Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have competed at the highest level of professional athletics. I didn't "enhance". I didn't have to. It's amazing what hard work, dedication and natural athletic ability can do.

Sure doping happens at all levels. There's no excuse for it..</div></div>

Yeah, but apparently you can't win the tour without it. I understand that all three place winners in all the races Armstrong participated in were all known to do the same thing.

I've long thought we should have steroid sports and non-steroid sports. Kind of like the difference between professional and college. Just make the steroid sports, uh, less desirable --lower pay, etc. And give them doctors to manage their doping schedule. I don't know. I just don't see a way of banning it and really doing anything. They tested the shit out of this guy for years and just couldn't catch him. But when it came out the number 2 and 3 places were always doped, it was considered impossible for Armstrong to place first consistently. That is why this blew up like it did.

Bans just don't work. I mean, the stuff is already banned and tested for. And I've heard that Armstrong literally had his clean blood removed, then doped up and trained, then had the clean blood transfused back in, then tested himself before going to their labs. That is why they never caught him. I recall that one of his team mates said he got real pissed and panicked when they messed up and didn't have his blood ready or some crap (this was a year or so ago). Amazing the lengths folks will go to satisfy ego and greed. And this IS the reason they do it, because I can tell you that those 'roids have some NASTY side effects no regular person would risk. Armstrong, were it not for his team of doctors that administer this and suppress estrogen levels, would surely have bitch tits by now.

I take testosterone because my body quit making it after injury in the army and the resulting pain meds I have to take. Anyway, I can tell you from experience there is NO training that will amount to what that damn shot can do. And I just use it like I'm supposed to, I don't "cycle". Losing 60lbs in less than a year isn't something most people can do sitting on their asses. If I could train, I'd be one bad motherfucker too.

What sucks the MOST of all of this is that he had his damn name tied to that spectacular foundation. He WAS Livestrong, it was why folks donated to it; they were proud of him and his comeback after cancer. And you know what? Folks should be still, regardless of the doping, not just everyone goes from deathbed to professional athlete.

Still, they should change the name of the foundation and find a new figure head for it.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Regarding Pharmstrong,

He took all manner of drugs. Steroids, Cortisone, Testosterone, and EPO. Which is a problem. He managed to stay under the radar by carefully monitoring his hematocrit. He, and others exploited a loophole in the testing process because the UCI didn't have a specific test for EPO they monitored Hematocrit. Anything, from memory, exceeding 55% raised a red flag. So he would monitor that and if it got too high he would infuse saline to bring it back into range. Blood Doping was also used to increase his O2 vector.

But where he really failed, in my view, was the manner in which he treated people around him. He obliterated anyone who crossed him or didn't toe the line. He excelled at character assassination and for some reason no one saw through it. He ruined careers. And he literally ran the US Teams doping program to a large degree.

So it's not just about the drugs .......... Those are just a piece of why he earned a spot in purgatory.

Bill
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

I haven't paid attention to the Armstrong doping allegations for a split second over the years. I just never cared. Today I watched one of his old interviews where he was denying having anything to do with doping. His body language and pitch changes were hilarious! Why did it take so long?
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So it's not just about the drugs ..........
</div></div>

It's Not About the Drugs. I smell a sequel to "It's Not About the Bike."
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Good to know Oprah's makin' some more dough...she must be runnin' short... as for the doping I guess we'd better just shut down the entire NFL, NBA.........etc.....just to make things right !!!!!!!
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have competed at the highest level of professional athletics. I didn't "enhance". I didn't have to. It's amazing what hard work, dedication and natural athletic ability can do.

Sure doping happens at all levels. There's no excuse for it.. </div></div>

Not trying to flame anyone here, but I think the some folks are trying to make a point about some of these sports as well as the athletes that compete in them. Doping does happen at all levels, but some sports have a doping culture so prevalent that to win you must dope. Bodybuilding and cycling are a couple of examples of sports in which everyone dopes and everyone knows it. No, it's not right, and no, I am not defending him. I am only saying that any "winner" of those events will be just as dirty as him.

Armstrong is a disgrace, and cycling as a whole is a joke.

I don't want to see "healing" either. It would be nice for the next generation to see consequences that stick (remember Pete Rose?).
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My thing about Lance is not about the "dope" per se, it's really about the way he vehemently denied it and even worse, the way he methodically and sadistically threatened and ruined other peoples' lives. That's what really grinds my gears. </div></div>

Egg Zachary.....

