Rifle Scopes Are Tier 1 scopes even worth it ?

[JeffLebowski]

Magargal, that's usually what happens if you go to Turners in Kearny Mesa If you haven't already, go see John at Precision Arms at 250 W Crest St C, in Escondido. He's in the upper right corner in the little strip mall. If he doesn't have the scope you're looking for or the scope you want, give him a week and he'll have what you want waiting for you. He scored me a bitchin' deal on a Schmidt and Bender PMII. Great guy to work with!

I can’t believe that place is still there.

 

[patriot07]

Anything past $1000, you're paying double the price for 10% more performance. Heard Ilya say something similar once and my experience holds true to that. $1000 scopes are legit twice as good as $500 scopes. But pretty much past the SWFA/Cronus/PST2/LRHS level, you're just paying for performance that makes the scope easier and more pleasant to use, but doesn't really make much difference in hit vs miss (the one exception being the way better glass cuts through mirage, which allows you to use higher power and see targets easier).

JMHO

 

[Mxridr]

Shot f class next to guy using pst at 1k. I think I will keep my kahles. PST was dogshit. You keep believing

 

[patriot07]

Shot f class next to guy using pst at 1k. I think I will keep my kahles. PST was dogshit. You keep believing

Gen 1 or 2? Gen 1 was awful. Gen 2 is decent, but the scope you're talking about it is 2.5x to 3x the price. I'm not saying they're the same...I'm saying the difference isn't 2x-3x the performance.

JMHO - you're welcome to spend whatever you like. Kahles is a nice scope. So is the PST2

 

[Mxridr]

Believe me I wish I could spend 1k for a scope that is close to my kahles. The quality of glass is so important to read the mirage at that distance. The pst2 is garbage at that distance. I have looked thru several. Is the zco worth 3600? Damn right. Don’t own one but I will.

 

[Mxridr]

Never met anyone smashing 10 and x with a pst 2

 

[Guthwine]

Anything past $1000, you're paying double the price for 10% more performance.

Anything past $1000, you're probably also paying for living wages and environmental regulations. Cheap also has a price but that is beside performance.

 

[Long Range 338]

Yes they are worth it. Now the individual has to decide which features in a scope are a necessity and which are not. If you decide all the features are necessary then you’ve arrived at which scopes provide those features and are priced accordingly....

 

[jarredsc]

Some are priced close to sphur mounts so rather consider sphur mounts

 

[yellowfin]

My answer to this is the same as with all other equipment in all categories of life: does the higher $ stuff actually solve a problem which YOU have encountered or will encounter that cannot be solved with what you have? Do YOU currently run what YOU have to the limits to where YOU can tell that what you're not able to get done is because of THAT specific aspect? If the answer to that is no, then don't put the money in anything until it is yes. Wait until you are where the reason that you cannot do X, Y, and Z is because YOU KNOW you cannot do it with what you have because you have applied it and it is the ONLY reason for failing to do so. That applies to optics, ammunition, barrels, entire guns, etc.

Basically when you get to that point you don't need to ask anyone. The answer presents itself.

 

[StLPro2A]

Hello all this is my first post aside from using the Exchange. I have always been just a “reader only” of forums but I’ve been reading a lot about precision optics these days and it seems that technology has advanced so rapidly and precision of engineering has become way more available that it was 5 years ago.

My question is, Are these newest, baddest, most expensive, tier 1 optics really worth all the hype?

I see companies like Nightforce and Leupold producing scopes with an MSRP over $4,000!

I see on a lot of forums people complain about optical clarity of optics such as the XTR2 and I understand the importance but we’re not bird watchers. We don’t need to count the hairs, we’re simply putting lead on target and for a lot of us that’s a big dinner sized steel plate.

I suppose maybe I don’t understand because I run a limited budget and I’m not trying to justify buying such an optical masterpiece, but for range guys who run their guns out to no more than 1,300 yards on steel does all this matter? Is the NF BEAST really going to make the difference ? Or can I simply strap on a good old Gen 2 Viper and not have any major disadvantages?

Thanks Guys !

