Rifle Scopes Are S&B really that good

#52
Re: Are S&B really that good

When I considered buying a S&B I called one of the well respected vendors on this site and asked the same question, he replied " you obviously haven't looked through one have you?" I finally took the plunge and bought one. One look through and you can tell the difference compared to my Nightforces and Leupolds. I also love the features and controls of my new S&B. However, with money tighter these days I'll probably stick to Nightforces, I love them too. If I could afford all S&B I'd own them.
 
#53
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sickeness</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">S&B, USO, Zeiss Hensoldt. Coinflip. </div></div>

USO's glass nowhere near the quality of the other 2 you listed. </div></div>

I concur. My USO was fishbowly. Love my S&B
 
#54
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Thought the Premiers were made in Nunya? Isn't that what the boss said? Oh no that's where the parts are sourced
wink.gif


He also said "At any rate, all of our optics and precision mechanical parts are sourced in Germany, the rest...well it varies." So looks like you will also have to settle for assembled in the USA.
grin.gif


http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1449299 </div></div>

One of many reasons why my money is going to S&B and Nightforce, straight up honest people.

I wouldn't own another Heritage if you gave it to me.
</div></div>
WoW....Why didn't you say that when you still worked there?
 
#55
Re: Are S&B really that good

Because we wanted to keep our jobs for as long as possible, sales and technical service reps aren't really supposed to say anything bad about the product they're trying to push, it defeats the purpose. Truth be told though Jerry and I were the only long range shooting enthusiasts at Premier and neither of us used the company product on our personal rifles.
 
#57
Re: Are S&B really that good

The only scopes I continue to use are the S&Bs. I even use my S&Bs on my F-class rifles although the 0.1 mil adjustments somewhat coarse for F-class open. To me the glass is better and the adjustments are absolutely reliable.
 
#58
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigger Monkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because we wanted to keep our jobs for as long as possible, sales and technical service reps aren't really supposed to say anything bad about the product they're trying to push, it defeats the purpose. Truth be told though Jerry and I were the only long range shooting enthusiasts at Premier and neither of us used the company product on our personal rifles. </div></div>

OK, I have a real issue with this post.

What you have just admitted to is that you were totally OK to lie and deceive the people of this forum who you talked into buying a product you didn't even see fit to use yourself, just for a paycheck. You got FIRED - you didn't quit, you were FIRED - that means you were willing to CONTINUE lying to people.

But you expect us to think that now you're all honest and noble? I'm not doubting that there were issues in the beginning - i personally don't know one way or the other, but you are not a well-intentioned informer to people on this forum.

Give me a frigging break and STFU already.
 
#59
Re: Are S&B really that good

In my opinion SB is still the best, and NF is still the best value.

I run a USO on one rifle because it has a Horus reticle.

I like a single turn CCW Mil knobs and I don't have a problem with the adjustments being very close together, so I like SB.

But I like being able to mount a 30mm tube lower. Great glass is a plus, but all I really care about in a scope is that tracks well and takes a beating, and I have never had an issue with any NF.

If you don't have a SB, get one because you need at least one. But, if you already have one SB, then get NF's for your working rifles and use the extra money to attend the matches.
 
#60
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigger Monkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because we wanted to keep our jobs for as long as possible, sales and technical service reps aren't really supposed to say anything bad about the product they're trying to push, it defeats the purpose. Truth be told though Jerry and I were the only long range shooting enthusiasts at Premier and neither of us used the company product on our personal rifles. </div></div>

OK, I have a real issue with this post.

What you have just admitted to is that you were totally OK to lie and deceive the people of this forum who you talked into buying a product you didn't even see fit to use yourself, just for a paycheck. You got FIRED - you didn't quit, you were FIRED - that means you were willing to CONTINUE lying to people.

But you expect us to think that now you're all honest and noble? I'm not doubting that there were issues in the beginning - i personally don't know one way or the other, but you are not a well-intentioned informer to people on this forum.

Give me a frigging break and STFU already.</div></div>

So do you think ALL the sales guys you have ever dealt with have been totally honest?
 
#61
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion SB is still the best, and NF is still the best value.

I run a USO on one rifle because it has a Horus reticle.

I like a single turn CCW Mil knobs and I don't have a problem with the adjustments being very close together, so I like SB.

