Army M14 DMR finally finished.

[m1marty]

I first saw Army M14s during the early GWOT era. Vowed I would own one someday.
Well....today is that day.
"Surplus" everything with the exception of the SAI receiver and the Krieger heavy. All parts are TRW and modified as needed to meet the original build specs for these rifles (welded gas system, trigger job, NM reamed FH etc)
Barreled action done by a Navy friend who is at the top of his game. Stock work, trigger work and fitting done by the man who knows these better than anyone. I was honored to be able to do some of the grunt work with the files and paint along side him. Talk about a learning experience. What 'smiths charge for working on these isn't near enough. You don't realize the work load until you're several days in....and it still isn't done. Amazing stuff.

 

[sinister]

NICE! My back hurts just looking at it!

Seriously, though -- I have a soft place in my heart for the old girl, dating back to my 1982 sniper school M21. Not the best gun I've ever had/shot, but she sure had capability in the dark ages.

"No shit, there I was..."

1989 Philippines Coup, same time as the San Francisco earthquake and Panama Invasion. George Bush stated the United States would NOT support a junta that overthrew a democratically-elected government (President Corazon Aquino).

I gave a warning order to one of our sniper teams. They would provide overwatch protection for helicopters to move President Aquino to a protected venue. Their targets would be rebel quad-50 anti-aircraft positions.

Quad-50s that can depress on to your location.

Shit got real. We had guys do their quick mission analyses and it was interesting to see which teams would choose M24s or M21s.

 

[m1marty]

In action back in the day

 

[deltawiskey]

Another outstanding project!!
DW

 

[GhostFace]

Where did you find the stock? How does she shoot? She sure is purdy…..

 

[m1marty]

As a side note- I am searching for one of the cheek pieces for these. If anyone's holding, or has a lead, please DM me. Don't care what it takes......
2 hole cheek piece as shown below

 

[deltawiskey]

I first saw Army M14s during the early GWOT era. Vowed I would own one someday.
Well....today is that day.
"Surplus" everything with the exception of the SAI receiver and the Krieger heavy. All parts are TRW and modified as needed to meet the original build specs for these rifles (welded gas system, trigger job, NM reamed FH etc)
Barreled action done by a Navy friend who is at the top of his game. Stock work, trigger work and fitting done by the man who knows these better than anyone. I was honored to be able to do some of the grunt work with the files and paint along side him. Talk about a learning experience. What 'smiths charge for working on these isn't near enough. You don't realize the work load until you're several days in....and it still isn't done. Amazing stuff.View attachment 7723645View attachment 7723646

This post just put my DMR in the range rotation for the weekend... awesome rifle!!
DW

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Great job! You should be really proud of that build because it is gorgeous. Let’s see some groups! Cheers

 

[Random Guy]

That project turned out great. I esp like the painted handguard and patina of the various parts. I came close to building one like it, but focused on my USMC DMR replica instead, which is a very similar configuration aside from stock color and barrel contour. For those who don't know the history, I think 36 such M14 DMRs were made for the Iraq War by a Washington state NG unit. I call them the "final M25" rifles used in combat.

I'll keep an eye open for the M2A cheek piece. It's made of aluminum w/ rubber pad, and thus it could be fabricated in a worse case scenario. (I think the knobs are still available from McMillan so you should pick those up if possible). The hardest part is welding the aluminum pillar to the curved cheek piece to allow adjustment. Thanks again for those pics(!).

 

[IllinoisRifleman]

Nice job! That's a beauty of a gun. Maybe post some groups if you get the time.

 

[sinister]

For those who don't know the history, I think 36 such M14 DMRs were made for the Iraq War by a Washington state NG unit. I call them the "final M25" rifles used in combat.

A few of the Army Reserve Shooting Team guys from Pennsylvania and the Guard built a LOT of "M25-ish" DM builds on former National Match competition M14s for deploying units. Nobody knew how long GWOT was going to go, and everyone deploying wanted to make sure if they were going their stuff would be right.

 

[m1marty]

That project turned out great. I esp like the painted handguard and patina of the various parts. I came close to building one like it, but focused on my USMC DMR replica instead, which is a very similar configuration aside from stock color and barrel contour. For those who don't know the history, I think 36 such M14 DMRs were made for the Iraq War by a Washington state NG unit. I call them the "final M25" rifles used in combat.

