Rifle Scopes AR10 Optics Magnification Range

[Srikaleak]

Hey all,

I've done some research on a variety of high-end optics but I'd just like to start a poll on what you think is the best magnification range for an all purpose AR10 rifle. I need to know what a good compromise / balance is between the following factors:

1. Magnification Range
2. Weight of Optic
3. Length of Optic

Price is NOT a factor here. As I said this is for a all purpose rifle. I am expecting the optic to stand up to competition use, general marksmanship, training courses, and hunting expeditions. I have a JP LRP07 on order with 22" 6.5CM barrel. I've kind of gone all in on this platform and this will be my one and only rifle (until I feel the need to get a 338LM bolt action).

Please post either what optic you are using or what optic you'd think would best suit this application as well as answer the poll. I hope this will be a good reference for all.

 

[flyer]

An AR10 is not a good all purpose rifle.

It lends itself well to certain specialization but when you try to make it do everything you're going to have to sacrifice a lot of it's strengths.

 

[Wyzrd]

For an all purpose AR10, and if $ was no concern, id go with a S&B 5-20 US in a cantilevered Sphur mount, and have an Aimpoint Micro T2 on a 45 degree/offset mount for the close in shots....

 

[Srikaleak]

An AR10 is not a good all purpose rifle.

It lends itself well to certain specialization but when you try to make it do everything you're going to have to sacrifice a lot of it's strengths.

Could you expand on why you say an AR10 wouldn't make a great all purpose rifle? The only factor I believe I would need to compromise on is weight. The rifle is going to be a pig which would make taking it on hunting trips a little more difficult. It should be effective given good maintainence in all aspects.

 

[Srikaleak]

For an all purpose AR10, and if $ was no concern, id go with a S&B 5-20 US in a cantilevered Sphur mount, and have an Aimpoint Micro T2 on a 45 degree/offset mount for the close in shots....

Would you prefer off set red dots to offset iron sights? I was contemplating mounting a trijicon rmr on one of their spuhr mounting setups. But something about iron sights appeals to me.

 

[Wyzrd]

Would you prefer off set red dots to offset iron sights? I was contemplating mounting a trijicon rmr on one of their spuhr mounting setups. But something about iron sights appeals to me.

Hell, you could always run BUIS too. I’ve never been much of an iron sight shooter, so that’s why I’d go with a red dot instead.

 

[Howland]

I put a 6-24 on mine and optimistically put a 20 MOA mount below it. I never saw the 1-2 MOA wobble of my heartbeat with a 3-9. Not only must I work on my form, I also have to control the timing of the trigger breaking.

 

[flyer]

Could you expand on why you say an AR10 wouldn't make a great all purpose rifle? The only factor I believe I would need to compromise on is weight. The rifle is going to be a pig which would make taking it on hunting trips a little more difficult. It should be effective given good maintainence in all aspects.

Weight and length. If you try to make an AR10 that's good for clearing rooms, you shorten the barrel to the point that it becomes handy, then you've lost most of the ballistics that you chose an AR10 for and it will still be heavy compared to a similar purpose AR15.

If you go for long range accuracy, you can do very well at the expense of being bulky and heavy. It doesn't really shine too bright anywhere else.

 

[flyer]

Don't get me wrong, I like them, I have two LR308 type rifles.

My evolution went from FALs to AR15s to AR10s to bolt action, increasing accuracy potential at every step. ARs are fantastic when you specialize or pick 2-3 complementary roles.

 

[Srikaleak]

Weight and length. If you try to make an AR10 that's good for clearing rooms, you shorten the barrel to the point that it becomes handy, then you've lost most of the ballistics that you chose an AR10 for and it will still be heavy compared to a similar purpose AR15.

If you go for long range accuracy, you can do very well at the expense of being bulky and heavy. It doesn't really shine too bright anywhere else.

Yea, I guess my main focus has been outdoor, wide open spaces. I didn't even consider urban environments. Thanks for the food for thought. I will have to take the urban environment into consideration.

