Are there any AR 15’s made that you can count on shooting half MOA

[squib-load]

Who the fuck are you to ask anything of anyone on here? Shut your fucking Noob Cum trap, and take your ass back to AR15.com

I've looked through your older post and it's clear you're nothing more then an envious troll, picking fights with people who are far more capable than you.

nice.... so you call out my post.. and my facts.. and when I ask you to show us all your .5 all day long targets.. you know.. to prove it.. you go off on a profanity laced rant.. classy.... makes my point perfectly...

oh.. and trolling a post I made in another section ( the few that I make ) and clicked the dislike button.. oh the horror not the dislike button.. what a clown..

bigjake83 quote.. I'm a bit of a Barrel Snob .... no just a snob and a bully.. there.. fixed it...

now for the rest... you can take whatever AR you want with whatever snobby barrel you want.. hell take the shooter out of it and put it into a rolling inertia shooting machine rest.. you are not going to get an AR to shoot 30 rounds 3x 10 round groups ( repeatability ) under a half minute. there are almost always flyers..

the OP wants a rifle he can COUNT ON to always hit inside a half minute... and without using the, oh I pulled it, the wind shifted, or the other shit excuses shooters use just to get a good 3 or 5 shot group... if you no shit want accuracy and repeatability under a half.. its really not achievable in an AR platform..

now .. as I have said in my original post.. this is strict, never outside a haft for 10 round groups... if you want a rifle that can aggregate under a half and are happy or OK with the occaisional errant shot that doubles the group size.. yeah.. go ahead and chase the rabit down the hole. but dont post a 3 round group that is .25 and shout to the world your AR is a quarter minute all day long .. or like this other clown where he posted a pic of his target with the 100 yard line targets in the background... he fired his target at 50 and pawned it off as a group at 100... heheh

whatever lets you sleep at night..



​​​​​​​

 

[padom]

nice.... so you call out my post.. and my facts.. and when I ask you to show us all your .5 all day long targets.. you know.. to prove it.. you go off on a profanity laced rant.. classy.... makes my point perfectly...

oh.. and trolling a post I made in another section ( the few that I make ) and clicked the dislike button.. oh the horror not the dislike button.. what a clown..

bigjake83 quote.. I'm a bit of a Barrel Snob .... no just a snob and a bully.. there.. fixed it...

now for the rest... you can take whatever AR you want with whatever snobby barrel you want.. hell take the shooter out of it and put it into a rolling inertia shooting machine rest.. you are not going to get an AR to shoot 30 rounds 3x 10 round groups ( repeatability ) under a half minute. there are almost always flyers..

the OP wants a rifle he can COUNT ON to always hit inside a half minute... and without using the, oh I pulled it, the wind shifted, or the other shit excuses shooters use just to get a good 3 or 5 shot group... if you no shit want accuracy and repeatability under a half.. its really not achievable in an AR platform..

now .. as I have said in my original post.. this is strict, never outside a haft for 10 round groups... if you want a rifle that can aggregate under a half and are happy or OK with the occaisional errant shot that doubles the group size.. yeah.. go ahead and chase the rabit down the hole. but dont post a 3 round group that is .25 and shout to the world your AR is a quarter minute all day long .. or like this other clown where he posted a pic of his target with the 100 yard line targets in the background... he fired his target at 50 and pawned it off as a group at 100... heheh

whatever lets you sleep at night..



​​​​​​​

First off, who decided 3 10rd groups are the deciding factor on if a rifle is called a 0.5moa rifle or not? Around here we shoot 5x5 to call a rifle a half minute rifle. If you can shoot 5 groups of 5 that have a 0.5moa or less AGG than we will call it a half minute rifle all day. And look up in this thread, BigJake has posted a target showing those very results as have I on many threads on the forum for various guns Ive built. Not 3 shot groups. Search around a little bit and see whos done what around here.

 

[RTH1800]

Not sure why the focus on 100 meter groups? My rifles are highly selected and finely tuned tools.

I use them for varmint shooting, predator removal and deer culling. If I can put 5 shots on point of aim and under 1 MOA prone with sling or bipod at 600 meters I’m happy. When they are under 1/2 moa at 600 meters I’m thrilled. When they fail I am changing barrels. It’s not complex for me.

I actually seldom shoot 5 shot groups. I normally shoot a cold bore shot at 600m then fire 4 shots at a different POA on the same paper target. I am far more concerned with the cold bore shot than the other 4 or any 25 shot groupings. I change barrels too often as is.

When I get a rifle that puts the CBS in the 2” dot at 600m fairly often I seldom shoot paper with it at all. Just tempature check when weather changes.

My Mk 12 gets 2k per year down the tube and only last 5200-5300 rds before accuracy falls off.

.204’s only make it to 2100 or so.

Oddly enough, 100 meter groups don’t always show the problem. 600 meter groups fall off first.

This is simply my criteria for my needs. Your goals may be far different.

 

[squib-load]

padom well to start.. if anyone takes the time to read my post.. its agnostic and general in nature.. I bash nobodys skills nor anybodys rifles etc. I mearly state my observed opinion on the matter before being attacked...

the op stated reliable accuracy under half minute 'to count on' what that means can be open to disussion but for me that means killing the bad guy not the guy he is holding...

.. we can discuss accuracy, precision and repeatability all day here and that is not my fight nor can I care less. if you think 5x5 is good for your purposes.. fine.. if someone else can sleep at night with one 3 round group out of 100 rounds inside his or her accuracy window.. well then again.. whatever they can live with and lets them sleep at night.

for the all day long catagory of precision, accuracy, and repeatability.. I believe the aggregate of 30 rounds is more representitive of what all day long means to me...

here is a fairly well written article by a guy we all believe is 'in the industry' https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups/118-279218/ take it for whatever you want.. but read it and give it a fair shake

now for bigjakes target.. my point exactly.. fine shooting no doubut.. and an above average example of an AR.. but .. and here is the BUT..

