Are heavy barrels more accurate???

[Nocalphoenix]

I have been drooling over multiple heavy barrel .22 for a while, most notibly a couple of the Savage models and the xt-22VR from Marlin. Both have been dang near impossible to get in Hawaii so I am getting to the point of going with a standard sporter weight barrel. I understand a heavier rifle can handle better in position shooting and settles into the bags or a bipod better but for a .22 does it really matter? In centerfires I have seen plenty of light barrels shoot very well until they heated up but I cannot recall every shooting a bolt action .22 fast enough to change a point of impact.

If the raw steel is the same, same carbide button is pulled through and the chamber specs are the same would the outside barrel diameter make a real difference? I am thinking a heavy barrel could be less sensitive to harmonics. If weight is the only issue it will be easier to weight a stock than wait 6 months for a chance at a rifle.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

Basically no.
Harmonics can change but if the bullet leaves the muzzle at the right time in the harmonics either barrel can be accurate. Heat however can be different.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

not that i want to disagree, but i'm for the heavy barrel is more accurate camp. actually let's not say accurate as much as more consistant.

1. otherwise target, varmint, and precision rifles would not have them on the rig.

2. heavy barrel does control harmonics, "whip" and heat warp (though not much with rimfires in comparison to centerfire)

3. the extra weight produces a more stable platform, more contact with the receiver, and less barrel "flip" during the even close to non existant recoil.

4. SAVAGE MKII heavy vs. sporter barrel

5. ask any rimfire benchrest shooter why their barrel is 3" thick, they can probably site alot more technical mumbo jumbo than i on the physics of it.
some rimefirebenrest forums http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forums/
http://rimfireshooting.com/
and RFC

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not that i want to disagree, but i'm for the heavy barrel is more accurate camp. actually let's not say accurate as much as more consistant.

1. otherwise target, varmint, and precision rifles would not have them on the rig.

2. heavy barrel does control harmonics, "whip" and heat warp (though not much with rimfires in comparison to centerfire)

3. the extra weight produces a more stable platform, more contact with the receiver, and less barrel "flip" during the even close to non existant recoil.

4. SAVAGE MKII heavy vs. sporter barrel

5. ask any rimfire benchrest shooter why their barrel is 3" thick, they can probably site alot more technical mumbo jumbo than i on the physics of it.
some rimefirebenrest forums http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forums/
http://rimfireshooting.com/
and RFC </div></div>
I agree with all of this but he specified "accuracy" so that is why I say a thin barrel "can" be just as accurate as any heavy barrel based on his criteria.

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I can understand the rimfire bench guys seem to go nuts with tuners and extremely heavy barrels. In this case I believe the standard Marlin measures .625" vs .810" at the muzzle for the heavier version.

The barrels seem like they do not have much of a taper and looking at Pacnors weight calculator the .625" should be about 1.55lb vs .810 weighing about 2.76lbs, both finished at 20". Looking at them the barrel does not seem to much heavier but its actually 78% more mass in the barrel which totally shocked me. As a comparison a straight .920 common on the 10-22s goes about 3.62lbs.

Looking at the importance of crown, chambering and barrel quality I cannot find myself seeing a heavy barrel as being more accurate from any given manufacture. But I can see how the extra mass will allow more consistency from a wider variety of ammo. I guess ultimatly I think they should be equal but the sporter might take a bit more time and effort to find an ammo it loves.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DFOOSKING</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I honestly think barrels are either accurate or not. They can be worked on and improved and can also be harmed. There isn't a set formula given that will guarantee a barrel to be a tackdriver. I believe the attention to detail whether intentional or not is what makes it good.</div></div>
Agree whole-heartedly! I've seen stock 10/22 barrels worked a little bit that shoot similar to some KIDD barrels... but they are the exception not the rule (unfortunately). I think it was touched on earlier about the heavy barrels being more consistant. That is key to "accuracy."

But the bottom line is that the barrel either works or doesn't. Heavy or pencil-thin doesn't matter.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

I had composed about 8 paragraphs of reasoning on this question; and realized eventually that I really just don't know and had actually ended up arguing with myself.

The answer is no. Not because they aren't, but because it's not really possible to make a both accurate and general statement about this.

My advice; get what's available and find the ammo it likes. It may shoot pretty good, it may shoot lights out, but damned few rimfires shoot like poop. It's just not in their basic character.

I strongly caution against obsessing over the absolute accuracy aspect, and advise you to just embrace the .22LR for what it is, fun with a great pricetag. Not just fun either; the repetitive aspect, combined with the excellent economy, offer a potential for learning as well.

Take it all for what it's worth, and let somebody else worry about having the most accurate 22 on the block (...island...?).