 

[AMGtuned]

For an all purpose AR10, and if $ was no concern, id go with a S&B 5-20 US in a cantilevered Sphur mount, and have an Aimpoint Micro T2 on a 45 degree/offset mount for the close in shots....

Can I get an Amen. That would be some hot sauce right there!

 

[ra2bach]

I see AR10 more for barrier penetration than long distance over the AR15 but it should be good out to 800yds. a good 2-10 or 3-15 for target ID...

 

[RobertTheTexan]

I agree with the end all/be all/GP type of AR. I tried that on my first AR, and 14 AR's later..... My point is that AR's, at least in this old veterans mind are very purpose driven, and "GP", aka general purpose, is not a purpose. I've had two AR-10's. The first was an 18" Aero build I did easily shot .41 @ 100, it was built as a precision AR and it did that job well. I had a Burris XTR II 5-25x50 and that was just too much magnification. I never used 25x. I dropped down to a 2.5x10, but that wasn't enough, 3-15x or 4-20x is a sweet spot in my opine. My 2nd 308 has a 16" barrle (LMT MWS) and I have another Burris XTR II but in 1-8x. Perfect scope for that application. I'd say anything over 20x is just going to be too eye-tiring. So I think your x-20x is a good call. Especially since you are running a 22" 6.5 CM barrel. You can say it's GP, but that rig has precision written all over it. IMO.

 

[RobertTheTexan]

Weight and length. If you try to make an AR10 that's good for clearing rooms, you shorten the barrel to the point that it becomes handy, then you've lost most of the ballistics that you chose an AR10 for and it will still be heavy compared to a similar purpose AR15.

If you go for long range accuracy, you can do very well at the expense of being bulky and heavy. It doesn't really shine too bright anywhere else.

Agreed you'll hardly get to AR-15 weight, but my first 308 build was a pretty manageable rifle. I built it as a precision rifle, so I wasn't trying to clear rooms, I was shooting from barricade positions, fixed positions. However once I did some rail and stock tweaking, I had a pretty maneuverable 308 that was still consistently sub moa with good factory match ammo. Later I picked up an LMT MWS 308 upper, that was a 20" cut down to 16". My plan was to use this as a battle rifle. A rifle that fulfilled the same role as a Recce in 5.56 did, but with heavier hitting 308. A rifle I could use in CQ and also stretch out. It was pretty good in that role, until I screwed my can on it. It went from manageable to way the $#)% front end heavy to the point of running CQ drills were just really difficult after a few drills, and that wasn't even in the Texas heat. I probably would have died. I'm still going to keep it, but looking at a micro 30 can that's a lot lighter than my current AAC can. The 18" precision gun was about 2 lbs lighter than the LMT. I like my quad rails, but I was cursing that 4 miles of quad rail on that MWS upper for sure.

 

[stwcattle]

Congratulations on your JP purchase. There is no finer AR built by anyone than a JP in my opinion.

Two things a LPR-07 is not is a house clearing or a back pack/expedition hunting rifle. The rifle is heavy!

The LPR-07 strengths are accuracy and long range capability. The rifle will serve you will at range, training courses, is match capable and if want to do some hunting, your will be fine if you are a blind hunter or walking short distances.

As far as a optic choice, I have a S&B 5-25x56 and Spuhr mount on my LPR 07 in 6 creed just because I didnt have the optic on another rifle. It is a heavy option but it is a top tier scope and like mentioned, the rifle is already a "pig". I like the idea above for a S&B in 5-20. Other options are a NF 4-16x42 ATACRF1 Mil C. For something cheaper, the new Leupold 3-18x44 is getting good reviews. My first choices would be to stay with something from NF or S&B. And by the way, forget the red dot.

I would also suggest looking up Lowlights JP LPR-07 review for ammunition choices. I''m not sure what is working in the JP 6.5 creedmoors. And keep that chamber clean.