1 not all groups are under a half... that right there is out .. even at 5x5.. but further

2 you dont get to take the size of 5 individual groups and average them.. those groups are measurably apart from the POA

if you look at bigjakes target.. if you were to overlay those 25 rounds into a single group using RSI etc.. you would see an aggreggated group that measured closer to .8 MOA eyballing it from the picture the extreme spread is not the same as the average of the average...

anyway.. I am not here to pick a fight.. if 1/10th the people on these boards that claim to shoot the groups they do ever showed up at maches I and others would never win a match... but the reality is that what people think thier rifle is capable of .. or in general .. believe what they read on the internet that rifles in general are capable of.. well .. its a far cry from reality in actual match or combat conditions.. when shooting strings of fire... so the extreme spread across all rounds fired is the actual capability of the weapon system... not the average of the group average.

out I'am done.

 

[supercorndogs]

When I built an Upper (to see if I could...), I used Loctite Red to seat the barrel. Since then, I have realized it was very likely overkill, but it would seem to me to address the potential issue of heat causing the barrel to become loose. The intended application for the Upper could be best described as 'Run-n-Gun), so it is the most likely of my rifles to operate at higher temperature levels. I think that the overkill may not be such an issue with it.

A larger sequence of foulers being required might be a cold, clean bore issue. I use to be pretty religious about cleaning after every outing, but have since throttled back on that somewhat. Powder kernel coatings seem (to me, anyway,...) to become dry lube in the bore after firing since many (nearly all the traditional powders) use graphite as the kernel coating. Cleaning removes the accumulation, necessitating the firing of foulers to reseason the bore.

If this clean, cold bore condition is not the norm, then the issue my be related to barrel heating; in which case, i would try redeveloping the load with the ladder testing oriented toward starting with a heated barrel. The conditioning/fouler load should use the same bullets and powder as the load being developed.

If the issue does not resolve through any of these strategies, I would revisit the cold shooter angle.

Greg

I am not sure a barrel could get loose because the of expansion. When the upper receiver is heating up and expanding, would the face of the receiver not pinch the barrel extension shoulder tighter against the barrel nut. Thinking on that makes me wonder about the squareness of the front of my receivers.

 

[RTH1800]

Squib,

You continue to attempt to set your guidelines for accuracy on others then criticize them for not meeting your definition of 1/2 minute accuracy.

Nowhere in the thread did anyone other than you mention 30 shot groups, match shooting or combat? No one in thier right mind wants a .5 moa AR for combat. Most of us don’t fight people that small anyway.

Each of us has a different goal for our rifles. And judge them by different standards. If I can go out and fire one 5 shot group and it is SUB 1/2 moa on several consecutive occasions I consider that a sub 1/2 MOA rifle. If not I don’t. If I get a gust of wind that moves a bullet 1/2 moa out of the group I don’t consider that the rifle is less accurate.

Personally no rifle is accurate to me that does not properly place a cold bore shot. The crow I’m shooting at at 400 meters has no interest in how the next four shots group. Far more important than ALL DAY LONG.

Personally, I never use the phrase “all day long.”
I never shoot all day. Nor would I care to. Excellent groups are shot under excellent conditions. No one questions that.

I do agree that if some on this thread came to matches you would never win.

 

[squib-load]

rth1800 you have your facts wrong.. sorry to say..

my original post critizes nobody only holds into question the ability for the AR platform to hold the original OPs request for a rifle that he can COUNT ON for half minute perfomance.. I then went on to what, yes, I feel is COUNT ON performance for a semi auto platform with 30 round magazines.. I dont care if its one shot at a time or 20.. but it has to be more than a grouping of 3-5 rounds.. otherwise you are just fooling yourself ... you need on demand single shot performance than you need to look at how that rifle does with 20 or more single shot cold shots.. unless you benchrest and want to clean after every round.. then its clean and cold single shot.. but benchrest groups last I checked are more than one shot and they clean between strings... rifle accuracy and precision is about repeatability... how you choose to shoot and test the repeatability depends on how you intend to shoot the rifle or pistol..

if you want single shot performance than a semi auto is not the platform you need... especially since manually chambered rounds group differently than the rest .. dont believe me.. go out and shoot 5, 10 whatever.. ouf of the mag at the same pace you will fire them single shot.. then single load and shoot the same number and compare your groups... hell go ahead and post them here if you take me up on it.. it will be easy to tell which is which

now when someone jumped down my throat .. claiming that 5x5 rounds is good enough.. just like I explained.. fine if 5 rounds floats your boat ... great .. but the target he referenced didnt meet the half MOA has was claiming even shot they way he wants it shot.... since there were several individal 5 round groups were larger than the .5 MOA goal.. and if all 25 were composited into a single group.... his rifle was in the .8 to .9 range... clearly ... making my point... that his .5 MOA rifle was, in fact, not really .5 MOA... but almost double that... 10 shot groups likely would have been larger still as themal becomes more of a player, velocities change, barrels walk.. etc.

hell my wife shot a .3 group once.. doenst mean that she or her rifle are a .3 MOA platform.. not even close..


accuracy.. if I point my rifle at it... will the shot be within .5 MOA of my POA 100% of the time... that is COUNT ON performance.. clearly his target does not demonstrate that accuracy or precision .. let alone repeatability ... period.. that is FACT. Now I didnt bring up that target, that shooter, or that rifle until that shooter questioned me and it was thrown in my face.. well sorry... but facts are facts measure it yourself..

as far as you claiming I am attempting for force my requirements on others... its patently false.. try re-reading my post to padom .. I could give a flying F what you or any other shooter decides to classify their rifle as .. dont care.. I dont buy marketing hype or rifle accuracy guarentees and could give a shit if you claim 'crazy tight' accuracy.. dont care.. I have never seen ANY rifle, shoot one load, match or otherwise.. handload (not changing the recipe) .5 all day from -20F to 130F and sea level to 5000ft.. never... if you have a rifle that can do that .. its a unicorn... that is why my dope books and those of others I shoot with are thick.. a rifle is living breathing thing.. if you think you can just fed it ammo and it hit what you shot at every time then why keep all these records..why load develop, hell why have competitions if every rifle can do it... its because you have too...