But I like being able to mount a 30mm tube lower. Great glass is a plus, but all I really care about in a scope is that tracks well and takes a beating, and I have never had an issue with any NF.

If you don't have a SB, get one because you need at least one. But, if you already have one SB, then get NF's for your working rifles and use the extra money to attend the matches. </div></div>

This post makes a perfect point!!

I also feel that SB is the best. I have owned USO, NIGHFORCE, S&B, LEUPOLD, KAHLES, SWAROVSKI.

The glass is the SB is better than all the scopes I have listed except Swarovski. Swarovski does not make a tactical scope though. The only down side to SB is that most of the scopes are CW. That really bites IMO. If you have all SB then it is not a problem but most of us can not afford to have all SB. I wish the CCW were easier to get.
 
#62
Re: Are S&B really that good

EventHorizon,

Excuse me but I never said anywhere in my post that I was OK with lying to customers, nor did I say that I had lied to customers. You were simply making assumptions and putting words in my mouth with your post.

In addition to that yes I was fired from Premier Reticles and I'm much happier now, however it has nothing to do with what has been discussed. Additionally you don't know me personally or otherwise so how can you comment on my character on our first interaction here. I could make some assumptions about you based on this attack but I'm not going to. Seeing as how this thread is about S&B's if you wish to discuss this further PM me and I promise I won't tell you to STFU.
 
#63
Re: Are S&B really that good

They don't come back to me and say 'OK, I was full of shit before, but NOW I'm telling you the way it is'. Thinking that he has no other agenda than honesty would be as naive as thinking all salesmen are honest. I'm not naive, just countering what I perceive to be continued, relentless, mal-intentioned posts from someone who has admitted to being a liar.
 
#64
Re: Are S&B really that good

What you wrote is there for all to see. Dress it up as you see fit. I'm sorry for the STFU comment, that was emotion getting the better of me. However, I still stand by the idea and my comments that you have the well-being of people on this forum at heart as much now and you did when you were praising a product to them that you yourself did not believe in at all.

If you want to say 'that was just a job' then fine. Still speaks to your character pal, whether you like it or not. I don't want to clog up this thread anymore than I have. if you want to carry on with this, either start a new thread or do so in a PM.

Have a nice day.
 
#66
Re: Are S&B really that good

Respectfully, you guys:

Some of us know what happened at Premier. Others don't. And most don't care. Personally, company politics have always bored me. And beating a dead horse bores everyone. Topic drift is inevitable, but hijacking a thread is inconsiderate. And personal attacks get you banned.

I, for one, am tired of hearing about this glass being 'better' than that glass, and about 'I would buy this one, but I wouldn't keep that one as a gift'. Who else but the author of it cares about that kind of an opinion? And how are those kinds of opinions helpful to the other: to our knowledge of these scopes, how they are built, and why one system or mechanism works better or more accurately than another.

I suggest that if you want to criticize each other, criticize the scopes. And if you want to criticize the scopes, talk about the design characteristics that make one premium scope better than the other.

If you can't do that, you're wasting bandwidth.
 
#67
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suggest that if you want to criticize each other, criticize the scopes. And if you want to criticize the scopes, talk about the design characteristics that make one premium scope better than the other.

If you can't do that, you're wasting bandwidth.</div></div>
I could hardly agree more. But you have to think of the people that are making money on bandwidth. They need to make a living, too.
 
#68
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you wrote is there for all to see. Dress it up as you see fit. I'm sorry for the STFU comment, that was emotion getting the better of me. However, I still stand by the idea and my comments that you have the well-being of people on this forum at heart as much now and you did when you were praising a product to them that you yourself did not believe in at all.

If you want to say 'that was just a job' then fine. Still speaks to your character pal, whether you like it or not. I don't want to clog up this thread anymore than I have. if you want to carry on with this, either start a new thread or do so in a PM.

Have a nice day. </div></div>

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you there. You might have the luxury of a job that you agree 100% with anything and everything that your company does, but I would wager a majority of jobs out there require people to go along with whatever the "party line" is to continue to receive a paycheck. Does this mean people are lying all the time if they're in sales? By no means, but does this mean that they promote the positives of their product and not highlight the drawbacks of it? That's called sales.
If you're independently wealthy, well congrats to you, but a lot of hard working people do what they do to bring home money to put food on the table for their families. To attack his character because he was promoting a product that his job required him do is out of line.
 
