OK I finally received my suppressor from jail and went out to enjoy it. Well the rifle ran fine after I changed the buffer spring but after another 60 rounds it is carboned up bad. So i spent about 30 min cleaning, my question is do i lube the hell out of it so this does not happen as bad or do I need to run it dry? thanks STan
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Suppressors AR10s and suppressors
- Thread starter Ruslow
- Start date
Welcome to the world of suppressed ar's using a direct gas system.... Dirty is just the nature of the beast.
You can mitigate this to some extent with a heavy buffer and an adjustable gas block but really just keep adding lube as needed. The wetter the better! I run a JP 6.5 Creed with a SiCo Omega and yes the suppressed setup gets dirtier than an identical gun with a comp. Both still runs just fine.
Just dump more lube in and it will keep running.
I know guys who run several thousand rounds suppressed without cleaning. Just keep it wet and don’t worry.
I know guys who run several thousand rounds suppressed without cleaning. Just keep it wet and don’t worry.
i use a good combo of lube and no cleaning. i just go until i need to wipe it down or something. i do use an adjustable gas block and my AR10 is a 16"
If you are lucky enough to have a gas gun that runs well dry, I run the ones that will do that, dry.
Run all suppressed AR's/M16's wet and then clean once they no longer function or you need for a hunt/event. The M16 I pig hunt with has a piston upper to help, but it still gets very dirty. The wetter they are the easier they are to wipe out in the field and keep on shooting. The drier they are the more caked on the carbon gets and longer it takes to clean.
Typically shoot about 5-7000 rounds of 556 annually thru about 10 AR's / M16 at our place and been doing it for years.
My two cents
Typically shoot about 5-7000 rounds of 556 annually thru about 10 AR's / M16 at our place and been doing it for years.
My two cents
An adjustable gas block will help immensely (I would skip the heavy buffer, don't need both). Beyond that, yes, I agree with the folks above. It's a filthy business.
-Stooxie
-Stooxie
Lube it up well. Try to use ammo with a cleaner burning powder if possible (some are DEFINITELY worse than others). Get a PRI gasbuster charging handle. Won't keep the gas out of the action but it will help keep it out of your face. A JP Ent. FMOS carrier will also go a long way towards reliability whether it's a small or large frame. They're slick enough they can be used dry and dirty though they work even better lubed. They just wipe clean. Their bolts are worth it too.
There's some alteration you can do that's supposed to vent the gas out of the action but I forget who does it and I can't tell you if it works or not.
I have an SR25 and the KAC suppressor and it gets dirty too. Not as bad as the 5.56 AR's though, they get NASTY!
A captured piston in the upper with the gas pushing that into the carrier would be ideal but I'm not sure who if anyone makes something like that.
There's some alteration you can do that's supposed to vent the gas out of the action but I forget who does it and I can't tell you if it works or not.
I have an SR25 and the KAC suppressor and it gets dirty too. Not as bad as the 5.56 AR's though, they get NASTY!
A captured piston in the upper with the gas pushing that into the carrier would be ideal but I'm not sure who if anyone makes something like that.
I use an SLR gas block. I don't use a wet lube to much spray. Try the extreme weapons grease from slip 2000.
Agree with above. 2 of my builds have SLR blocks and I swear by them.
Also buy the little jar of Slip 2000 grease and buy a cheap plastic syringe from amazon. You can spoon grease into the syringe easily then use that to apply it perfectly where you want.
All pistol slides get that grease as well as AR bolts on the wear surfaces. Very happy with its ability to last and not gum up in the winter.
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Glad I came upon this thread...just got my Sandman S today. I'll have to give the Slip 2000 a try.
Tell us more about your Suppressor and rifle .... I have been running cans for about 14 years... and pretty much every gun that will see heavy suppressor use has an adjustable gas block from the factory and a gas buster charging handle.. Some can do produce less blow back than others as well..
<--SR25 + SF can
I use a dry BCG with pretty good layer of grease on all contact points of the boltbody, cam pin to the carrier, contact points of the BCG to the receiver + a thin layer on the charging handle.
YMMV
I use a dry BCG with pretty good layer of grease on all contact points of the boltbody, cam pin to the carrier, contact points of the BCG to the receiver + a thin layer on the charging handle.
YMMV
The OBR bolt is the easiest to clean bolt I have... I just put a "normal" amount of lube on it and call it good.. with the chrome finish on that bolt the gunk just wipes away..
Did you say you had to change out buffer springs to get it to run? I had a surefire 762ss on mine till I switched to the LaRue can... and had no issues.. in .308
Did you say you had to change out buffer springs to get it to run? I had a surefire 762ss on mine till I switched to the LaRue can... and had no issues.. in .308
About 25 years ago I asked the head guy for Match and NSW small arms at Crane what the best lube was for my match AR. They were just starting to fiddle with NM ARs but had a few years' experience with the folks at Dam Neck making suppressed SR25s (pre-MK11) work reliably. Between Crane and the frogs, they came up with a concoction that I have been using since:
- 1 part LPS light weapon oil
- 1 part aviation hydraulic fluid (I use Aeroshell 41)
- 2 parts synthetic 2-stroke motorcycle oil (I use Bel Ray MC-1)
The LPS is a good, light general oil. The hydraulic fluid is a good lube under pressure and the 2-stroke oil is made to work in a high-carbon environment.