I DO care that people come here looking for sane advice and guidance, not BS and hype they will never achieve, and most (not all) of the info here is BS.... period... there are some great people and great shooters here.. and funny thing is that they are the ones getting dogged half the time.. which is hilarious yet very sad... brings to mind a thread where a guy was picking on Scott Satterlee ... Scott is a great shot and a nice guy.. and he made an ass of himself in the process

I shoot pistol, bolt, semi... I hunt, I shoot paper, and I shoot steel .. now... and was trained to shoot on the two way range.. and each rifle has a purpose and its accuracy in both construction and load development is to meet the goal that is trying to be accomplished..

I dont shoot 3 shot groups with my 6.5x284 hunting rifle.. I shoot lots of single shot cold bore shots (not cleaned.. just cold) and I make sure it shoots those all into a tight, repeatable overlayed group at the temperatures and altitudes I will be shooting at.. I take the group ATC to POI shift and zero off that... shot the way I am going to shoot in the field.. then dope it. and then I keep meticulous records for how many rounds that rifle will continue to do that until it needs a cleaning.. and then keep records on where the cold clean shot lands etc... that is how pro's hit the target... hollywood .. just pick up the gun and start shooting x rings only happens in the movies...

My competition guns are totally different... I shoot strings in the lengths that they have to perform at, and most times the most accurate groups for development groups are not the best band to shoot long strings, so I drop it down a node to get into a wider band and widen my ATC numbers so that my cold barrel perofmance is on par (or slightly larger) with hot barrel perfomace ... I usually prefer tigher groups as the barrel heats and loads speed up from the hot barrel since in most competitions the closer targets are engaged first..

any who.. people on these boards can do or say what they want... the op came to ask a question, I gave him my opinion, dont like it fine.. dont want to use it.. great.. but if you call me out on what I am saying you had better back it up... with fact

 

[Potss]

Padom and Bigjake are spot on. CLE Bartlein, Les Baer, JP, all great options. I'll just add that the Dracos barrel from Falkor should be right up there too.

 

[bigjake83]

rth1800

now when someone jumped down my throat .. claiming that 5x5 rounds is good enough.. just like I explained.. fine if 5 rounds floats your boat ... great .. but the target he referenced didnt meet the half MOA has was claiming even shot they way he wants it shot.... since there were several individal 5 round groups were larger than the .5 MOA goal.. and if all 25 were composited into a single group.... his rifle was in the .8 to .9 range... clearly ... making my point... that his .5 MOA rifle was, in fact, not really .5 MOA... but almost double that... 10 shot groups likely would have been larger still as themal becomes more of a player, velocities change, barrels walk.. etc.



any who.. people on these boards can do or say what they want... the op came to ask a question, I gave him my opinion, dont like it fine.. dont want to use it.. great.. but if you call me out on what I am saying you had better back it up... with fact

Holly Fuck.... This Guy is completely delusional, and in reference to my Target, it's a 6x5 not a 5x5 and all but one was .5 MOA or Less

And if you're so knowledgeable you should be able to tell by reading my Target that I started shooting at the bottom left and made elevation adjustments along the way to get all my groups contained and centered perfectly on the orange bullseyes, so your overlapping Theory making my Target a .8 MOA average is fruitless.. And if you were to actually cut out each individual Target overlapping them they would still be no larger than the largest group at .614 MOA, and since I made Scope adjustments during this 6x5.... I'm good with that.

Furthermore it is evident that your advice and statements are clearly unwanted here on Snipershide. Do us all a favour and go back to AR15.com with the rest of the fucking hacks.

 

[RTH1800]

Squib,

So much of what you say is irrelevant to the conversation, the rest is irrefutably, factually incorrect.

Please see your definition of 1/2 MOA above. If your bullet hits within 1/2 moa of your point of aim you have a one minute rifle. Not a 1/2 minute rifle. (It’s a simple concept involving radius vs diameter) Look it up.

Is that backed up with fact enough for you?

Your ridiculous temperature and elevation comparisons are simply childish banter. No more relevant than how your rifle shoots on the moon.

I really dont have time to point out all of your erroneous assumptions, irrelevant comments and factual errors this evening. Possibly tomorrow.

 

[J.Boyette]

Looking into getting an AR 15. From what I’ve been around them, Larue, Wilson Combat, Jp enterprises, gap seem to make the best ones as far as machining goes. I’d like to hear opinions from some people who have been around them enough to say that they would bet on “this certain brand” being a tack driver. I guess I’m a snob but 1 moa isn’t enough to justify the price in these higher end guns. I’ve seen rock rivers shoot 1 moa pretty often for 800 bucks. Thanks guys

I have 2 CLE 18" guns, Warsport, home builds with JP barrels.

All of them performance wise was worth the money.

But SGT of Arms out of Tx is blowing them away in precision and accuracy. Give Eric a Google search and you will see the lee does a great job

https://www.sgtofarms.com/

 

[squib-load]

we can all be so proud of smart water driking hero bigassjake and his half all day long rifle... I will sleep so much better knowing you are keeping the sheep warm in idaho...