#69
Re: Are S&B really that good

Back on the topic of the posters. This stuff is not helping the guy.

I still would wait until the shoot show is over with and see what is new on the market. If you have 5 NFs and are happy with them. You are not losing with staying with them. They are great scopes. The other side of the coin. Why not try something new? I shoot both scopes and they are dead on. I do like some of S&Bs features better than the NF. Either way you can't go wrong.
 
#70
Re: Are S&B really that good

yesterday was a winter day in Italy, overcast, mist conditions temperature 3 C°, 85% RH DA avg -200 m

approaching the sunset fog started to rise and at only 100 m looking to target with my Leoupold Mark IV TMR spotting scope the image was not so clear and very dark..... quite difficult to see holes on the paper... and was only 100 m...

with my S&B PMII 3-12x 50 the target image was more clear, I've seen my holes and also I was able to hit a 5 inches steel target...

unable to see it with my Leupold.....
 
#72
Re: Are S&B really that good

S&B worth every penny. I'm after an 12-50 F-class to go with the 5-25. They also offer ME something that not everybody needs/wants - close focus. They're also FFP - which matters to me.

In the US I'd have to say I'd look seriously at USO as well. They're after all close to home if you want any backup. I have an USO-SN9 10-42*80 and that is stunningly sharp.

The glass on NF simply fails to impress me. I appreciate they have other pluses. Every year I visit them at the IWA and always hope I'll like them. I'd really like a NF series to convince me - no really. The fact they're SFP limits their use for me but an NF 12-42 with CH3 reticle would be nice.

I've also liked IOR glass since I saw the first ones over here. As they're in the EU it makes support easier for me. Have 4 at the moment.
 
#73
Re: Are S&B really that good

The clarity and quality of the S&B to me is worth it. Others have recommended a look at USO. My SN-3 is good but the clarity doesn't compare. I also had issues with not only the scope but also the accessories from USO. I'd only part with the S&B to get a different reticle and turrets.
 
#74
Re: Are S&B really that good

Wonderful scopes, and in a word, "German engineering".
My 4-16-42 mil,mil is, as I've said before, quite possibly the worlds most perfect scope.
 
#75
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SFree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wonderful scopes, and in a word, "German engineering".
My 4-16-42 mil,mil is, as I've said before, quite possibly the worlds most perfect scope. </div></div>
1+
 
#76
Re: Are S&B really that good

I went to sight in this puppy and let me tell ya it was no fun at all..


TWO SHOTS and was zeroed was 1 1/4" high and 1/2" to the right 5 clicks down two to the left and centered, using TPS 34mm rings as per feature recommendation, completely happy with this setup, heavy as hell but i'll be saaweet!
 
#77
Re: Are S&B really that good

I could not agree more! The S&B 4-16x42 PMII/LP GEN II XR I have has all the attributes I ever wanted. Could use an ARD though. I am for sure spoiled now, but there are some good new scopes finally coming to market. I would consider NF NSX, but I don't like the multi turn elevation knob (x5) and their price on the FFP is getting up there. The single turn CCW elevation knob is great on the S&B.

I thank Jasonk for selling me my scope that was NIB.
wink.gif
 
#78
Re: Are S&B really that good

To me!!!!!! I think the IOR glass is a lot better TO ME!!!!!as far as finish, and tracking mine was awsome 100% from 1000 down to 100 every time. But at the cost of 1,000,000 each
smile.gif
and my life does not depend on one, I will never buy another. I will buy 5 more rifles/w scopes, the one with the most toys wins when you die
smile.gif
 
#79
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhedg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me!!!!!! I think the IOR glass is a lot better TO ME!!!!!as far as finish, and tracking mine was awsome 100% from 1000 down to 100 every time. But at the cost of 1,000,000 each
smile.gif
and my life does not depend on one, I will never buy another. I will buy 5 more rifles/w scopes, the one with the most toys wins when you die
smile.gif
</div></div>

I was also going to buy an IOR however i've got 3-12x50 PMII which i'm selling atm however i think glass wise and build quality S&B is a no brainer. It's costly for you in US however same goes for us in Europe when considering NF/USO... Like it or no in the end everything boils down to money availabe and value we assign to certain features...
 