Funny thing ... Geissele's Go Juice works (and looks) very similar.
Nowadays, I have used my Ops Inc 3rd Model on my AR10(308) and Gap10(260) with great success. Last year I built a Maten in 6.5cm and got a 308 upper to go with it. I have a TBAC Ultra 7 awaiting the ATF for them.
- 1 part LPS light weapon oil
- 1 part aviation hydraulic fluid (I use Aeroshell 41)
- 2 parts synthetic 2-stroke motorcycle oil (I use Bel Ray MC-1)
The LPS is a good, light general oil. The hydraulic fluid is a good lube under pressure and the 2-stroke oil is made to work in a high-carbon environment.
Funny thing ... Geissele's Go Juice works (and looks) very similar.
Nowadays, I have used my Ops Inc 3rd Model on my AR10(308) and Gap10(260) with great success. Last year I built a Maten in 6.5cm and got a 308 upper to go with it. I have a TBAC Ultra 7 awaiting the ATF for them.
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hum ... what ammo have you been using ?
I did not have a hiccup out on mime... but all it has been fed is FGMM maybe the suppressor has more back pressure
Anyway I just use whatever gun oil is handy (CLP or Slip2000)
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You will find that different ammunition will run clean/dirty in your gun. I have found that Fiocci runs very clean in my piston LWRCs. Both run best dry - when lubed up they spit oil and carbon making a real mess of it. The 8.5" pdw is the toughest to run clean as the gas block is not adjustable.
Like so many have mentioned: I keep it super wet, and shoot it often. I run suppressed 99% of the time now. From my KAC 14.5” to my SR-25. I run my SF SOCOM7.62RC2 on everything.
As you get more and more time behind suppressors, you’ll know which gun needs what. They’ll let you know.
Most folks new to suppressors (myself included) aren’t ready for how dirty they are. I was surprised. The SF is not a high back pressure can, but even the ammonia in my mag gets dirty. I don’t care though, the juice is definitely worth the squeeze.
As you get more and more time behind suppressors, you’ll know which gun needs what. They’ll let you know.
Most folks new to suppressors (myself included) aren’t ready for how dirty they are. I was surprised. The SF is not a high back pressure can, but even the ammonia in my mag gets dirty. I don’t care though, the juice is definitely worth the squeeze.
Do I need to add adjustable gas block on my new Knights SR 25 ERC or should I run a H3 buffer? I have the knights suppresser.
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I run mine wet. Really wet. Just wipe things off and all is well.
Even piston guns are dirty suppressed.
Even piston guns are dirty suppressed.
RRA X-1 LAR-8, which has an 18" barrel, i put an SLR Sentry 8 adjustable gas block on it. (PITA had to mill inside of hand guard). It runs most ammo welll on 5 clicks out from closed, of the total 15 clicks. It only seemed to run cheap XM80 w/o the adjustable gas block, but Hornady and FGMM had issues so put the gas block on. Runs good now, but still dirty, using a Q Thunder Chicken.
I lube it well/heavily. (bolt/carrier not the can)
I lube it well/heavily. (bolt/carrier not the can)
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SR25, QCB suppressor, FTW. IMO that's the best all around suppressor made, period. Costly but worth it, especially if you have a KAC rifle. It'll also work on .300BLK too.
Don't need a damn thing, just twist it on and go. Properly designed and built weapons generally don't need adj. gas blocks. I don't own one and I don't have any problems, suppressed or not, SBR or not, supers or not. If it's done right, it'll work. I don't understand these guys with the adj. gas blocks, I really don't.
For any other AR10 I'd probably say go with a Saker. Great can, handles abuse, well made, costs less. Or a TBAC, depending. For the SR25, keep it in the family.
The Surefire cans are good, but if you already have the KAC mount then go KAC instead. BTDT.
Don't need a damn thing, just twist it on and go. Properly designed and built weapons generally don't need adj. gas blocks. I don't own one and I don't have any problems, suppressed or not, SBR or not, supers or not. If it's done right, it'll work. I don't understand these guys with the adj. gas blocks, I really don't.
For any other AR10 I'd probably say go with a Saker. Great can, handles abuse, well made, costs less. Or a TBAC, depending. For the SR25, keep it in the family.
The Surefire cans are good, but if you already have the KAC mount then go KAC instead. BTDT.
BTW ... on wetting "dry" cans:
The gases that propel the bullet contain kinetic energy, and that energy has to go somewhere (see: the first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy, yada yada yada).
When a dry suppressor vents those gases through the baffles, the energy is converted through friction to heat (thermal energy) -- which is why suppressors get so hot.