This is exactly what pushes me over the edge.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My thing about Lance is not about the "dope" per se, it's really about the way he vehemently denied it and even worse, the way he methodically and sadistically threatened and ruined other peoples' lives. That's what really grinds my gears. </div></div>

Agreed. Doping I can understand, it's a dirty sport and people want to win/succeed/make money. What he did to the others in unacceptable human behavior.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Yeah, there is a point where redemption or even reconciliation isn't really possible. I think he has exceeded that point. The low was so low you can't come back. With selfishness that deep, and cruelty toward his fellow man that grotesque, you can't ever trust again, and shouldn't.

And why would any of us believe that his self-serving motives have changed? This comeback sure seems to be about him. Instead of calling on Oprah, how about contacting ALL of the people you tried to ruin and apologizing. Maybe follow through with helping those people rebuild their careers. Nope. "I'm doing triathlons now and I really want to comeback."

Neat bracelet. You're dead to me.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My thing about Lance is not about the "dope" per se, it's really about the way he vehemently denied it and even worse, the way he methodically and sadistically threatened and ruined other peoples' lives. That's what really grinds my gears. </div></div>

Agreed. Doping I can understand, it's a dirty sport and people want to win/succeed/make money. What he did to the others in unacceptable human behavior. </div></div>

^^ That. Armstrong still had to put in a hell of a lot of work to win 7 Tours. You cant take steroids, sit on the couch and get big. You cant take EPO sit on the couch and win the Tour. You still have to work your ass off.

Doped or not, he still won 7 Tours againat a field of his peers.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Yes, it's unacceptable human behavior except for that little human idiosyncrasy that snitches get what snitches get. We all applaud and praise the whistle-blower but in the long run, we really don't want to be around a snitch because a snitch can't be trusted. Where are you now Brian McNamee, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Betsy Andreu, and Jose Canseco? How'd that work out for you? Armstrong didn't destroy the snitches, they did it to themselves because that's what happens to snitches.

That may sound very ghetto but unfortunately it's very human behavior.

I have to admit, though, I hate the French so anything that fucks with their program doesn't really bother me.

It'll be interesting to see if Lance becomes a snitch. Let's see if he squeals. I may have to change my opinion.

http://deadspin.com/5976064/lance-armstrong-could-snitch-on-other-dopers-to-get-his-ban-lifted
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Armstrong still had to put in a hell of a lot of work to win 7 Tours. You cant take steroids, sit on the couch and get big. You cant take EPO sit on the couch and win the Tour. You still have to work your ass off.

Doped or not, he still won 7 Tours againat a field of his peers.
</div></div>

I can dig it.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

I just assume basically all top level cyclists cheat. It was the norm back when I gave a crap about in the late 80's early 90's. I expect all that has changed is the advances in drugs and how to hide it. I don't dislike him because he doped, I dislike Lance because he's an arrogant self serving dick who treats people like shit.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Who the fuck cares? I am personally more concerned with the Big Bankers and Corporate Welfare cheats who whore themselves out for YOUR money.

This shit is a distraction. Understand that.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<span style="font-weight: bold"> I don't dislike him because he doped, I dislike Lance because he's an arrogant self serving dick who treats people like shit.
</span>

Like <span style="font-weight: bold">Ben Bernanke</span>

or do you only care about the Kardashians and Snookie?
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: match-grade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who the fuck cares? I am personally more concerned with the Big Bankers and Corporate Welfare cheats who whore themselves out for YOUR money.

This shit is a distraction. Understand that. </div></div>

Then move on. WTF do you come in this thread and spew your BS if you don't care. Most of us with a modicum of intelligence can discuss more than one thing at a time.

Don't shit in the thread. If you don't care for it, don't look here.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

. <span style="font-weight: bold">Most of us with a modicum of intelligence</span>

Suggesting that I don't?

Here is the deal: Everyone can get all spun up on this dude. But your are right. I don't fucking care.

Carry on, and forget what really counts.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Spew...

damn. Talking points much? Come on. Spew is what i do when i have too much to drink. Not when i point out the obvious. Would you rather talk about fake girl friends? All these fake ass sports heroes have fake ass lives. Get wrapped up and look what happens: disappointment. Dudes a lair*. Move on.