As far as training, I think JP and TBAC partner on a long range gas gun course in Logan NM at John Pauls Blue Steel Ranch. I took a bolt gun course there and I highly recommend the course. It is a really nice place to shoot and Bryan the instructor is a very good guy. You will learn a lot from him.

In closing pick out a top tier scope that suits the distance you will be shooting. I would not get caught up in the weight of the optic. The rifle is heavy. Buy some dumb bells to improve strength before sacrificing optic quality. Lastly buy good ammunition and enjoy the rifle.

 

[mjeter]

I put a Nightforce SHV F1 and for me that was about right for my AR 10. It is used mainly as a hog hunting gun.

 

[Glassaholic]

For an all purpose AR10, and if $ was no concern, id go with a S&B 5-20 US in a cantilevered Sphur mount, and have an Aimpoint Micro T2 on a 45 degree/offset mount for the close in shots....

This was one of my favorite setups with my large frame AR - S&B 5-20 US with ERA-TAC mount (non-cantilevered as the large frame upper has enough room) with offset Doctor Optic red dot... loved that setup.

 

[koshkin]

I am not an AR-10 fan. I built one for myself in an attempt to make a general purpose rifle and basically decided that for my purposes a small frame AR chambered for 6.5 Grendel is a better fit, especially if add potential self-defense use to the mix.

That having been said, the argument which optics works best is roughly the same. For general purpose use, I like 3-15x and similar scopes. For self-defense use, add a red dot at 45 degrees.

I explore the whole "if I could have only one" topic a couple of times a year. This from December 2017:

http://opticsthoughts.com/?p=1966
http://opticsthoughts.com/?p=1970

I will probably do a mid-year update soon since my bolt action preferences have shifted.

ILya

 

[CSTactical]

What's your price range out of curiosity? And do you have a reticle preference?

 

[hk dave]

For all around I’d go with the 3-20 and a red dot attached somehow.

 

[smarcus]

My 16 inch SR25 ECC has a TA11 Acog on it. I love it's weight and functionality but it is not a precision optic. If I were to change it I would look at an NF NX8 or a Mark 5 3-18 with offset RMR. Almost all my shooting is under 500 yards so the ACOG works fine for me. (Although I think about the other options all the time, just cuz.) And I usually run a Silencerco Omega.

 

[wigwamitus]

1. Magnification Range
2. Weight of Optic
3. Length of Optic

I have L&S 3-18x t3, length: 11.9 inches, weight 23.6 oz
When I got it, it was the shortest, lightest in class. And I want 3x on the low end of power for hunting and something around 15+ for shooting out to 1000yds.

==
I also use xtr 3-15x scr-mil

==

As to whether 7.62 stoner is useful or not ... I've gone full circle. I started with a Sig 7.62(16) ... but sold it after 2 years ... but the primary reason I sold it had nothing to do with how it shot ... it was totally about the Sig business model. They refused to sell parts, some of which might have be proprietary for the gun. My business model is to fix my guns when they break. Their business model was for me to send to them and wait a couple of months. With my business model I can get guns up and running in hours, not months. So our business models did not fit together. And, in general that is true for many of the 7.62 stoners, the exception being the DPMS gen-1s.

So For past 2.5 years I've switched to 6.5G(18) in this space and I love the way it shoots also ... and external ballistically it matches up pretty well with the 7.62(16). BUT, the trade off with 6.5G is the breadth and depth of the loaded ammo supply. So, I've recently decided to go back to 7.62 ... probably 18 inch proof barrel ... probably DPMS gen1 lower.

Another plus of 7.62 over 6.5G is terminal ballistics energy. With 36% to 42% more bullet weight, there is an advantage .... that translates to either more weight and/or more recoil ... but life is full of trade-offs.

==
Back to the 3x on the low end ... I spend a lot of "hunting" time with the rifle/scope on a tripod doing 360s on 3x ... and that gives good scanning capability and shooting out to 200yds against most critters does not require cranking up, though I will crank up to about 6x for a shot if I have time. I shoot mostly at night, so using clipons in front of the scope.