I'll keep an eye open for the M2A cheek piece. It's made of aluminum w/ rubber pad, and thus it could be fabricated in a worse case scenario. (I think the knobs are still available from McMillan so you should pick those up if possible). The hardest part is welding the aluminum pillar to the curved cheek piece to allow adjustment. Thanks again for those pics(!).

I'll fab one worst case. I have access to a real one.

 

[sinister]

You could always just drill some holes and paint the butt using that as a stencil -- just like the rifles of Joes who lost the damn cheek piece!

 

[Random Guy]

One anecdotal about these Washington state NG 'M25' DMRs. I was told that by the NG armorer is that it was somewhat difficult to get US Army permission to make these accurized M14-based rifles back in 2003. He apparently made the case to those in charge that the USMC DMR rifle (which had an NSN and was built in 2000-01) was a 'standardized configuration' for an M14 DMR rifle, and the rifles he proposed building used the same basic configuration, but minus the welded-on rear lug that the USMC used. (Seems doubtful a welded-on lug would have been approved).

I seem to recall that he said that using a commercial barrel was also an issue at first, but the USMC used a Krieger SS medium weight barrel on their DMR, so the armorer argued that Krieger barrels were also an approved item with an NSN for a combat weapon, so he was able to get permission to make them along the lines of the USMC DMR variant. At least that is my understanding. Here's my example of a USMC DMR replica with a poster:

Anyhow, I hope the OP is able to find the cheekpiece for his nice replica.

 

[sinister]

He asked for permission from people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

Technically true -- Problem part 1 was copying a Marine or Navy pattern (welded lugs), not safety-certified by Tank and Automotive Command.

The Army Technical Manual for the M21 Sniper Rifle was a small blue book because the only real change from the M14 National Match was the scope. My copy is in a box somewhere, but here are official Army photos.

Any Army variation of M14, National Match M14, or M21 is perfectly kosher. An Army armorer doesn't need permission to use a Leupold M3 or M3LR "In lieu of ART I or II" for an Army-approved pattern (the two standard NSN scopes can replace the obsolete ARTs). When the rifle leaves the shop the logbook has the entry simply signed, "Rifle accurized, scope and mount installed per Technical Manual __ or Bulletin __ and returned to service XX date" with the armorer's and inspector's signatures. Just like a vehicle or parachute.

The M15 heavy barrel automatic rifle (no scope) was to replace the BAR, then for whatever reason it went away:

We re-did a number of rifles for 3rd Infantry Division (I believe -- it was a long time ago), and they brought us guns straight out of Anniston war storage -- vanilla M14s, Old Guard rifles, and National Match rifles. I've written about those a few times, either here or on AR15. Some of those rifles were absolute dogs and needed a lot of work. I remember one had absolutely beautiful wood furniture on it, like it should be in the Smithsonian, or gifted to the Queen and put on display in Buckingham Palace -- but it shot 7 MOA at 100 using match ammo.

If you're looking for Army references, these are just a few and are your Army "Permissions."

 

[scharfschutze762]

Question for Sinister.
Did the Army ever weld the scope mount on?

 

[Random Guy]

If you're looking for Army references, these are just a few and are your Army "Permissions." If I ever find my copy of the M21 TM I'll post a photo of the cover.

Please do. I always found the history of the XM25 quite interesting.

Not sure if you saw this older post, but I may have gone a little overboard with replicas of M14-based snipers/DMRs/SDMs…

U.S. Army/Navy/USMC M14-based sniper and DMR/SDM rifles circa late-1960s to late 201Xs

Decided to take some groups pics of M1A replicas earlier this month. These are basically replicas of US Army M14 sniper and DMR/SDM rifles, beginning in 1967 and used until 1988 when the M21 rifles were officially designated as obsolete - but despite Big Army's decision - a few M14s were...

www.snipershide.com

 

[sinister]

Yes, both these threads make me both happy and sad.

I went to the USAMU sniper school back in the 20th Century. My rifle was an M21 in a green camo McMillan stock with an ART I scope. Very simple, very fast, and dependable as hell to 600 yards.

ART II was meh. I never trusted it, but it was what we had (I owned a civilian Leatherwood, the same scope without the military data plate). First scope failure I ever had (in Korea), with condensation on the inside.

I owned a tri-desert McMillan-stocked rifle with a McCann mount and the Bausch and Lomb 10x. That was a good rifle. I shot into the Palma 20 a few times with irons at Camp Perry.