By wetting the inside of the suppressor, the energy in the gas is instead put to work converting the artificial medium (water, oil, grease, etc.) from a liquid form to a vapor. This conversion process very efficiently uses up a tremendous amount of that energy, so there is less residual energy to generate heat -- and, more importantly, there is less residual sound.
When all of the liquid artificial medium has been converted to vapor, there is nothing left for the gases to work on, and the can gets louder again.
In theory, with sufficient volume and artificial medium for the energy to "work on," a wet suppressor would be completely silent. In reality, a centerfire round would require a suppressor the size of a 55-gallon drum to do so.
Also note that air and gases can be compressed, while water (and artificial media) cannot. Suppressors are designed and built to withstand a certain level of pressure before the seams let go and they grenade. The pressure generated by venting a given caliber's gases into a can of known volume can be calculated, and the suppressor is built to withstand that level.
But adding non-compressible media reduces the volume remaining to contain the expanding gases. Putting the same amount of gas into a smaller volume raises pressure levels -- and, in some cases, beyond the suppressor's design strength.
The lesson herein: Unless your suppressor is rated for wet use, contact the manufacturer before adding any artificial medium.
The gases that propel the bullet contain kinetic energy, and that energy has to go somewhere (see: the first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy, yada yada yada).
When a dry suppressor vents those gases through the baffles, the energy is converted through friction to heat (thermal energy) -- which is why suppressors get so hot.
By wetting the inside of the suppressor, the energy in the gas is instead put to work converting the artificial medium (water, oil, grease, etc.) from a liquid form to a vapor. This conversion process very efficiently uses up a tremendous amount of that energy, so there is less residual energy to generate heat -- and, more importantly, there is less residual sound.
When all of the liquid artificial medium has been converted to vapor, there is nothing left for the gases to work on, and the can gets louder again.
In theory, with sufficient volume and artificial medium for the energy to "work on," a wet suppressor would be completely silent. In reality, a centerfire round would require a suppressor the size of a 55-gallon drum to do so.
Also note that air and gases can be compressed, while water (and artificial media) cannot. Suppressors are designed and built to withstand a certain level of pressure before the seams let go and they grenade. The pressure generated by venting a given caliber's gases into a can of known volume can be calculated, and the suppressor is built to withstand that level.
But adding non-compressible media reduces the volume remaining to contain the expanding gases. Putting the same amount of gas into a smaller volume raises pressure levels -- and, in some cases, beyond the suppressor's design strength.
The lesson herein: Unless your suppressor is rated for wet use, contact the manufacturer before adding any artificial medium.
You are correct, and maybe I can offer some insight on where we may disagree.
First off, KAC and suppressors go together like peanut butter and jelly. They are absolutely the pinnacle of perfection. I run SF on all my KAC, but I definitely don’t dislike the KAC cans.
Here’s where we may see things differently: the KAC were designed from the ground up to be a complete system. The gas ports, the length of the gas system, the buffer weight, everything was designed to work together and be the best there is both suppressed and non. Just read the interweb sites about gas systems, dwell times, etc. Most folks will preach that you can’t run a mid length gas system on a 14.5” gun. The dwell time is too short, it’ll never be reliable, yada yada. Meanwhile, I’m smashing thousands of rounds out of my KAC 14.5” with its mid length, and it’s the SOFTEST gun I shoot. I run it suppressed 100% of the time.
My SR-25 ACC runs like a sewing machine as well. No adjustable GB on either one. Now, here’s the difference: KAC puts thousands of hours into research and R&D to ensure this. There are SOCOM units using these guns to shoot booger eaters that hate us. They have to work.
You grab your typical off the shelf DPMS, PSA, S&W MP10 etc. they are absolutely NOT going to run like a KAC. Suppressed or otherwise. The answer here is simple: throw an adj gas block on it, choke it down to a more manageable level, and rock on.
Here’s the thing: most companies are absolutely not going to do the T&E to ensure absolute reliability under all the variables that the super top tier companies do. Hodge, KAC, LMT come to mind. These guys are in a different league. The prices reflect that though. MOST folks, and for them they aren’t wrong, are NOT going to pay $4200-$4500 for an SR-25 ACC. They can’t justify it when a S&W MP10 is under $2K. For them that works. I don’t fault them. Just know you’re going to need that adj GB to run most of the time.
I do wonder if you just used an SF can on any of those if it would run reliably suppressed. The aperture size on the SF is pretty generous. What it lacks in db ratings = low back pressure / large frame reliability.
You do bring up an interesting point. The SF can often gets hit due to it not being “the quietest.” That is true, and I concede that. What it does do though is it has an excellent mounting system. Super durable, will not shoot loose, very repeatable. Also, the can is overbuilt and STRONG. It is designed in such a way as a baffle Strike will be handled, and it will exit the front of the van, not the sides.
Lastly, it is a very low back pressure can. It runs so well on my KAC ACC, that I don’t even need an adj GB. The can also doesn’t spit gas and lube/oil all over my glasses.
So, while it’s not necessarily the “quietest”, the other things it does, it does extremely well. So it’s worth it to me, for what I do.
