Procurement is the side that burns the money. They're normally not the side that sets the budget.
That starts at parliament.
But anyway, it's all speculation: yours, mine, and everyone elses.
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Sidearms & Scatterguns Army REJECTS Glock 19X, "It's a shitty pistol that is not worth the Army's time and money." - General James C. McConville, Army Chief of Staff
- Thread starter Fig
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Procurement is the side that burns the money. They're normally not the side that sets the budget.
That starts at parliament.
But anyway, it's all speculation: yours, mine, and everyone elses.
It’s really not speculation on my part, that’s you.
Let me rephrase for you: “JTF2 can afford holsters and didn’t go through the long process to field a new handgun without also thinking through their support equipment.”
Let me rephrase for you: “JTF2 can afford holsters and didn’t go through the long process to field a new handgun without also thinking through their support equipment.”
I would assume they got the same kind of deal that the US gov got. Holsters, Mags, Ammo, Guns as a package deal. It would make sense to let uncle sam doing the vetting (works in most cases) but they failed to consider that maybe SIG just bought off the program officers. These tier 1 units all train and deploy together so using the same equipment makes alot of sense. I doubt CAG , DEVGRU, 24th or RRC will give up their glocks anytime soon so there is some irony here. $150K a year jobs for a retiring 05/06 is a real nice ontop of your retirement.
This is my profession. I see bad contracts all the time, but when I see patterns like this being executed, while rules are being broken and examples that most good CO's know will result in poor contract performance (Underbidding and making it up on the backed) It really makes you wonder. I know what it looks like to see a RFI/RFP written for a specific product from a specific vendor because I do it every day. That contract was specifically written for SIG to win, and they almost got beat by glock by a cunt hair, which is pretty pathetic when everything was stacked in their favor. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knew Glock would be a better system for the DOD.
All things being equal, we do not pick the cheapest we pick the best value. Everything is factored in and when you consider the best value was by far Glock when you look at all the variables.
So either you had the dumbest procurement people in existence or something fucky was going on. Then you see the other SIG awards of recent years and its not a coincidence. Handguns, Optics, PDWs......
This is my profession. I see bad contracts all the time, but when I see patterns like this being executed, while rules are being broken and examples that most good CO's know will result in poor contract performance (Underbidding and making it up on the backed) It really makes you wonder. I know what it looks like to see a RFI/RFP written for a specific product from a specific vendor because I do it every day. That contract was specifically written for SIG to win, and they almost got beat by glock by a cunt hair, which is pretty pathetic when everything was stacked in their favor. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knew Glock would be a better system for the DOD.
All things being equal, we do not pick the cheapest we pick the best value. Everything is factored in and when you consider the best value was by far Glock when you look at all the variables.
So either you had the dumbest procurement people in existence or something fucky was going on. Then you see the other SIG awards of recent years and its not a coincidence. Handguns, Optics, PDWs......
Sooooo, is SIG lying when they say that they received the pistol and holster from Canada and found the holster to be a P226 holster redneck-engineered to fit a 320?
SIG SAUER Statement on CANSOFCOM Incident | Soldier Systems Daily
Yesterday, a Canadian news outlet, CBC News, published a story regarding the unintended discharge last year of a SIG P320 by a Canadian Special Operator, re ...
soldiersystems.net
Sig burned all their credibility with me at this point. Their long history of safety issues with the 938, 320, M400, 716, 516, MCX, or Cross kind of put me in the “wouldn’t shock me if it was the gun” mindset.
Just saying, there’s a pattern here with Sig. I’m sure it’s possible that it was a holster, dudes at every level do dumb shit every day. Couple the timing of guns finally getting to high round count users and safety features breaking and it does look a little suspicious.
Just saying, there’s a pattern here with Sig. I’m sure it’s possible that it was a holster, dudes at every level do dumb shit every day. Couple the timing of guns finally getting to high round count users and safety features breaking and it does look a little suspicious.
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Sig USA destroyed what Sig Germany/Switzerland built. There is a good case study for some MBA candidate to explore in how to ruin a company in an effort to save it, and somehow remain alive. Yes, 20 years ago Sig was hurting financially. And Cohen came into Sig USA to turn it around. And a lot of his decisions have turn Sig from a premium brand into a mid tier brand. I love my classic Sigs. But I have zero confidence in Sig to buy a gun from them now. While the 320 is more advanced than the G19, it is Sig USA's production capability and support that scares me.