*hope that is spelled correctly
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

1. You came in the thread with ZERO to do with the subject matter, you only wanted to say how we're all wrapped around the axle about it.
2. That equals spewing BS.

3. Your implication is that all we are concerned about is this douche. None of us really care about "what really counts". Get a grip.

No one here is on soap opera alert as to what his next move his however many of us do have more interests than just here. Does anyone really give a crap or is going to lose sleep over it? I doubt it but we can still talk about whatever we want.

Now you've made three posts "spewing" bullshit about a subject matter of which you have zero interest or give one shit about. There is no need for a fourth. Move on Marine.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

I think we have all lost track of the reason for sport: it's about competition at its base. We have all lost a grip on what's real because so many records and sports have been trampled. Is it really believable that a guy weighing 330 lbs can run a 4.3 40? It's the standard for an NFL D-lineman. The slow ones get moved to O-line.
What if a guy was caught using a scope in an iron-sight shoot? A centerfire in a rimfire comp?
There's a line between finding a way to win and outright cheating; it used to be a few slimebags with no ethics, but there is so much money at stake, it seems to be OK with all but a few.
They all have the money, records, chicks, cars, homes. They don't get any more. Take everything you can from them, then when they are penniless and in shame, sue them for the interest. Just don't let them back onto the PR image repair trail. Leave them signing balls for rent money like Pete, who by the way has a new hottie. Was it worth it?
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, it's unacceptable human behavior except for that little human idiosyncrasy that snitches get what snitches get. We all applaud and praise the whistle-blower but in the long run, we really don't want to be around a snitch because a snitch can't be trusted. Where are you now Brian McNamee, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Betsy Andreu, and Jose Canseco? How'd that work out for you? Armstrong didn't destroy the snitches, they did it to themselves because that's what happens to snitches.

<span style="font-weight: bold">That may sound very ghetto</span> but unfortunately it's very human behavior.

I have to admit, though, I hate the French so anything that fucks with their program doesn't really bother me.

It'll be interesting to see if Lance becomes a snitch. Let's see if he squeals. I may have to change my opinion.

http://deadspin.com/5976064/lance-armstrong-could-snitch-on-other-dopers-to-get-his-ban-lifted </div></div>

Shouldn't you be off polishing your gack?
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, it's unacceptable human behavior except for that little human idiosyncrasy that snitches get what snitches get. We all applaud and praise the whistle-blower but in the long run, we really don't want to be around a snitch because a snitch can't be trusted. Where are you now Brian McNamee, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Betsy Andreu, and Jose Canseco? How'd that work out for you? Armstrong didn't destroy the snitches, they did it to themselves because that's what happens to snitches.

<span style="font-weight: bold">That may sound very ghetto</span> but unfortunately it's very human behavior.

I have to admit, though, I hate the French so anything that fucks with their program doesn't really bother me.

It'll be interesting to see if Lance becomes a snitch. Let's see if he squeals. I may have to change my opinion.

http://deadspin.com/5976064/lance-armstrong-could-snitch-on-other-dopers-to-get-his-ban-lifted </div></div>

Shouldn't you be off polishing your gack? </div></div>

You mean "gat" correct? A ghetto derivation of gatling for gatling gun?

No ghetto for me but I do know omerta. It's a bit arcane but the culture isn't completely dead (and still somewhat alive and well in corporate America).


 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

match-grade, I think I saw the taxpayers have given almost 40 million to support the US Postal Service cycling team. If we are to be concerned with greedy bankers and such, being outraged that we as taxpayers are funding a freaking cycling team makes a little sense as well.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, it's unacceptable human behavior except for that little human idiosyncrasy that snitches get what snitches get. We all applaud and praise the whistle-blower but in the long run, we really don't want to be around a snitch because a snitch can't be trusted. Where are you now Brian McNamee, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Betsy Andreu, and Jose Canseco? How'd that work out for you? Armstrong didn't destroy the snitches, they did it to themselves because that's what happens to snitches.

<span style="font-weight: bold">That may sound very ghetto</span> but unfortunately it's very human behavior.

I have to admit, though, I hate the French so anything that fucks with their program doesn't really bother me.

It'll be interesting to see if Lance becomes a snitch. Let's see if he squeals. I may have to change my opinion.

http://deadspin.com/5976064/lance-armstrong-could-snitch-on-other-dopers-to-get-his-ban-lifted </div></div>

Shouldn't you be off polishing your gack? </div></div>

You mean "gat" correct? A ghetto derivation of gatling for gatling gun?