Greg

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

Hahaha, that great Greg, I had probably the same 8 paragraphs running through my head. It seems like we are indoctrinated as shooters to think a heavy barrel equals accuracy but it was my Tikkas that blew all of that out of the water. I have a T3 lite and T3 heavy in .223 and they shoot identical groups until I try to cook the barrel off, then the heavy seems to hold a bit more consistency.

I figure by the time I whack the barrel to 16.5", pillar bed, and dick with it in general any theoretical difference between a light or heavy barrel will be out the window so I ordered a standard weight barrel yesterday.

Challenge #2 is getting a variety of ammo, just found out yesterday I cannot mail order ammo in Hawaii. I am going back to the mainland next week so I will be carrying back the max load of ammo in a checked bag.

 

[SporterII]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

For me, a heavier rifle well balanced will be easier for me to shoot it well.
That said, the most accurate and consistantly accurate rimfire rifle I have ever had wore a sporter weight 20" barrel.
I currently have another of that same type [452 American] and it out shoots me also. First one was sold to a benchrest shooter who called me back to thank me.
I'm talking real .2's and .3's at 50yds with no special bench rest equipment. For some that is not so hot but in my world, a Hbar never performed better .

Edited to clarify;
Sporter with Marvin P. custom rings holding a Leupold 2-7 rimfire special.

 

[hatidua]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

I've had very accurate pencil-barreled rifles and rather inaccurate heavy-barreled rifles. When I think of all the other factors that affect how my rifle groups on a given day, barrel diameter is rather far down the list (with a .22).

 

[Joenavy85]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hatidua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've had very accurate pencil-barreled rifles and rather inaccurate heavy-barreled rifles. When I think of all the other factors that affect how my rifle groups on a given day, barrel diameter is rather far down the list (with a .22). </div></div>

Agreed, I don't think it's as big an issue with 22's as it is with larger calibers. I would guess that it's a bigger deal with the 17HMR's due to their velocity. My 10/22 has a pencil barrel and the groups start opening up once the barrel is hot, but the change is marginal (+1/4-1/2" at 50 yards). My Savage 93R17 has a heavy barrel and maintains groups even when it's hot. In both cases I don't have any opposing data for the rifles, and don't want to cough up more money just to test it out.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
5. ask any rimfire benchrest shooter why their barrel is 3" thick, they can probably site alot more technical mumbo jumbo than i on the physics of it.
some rimefirebenrest forums http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forums/
http://rimfireshooting.com/
and RFC </div></div>

Calfee makes some pencil-barreled 22's and he can get away with it because he fits them with tuners. If you aren't going to run a tuner, then, yeah, thicker is probably better.

A thicker barrel reduces the amplitude of the harmonics while a tuner adjusts the location of the nodes.

In other words, if you have a heavy barrel and the muzzle is not on a node, the effect of not being on a node will be lessened. A tuner, on the other hand, eliminates the issue entirely by placing the muzzle on a node.

For those folks who shoot 3-position, they are shooting iron sights and can't have a tuner where their front sight should be, so they typically run thick barrels. In benchrest, some do, some don't, and pretty much everyone runs a tuner.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

^^ I'll add to Carters great observations that many pencil barrels are NOT free-floated and have a support point at a spot. This can act like a tuner...

Great conversation. Thanks for starting it NCPhoenix

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

Hows this on food for thought....

Could a heavy barrel be more accurate because the bore is more concentric due to greater mass which would lead to greater consistency inside the bore? Was thinking outside the box and wondering about displacement of metal when a button for rifling is pulled/pushed through. It seems a heavy barrel would be less effected by a button while a sporter barrel could end up with a greater diameter at the muzzle than the breach due to greater elasticity of the thinner barrel wall.

In my experience of setting up pistols for cast bullets a slight taper to the bore from hand lapping or firelapping has never failed to show a vast improvment in accuracy. Several of my Ruger Bisleys went from decent shooters to sub 2" groups at 50 yards and thats about the best I can do with open sights. Since we are basicly dealing with soft lead bullets at low velocities would a taper bore provide the same effect with rimfires?

Getting a sporter barrel xt-22 out of waiting period jail this week and I have a feeling it might be a sacrificed to satisy curiosity about barrel lengths, crowns and lapping.

 

[BigJimFish]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">barrel diameter is rather far down the list (with a .22)</div></div>

Honestly, it's a ways down the list for many center-fires. On a .22lr barrel diameter is barely a factor at all. It has far more to do with the shooters stability in most cases than the rifle function. Anschutz makes some amazingly thin barreled models in their Biathlon line. Guess how they shoot.