A lot of M21 / M25 history confusion comes from the fact that through the 70s to mid-80s the Regular Army was content to let the rifle rot and disintegrate, while Special Forces were actually using and improving the rifle since we had nothing else. Leg Army had no sniper school from Vietnam to 1987, and the Army was slowly killing and closing all its regional Army, Corps, Division, and post Marksmanship Training Units which ran local two-week courses. They were all gone by 1985.

Sniper-observer mission wise, the guys on AR15 love the idea of cloning "Recce" rifles -- those were the modified CAR-15s the spotter had to provide security or the back-up shot for the bolt-gunner if he didn't have a decent M25-ish or SR-25. The SEALs were developing parallel band-aid fixes supported by their gun wizards at Crane (who support both the SEALs and the Shooting Teams, now neglected).

The Crazy-Horse type Smith rifle was the Leg Army trying to give the General Purpose Ground Force a 7.62 self-loader (in lieu of an M16A2) after 9-11. From 1984 to 9-11 the doctrinal US Army Sniper Rifle was the M24, with an 800 Meter maximum effective range. The Army M21 was officially dead, while SF was making do with M21/25s that were never turned in, and a pitiful few SR-25s.

Leg Army officially got their 7.62 self-loading M110 in 2006, and their new M110A1 (technically for a Joe in the standard infantry squad, with no official Army school training) in 2019.

Mustang shave-tail sinister, back in the 20th Century:

 

[Random Guy]

Thanks for that interesting history. Is that you in 1982? An online debate in M14 circles has raged over whether that is a black USGI fiberglass stock? Or a very early black McMillan stock? Do you recall what stock was in that pic? (Gale McMillan provided the first fiberglass M14 stocks in 1981 at the request of the USMC RTE guys for evaluation use on their rear lugged match M14s).

 

[sinister]

Question for Sinister.
Did the Army ever weld the scope mount on?

I've never seen that.

If I were to do it today I'd use an LRB receiver with built-in scope bosses.

Standard and lugged receivers:

 

[sinister]

Thanks for that interesting history. Is that you in 1982? An online debate in M14 circles has raged over whether that is a black USGI fiberglass stock? Or a very early black McMillan stock? Do you recall what stock was in that pic? (Gale McMillan provided the first fiberglass M14 stocks in 1981 at the request of the USMC RTE guys for evaluation use on their rear lugged match M14s).

Yep, it's me. It's a very dark green USAMU McMillan with an SAK medium weight match barrel. There was no steel stock liner.

The armorer would get it back from you in the afternoon and hang them butt-up so any petro cleaning fluids in the barrel drained out and on to the floor (instead of into the bedding). In the morning you'd check-tighten the scope mounting nut and verify zero on a 300-Meter E-type iron maiden.

GI National Match M14s and M21s had epoxy-imbedded wood stocks. If I remember correctly the AMU put a batch of stocks into some kind of vacuum vessel that drew the epoxy into the wood, where they wouldn't be affected by tropical rain and humidity in Vietnam. The GI fiberglass stock is a toy in comparison. I don't know if you can do a decent bedding job on one (it's just too flimsy -- there are a LOT of voids you'd have to dam and fill):

I was shocked going from the constantly-maintained USAMU rifles to my platoon's rifles in Korea. They may have been epoxy-filled when manufactured (and I don't know how long they had been in the 2nd Division), but they were tired.

 

[deltawiskey]

I love your Army DMR m1marty!
My USMC DMR project still needs the correct flash hider, and my Navy SSR project needs the correct Leupold scope. I know the suppressor isn't part of the SSR, but I couldn't resist giving it a try ; )
My projects are a work in progress, some day I will run across the parts I need...

DW

 

[260shooter]

In action back in the dayView attachment 7723650View attachment 7723651View attachment 7723652

Couldn't they find a bigger night vision scope?

 

[sinister]

Ron Mickelsen of MAC-V SOG Recon Team Nevada aims his M21 sniper rifle, supported and covered by his Montagnard teammates:

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Ron Mickelsen of MAC-V SOG Recon Team Nevada aims his M21 sniper rifle, supported and covered by his Montagnard teammates:

View attachment 7728144

If you get the opportunity, check out Jocko Willink's podcasts with Dick Thompson and John Stryker Meyer, those two MACV-SOG warriors recount some incredible history and displays of legit balls of steel.