 

[Tonsofguns]

Don’t sweat it, big jack ass is an internet bully. Say the slightest thing be doesint agree with, and he goes off.
He spends his time bragging or cursing someone out, indicative behavior of an ego maniac.

QUOTE=squib-load;n6799344]we can all be so proud of smart water driking hero bigassjake and his half all day long rifle... I will sleep so much better knowing you are keeping the sheep warm in idaho...

[/QUOTE]

 

[squib-load]

rth1800 well for you soccer moms that shoot off carpeted benches yeah.. I guess knowing what the rifle will do from cold to hot and sea level up is irrelevent.. because you dont understand it likely even more the reason... but it was a typical winter in AStan.. helo up into a mountain pass ass deep in snow at night.. work on the tan back at base in the valley working on the tan during the day...

and we didnt get to work up loads for each condition.. just the same brown box assembly line ammo and you have to konw what it, you and your rifle could do with it...

some of you have some serious mental health issues and likely should not have a firearm period.. next time you guys go to starbucks.. order decaf.....

 

[Early Cuyler]

squib-load As far as accuracy here at Snipers Hide goes, there has been debate over the years but most don't count a group until a minimum of 5rds are fired. Don't care what mil does, don't care what gunsmith X, competitor Y, or Sniper Z do. Then a few years back it became "well, those groups were cherry picked- what can your rifle do consistently?" So Elfster started a couple of threads (can't remember if it was prior to the Scout move or not) letting people post 6x5 targets measuring groups CTC. This became the defacto way to measure the accuracy of the rifle/shooter combo (since no one, to my knowledge, was shooting in a vise in an underground tunnel).

Elfter's threads were in semi and bolt action forums and VERY few people ever posted all 6 groups sub-0.5moa CTC in either thread (myself excluded). While BigJakes 6x5 target may not be all sub-1/2moa, its pretty damn close and impressive to say the least (also maybe I missed it but I don't see where he claimed its a 1/2moa all day rifle).

If you disagree with the way most of us grade accuracy of our platforms (ATC v CTC or 30rds vs 5x5, for example), feel free to start another thread on the faults/merits of each way. However current climate here uses 6x5 measured CTC as a representative sample of accuracy and when people ask about accuracy of a current rifle, an upcoming build, etc. it will be answered by people most likely with the 6x5 CTC method in mind.

elfster1234 bigjake83 rth1800 Feel free to correct anything above as my memory may not be just right.

Edited to correct 5x5 to 6x5 targets

 

[bigjake83]

squib-load As far as accuracy here at Snipers Hide goes, there has been debate over the years but most don't count a group until a minimum of 5rds are fired. Don't care what mil does, don't care what gunsmith X, competitor Y, or Sniper Z do. Then a few years back it became "well, those groups were cherry picked- what can your rifle do consistently?" So Elfster started a couple of threads (can't remember if it was prior to the Scout move or not) letting people post 5x5 targets measuring groups CTC. This became the defacto way to measure the accuracy of the rifle/shooter combo (since no one, to my knowledge, was shooting in a vise in an underground tunnel).

Elfter's threads were in semi and bolt action forums and VERY few people ever posted all 5 groups sub-0.5moa CTC in either thread (myself excluded). While BigJakes 6x5 target may not be all sub-1/2moa, its pretty damn close and impressive to say the least (also maybe I missed it but I don't see where he claimed its a 1/2moa all day rifle).

If you disagree with the way most of us grade accuracy of our platforms (ATC v CTC or 30rds vs 5x5, for example), feel free to start another thread on the faults/merits of each way. However current climate here uses 5x5 measured CTC as a representative sample of accuracy and when people ask about accuracy of a current rifle, an upcoming build, etc. it will be answered by people most likely with the 5x5 CTC method in mind.

elfster1234 bigjake83 rth1800 Feel free to correct anything above as my memory may not be just right.

Well said... Yes a lot of us have worked year after year, competing in local and regional matches and the new AR15 F-class series, taking our knowledge from practical shooting environment and implementing what we need to get the best results out of our rifles. Everything we post here is for the public to gain from what we have found to work. Here on the Hide the 6x5 designed by Elfster is the standard...period!!

It is clearly evident we have had a surge of new members this year in 2017 that have brought nothing to the Hide but discontent and animosity. Basically if you can't bring anything to the table shut your mouth or get the fuck out of Snipers Hide.

 

[supercorndogs]

rth1800 well for you soccer moms that shoot off carpeted benches yeah.. I guess knowing what the rifle will do from cold to hot and sea level up is irrelevent.. because you dont understand it likely even more the reason... but it was a typical winter in AStan.. helo up into a mountain pass ass deep in snow at night.. work on the tan back at base in the valley working on the tan during the day...

and we didnt get to work up loads for each condition.. just the same brown box assembly line ammo and you have to konw what it, you and your rifle could do with it...

some of you have some serious mental health issues and likely should not have a firearm period.. next time you guys go to starbucks.. order decaf.....

Damn the only good thing you said in this thread, "out I am done"; and it was bull shit like everything else you said.

Why don't you go ahead and show us a video of you shooting 3 ten round groups.

 

[RTH1800]

Squib,

I very seldom shoot from a bench. Never seen one with carpet. Another erroneous assumption. If you would shut up and read you would have seen that I only mentioned shooting from prone with a sling or bipod. My private 800 meter range does not even have a bench, just shooting berms and impact berms. Nor does the spot I do my 1000 meter shooting on another farm I own. I am surprised to hear that you were wasting tax dollars in A stan shooting groups from AR's. I have huge amounts of environmental data going back to before you were born. The charts I carry for each rifle have data from 0 F to 100 F I have shot from sea level to 17000 feet above. All of my charts are built from empirical data, not computer generated. This is all old, commonly known information much of which goes back to pre WW1. My shooting experience includes hunting, shooting, competing on 5 continents and 6 if you include AU/NZ.