The higher one climbs in any technology the small incremental steps of improvement come at an exponentially faster growing price leap......glass, horsepower, speed, cornering, women... Stretch your envelope on the scope performance you need. Don't nibble on the low dollar side and end up doing a second or third bite to get what you need. That ends up wasting more, and being very frustrating. Save a little longer or sell an extra kid to get the performance....not necessarily just glass. When buying a scope, buy the glass that looks acceptable to your eye....very subjective......but spend like ya got it on repeatability, reliability, consistency. Those traits are the steel ringing, meat taking, money makers. You can't hit what you can't see, but even if you see it, you can't hit what you can't precisely dial the solution. There are a lot of "scope snobs" out there that spend money just to have something others can't reach. Talk to PRC match winners. Inquire what tracking factors they have to apply for their scopes. Those that run zero are using the best scopes.....and that's why they are winning. Buy there. I've had good performance with Leupold Mark 5HD scopes. I run the 7-35x56. Bought two recently at under $2100 delivered, and got a Leupold rebate Kestrel Hornady 4DOF with each one....$499MSRP. The 5-25x56 could get close to your budget with astute shopping, negotiating...free shipping, buy out of state to avoid sales tax, group multiple unit buy, etc.

 

[StLPro2A]

No offense to those with feels about their kids (lol who are we kidding, I dont care)

But my wife looked at me a few years back and was like 'we should have kids, everyone else does'. After I spit my drink out I looked at her and asked, yeah, but have you seen their lives after? LOLOLOLOLOL

I don't know, I just haven't woken up in the morning yet and thought 'shit, I need some constant noise and nonstop fucking destruction in my life'.

That silence at the end of life when one is dying alone is really deafening. The kid noise and destruction go away reasonably quickly. Kinda the entry cost to being a family. If you break those kids in right and set the right role model, you won't find a greater, more satisfying Return On Investment in your life. Especially when the roles reverse with aging. You'll wish you had some one that appreciates what you "went through/gave up"....really not much in real terms. Things you amass in place of kids won't put warm fuzzies in your heart, give you memories to relish when you can't do anything else, give you grandkids (even better than the original kids) wipe your drool, steady your gait, help you bathe and dress, provide a comforting hug, deal with whatever you will eventually die of. Not having kids, and being a great parent, is the biggest missed reward in life. But, then, if one doesn't understand that, it's best that one doesn't have kids, and don't pass on their genes. That's what we are reaping in big city minority communities today. No Father; all Baby Daddy. I recall fondly the "noise and destruction" in raising a young man who became a Navy doctor and saved the lives and limbs of brave young Marines fighting for our country. Kinda my legacy. What will be yours? An empty dirty glass? YMMV

 

[steve123]

Ha, I had a dream last night that I had a Kowa Prominar with turrets and a H59 reticle, not kidding either Everything looked like a laser lithograph!

I guess I need to see a scope psychiatrist.

 

[Jb75]

Had a tier 1 scope that i sold. It cost just below 4K. In my opinion the 1,5-2K extra over a tier2 or whatever isnt worth it. Im not poor but tier 1 is just a bad financial decision.

 

[rancher5]

All depends where your at in life, Love looking through a Kahles 5-25ie,

 

[1moaoff]

Glass was better in that but eye box was tough

 

[Jefe's Dope]

That silence at the end of life when one is dying alone is really deafening. The kid noise and destruction go away reasonably quickly. Kinda the entry cost to being a family. If you break those kids in right and set the right role model, you won't find a greater, more satisfying Return On Investment in your life. Especially when the roles reverse with aging. You'll wish you had some one that appreciates what you "went through/gave up"....really not much in real terms. Things you amass in place of kids won't put warm fuzzies in your heart, give you memories to relish when you can't do anything else, give you grandkids (even better than the original kids) wipe your drool, steady your gait, help you bathe and dress, provide a comforting hug, deal with whatever you will eventually die of. Not having kids, and being a great parent, is the biggest missed reward in life. But, then, if one doesn't understand that, it's best that one doesn't have kids, and don't pass on their genes. That's what we are reaping in big city minority communities today. No Father; all Baby Daddy. I recall fondly the "noise and destruction" in raising a young man who became a Navy doctor and saved the lives and limbs of brave young Marines fighting for our country. Kinda my legacy. What will be yours? An empty dirty glass? YMMV

What I'd give to have the noisy children again. I guess I wait until mine get the noise and I get to reap the rewards.

 

[cdeiglmeier]

Had a tier 1 scope that i sold. It cost just below 4K. In my opinion the 1,5-2K extra over a tier2 or whatever isnt worth it. Im not poor but tier 1 is just a bad financial decision.