#80
Re: Are S&B really that good

OP...You have had 5 NF correct? Any failures? There is a point in these scopes where there is a diminishing return. I have had NF SFP scope, even without the zero stop and did not feel disadvantaged in any way. FFP is nice but is not necessary to compete or to hunt. If you have had no failures with the NF and you prefer MOA/MOA then that leaves you with NF or USO. I switched to USO for the creature comforts (27moa per rev, 11 pos illum, 17x, etc.) but it will be my only scope. A regular old NXS will work great for comp/hunt. The S&B buys you better glass. Is it worth the better glass to give up MOA/MOA? It wouldn't be for me if i trained MOA/MOA. If your willing to spend the money and really good glass is your thing then make the switch.
 
#81
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bertrillium-Zantitium is really where its at. </div></div>
Nice.


If you can spend $3,000 on a scope, no reason I know not to buy Hensoldt.
 
#82
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OP...You have had 5 NF correct? Any failures? There is a point in these scopes where there is a diminishing return. I have had NF SFP scope, even without the zero stop and did not feel disadvantaged in any way. FFP is nice but is not necessary to compete or to hunt. If you have had no failures with the NF and you prefer MOA/MOA then that leaves you with NF or USO. I switched to USO for the creature comforts (27moa per rev, 11 pos illum, 17x, etc.) but it will be my only scope.<span style="font-weight: bold"> A regular old NXS will work great for comp/hunt. The S&B buys you better glass. Is it worth the better glass to give up MOA/MOA? It wouldn't be for me if i trained MOA/MOA.</span> If your willing to spend the money and really good glass is your thing then make the switch. </div></div>



Once I tried the Mil/Mil I found that I like that set up better
 
#83
Re: Are S&B really that good

I'm far from experienced in this game. The vast majority of my shooting is either at known-distances, or "pretty closely guessed" distances.

With that in mind, it seems to me a variable scope with a 2nd focal-plane range-finding reticle is just "stupid". It's right up there with having the reticle in one set of units and the knobs in entirely different units. There are some scopes that even COMBINE both of these "stupid" components.

I have a Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x50mm with the NP-R2 reticle. As long as I PRETEND it's a fixed 15x and just leave it there, it's awesome (although I wish it were an NP-R1).

I have two of the Premier Reticles 5-25x56mm with the Gen 2 XR reticle. It's awfully nice to be able to dial it up / down without having to worry about the reticle units (effectively) changing.

I also have a Gen 2 IOR Valdada 3-18x42 with the custom modified MP-8 A5 reticle.

MOA / MOA or MIL / MIL, I don't think I care, although if I had to pick only one today it would be MIL / MIL.

Price-wise, I think they go something like:

IOR 3-18x42 FFP Sniper's Hide Edition Gen 4 - $1549
Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50mm - $2000
Nightforce NXS F1 3.5-15x50mm - $2290
Premier Heritage 3-15x50mm - $2745
Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm - $2925
S&B - $3500+

I almost went with the Vortex Razor, but then there was all that drama with advertised prices -vs- "street" prices and frankly I'd never even HEARD of Vortex before, so the Premier was a pretty easy choice. The hardest part was deciding between 3-15x and 5-25x. Since I never dialed my Nightforce below 15x anyway, I went with the 5-25x.
 
#84
Re: Are S&B really that good

On my IOR 3-18x42mm FFP Sniper's Hide Edition GEN 2, and to a lesser extent on my Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x50mm, I have a heck of a time getting the graduations on the knobs to line up EXACTLY with the index mark on the scope.

I like to see a perfectly vertical line between the increments on the knob and the fixed point on the scope body.

The more times you unscrew the hex-head lock screws and re-tighten them, the more difficult it becomes to get everything to line up perfectly.

With the Premier, you simply flip the lock on the top 180 degrees and "click" back to zero. Then lock it. Everything stays lined up perfectly.

It may sound like a little-thing, but I think it's freaking awesome.
 
#85
Re: Are S&B really that good

i just wanted to say thanks for the help to the guys that stayed on subject. i just ordered a schmit and bender 4x16x50 p4f moa from Mile High on the hide. i should have it middle of next week. i just couldnt go without trying one.

toby
 
#86
Re: Are S&B really that good

The 4-16x50 with the P4 fine is an excellent scope, you will not regret your choice. I have several and would not part with them for any thing.
 