All of which is irrelevant. It is not the subject we are discussing.

I normally do not get involved in these debates with intellectually challenged folks but made an exception for you on the basis that at times stupid should hurt.

I really like the comment about your lie that you were done but continue to spew stupidity on this thread.

If you would go back and read the thread, disregarding the bullshit you wrote you will possibly learn something. Most of us here learn all the time from each other. Only the fools who know it all fail to come away with a net gain of shooting knowledge.

 

[RTH1800]

Squib,

As a stand alone question, are you standing by your bullshit statement about a 1/2 MOA rifle hitting within 1/2 MOA of POA? Please provide us some RELEVANT FACTS to show our mistaken ways, not some off topic story about being ass deep in snow.

 

[steve123]

I was just wondering how accurate an AR could be, set it up as a benchrest rifle with a 3" wide sled and custom rear stock fitted to a quality rear bag, or off one of those fancy one piece rests??? Maybe even try some boutique benchrest bullets. More so removing the shooter from the equation as much as possible to test the rifle's true accuracy potential.

 

[supercorndogs]

I was just wondering how accurate an AR could be, set it up as a benchrest rifle with a 3" wide sled and custom rear stock fitted to a quality rear bag, or off one of those fancy one piece rests??? Maybe even try some boutique benchrest bullets. More so removing the shooter from the equation as much as possible to test the rifle's true accuracy potential.

I have wondered the same. I have always thought half is about as good as it got. Maybe just because I have never been able to shoot one, or possibly never owned one capable of printing a half MOA 5x5. I have shot single groups into the .2s with one, but I have seen my 7.62x39 upper put three rounds of WPA steel case through the same hole too. When I got home that day the scope was about to fall off it. LOL. It would be a cool experiment.

 

[steve123]

Ha, I had a similar thing happen with a DPMS 308 at 1000Y, I wasn't disappointed with how well the shooting went, then got home and discovered the loose mount.

I would have liked to try what I mentioned with the 6mmART40 upper. Off bipod I shot a 10 shot group with 8 of them into .3" all making a nice round hole, but the other two opened up the group to .8". I know it was me.

 

[RTH1800]

I'm seeing an AR rail gun in someone's future. .

Not my area but would love to see the result and possibly learn some things to move back to my varmint rifle.

RTH

 

[padom]

Shooting 10rd groups brings too much of the shooter into play and takes seeing the rifles capability out of it which defeats the entire purpose. This is why we shoot 5x5 or 6x5 or 7x5 because the shooter can more easily repeat their actions, trigger, pull, grip, etc. for 5 shots then take a brake and then shoot the next 5 shot group. When testing barrels, rifles, uppers, etc. I dont give a shit what the shooter is capable of (for barrel/rifle testing purposes), I want to know what that barrel/upper is capable of. A 10 shot group will not show you that most of the time.

And for those that think shooting 5x5 or 6x5 is "EASIER" than shooting 10x3 or whatever other crazy shit people are coming up with today than go shoot one and post up your results. Put your money where your mouth is. Talking means shit. There are only a few of use I have seen that can shoot the .5moa mark in a 5x5 or 6x5. Shit Ive done it on a 7x5. A lot harder than you think.

 

[squib-load]

here is my original post and I stand behind it... period.. its MY opinion.. MY standards of what judges and or determines AR accuracy and repeatability and if you dont like it... go smoke it.. I give a shit what you internet commandos use for your standards and never included it or disputed it in my original post... and even further commented in follow on posts that if you want to shoot 3 round groups 5 round whatever.. but you cant take the average of your groups .. you have to overly them and go edge to edge.. and as always.. oh the wind took it... oh I changed my scope settings while firing for groups bullshit excuses always come out.. pro tip.. dont make scope adjustments when firing record groups..

yeah.. for me.. any AR that gives ME .5 minute from POA is all I ask because that in the reality that I have SEEN, WITNESSED, and/or am CAPAPABLE of and no.. that does not make it a .5 minute gun.. its a ~ .5 MOA ATC with a 1 MOA extreme spread.. and when I have a rifle and load that will do that I am satisfied becuase in MY OPINION I have yet to see a AR rifle hold under that in my definition of ALL DAY LONG. because that is MY definition of 'COUNT ON' which is what the OP was asking about.


and to make all the whiny bitches here happy, I will post no further comments here so you can go back into deluding yourselves in how great you think you are and in the case of MFGs here masquerading as just memebers... bilking money out of the ignorant and uniformed... you can continue to push your wares...

and for those of you out here building ARs for you friends, famility and clients that I keep reading about in this thread.. you better have your Class II FFL in order less the man come visit your little garage operation of precision AR rifles for soccer moms...


before all the bitching and whining and foul mouthed rants by the mentally unstable HERE IS THE ORIGNINAL POST before it devolved


so... realistically, can an AR platform do .5MOA.. yep... but very likely not all day long. not if you are talking ES measurement that the internet likes. Now if you are talking ATC or some other measurement that allows for statistical flyers they yes.. .5 all day long might be more achievable

many good and even average mfg can make the AR platform that will turn in the occaisional 3 or even 5 round group that will be sub .5MOA but I have yet to see one in my lifetime turn in a 10 round group under .5 let alone multiple 10 round groups overlayed for a 30 round composit.. never seen it.. maybe Molon has .. as that man is an AR god.. but I have never seen him shoot a 30 round composit that is .5 either come to think of it.