 

[tman300wm]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

I'm not sure I'm going to agree with you on the "thin barrel is just as accurate as a heavy barrel" idea. There is some very interesting research on barrel harmonics and the 22LR bench rifle. Barrel harmonics play a major factor in accuracy, and the weight and length of a barrel are all determining factors in that equation. I'm not a benchrest shooter, and I don't claim to be an expert on anything, but it has been my experience that heavy barreled riffles do "in fact" shoot better groups than thin barreled rifles. Obviously, there are a multitude of other factors and variables that result in an accurate rifle. Ammunition, quality of the barrel, how the chamber was cut, trueness of the barrel to the action, trueness of the bolt face, barrel crown, and of course the guy pulling the trigger. However, the bottom line is you don't see folks setting world records for group size in any of the F-Class, and small bore benchrest disciplines with thin barrels! The proof is in the pudding.

Read this:
http://varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek089.html

Will a thin barrel shoot accurately? Yes. Will it suit your needs? Only you can answer that question. Will you go and win a benchrest comp with it? Not likely, but tell me how it goes for you. Is the barrel weight the single determining factor in accuracy? No, but it is a major component, enough so that competitive shooters spend lots of time and money tweaking their barrels and buying only the best quality barrels available.

 

[Rifleman1]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

I bought a Marlin XT-22 sporter barrel, and for a sporter, it is a pretty thick barrel. I just started shooting it a lot lately, and have not pressed it out past 50 yards yet.
With a Nikon Prostaff rimfire scope, it will shoot 1/2" to 1/4" groups at 50 yards with CCI .22 cheapo ammo. I was teaching my 11 year old grand son how to shoot, and he was hitting the target bullseye every time at the end of the lesson. He was a little shakey, but if it was in the red, we called it a bullseye.
I tried some of the elay ammo on a bench rest at 50 yards, and was getting groups of 3/8" and less with a couple of one ragged hole groups to boot. This is just a 200 dollar XT-22 with the black synthetic stock.
I love the looks of a bull barrel rifle a lot, and wanted an XT-22 with the heavy barrel, until I shot my little cheapy. I bought it for varmint control and plinking, but now I think it is accurate enough for just about anything I could want to do with it.
As soon as I get my dirt pile back stop made this spring, I am going to see what it will do out to 100 yards. It may do well, or it may suck, I dont know. I have a feeling it will do as well as most bull barrels at that too!
I am not sure I have found it's favorite ammo yet, but it seems to like CCI for just fun shooting and target practice. And the Elay works well in just about any .22 rifle for close group target shooting.

 

[10ringping]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

I agree its not that important on rimfire rifles.

 

[nfngun]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

Are they Not nessisarily ... I wouldnt consider a CZ sporter to be heavy by any means and they can be literal tack drivers, Where marlin are far more bulled then sporter and unless you get a real jem it will not keep up with a sporter CZ.

It comes down too design, quality controal and the individual barrell. There are allot of reasons why bulls are prefered but it wont make them the hands down better shot. As posted above they will help with consistgency between shots.

 

[PRDRIVER]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

I don't know if a heavy barrel is all that critical to accuracy on a .22 LR.

I think the chamber and rifling are more important, especially on a .22 LR. Heavy barrels are designed to be stiff/rigid and deal with the effects of increased heat better than lighter weight barrels. Accuracy is all about consistency. Heavy barrel profiles help increase that consistency.

Centerfire rifles with their higher muzzle velocities and significantly larger powder loads have a tendency to quickly heat up a barrel. With the amount of powder in a .22 case and muzzle velocities anywhere from 1000-1400 FPS, it will most likely take some pretty sustained fire to heat a .22 LR barrel to the point where accuracy will start to degrade.

 

[ms6852]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

I for one believe that it does have an advantage over a sporter barrel in the following manner. The heavier barrel and platform will allow for better follow through in your sight picture. The recoil will be less felt and your sight picture will be insight after you squeeze the barrel. Many problems in shooting can be faulted in follow through.

 

[Mike Sobr]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

It goes against common sense but those guys that shoot RBA 50 yard matches where you shoot 50 yards at 25 bulls the size of pencil erasers stood on end (and hit 20 or more) use some pretty skinny barrels and I never seen anybody at a match with a big bull barrel. Some of the new barrells are even reverse tapered and are skinny then get bigger towards the muzzle and they are shooting amazing good.

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Are heavy barrels more accurate???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Imurhuckleberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I for one believe that it does have an advantage over a sporter barrel in the following manner. The heavier barrel and platform will allow for better follow through in your sight picture. The recoil will be less felt and your sight picture will be insight after you squeeze the barrel. Many problems in shooting can be faulted in follow through.</div></div>

I think anytime you start shooting stuff with a barrel time similiar to subsonics the follow through is extremely critical. I learned more about follow thorugh with a muzzleloader than with any other weapon. Going with a heavy focus on follow through makes a measurable difference in my position shooting and is the single best aspect of using a .22 as a trainer for me.