Tier 1 is only a bad financial decision if you really shouldn't/can't afford one. Just like buying a sports car/supercar etc... It's a bad financial decision if you really just scraped everything you have together to buy one thinking it would be a good investment. Don't buy a scope (or sports car for that matter) expecting to make money later on or thinking it's a "good investment or financial decision". The best costs money and people are willing to pay for that.

 

[yellowfin]

That silence at the end of life when one is dying alone is really deafening. The kid noise and destruction go away reasonably quickly. Kinda the entry cost to being a family. If you break those kids in right and set the right role model, you won't find a greater, more satisfying Return On Investment in your life. Especially when the roles reverse with aging. You'll wish you had some one that appreciates what you "went through/gave up"....really not much in real terms. Things you amass in place of kids won't put warm fuzzies in your heart, give you memories to relish when you can't do anything else, give you grandkids (even better than the original kids) wipe your drool, steady your gait, help you bathe and dress, provide a comforting hug, deal with whatever you will eventually die of. Not having kids, and being a great parent, is the biggest missed reward in life. But, then, if one doesn't understand that, it's best that one doesn't have kids, and don't pass on their genes. That's what we are reaping in big city minority communities today. No Father; all Baby Daddy. I recall fondly the "noise and destruction" in raising a young man who became a Navy doctor and saved the lives and limbs of brave young Marines fighting for our country. Kinda my legacy. What will be yours? An empty dirty glass? YMMV

People keep saying that. Right now I'm in the middle of just coming out of "Oh f*** what did I do" stage, still in the noise and destruction and only getting tiny shreds of the payoff. But now at least my wife is starting to talk to me normally again OCCASIONALLY and he's just over 3 so he's cognizant of some stuff and wants me around when I'm not there but have to work (or, currently, do applications all day long to get new work)) but not to the point of concentrate and learn what I want to teach him. Some crap happened with the wife's family and they've weaseled their way into living with us--I hear it said all the time "There's no right time to have kids" but holy crap it's like saw off your right hand or your left hand. Theoretically would want to have another one or two to keep my little guy from being lonely through life but absolutely cannot go through the crap again of my wife being super paranoid and Jeckyll/Hyde, the losing sleep thing, everything endlessly is dangerous somehow, learn about 300 new possible diseases and disorders possible for your kid to have at birth, before, or anytime in life, 527 extra steps/procedures to your day, etc.

Can we just get back to man does work and occasionally fights wars, comes home at dark and son(s) worship the ground he walks on but occasionally need a spank or two, then go fishing? Seriously, the teach him everything you know, read Moby Dick and Treasure Island, work on everything together, make him your apprentice model worked for 8000 years. This Mr. Co-Mom shit is for the birds.

Anyway, back to the topic of optics to make this post related, my budget right now is split between optics for his .22's and a 5.56 and 6.8 SPC I built him, stuff for the Mrs. when she gets back to normal, and me. So $2K-$4K needs to go to 3 people instead of just me.

 

[roamin]

That silence at the end of life when one is dying alone is really deafening. The kid noise and destruction go away reasonably quickly. Kinda the entry cost to being a family. If you break those kids in right and set the right role model, you won't find a greater, more satisfying Return On Investment in your life. Especially when the roles reverse with aging. You'll wish you had some one that appreciates what you "went through/gave up"....really not much in real terms. Things you amass in place of kids won't put warm fuzzies in your heart, give you memories to relish when you can't do anything else, give you grandkids (even better than the original kids) wipe your drool, steady your gait, help you bathe and dress, provide a comforting hug, deal with whatever you will eventually die of. Not having kids, and being a great parent, is the biggest missed reward in life. But, then, if one doesn't understand that, it's best that one doesn't have kids, and don't pass on their genes. That's what we are reaping in big city minority communities today. No Father; all Baby Daddy. I recall fondly the "noise and destruction" in raising a young man who became a Navy doctor and saved the lives and limbs of brave young Marines fighting for our country. Kinda my legacy. What will be yours? An empty dirty glass? YMMV

My neighbors have one kid who became a doctor and the other became a meth addict he's put them through hell even broke into their house a couple of times and stole things to support his habbit. I suppose they made every attempt to raise their kids properly as one turned out exceptionally well but parents don't have total control of their kids actions.