different animal but when the military was looking at the M110 trials the initial requiremnt for for a 1MOA max.. they had to relax that to 1.5 and these where hand built test guns from top tier defense contractors like remington and Knights competing and they all asked for the requirement to be relaxed.. why.. becuase the govt doesnt cherry pick groups.. those guns that go through testing at aberdeen prooving grounds for contracts have to meet the milspec ALL DAY LONG.. shoot one group outside the maximum specified and you are out.


here is another dirty secret of the AR platform.. any rounds chambered from a bolt open condition like a mag change or a malf clearing will almost always shoot out of the group becase the bolt lockup is far more violent from a recoil rebound than from the bolt release. moreover.. depending on the hand lapping of the bolt to extension interface.. many when single loaded will group far worse than a string fired from the magzine... when firing in a match or for groups where its allowed a shooter will throw that first shot into the ground and not the target.

conversly .. especially in the ar-10 .. if you loads dont have LOTS of neck tension.. the round will grow measureably when chambered.. I have seen rounds chambered than ejected that would no longer fit the magazine having set the bullet forward enough to see with the naked eye. this is exacerbated in rounds that chamber from recoil and not bolt release.

in sum.. the AR platform can attain resonable accuracy but if you were trying to build one that would never throw a round outside .5 .. I would say its a fools errand at any cost... hence the reason we still have bolt guns and when a shot has to mater, when a hostages head and a perps head are within inches of one another, nobody is taking that shot with a semi..



piss off all of you.. you are the people I dread coming across at matches... most are great guys to hang around but the comes the fouth mouth jackass in a jersey...

 

[THEIS]

I was just wondering how accurate an AR could be, set it up as a benchrest rifle with a 3" wide sled and custom rear stock fitted to a quality rear bag, or off one of those fancy one piece rests??? Maybe even try some boutique benchrest bullets. More so removing the shooter from the equation as much as possible to test the rifle's true accuracy potential.

Hi,

You meaning like one of these lol?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aywl_IwOaII&feature=youtu.be

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[steve123]

Hi,

You meaning like one of these lol?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aywl_IwOaII&feature=youtu.be

Sincerely,
THEIS

Yeah, but with one of his jigs that doesn't clamp directly to the barrel.

 

[bigjake83]

Hi,

You meaning like one of these lol?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aywl_IwOaII&feature=youtu.be

Sincerely,
THEIS

This has PADOM names all over it.

 

[bigjake83]

here is my original

And to make all the whiny bitches here happy, I will post no further comments here so you can go back into deluding yourselves in how great you think you are and in the case of MFGs here masquerading as just memebers... bilking money out of the ignorant and uniformed... you can continue to push your wares...

Piss off all of you.. you are the people I dread coming across at matches... most are great guys to hang around but the comes the fouth mouth jackass in a jersey...

​​​​

 

[padom]

This has PADOM names all over it.

Taking donations....lolol

 

[Ankeny]

Good grief, the guy was "

out I'am done." clear back on post 54, but he continued the pissing match. That alone should speak for itself.

For anyone following the thread that is truly interested in AR accuracy potential, the AR can be made into the proverbial tack driver. I am a bolt gun guy, but I do tinker with the AR platform. When I first got into AR 15 rifles I did a ton of research about their accuracy, based on results from the old school precision shooting sports (left PRS out). AR's can be so amazingly accurate that world class, record setting shooters, are getting amazing results. Hard to argue with the guys in the "winner's circle".​

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Yeah I mean I can appreciate Molon's comparisons but an "AR god"..?? I don't think so. LOL

 

[elfster1234]

LOL, the very old 6x5 threads on the original snipershide back in 2012 (1st & 2nd round no longer exists anymore and I'm rather sure they are gone forever due to hackers and transfer of the information over the years)..... anyway, round 3 still kinda exists but most of the pics are gone in the thread. There was many more rounds after this and I'm still running them on facebook now. Here is the link: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...round-shootout

Anyway,,,,,, my love for precision rifles started out with AR's (after my dad gave me a SKS at age 14 and an arsenal milled AK in the early 2000's when you could get them for $450 ish dollars!)... Got my first (all i could afford at the time) DPMS LR-308 bull barrel (my days before I even knew how to reload and was running on pure factory gas) years ago. I quickly found myself hooked and looking for more and more ways of how to improve my AR's accuracy. No matter what I did, I could never reach this "I shoot .5moa all day long" that everyone talked about on the forums. I eventually found my way onto the hide years ago and would keep reading these posts of people and their ".5moa all day long" rifles. Doing the same as the original OP and as many people still do today... I asked the question, "what AR should I get that is more accurate!?". I ended up selling the DPMS and dropped $2500 on an LMT.

Once I got the LMT MWS in .308, and a couple rock rivers in .223, I started to reload. My groups improved, but still I would get this once in a blue moon .5ish group, but never consistenly. My groups improved as my skills in reloading improved, but still I was never satisfied. Group after group after group, and a year went by shooting my AR's I started to come to the conclusion that I didn't discount the possibility of owning, shooting, and reloading ".5moa all day long", but most if not all people that posted "I shoot .5moa all day long" were simply full of shit and were posting nothing but cherry picked groups.

Being an estimator by trade, I came to the conclusion that "why don't you put your money where your mouth is" and shoot 6 total, 5shot groups, on one single target and we will take the average of the 6 groups... We will keep it at 100yards in order to minimize wind and mirage.... then I will be satisfied that you are actually able to shoot ".5moa all day long"... that's when I started the 6x5 shootout challenge on the HIDE. It was a combination of the rifle, shooter, and eventually I got it through my thick skull the importance of reloading. All 3 are important (rifle, shooter, and reloading). Hell, in the original 6x5 threads you didn't even need to hit the damn bullseye, it was just a game to show off how accurate YOU and YOUR RIFLE was (now the new 6x5 thread on facebook has a bullseye bonus that improves your score).. It really was like drag racing your stock car, but for rifles.

