria.
 
#167
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bellycrawl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shotgun is hard to beat followed by a handgun. I would even question standard capacity arguments some have presented when an AR is compared to a shotgun (unless they are packing a beta drum). I include shell capacity...so 9 pellet 00 buck x 8 shells in the gun = 72 round of around .32 caliber moving at 1300 - 1450 fps. Not bad for someone sleepy and alarmed in the middle of the night. </div></div>

...except that those 9 pellets are all being launched in the same direction at the same time, which means that if one misses, all of them are likely going to be misses. People hold to the belief that a shotgun magically multiplies their number of rounds, when in practical terms choosing a scattergun over a carbine drops the effective number of shots available by at least 60-70% (30 rifle rounds versus 5-9 shotgun rounds). If your front bead or front sight with either system is on the target's center mass when you break the trigger, you're probably going to score a disabling hit, regardless of how many theoretical projectiles hit the target. If the front sight isn't on when you fired, then you've just wasted about 10-20% of your available firepower if you have a shotgun...or 3% of your firepower if you have a rifle (reloads notwithstanding). Only hits count.</div></div>

I completely agree with this, thats a very good point that almost everyone misinterprets. ONLY HITS COUNT. capacity is a big deal when it comes to sending a volley of lead at a cost of 10-20% of the ammo in the tube or 3% of your magazine. However, we do have to give the Marine credit. He was trained in weapons, guarantee it. I know he knows the importance of accuracy and first round hit. If this was some 19y/o kid whose dad just baught him a house, and the kid wants to defend it... maybe he has no clue as to what he's getting into. Still, all around a great subject though for others to gain and benefit from
 
#168
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remoah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the world of the Liberal.

Happened in the UK
Happened here in Oz.

You guys bitch about not being allowed SBR's, Suppressors, or having to obtain a licence for the CCW.

We're not even allowed to have them outside of the safe in our house, and even if we did have all the legal and moral recourse in the world to defend ourselves against an attacker in our home, we'd still be taken to court and be expected to defend ourselves as if we were guilty until proven innocent.

You thought California was an oppresive left-wing state. Come to Victoria.</div></div>

That sucks. Too bad most people will not keep calling and harassing their rep to get laws changed. Then the media they are not even sane any more.
 
#169
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

I keep both and ideally the selection would depend on the threat(s). A pistol and light are always going to come first. Fight your way to your long guns, they say. If it's really that long of an engagement INSIDE my house, then shit I will bring both, my armor, and a big ass dog! Remember most gun fights are over in a few seconds, not the 8 minute shootout climax of your favorite hollywood film.

That being said,
1) 870 Vang Comp w/surefire forend, and BOTH Federal LE132 00 and slugs ON the gun. Need something else, select it in. Birdshot? If you want, but only if you can manage its limitations with other shells on the gun. I'd rather do it right the first time.
2) AR15 with 55gr hollow points. Won't exit a body with any house exiting energy, if at all. If you plan to miss, train more. Same goes for the shotgun.

Also think about what will penetrate armor, what won't, and what the gang members might be wearing in your neighborhood. Can you make that head shot, or is that 223 a better choice?

Lastly, don't forget about illumination!
 
#171
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cwillits505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1911 all the way.. long guns are to damn big for home defense.. and I have used one of those shotguns attached to an AR.. "masterkey" and to hell with those things... its ungodly heavy and immobile.. </div></div>

This is the smartest thing said so far. I find this thread quite laughable. There are endless scenarios that can happen when dealing with a home invasion. Even the best laid plan goes to shit once bullets start to fly.

Out of all of you bad ass tacticool operators and even Legitimate instructors and LE Officers. How many of you have had an actual home invasion? I have had it happen <span style="text-decoration: underline">TWICE</span>. Neither of the incidents were the same.

The first time was when I was 16 and the intruder ran when he heard my voice. All i said was "Hello?" when I heard footsteps coming up the stairs. Long story short I ended up with the intruder held at gun point with a rifle in my back yard until the police arrived. Turns out he was a 14 year old black kid. (starting young) haha!

The seconed time I was working night shift so I was sleeping during the day. I woke to a presence standing next to my bed. It was none of my family it was my psycho ex-girlfriend. She crawled under the garage door that we left cracked to let the cat in and out. ( we don't do that anymore)

So in either situation a long gun is less than ideal. Your best bet would be a hand gun that you are comfortable with in a practical caliber. Its alot harder for some one to take a hand gun from you than it is a long gun. especial when coming around any kind of corner and not knowing whats around it. you don't know how close someone can get to you or your family during a home invasion. A hand gun you can keep close to your body and fire even with an attacker inside your personal space. good luck trying to do that with a long gun. Also even if he does take your hand gun a knife or a small back up gun like a kel tec 380 or something similar is your best bet. That is if you have time to grab the BUG or knife after you have your primary. when shit happens it happens fast.
 
#172
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

Sooo, you protect yourself from an ex and a 14 yr old kid that does nothing but run from you and you're the self defence weaponry expert? If this is a laughable thread, you should fit right in.

okie
 
#173
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

That is a great story, not great that it happend but great how she was able to deal with it. Pro gun story in the LA Times even!
 
#175
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sooo, you protect yourself from an ex and a 14 yr old kid that does nothing but run from you and you're the self defence weaponry expert? If this is a laughable thread, you should fit right in.

okie </div></div>

laugh.gif


These examples of children, who don't know you're home, and psycho ex-girlfriends - neither of whom seemed to be trying to do physical harm - probably don't count as "actual home invasions", for the purposes of this discussion. If those are home invasions, then I've had lots of home invasions (but I would never try to claim that they were "actual home invasions", or a life and death situation, for the purposes of this discussion).
 
#176
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Solid_Squirrel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sooo, you protect yourself from an ex and a 14 yr old kid that does nothing but run from you and you're the self defence weaponry expert? If this is a laughable thread, you should fit right in.

okie </div></div>

laugh.gif


These examples of children, who don't know you're home, and psycho ex-girlfriends - neither of whom seemed to be trying to do physical harm - probably don't count as "actual home invasions", for the purposes of this discussion. If those are home invasions, then I've had lots of home invasions (but I would never try to claim that they were "actual home invasions", or a life and death situation, for the purposes of this discussion). </div></div>

Home invasion: an unauthorized and forceful entry into a dwelling. Just because something did not end in bloodshed doesn't mean it's not a home invasion. People that are not welcome in your home should not be in your home period. What I was trying to get at was that even with a well laid plan and all the preparation you can think of. It will happen in the way you least expect it. SO until it happens to you. You will not know how you are going to react when and if it happens.
 
#177
Re: AR vs Shottie for Home Defense

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many of you have had an actual home invasion?</div></div>

Not yet thank God, but there was one at 5am yesterday morning literally one block from here. That's a little too close. (The real question is, how many clicks up is that driveway, but they're already long gone
wink.gif
)

Two dark skinned males entered, tied up one victim, assaulted the other, and ransacked the place. No further injuries. People in this town: Lock your doors dammit!
 
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