No ghetto for me but I do know omerta. It's a bit arcane but the culture isn't completely dead (and still somewhat alive and well in corporate America).


</div></div>

Since you think with gangster ethics, I figured you would catch it.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Here's my take on it. Everybody has known that Lance and all the other Turds in the highest levels of cycling have been doping for a long time. It's against the rules, but so what? right? Ethics don't need to be followed in sports?

Well, as noted, he was supported by the Post Office to the tune of about $40M. An establishment I'd like to see stay in place. It's people who don't give a damn for the rules who shine a bad light back on their sponsors. The USPS isn't going to stay in place with stupid expenditures like that. And look how this is all falling back on those who supported him.

Another case is Roger Clemens. Lots of people took steroids to help them break records, get bigger, move faster, etc. Allowing them to become a 'better' player. Which, in turn allows them to sign bigger contracts. Getting to the heart of why we wasted time on the Roger Clemens story? Because 'Baseball' said it was illegal. Therefore we spend millions flipping every leaf from Maine to Texas trying to find out if Roger used steroids. Meanwhile the country is in several other crisis that really do need addressing. Like giving banks a total of 1.3 trillion dollars, coming up with a serious plan to WIN THE FUCKING WAR, instead of bullshit stay/bring the boys home talk, making Banks honor what the took the god-damned money for. Look at all the money wasted on this. Seriously addressing this half-assed "Social Medicine" that is actually "Corporate Medicine" because health care never changed. What changed is now you are required to give your money to the multi-trillion dollar insurance industry. Instead we'd rather have Congress (losers) talk about steroid use in sports.

That is why no one should care about fallen sports heroes. They should all end up like Ryan Leaf if they get caught. Then we can move on to issues that really do matter.

And, that is why nobody should give more than two cents of a shit about fallen sports heroes.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, it's unacceptable human behavior except for that little human idiosyncrasy that snitches get what snitches get. We all applaud and praise the whistle-blower but in the long run, we really don't want to be around a snitch because a snitch can't be trusted. Where are you now Brian McNamee, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Betsy Andreu, and Jose Canseco? How'd that work out for you? Armstrong didn't destroy the snitches, they did it to themselves because that's what happens to snitches.

<span style="font-weight: bold">That may sound very ghetto</span> but unfortunately it's very human behavior.

I have to admit, though, I hate the French so anything that fucks with their program doesn't really bother me.

It'll be interesting to see if Lance becomes a snitch. Let's see if he squeals. I may have to change my opinion.

http://deadspin.com/5976064/lance-armstrong-could-snitch-on-other-dopers-to-get-his-ban-lifted </div></div>

Shouldn't you be off polishing your gack? </div></div>

You mean "gat" correct? A ghetto derivation of gatling for gatling gun?

No ghetto for me but I do know omerta. It's a bit arcane but the culture isn't completely dead (and still somewhat alive and well in corporate America).


</div></div>

Since you think with gangster ethics, I figured you would catch it. </div></div>

Please, it's all relative. I've had the pleasure of grad and post grad ethics courses. Client privilege, patient privilege, attest confidentiality, you'd probably think the courses were written by prisoners. Some times they are.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

1. NO NOT ALL TAKE DOPE
2. IF those who do are caught/eliminated from competition you actually can have honest sporting competition, IF that means that actual winner of the Tour is person who finished 200th in doped up competition so be it HE IS THE ONE WHO WORKED HARD AND HONEST TO BE 200th AND HE IS THE ONE GETTING SCREWED (for victory and sponsor money)
3. If "all do it and that makes it OK" mentality works for you that speaks volumes of you and your ethics and you and people like you are persons to be avoided and if possible kept away from any sources of power.
4. As to this asshole, he should be thrown in fucking coal mine to work do death on bread and water without pay.
5. As to the sponsors they are one of the prime causes why some athletes give in to winning at all costs and they got their nice losses with this turd so for me its also some kind of poetic justice that they take some financial damage.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all this new information, I guess Lemond is Americas greatest cyclist. He won 3 tours, two after being shot, during the 80's and early 90's when doping was rampant. Yet, he was able to prevail drug free. Amazing... </div></div>

If you think any pro cyclist was 100% clean instead of simply not getting caught, you're just not paying attention.