It didn't take many rounds once I started the 6x5 challenge to realize .223 AR's were blowing .308 AR's out of the water in terms of accuracy. My conclusion was.. Driving a large caliber AR is much much more difficult in comparison to a small caliber AR (.308 vs .223). Time and time again, the .223 AR's would blow the .308 AR's out of the water at 100yards.. Recoil impulse, recoil impulse. Recoil management is a bitch. I can't tell you how many bolt action boys that switched over to AR's though they were going crazy when their bolts produced .5moa groups, while their new AR rifle couldn't print anything under 1.5moa... That big ass bolt carrier group, gas, blah blah blah can be a bastard. I ended up keeping bolt actions on their own boards, while having AR's on their very own boards. Don't under estimate the power of a bolt action's sealed chamber when taking shots. If you think your AR should be as accurate as your bolt rifle = you're kidding yourself.

I've literally seen HUNDREDS if not over a thousand 6x5's over the years from damn near every single rifle known to man, from the most inexpensive to the most expensive, from people around the globe, and with that said. Is it possible to own a .5moa all day long AR, that CONSISTENELY produces dime size groups at 100yards every single time you pull the trigger? It is a very complex answer, and the answer isn't based completely within the rifle itself.... is it possible consistently? yes!,,, but I've only seen maybe 15 people out of the 1000's of 6x5 actually do this with an AR CONSISTENTELY.. It's a serious combination of not only the quality of the rifle, but also that of the shooter's skill, and reloading skill..... 33%, 33%, 33%... Just because you have a rifle that has the potential to produce .5moa groups all day long, doesn't mean your bolt action skills can drive an AR, and especially if you're feeding your AR crap factory ammo.. I've seen it time and time again, good reloading load development turn a 1.5moa rifle into a .5moa rifle simply based on bullet selection, powder drops, and bullet jumps blah blah blah blah.... if you don't believe me, then you're more than welcome to check out my ruger precision rifle adventure on my youtube channel.

I can only think of maybe 5 people ive seen over the years that completely blow my mind away every single time they pull the trigger.. The one that stands out the most would be James Phillips (and at one time a 600 yard bench rest rifle world record holder)... that man, no crap, takes shooting rifles and reloading to a whole different level and I would HIGHLY advise anyone here to check out his 6x5 targets and all the information posted on my facebook closed group "elfers' 100 & 300, 6groups, 5shots each, 1 target"... it would blow your mind away. James' 300yard 6x5's straight up blow most if not all at 100yards. It's nuts.

Now do all of the above while keeping every single group on the bullseye, that’s a whole different ball of wax... Any jack ass can shoot a 5 shot group... and then carry that off to distance... 500, 1000, 1500 yards plus. Your 100yard load development doesn’t work for shit at 1000yards because you don’t chronograph, and can’t read mirage and wind for shit type crap, Everything you thought you know starting out goes right out the window.

IT IS NOT JUST THE RIFLE! You and your reloads are just as important. Now go to bed! LOL... Elfster out

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

elfster1234 no doubt Mr James is awesome.
Also FWIW, Ive heard Bill Wiseman is a REAL piece of work.

And Im pretty sure Crane and other official military groups use Young-built rails modified so you can bolt a AR upper onto it for their accuracy testing... I can dig up some pics if anyones actually interested. MilGunsmith posts over at benchrest central and has put pictures up of the rails they use to accuracy test AR's and snipers, cant remember what branch hes with but Im pretty sure its some SOCOM outfit. And Im 99.99% certain he was using modded Young rails(same ones used by Unlimited class BR competitors but altered obviously)..

 

[THEIS]

elfster1234
Also FWIW, Ive heard Bill Wiseman is a REAL piece of work.

Hi,

You win the internet for the under statement of the year lol.
Bill himself is and can be hard to deal with but his products are used by some of the best T&E, Ammunition, Ballistic and Armor companies in the world.

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Forrest84]

I’ve seen a couple mk12 clones with WOA barrels do .5 with factory match. My KAC LPR gen 1 does it easy with magtech Ammo. JP would be a definant thumbs up. Never seen a LesBear so I couldn’t say or a larue in 223.

 

[padom]

For those looking at Compass Lake Engineering Bartleins, here's a test target I shot today based off a load Frank recommended to me. He sent me a 3/8" 3 shot test target with my barrel based off this load. He told me to try out the Sierra 60gr HP FB bullets with RE15 for accuracy. I got around to trying them out today with an OCW test. They are super accurate with excellent SD's...

100yds shot over the LabRadar
20" CLE Bartlein 1-7.7
Sierra 60gr HP FB Varmageddon
RE 15 OCW
2xLC
205M
1.885" Base to Ogive
Shot with Rugged Surge 7.62 Suppressor


[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/eXtSQF7.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 

[tuckybill]

Those Sierra's 60 gr HP will give Bambi a bad hair day too.............. Love the SD at around the 25gr mark!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Reading Padom and Elfster, I get the same message my own precision AR's are telling me. Rifle, ammo, shooter; in essence pretty much the same as any other type of rifle. Until the BCG starts to move, it is pretty much any other rifle. As my eldest Brother told me decades ago, all those bolt engagements, arranged mostly symmetrical, should provide better action performance than a 2-lug bolt action. I'm with that until the BCG starts its mayhem. I would also consider that the lockup process has some bearing on this considering all the threads on first round flyers, but I really think that's a matter of where the gas port is located down the barrel, the farther down the better, IMHO.