 

[schlaiek]

I have a gen2 Sig Tango6 3-18 on my 16" AR10 and a Leupold MK5 3.6-18 will go on my 18" AR15. I think this is a perfect mag range for an gas gun that's built with accuracy in mind.

 

[Srikaleak]

What's your price range out of curiosity? And do you have a reticle preference?

My price range is ~ $4k for scope, mount, and tenebraex covers+sunshade. Anything left over could go towards a red dot with offset mount but taking what people have said and voted for, sticking with just a mid-range high quality optic seems to be the way to go.

@stwcattle As far as hunting I'm not going to have a choice. This will be my one and only rifle and I really want to get into the hunting sport. I'm fairly young, sturdy, and stubborn so I'll deal with the weight.

 

[mudpig]

I have a 4-16 on my AR10. Works great throughout the usable range of the 308Win.

 

[Glassaholic]

My price range is ~ $4k for scope, mount, and tenebraex covers+sunshade. Anything left over could go towards a red dot with offset mount but taking what people have said and voted for, sticking with just a mid-range high quality optic seems to be the way to go.

@stwcattle As far as hunting I'm not going to have a choice. This will be my one and only rifle and I really want to get into the hunting sport. I'm fairly young, sturdy, and stubborn so I'll deal with the weight.

Given this info I’d highly recommend the Ultra Short scopes. The pinnacle being the S&B ultra short 3-20x50 and the new Kahles 3.5-18x50. If you can possibly wait the ZCO ZC420 may prove to take the crown but we’re probably at least two months from seeing those. Reticle choice I’d say the Kahles and the ZCO have the better options, but Schmidt is no slouch. I’d say pick the scope out of those that has the reticle you feel will be the most useful for what you want to do. The Schmidt may be close to blowing your budget once you get everything but I’ve seen some deals on the 3-20 US for close to $3200 new.

Also, call or email the Hide dealers and tell them everything you want and see what kind of package deals they can make for you, tell them you’re a Hide member and they’ll take care of you.

 

[gingerking5566]

For the smallest groups possible, you may want a 20x scope. There are disadvantages to a high power scope though. One being that you really start needing high quality glass, as imperfections are more noticeable in high magnification. Meaning higher cost.


If you want to shoot at man sized sillouete targets then it's less of a concern for small as possible group size. A simple 10x would do fine.


Variable magnification would be little use to you either way. A fixed power has the benefit of costing less for similar quality.


I say the SWFA SS scopes would work well. They are tough, good glass and not expensive. They are on sale for $250 right now, and people claim the glass is as good as some other scopes costing 3-4x more. The special price includes rings as well, but I suggest a cantilever mount, and SWFA has theirs on sale for $30. I picked up this combo and so far I like it.

Fixed power, a little on the heavy side, but a good scope. They sell a 6x, a 10x, 12x, and I think a 16x too, not 100% on the last one.

Mil reticle and options for MOA or Mil turret adjustment. They have a side focus version as well, but it costs more.

 

[CSTactical]

My price range is ~ $4k for scope, mount, and tenebraex covers+sunshade. Anything left over could go towards a red dot with offset mount but taking what people have said and voted for, sticking with just a mid-range high quality optic seems to be the way to go.

@stwcattle As far as hunting I'm not going to have a choice. This will be my one and only rifle and I really want to get into the hunting sport. I'm fairly young, sturdy, and stubborn so I'll deal with the weight.

Bill sums it up well below:

Given this info I’d highly recommend the Ultra Short scopes. The pinnacle being the S&B ultra short 3-20x50 and the new Kahles 3.5-18x50. If you can possibly wait the ZCO ZC420 may prove to take the crown but we’re probably at least two months from seeing those. Reticle choice I’d say the Kahles and the ZCO have the better options, but Schmidt is no slouch. I’d say pick the scope out of those that has the reticle you feel will be the most useful for what you want to do. The Schmidt may be close to blowing your budget once you get everything but I’ve seen some deals on the 3-20 US for close to $3200 new.