 

[roamin]

Your custom $5000 rifle that gets the same accuracy as a $300 TC Compass in the real world looks way better with a $5000 March optic and frankly it’s impossible to hunt deer without that kind of kit.

Just the facts...

Everyone's made choices that suited them and as a result everyone is also in a different place in their lives. To some a $3,000-$5,000 scope is only a weeks pay and to others $800 takes a month or two to save. After a decade of hard work and personal sacrifice I can say that I've been on both ends of that comparison. We get paid based on how much value we bring to the marketplace and not everyone has worked hard on themselves in order to attain the skills to become more valuable but the beauty of a free market and free country like the US is that everyone who's not medically inhibited/disabled can if they choose. Naturally those who have worked harder and thus make more can afford a nicer scope, and rifle in fact usually they'll be able to afford a better standard of living in every aspect of their lives because again choices. The alternative is communism which some perfer and usually it's the lazy that do fuck those people and envy combined with an unwillingness to put forth the necessary effort is the culprit speaking of which what was the nature of your comment anyway?

 

[tmpugliese]

I think the sweet spot is in the 1500-2500 price point. Atacr, mk 5, razor gen 2/3, etc.


the higher end are better but the marginal benefit is not worth it to me. I can get 2 of those for one zco or tangent theta and I have never missed a shot due to the optical quality of my mark 5

I very much agree with this. I shoot the ATACR 5-25 F1. I paid about 2750 for it. It has great glass (not the absolute best I've ever seen but very very good), capped windage, tactile clicks,34mm tube, its built like a rock, and has excellent consistency in tracking, better reticle options nowadays and overall has just been a great scope. It has all the features I want/need in a real quality package. I seem trust it way more than I would a scope with similar features for half the price ($1000-$1500) which I also own, but at the same time I don't think I would trust it any less than scopes that are double the price ($5000+). I think this really is a sweet spot for scopes (of this type). Just my thoughts, but thought I would chime in. Good luck with your decision.

 

[DetroitRearView]

I have a bunch of optics in each of these tiers, and get to look through a bunch more.

1. Better is better.
2. A lot of scopes remind me of Corvette vs Ferrari. The Ferrari does things that you might appreciate. Both will take you far beyond the speed limit in a way that might result in you shitting your pants. Beyond a certain point its just what you like and how much of your money you wanna see burn.
3. The T1 stuff has a tendency to hold its resale value pretty good. You can rent a TT or a ZCO for $100 or $200 for a year pretty much if you don't like it or need to flip it, as long as you take great care of it and keep the box.

Sort of like the car world, the scope world has really grown. What we expect today out of a Subaru for $35k used to be what you would expect only from a Shelby Cobra or a Lamborghini.

That was my my thinking process exactly:

 

[ACW39]

It’s been mentioned that mirage and reticle choice are huge and I’m going to echo that. I think environmental conditions are huge. For example, just yesterday in Florida I was shooting at a local range out to 900 with my primary long range set up that has a Khales 624i w the AMR reticle and also my longer range hunting set up that has the Burris XTRii on it. Now conditions were rough as my environmental readings were giving temps well above 100 and humidity above 60%. The area is swamp lowlands for the most part. So mirage is rough mid day.

I wanted to practice some stage stuff for an upcoming match and I like to use the reticle to correct follow up shots if needed. Mirage was very bad, but I could still make corrections with my Khales. However, when I went to shoot my hunting rifle with the xtr2 I couldn’t see well and had
To ask my friend who came along to help spot and call shots. Mirage was so rough that with some of the berms being lighter sand with white plates, shots were hard to confirm with my Burris glass. A hunting situation I’m sure wouldn’t be an issue, but to think of switching my Khales for my Burris and to expect to get the same feedback from the scope isn’t realistic, especially in all conditions. I agree with what most are saying that the difference in scopes of those top three tiers wouldn’t generally make a difference in easier conditions that aren’t that challenging, but the feedback and versatility of the higher end scopes are better for those types of scenarios and conditions. That is what is different and that’s what you’re paying for in my opinion. I have been behind TT and ZCO’s and I would say that in conditions like I faced yesterday that the quality of glass of those scopes would have cut through the mirage better than my Khales. Seen it first hand. But I can’t afford those at the moment or justice upgrading at the moment for what I do. So again I agree with others who say buy what you can afford and for the conditions you know you will be dealing with. Different strokes for different folks. If it works it works. If you can upgrade and want too then do it. My two cents.