OK, back to rifle, ammo, shooter. Rifle; I'm trying to do my work with an unaltered factory varmint AR, so it is what it is. Honestly, I figure I'm just following basic scientific method by eliminating rifle variables from the experiment. Ammo; I am varying only the bullet and powder charge, all other factors are not allowed to vary, and my own philosophy about reducing the ammo making process down to F/L resize and reprime, weigh each charge, seat the bullet to mag feed length, no more, no less, is right in there regarding limiting the variable. So can such an approach deliver the performance at the top if this topic? That still remains to be seen. I'm committed to finding out.

And that leaves the shooter.

Well, we sure don't have a perfect specimen there. 71 years old, 'nuff said about that. Eyesight as of Tuesday last, 20/80, corrected; new prescription due in the mail (VA) the beginning of Feb. It was correctable to 20/20 in the Doc's office; we'll see how that translates into eyeglasses. I'm not really rattled about this, and I think my shooter issues are moderately impacted, but that I can still manage good enough accuracy at the current time with serious concentration. It's just a bit of a chore. Physically, lungs and heart could be better, but are not an issue for shooting off the bench. My right shoulder has a chronically recurring pain and mobility issue dating back to a serious skiing accident back,in the 1970's, and it's honestly got me pretty crippled up right now. But it's healing slowly once again, and barring any stupid re-injuries, is not really a factor with Varmint AR's that are probably somewhere in the12+ lb range with the optics mounted. So The Kid's not perfect at the moment, but it's all just annoying, and not prohibiting. Honestly, I see other guys at the range that make me look like Superman, and they can do it, so I ought to be able to as well.

My support method has been the real issue. The bipod is not my friend. It keeps getting loose, and I've relegated it to the gear bag, and am shooting off the Caldwell Rock, with a Caldwell Rear Bag. The forward stop is also being eliminated, because it doesn't interact well with the gas block. I figure those two issues have been my most significant impediment of late.

So current status, the process of elimination has me in a place I think I can live with. I think I have a 50gr Nosler BT load I can trust to a load confirmation session. I don't have a 75gr HDY HPBT-Match load, but I do have 20 rounds each of six likeliest powder charge range test loads ready. That leaves the weather. My range is 50 miles South from home, and is prone to higher winds. But mornings can be acceptable. Those mornings start out around freezing, warming up to the forties during the drive down; not ideal but sustainable.

With the colder weather and the Holidays looming, shooting sessions have a very low priority. But it will happen, only question is how soon. No answer there, yet; worst case, I may already be on Winter stand down.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Oh, and the Win 64gr Power Point load that looked good didn't pan out in the load confirmation testing. It's not far off, yet I really need to start over. However, I just found 300 Sierra 65gr Spitzer BT's in the back of the 224 bullet drawer, and I think I'm going to do that start-over with them instead. Deer with a 223 may be a stretch, but this could turn out be as close as I can get. The Varmint AR is no deer hunting rifle, so I'll be loading and testing with my 16" Uppers on this one, and maybe the Mossberg MVP Predator (18.5"), too.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The new VA eyeglasses are here, they got finished early (I'll say...), and they appear to have my vision back in the ball park again. Ammo is ready, and my shooting partner is talking about getting back to the range on a weekly basis starting next week or the one after. We'll see.

 

[Belisarius]

this one can easily do half moa, but it is pricey.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Got out yesterday (Tue 1/2/18), beautiful day (Sun, blue sky, low 70's, wind 5mph and under) down on the Border, shot a (one and only) 5 x 5 avg .5992" at 100yd for the Nos 50gr BT (26.6gr Varget) load out of the Stag 6 kit with a smallest of .424". I'm happy with this load, further improvement will have to come from improved marksmanship.

Next up for the Stag 6 kit with this load will be the SH 100yd challenge.

I am also having some trouble getting small groups with the 75gr HDY HPBT-Match at 100yd, running .7"-.9", will see if shooting at 200yd has any effect next time out, still testing loads, the 24.2gr Varget load was best so far with a .773" at 100yd. 23.4gr and 23.8gr are also looking tempting, I'll need to shoot more of those increments.

Still a work in progress, still getting technique down, currently shooting off the Caldwell Rock, each groups is a little smaller as I get the hang of it. I strongly believe some 1/2moa 5 x 5 aggs will happen. The gun will do it, the ammo is coming along, and I'm the part that needs the most work.

Greg

 

[diderr]

It’s probably luck of the draw but my $900 Stag with a chromelined barrel is a consistent 1/2 moa or less gun. Probably better but the monkey behind the trigger is a limiting factor. Was chopped to 14.5 and warcomp pinned by adco. More accurate than my MK12 clone with a CLE Douglas and a matched bolt

 

[TACC]

Holy thread resurrection batman, did you at least shake the dust off this?

 

[502Chevelle]

Wtf is everyone doing answering threads that are 5 years old? Oh wait, I just did it too.

 

[Dollman]

Never was able to get an AR type rifle to shoot 1/2 MOA consistently. Maybe 1 to 1-1/2 MOA at best. Probably just me. However, I can shoot my bolt guns fairly constantly @ 1/4 MOA or better in prone position. If not, I can usually call the shot before it gets on target and it's always my fault as the operator.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

It’s probably luck of the draw but my $900 Stag with a chromelined barrel is a consistent 1/2 moa or less gun. Probably better but the monkey behind the trigger is a limiting factor. Was chopped to 14.5 and warcomp pinned by adco. More accurate than my MK12 clone with a CLE Douglas and a matched bolt

Revived a 4.5 year dead thread to claim a chrome lined barrel that's been chopped is a .5MOA gun with a LPVO at that and supported it with a picture of a single 3 shot group LOL.

 

[hlee]

The ‘similar threads’ feature is a curse.

 

[bill_van]

No more relevant than how your rifle shoots on the moon.

All my rifles and pistols shoot .5 moa or less on the moon! Even my shotguns are .5 moa or less!