#87
Re: Are S&B really that good

If comparing how about the S&B 4x16x50 $2450 at mile high shooting. Everybody compares these scopes without putting in this price. If looking at a scope that has a track record. I would choose this one over the others for the price.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm far from experienced in this game. The vast majority of my shooting is either at known-distances, or "pretty closely guessed" distances.

With that in mind, it seems to me a variable scope with a 2nd focal-plane range-finding reticle is just "stupid". It's right up there with having the reticle in one set of units and the knobs in entirely different units. There are some scopes that even COMBINE both of these "stupid" components.

I have a Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x50mm with the NP-R2 reticle. As long as I PRETEND it's a fixed 15x and just leave it there, it's awesome (although I wish it were an NP-R1).

I have two of the Premier Reticles 5-25x56mm with the Gen 2 XR reticle. It's awfully nice to be able to dial it up / down without having to worry about the reticle units (effectively) changing.

I also have a Gen 2 IOR Valdada 3-18x42 with the custom modified MP-8 A5 reticle.

MOA / MOA or MIL / MIL, I don't think I care, although if I had to pick only one today it would be MIL / MIL.

Price-wise, I think they go something like:

IOR 3-18x42 FFP Sniper's Hide Edition Gen 4 - $1549
Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50mm - $2000
Nightforce NXS F1 3.5-15x50mm - $2290
Premier Heritage 3-15x50mm - $2745
Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm - $2925
S&B - $3500+

I almost went with the Vortex Razor, but then there was all that drama with advertised prices -vs- "street" prices and frankly I'd never even HEARD of Vortex before, so the Premier was a pretty easy choice. The hardest part was deciding between 3-15x and 5-25x. Since I never dialed my Nightforce below 15x anyway, I went with the 5-25x.



</div></div>
 
#88
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Price-wise, I think they go something like:

IOR 3-18x42 FFP Sniper's Hide Edition Gen 4 - $1549
Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50mm - $2000
Nightforce NXS F1 3.5-15x50mm - $2290
S&B PMII 4-16x50mm CM single-turn - $2500 (special one-time sale @ Mile High)
Premier Heritage 3-15x50mm - $2745
Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm - $2925
Typical S&B pricing - $3500+

</div></div>
 
#91
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tai_Mai_Shu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love my S&B 5x25 it would be hard for me to switch after having the S&B. I was shooting a competition and others where having problems with mirage and couldn&#146;t even see their target. I had no problem and had clear visibility.
Mike</div></div>

I know I am not the most experienced shooter, but I don't think any certain scope will fix a mirage problem. Mirage is mirage, it is there either way.
 
#92
Re: Are S&B really that good

thanks guys you have me so excited for a SandB that i just bought my second in less then a week. hope i made a good choice in these.

toby
 
#93
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tjonh2001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks guys you have me so excited for a SandB that i just bought my second in less then a week. hope i made a good choice in these.

toby </div></div>

I have 6. Its a sickness
 
#94
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tjonh2001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks guys you have me so excited for a SandB that i just bought my second in less then a week. hope i made a good choice in these.

toby </div></div> I don't feel like such a dumbass now! At least not alone
wink.gif
 
#96
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seporith</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tjonh2001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks guys you have me so excited for a SandB that i just bought my second in less then a week. hope i made a good choice in these.

toby </div></div> I don't feel like such a dumbass now! At least not alone
wink.gif
</div></div>

Me too, I have 2 PMII's 5x25
 
#98
Re: Are S&B really that good

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tjonh2001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im going to look for a 5x25 for my f class rifle. </div></div>
If your going to be shooting F-Class with a PMII 5-25X you'll definitely want to look into (pun intended) a Gen 2 XR-equipped one. Mirage notwithstanding, the fine lines will allow you to easily quarter the X-ring at 1,000 yards.

Unfortunately, and as you may know PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XRs' have become sort of scarce and command a premium these days. However, if you can get ahold of one you will not disappointed. Checking the FS threads here frequently is the best way to find one.

Keith
 
#100
Re: Are S&B really that good

I spoke to Jeff at USOptics, and the reticle for the MILGAP at the cross hairs subtends to 1.25inches at 1000yards (.125MOA) how does that compare with the P4F and GEN XR? Is that level of sub-tension adequate? (I hope so...).
 
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