 

[BScore]

If you get the opportunity, check out Jocko Willink's podcasts with Dick Thompson and John Stryker Meyer, those two MACV-SOG warriors recount some incredible history and displays of legit balls of steel.

If you check this out, prepare yourself.... you won’t want to listen to anything else for a month. There are about a dozen episodes with some SOG guys, just great stories, it’s a shame they aren’t more well known.

 

[USMCSGT0331]

Couldn't they find a bigger night vision scope?

Scopes were bigger back in those days, we can’t bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell them stories that don’t go anywhere like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so I decided to go to Morganville which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So, I tied an onion to my belt which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel. And in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on ‘em. ‘Give me five bees for a quarter,’ you’d say. Now, where were we? Oh, yeah! The important thing was that I had an onion on my belt which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

If you check this out, prepare yourself.... you won’t want to listen to anything else for a month. There are about a dozen episodes with some SOG guys, just great stories, it’s a shame they aren’t more well known.

This is true, I listened to their podcasts during my commutes to and from the office or out to jobsites, it still took me a couple weeks or so to listen to all of them.

 

[sinister]

Couldn't they find a bigger night vision scope?

That's an AN/PAS-13B, one of the first thermals you could actually mount to small arms. The "B" version with the big objective lens wasn't normally on anything smaller than Ma Deuce -- but it did give you a better long-range view.

You can see the shooter pushing in on the eye-cup (used at night to keep from lighting up your face). Back in the olden days, for long night surveillance with the PVS-2 and PVS-4 we'd take off that rubber eye-cup, tie the neck of a poncho closed around the eye-piece, and pull it over your head to do the same thing. A little like this:

One of my AMU team sergeants was an insane hog slayer. He and another one of my shooters took it upon themselves to kill hogs that were tearing up our ranges at Benning. They were getting only so-so results with goggles and Starlight (passive image intensification) scopes. I told him to hit up the Infantry Center Night Vision Directorate and they hooked him up with a couple of PAS-13s.

When he retired from the Army he founded Jagerpro, the first commercial thermal hog-slaying outfit, culling hogs off Georgia farms (check out his videos on youtube). He started with 308 Browning BAR hunting rifles and now uses AR10s.

He's a millionaire now.

 

[BScore]

This is true, I listened to their podcasts during my commutes to and from the office or out to jobsites, it still took me a couple weeks or so to listen to all of them.

The Rodger Hayden and Mike Thorton episodes are also pretty awesome. Just some god damn men…

 

[HollywoodActual]

In action back in the dayView attachment 7723650View attachment 7723651View attachment 7723652

Not just back in the day. Marine and Navy EOD guys carry these in the trucks overseas. Great DMRs still in use. When we pushed Marjah in 2010 our EOD guys attached to us used to take these out on patrols as well. Always loved them (the guns)

 

[sirhrmechanic]

If you get the opportunity, check out Jocko Willink's podcasts with Dick Thompson and John Stryker Meyer, those two MACV-SOG warriors recount some incredible history and displays of legit balls of steel.

John’s book is good. If you liked that? Read “we few” by Nick Brockhousen. He did a sequel, too. Whispers in the grass. So you can find out what happened to the half-track.

Sirhr

 

[fdkay]

NICE! My back hurts just looking at it!

Seriously, though -- I have a soft place in my heart for the old girl, dating back to my 1982 sniper school M21. Not the best gun I've ever had/shot, but she sure had capability in the dark ages.

"No shit, there I was..."

1989 Philippines Coup, same time as the San Francisco earthquake and Panama Invasion. George Bush stated the United States would NOT support a junta that overthrew a democratically-elected government (President Corazon Aquino).

I gave a warning order to one of our sniper teams. They would provide overwatch protection for helicopters to move President Aquino to a protected venue. Their targets would be rebel quad-50 anti-aircraft positions.

Quad-50s that can depress on to your location.

Shit got real. We had guys do their quick mission analyses and it was interesting to see which teams would choose M24s or M21s.

I was station Dito during that time.
I was there twice, 83-85 then 86-90.
MOMAG Unit Nine out on NAVMAG.
Worst case of the clap I ever got was during the unrest, I lived out in town and stopped at a massage parlor, right on the edge of the authorized area. Banged an incredibly hot little honey at about 2200, when I got up at 0500, I was already dripping.
That was one of the few times I went to social medicine.