Also, call or email the Hide dealers and tell them everything you want and see what kind of package deals they can make for you, tell them you’re a Hide member and they’ll take care of you.

If it were my money for a mid range scope, I'd take a Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 with a SKMR3 reticle which is a fantastic scope scope overall that has a great reticle, fantastic glass and is compact. Mike has been testing this scope for a few weeks and is very impressed with it.

 

[Srikaleak]

@CSTactical I handled the k318i at the NRA show and it was sweet. I think I'm going to hold out until the ZCO 420 is released and then decide between those two.

 

[Srikaleak]

Lot of good information folks. I appreciate the guidance.

 

[RobertTheTexan]

Bill sums it up well below:



If it were my money for a mid range scope, I'd take a Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 with a SKMR3 reticle which is a fantastic scope scope overall that has a great reticle, fantastic glass and is compact. Mike has been testing this scope for a few weeks and is very impressed with it.

That scope mount...is so fine I want to call it Delilah. I don't believe I've seen that before. Who makes that? I've got a buddy who usually keeps about 10k worth of scopes on hand. Not quantity, quality. I think that's in four scopes. He's run the Theta, Minox, S&B, USO, and recently picked up a March. By far his favorite is that Kahles you have right there.

 

[Srikaleak]

There is a lot of praise going on for the Kahles 318i. It's getting really hard to wait for the ZCO420, especially when my new rifle is sitting in the safe. The timeline for ZCO is Sept 2018 so it's gonna be a while. I guess I'll just save my money until then, maybe I'll be able to buy both ?

 

[Glassaholic]

That scope mount...is so fine I want to call it Delilah. I don't believe I've seen that before. Who makes that?

If you're talking about the mount on Mike's Kahles in the picture I believe that is a GDI PROM mount - https://www.cstactical.com/global-defense-initiatives.aspx

 

[hypno02]

I like 3-15 or 3-18 for a GP AR10. I currently run a NXSF1 on my 16" LMT but If I were buying new it'd be tough to beat a leupold mk5 for the price.

 

[N-C]

NEMO AR10 308 / “” Leupold VX6 2-12x44mm scope “” ( mid-range 100-400 under 600 yards ) Federal Fusion .308 Winchester Ammunition JSP 165 Grains

NEMO same as up / “” Leupold VX6 3-18x44mm “” ( mid-long-range under 700 yards ) Hornady Superformance .308 Win Ammunition 165 Grain InterBond Polymer Tip BT 2840fps

2 AR10 set up for different shooting range and ammo

 

[N-C]

I do like this scope but $$$$

Schmidt & Bender Ultra Short 3-20×50 PM II

 

[CSTactical]

That scope mount...is so fine I want to call it Delilah. I don't believe I've seen that before. Who makes that? I've got a buddy who usually keeps about 10k worth of scopes on hand. Not quantity, quality. I think that's in four scopes. He's run the Theta, Minox, S&B, USO, and recently picked up a March. By far his favorite is that Kahles you have right there.

The Kahles K318i is one of our favorite scopes in its class overall and the mount is from GDI Global Defense Initiatives, solid mounts with an excellent return to zero. Let us know if we can assist you with the mount and/or the Kahles, we'll be happy to assist.

 

[CSTactical]

There is a lot of praise going on for the Kahles 318i. It's getting really hard to wait for the ZCO420, especially when my new rifle is sitting in the safe. The timeline for ZCO is Sept 2018 so it's gonna be a while. I guess I'll just save my money until then, maybe I'll be able to buy both ?

We have some more K318i SKMR3's in stock to keep that poor rifle from being lonely...

 

[lawofsavage]

I’m definitely on a lot more of a budget than some of you guys but lately I’ve been wanting to get and thinking one of the DPMS G2 compact hunters at 6.9 pounds with a leupold vx-5 3-15 at 19 ounces plus a red dot would make an awesome all around setupafter adding a sling and light.