The evidence is overwhelming that doping has been part of cycling longer than there has even been a Tour de France.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The evidence is overwhelming that doping has been part of cycling longer than there has even been a Tour de France.</div></div>

Really? Doping has been around for 100 years? I doubt it.
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

Tommy Simpson died on Mont Vontou (Might have been Alp Duex) after taking amphetamines. Don't know the year, but it was a long while ago.

There has always been cheating in sport, ever since there was something worth winning. Honour, prestige, money...

Please forgive my lousy spelling of the French names, but you get the idea.

N
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. NO NOT ALL TAKE DOPE
2. IF those who do are caught/eliminated from competition you actually can have honest sporting competition, IF that means that actual winner of the Tour is person who finished 200th in doped up competition so be it HE IS THE ONE WHO WORKED HARD AND HONEST TO BE 200th AND HE IS THE ONE GETTING SCREWED (for victory and sponsor money)
3. If "all do it and that makes it OK" mentality works for you that speaks volumes of you and your ethics and you and people like you are persons to be avoided and if possible kept away from any sources of power.
4. As to this asshole, he should be thrown in fucking coal mine to work do death on bread and water without pay.
5. As to the sponsors they are one of the prime causes why some athletes give in to winning at all costs and they got their nice losses with this turd so for me its also some kind of poetic justice that they take some financial damage.


</div></div>

Well, it won't be this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadej_Valjavec

Or this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janez_Brajkovi%C4%8D

Team Radioshack and Discovery. No dopers there.

How's that glass house?
 
Re: Armstrong to be stripped of all 7 titles today!

And those two are relevant to ethics discussion in what way?

You can evade all you want the fact is that "because everyone does it makes it OK" mentality is in essence lack of morality and ethics. And since you've stated that everyone dopes up i would also imagine you can provide proof for that or you're just yapping about trying to find rationalization for fraudster.
 
I was the biggest Lance Supporter, then shortly after his last tour victory, I became the biggest Lance Basher. Now I support him again.

Lance has proven to be one of the biggest A-holes of all time. I especially did not like the way he had a personal vengeance against the greatest US Cyclist of all time (Greg Lemond). I am not supporting Lance for his A-Holeness. I am supporting him for his wins, he participated in a sport full of cheaters where cheating was the norm. He also did not have any extra unfair advantage by "cheating".

I say it's time to give Lance back his titles.
 
Not going to argue semantics with you. If you want to say "cheating" has been going on that's fine but the modern context of doping, not so much.

Who said anything about Semantics? I am talking about actual doping. Like I said, it does not take much research to find out that doping has been around pro cycling as long as pro cycling itself. If you do not want to research that is fine.. here I will do it for you.. YOUR WELCOME.

List of doping cases in cycling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Who said anything about Semantics? I am talking about actual doping. Like I said, it does not take much research to find out that doping has been around pro cycling as long as pro cycling itself. If you do not want to research that is fine.. here I will do it for you.. YOUR WELCOME.

List of doping cases in cycling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why am I not surprised that Eric wants to argue about something he doesn't know anything about?

First, YOU didn't mention semantics, I am saying our definitions of "doping" differs and it comes down to semantics.

Next, you quote Wikipedia, a known completely accurate resource (did you pick up my sarcasm?)

Next, doping wasn't even defined until 1963 by the Council of Europe on sport ( see first point)

Next, your "100 year old" doping was the use of stimulants, not EPO, Test, HGH, or one of the many other naturally occurring or synthesized performance enhancing drugs as seen today. Cocaine, Caffeine, Amphetamines are stimulants and are not specific to athletic performance as the modern "doping" is.

So in conclusion, it does come down to what is construed as doping.

So do you argue more and take another vacation?
 
Why am I not surprised that Eric wants to argue about something he doesn't know anything about?

First, YOU didn't mention semantics, I am saying our definitions of "doping" differs and it comes down to semantics.

Next, you quote Wikipedia, a known completely accurate resource (did you pick up my sarcasm?)

Next, doping wasn't even defined until 1963 by the Council of Europe on sport ( see first point)

Next, your "100 year old" doping was the use of stimulants, not EPO, Test, HGH, or one of the many other naturally occurring or synthesized performance enhancing drugs as seen today. Cocaine, Caffeine, Amphetamines are stimulants and are not specific to athletic performance as the modern "doping" is.

So in conclusion, it does come down to what is construed as doping.

So do you argue more and take another vacation?