...in more ways than one.
In terms of a business, is it not "successful?" in that it proliferates, "wins" contracts, and sells tons of product at a high profit margin? They've vertically integrated in their industry and now do ammo and optics as well since the old days. Per the bottom line, they technically are one of the most successful companies in the industry today....sadly enough.
You know the sad thing? I was on a few SIG groups/lists back then and there were a bunch of folks that called it from Day 1.
"He's gonna come in and do 'em like he did Kimber (I think...the brand is fuzzy). They're gonna release a bunch of boutique renditions of their existing products in special colors and shit, pump the price, all while quality takes a shit. They're gonna squeeze as much profit as they can and just keep the line churning with new models and derivatives to keep people buying...and, eventually, that'll be that."
I like my mostly Caspian SIG 1911 (and, lucky me, it runs...). I like my P226 and, somewhat less, my P220 - both made in Germany with the old stamped slides and finish that rusts if you look at it with a teary eye. Still need to get new grips for those...some day. Heck, I even like my P320...but, I really don't like the how they've handled themselves of late.
Yes, Sig USA is profitable. But at what cost? German made Sigs command a premium since they were well designed and well made. They earned their reputation since they were adopted by by military units and agencies that put function ahead of bottom lines. But looking at what has come out of Sig USA's factory the last 15 years, I just can't say here's my money. The MCX is supposed to be their best rifle. But what Gen is it on? And few parts interchangeability between the Gens??? How's that MPX platform? I really wanted one when they announced it. But out the gate there was Gens 1 & 2. I'm glad I hesitated, since all the modularity Sig promised fizzled. But also seeing some accessories Sig has rolled out, yikes. Remember SigTac? Stuff that made WalMart Airsoft look good. Some of those new optics are just rebranded Chinese knockoffs (Holosun).
I used to be a huge Sig fan. My P229R 9mm is still my primary CCW piece. But I think the brand isn't worth the price. Kinda like paying Mercedes Benz prices and getting a Chevy.
I used to be a huge Sig fan. My P229R 9mm is still my primary CCW piece. But I think the brand isn't worth the price. Kinda like paying Mercedes Benz prices and getting a Chevy.
That was kinda the point of my post? What reason do they have to stop cutting corners and being shitty? The train keeps on rolling no matter how much shade we peasants throw.
Because that worked for Colt? If it wasn't for the M4 contracts Colt would have gone under years ago. 20 years ago I compared a Kimber's base 1911 to Colt's Gold Cup. The Colt was twice the cost. But the Kimber's fit and finish were much better. And Colt SAAs look good in the holster for the Cowboy shooters, but the ones I know put the Colts in the safe when it is time to compete and use Rugers and Uberti's.
I would love to see Sig up their game and deliver on what they promise. I am really hoping their .277 round is adopted. I do think the 5.56 is too small, and the 7.62 rounds have been too much for standard issue. But that is a debate for a different thread And the MCX and 320 are worthy entries as 21st century weapons. But those two guns needed more time to get bugs worked out instead of trying to get to some marketing department deadline. ANd being a total system provider is cool, but if going cheap on the accessories like holster or optics is part of the plan, that isn't cool.
I would love to see Sig up their game and deliver on what they promise. I am really hoping their .277 round is adopted. I do think the 5.56 is too small, and the 7.62 rounds have been too much for standard issue. But that is a debate for a different thread And the MCX and 320 are worthy entries as 21st century weapons. But those two guns needed more time to get bugs worked out instead of trying to get to some marketing department deadline. ANd being a total system provider is cool, but if going cheap on the accessories like holster or optics is part of the plan, that isn't cool.
At no cost is the easy answer.
People lap up everything they launch. Their designs are unique, their marketing is everywhere, they’re probably the most capital-flush large gun company by a wide margin. As a gun business goes they’re an absolute success. If you’re an investor in Sig you’re happy and they’ve done a lot of things very well.
It’s important to remember we are not their core demographic. Their reputation might be shit with us, but we’re 3% of the market. Hank the casual gun fan at Bass Pro is susceptible to the hype and frankly it doesn’t matter if his gun works over a long period of time. He’ll never take a class, he’s uneducated on the technical aspects of the gun, he doesn’t train regularly, and he probably sells guns to buy new guns. The overwhelming majority of gun owners don’t care to dive into a forum or learn the trade, they just put them in a sock drawer and get very attached to the logo in their purchases.