Who is arguing? I am having a discussion.

I see your point about Semantics now. However you fail to see my point. "Doping" has a specific meaning to you. To me it has many meanings.

I see your meaning of doping, aka "blood doping", increasing red blood cell count by any un-natural method.... but I guess you can't see my meaning. Should we go by only your narrow view of how all this works? For me Doping is anything that has to do with Performance Enhancing Drugs.

Say what you want about Wiki, but 85% of it is accurate and a good portion of the info has a stated source (so the direct source of info did not come from wiki). If you go on the wiki discussion boards, you will see stuff being constantly debated of what should be included and what should be omitted. Basically any Wiki Article can change at any time. If you do not like what you see on Wiki, you too can join in the discussion and site your sources and share what should be included, and what should not be. If you look at the bottom of the link of the Wiki article I provided, there are 444 individual sources sited that the particular article was composed from. Does anything you say have 444 individual sources? LOL ahahahahah

I would prefer not to take a force vacation. So please do not force a vacation on me ;-)
 
Who is arguing? I am having a discussion.

I see your point about Semantics now. However you fail to see my point. "Doping" has a specific meaning to you. To me it has many meanings.

That's what I meant about semantics as our different meanings are vastly different in their context and it takes on an entirely different perspective.

I see your meaning of doping, aka "blood doping", increasing red blood cell count by any un-natural method.... but I guess you can't see my meaning. Should we go by only your narrow view of how all this works? For me Doping is anything that has to do with Performance Enhancing Drugs.

No, we don't have to go by my "narrow view" as I completely understand your position. But when stating your position you could have preceded your initial response by asking what I meant by doping. There we would have started off knowing what doping meant to each other. So in the context of my definition I was right and in the context of your definition you were right. So it's not my "narrow view". Once we have a common and agreed upon definition we can discuss accordingly.


Say what you want about Wiki, but 85% of it is accurate and a good portion of the info has a stated source (so the direct source of info did not come from wiki). If you go on the wiki discussion boards, you will see stuff being constantly debated of what should be included and what should be omitted. Basically any Wiki Article can change at any time. If you do not like what you see on Wiki, you too can join in the discussion and site your sources and share what should be included, and what should not be. If you look at the bottom of the link of the Wiki article I provided, there are 444 individual sources sited that the particular article was composed from. Does anything you say have 444 individual sources? LOL ahahahahah

I only brought 443 individual sources. Sure, not everything on Wikipedia is false however it does have a reputation deservedly earned of being bias or in some cases completely incorrect. So to take it as face value of indisputable fact is not going to happen. Again, it goes back to opinion even using the Wiki entries as to what constitutes doping. But that's neither here nor there now.
 
Who is arguing? I am having a discussion.

I see your point about Semantics now. However you fail to see my point. "Doping" has a specific meaning to you. To me it has many meanings.

That's what I meant about semantics as our different meanings are vastly different in their context and it takes on an entirely different perspective.

I see your meaning of doping, aka "blood doping", increasing red blood cell count by any un-natural method.... but I guess you can't see my meaning. Should we go by only your narrow view of how all this works? For me Doping is anything that has to do with Performance Enhancing Drugs.

No, we don't have to go by my "narrow view" as I completely understand your position. But when stating your position you could have preceded your initial response by asking what I meant by doping. There we would have started off knowing what doping meant to each other. So in the context of my definition I was right and in the context of your definition you were right. So it's not my "narrow view". Once we have a common and agreed upon definition we can discuss accordingly.


Say what you want about Wiki, but 85% of it is accurate and a good portion of the info has a stated source (so the direct source of info did not come from wiki). If you go on the wiki discussion boards, you will see stuff being constantly debated of what should be included and what should be omitted. Basically any Wiki Article can change at any time. If you do not like what you see on Wiki, you too can join in the discussion and site your sources and share what should be included, and what should not be. If you look at the bottom of the link of the Wiki article I provided, there are 444 individual sources sited that the particular article was composed from. Does anything you say have 444 individual sources? LOL ahahahahah

I only brought 443 individual sources. Sure, not everything on Wikipedia is false however it does have a reputation deservedly earned of being bias or in some cases completely incorrect. So to take it as face value of indisputable fact is not going to happen. Again, it goes back to opinion even using the Wiki entries as to what constitutes doping. But that's neither here nor there now.


Cool. Now I say we give Lance his titles back! All of them.