We’re statistically insignificant. Sig isn’t slowing down anytime soon, but in some ways we all might benefit from that. Sig is big enough to steer the parts of the industry in the direction they want, and for all their faults they’ve got the horsepower to deliver stuff other people can’t afford to. Look at their dive into optics...pretty good value, optics/rangefinder/ballistics integration for the everyday user, a 2-mile integrated ballistics rangefinder that isn’t $10K, decent scopes in the top-end, serviceable RDS line...they did all that from in the amount of time it’s taken established scope companies to come up with a turret.
There are things to love about Sig, your new gun working safely when it’s released isn’t one of them.
Is it bad if I like my G19X? Asking for a friend.
Kimber 1911s are awful on the inside, so maybe not the best example. Their redundant safety system is nearly impossible to time correctly.
That's pretty much it, in a nut shell.
I got a chance to run a few boxes of ammo thru a buddies 320. It shot well, had good ergos and I could make good hits with it.
But nothing that made me want to give up all my Glocks, magazines and holsters.
The "new" Kimbers (the external extractor/FPS Series II guns from the early 00s) are indeed junk. But the first guns from the late 90s were quite nice. Sure, they had some MIM parts, but generally ran well out of the box and cost under $700. Hell of a value at the time.
True. I was thinking of the Schwartz safety ones. I actually don't think mim is a huge deal in the right places, but that fps system is a disaster.
Yes, it is. I had a couple of the Series 1 pistols, quite a few friends had Series 1 pistols, we were all happy, I ordered up a Tactical Series II as a Christmas present to myself... what the fuck is this crap?!?
I think that if the Schwartz safety was implemented properly then it would have been a workable system, but right around that time it became apparent that Kimber was no longer interested in making quality firearms at a very fair price.
Getting back on the subject - I like the G19X way more than I thought that I would. No regrets about picking one up (but then again, the only time I've regretted buying a Glock was after buying a G42 and then watching the 43 be announced less than a year later).
Everyone assbackwards .
Should be a 17 slide on 19 frame or a 19 slide on 26 frame.
If you are going to have a full size grip, no reason not to have a longer slide. Less Recoil, longer right radius, faster follow up shots.
Should be a 17 slide on 19 frame or a 19 slide on 26 frame.
If you are going to have a full size grip, no reason not to have a longer slide. Less Recoil, longer right radius, faster follow up shots.
Nope. I’ll be building my own at some point
I’d actually be open to building my own Sig on an 80% frame once someone reverse engineers a true fix for the fucking thing
Eh...I'll bite.
First, in the red dot era, the number of fucks given about sight radius (even between a 17 and 19) is rapidly waning by the minute
Whether it's quantifiable, I keep hearing people swear that the G45/19X is "smoother" than a 17. No idea why, but I've heard it more than a few times... Perhaps a leverage issue vs. slide mass. Perhaps the 19 spring size/poundage IS indeed better/softer than the 17 when used on an equal frame size. Maybe it's placebo...IDK.
Personally, I feel the 19X delivers in what it's supposed to be...a duty gun. For folks that don't use their pistol as their primary, I don't need any more length/weight than I require. And people forget that not everybody has a tiny pair of monkey paw or bitch mitten hands. A 19/23 grip comes with a degradation in performance and a 26 size grip is not even an option for serious performance expectations.
It was never intended to be a "designed for CCW" gun.
I don't get the clowns that want ALL the slide and NO grip. There's a sweet spot for both. In the slide, it's leverage in AIWB and function versus not hindering movement/motions with too much gun. Same with grip...more grip will print easier but removing too much grip affects leverage and performance (unless you're an aforementioned circus freak).
There's clowns out there that would happily go 17L slide and G26 frame if they could. Weirdo's.
The Grip is what you are hiding. If your going to CCW a 19X, Might as well go with a full size 17 and get the added benefit. Even with a RDS, you are getting a gun with less muzzle flip and recoil should you actually need to shoot it.
I don't really care what people say because they are wrong. Most people are barley functioning retards. Most don't even shoot so they have no idea what the real benefits are. The gun market like most markets are largely catered to low IQ bots.
The 17 is absolutely a smoother and easier pistol to shoot than the 19x. That is not really a question.
The 17 and 19 custom chop has been a thing for decades. I have carried a 26, 19 & 17 in the past, and the 26 is WAY easier to hide than both.
The 19 has always been that sweet spot of small enough to conceel but large enough to be shot like a full size. There is a reason they still sell every 17 and even 34 that they make. Comp shooters would not run longslides if there was not a benefit to it.
If you want a overt gun, there are much better options than the 19x. Buy a full size pistol and get full size benefits. The small hand argument is irrelevant in the days of modular grips.
Also, sticking a gun right at your dick, not helping your case. Nothing like fumbling around durring stressfull situation flagging your hog the whole time.
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We use G19’s, they are not going anywhere. We also got the Sigs, which is nice because it gives guys a choice. Some still shoot the glocks, others the sigs. I prefer the sig over the G19, only because I hate the grip. I have 3 glocks at the house and had the trigger guard under cut on each one to fit my hand better. If I could have my work glock undercut at the trigger guard I would probably shoot it over the sig. We also have had 0 issues with the Sig.
What we have had issues with is a lot of M4 bolts breaking and 2 rifles basically blowing up, we think it could possibly be the M855A1 ammo.
smallarmssolutions.com
What we have had issues with is a lot of M4 bolts breaking and 2 rifles basically blowing up, we think it could possibly be the M855A1 ammo.
The M855A1
We have discussed doing a video on the M855A1 cartridge for quite some time. Looking over all the information it seemed to make more sense to do it in a blog article where it could be articulated...
smallarmssolutions.com
Had a 17 grip cut to 19.... Very nice!!! I love that pistol
As always, you've provided a well-constructed and informed argument that relies on morals and logic, and eschews infantile emotion and rhetorical fallacies. From this, we can all learn.
So, to review: "cucked half ass full size" pistols:
And pistols that we are supposed to assume are not cucked?
And I'm guessing that this is OK:
And this is presumably fully-assed:
So this must be the bull in the relationship:
And this is some sort of quarter-assed incel:
Despite what your mom might have told you, we're laughing at you, not with you.
FN hasn't made a pistol worth a shit since the Hi-Power so not really helping your cause there.
FN are the Sig of Pistols. How many re-iterations, reinventions over the last decade.
FNS, FNX, FNP, now 509. Too little to late. Lucky for them there is a gun shortage or they would be sitting on the shelves waiting for shipment to CDNN like the rest of their shit.
Those guns look retarded. Nothing like a compact with a threaded barrel and a 20+ round mag. They also look like they have never been shot/handled.
What you going to take the gun out of your prison wallet and screw on a 7 inch long can before you defend your home?
Call of Duty is not real life.
FN are the Sig of Pistols. How many re-iterations, reinventions over the last decade.
FNS, FNX, FNP, now 509. Too little to late. Lucky for them there is a gun shortage or they would be sitting on the shelves waiting for shipment to CDNN like the rest of their shit.
Those guns look retarded. Nothing like a compact with a threaded barrel and a 20+ round mag. They also look like they have never been shot/handled.
What you going to take the gun out of your prison wallet and screw on a 7 inch long can before you defend your home?
Call of Duty is not real life.
I know exactly why you used the 509, which is a shitty example considering all the all the retarded design featured littered over those trash guns.
Now had you put some legitimate thought or research this is what would come up:
Now had you put some legitimate thought or research this is what would come up:
My biggest problem with FNs new pistols are that they are not made so that they are user serviceable. Having a pin that needs a hydraulic press to seat correctly is a bad design flaw. Yeah, I know you can gorilla them out, but you are risking some serious damage to the pistol if your punch slips.
ETA: I also went through three extractor claws in a year.
ETA: I also went through three extractor claws in a year.
They have never been.
FN is all about gov contracts. Those pistols are 100% designed to capture overseas military and police contracts. FN does not care about the US consumer, be it pistol servicing, spare parts for rifles ,ect.
When they don't get the contracts they are after, they dump the guns on the market to help recoup costs, many times with serious design or manufacturing flaws the come up.
FNP was produced for 5 years and shitcanned
FNS was produced for about 6 years and shitcanned
FNX has been in production for 10 years according to FN but I haven't seen any new ones in a LONG time.
509 been out about a year or two.
In 3 years they will come out with the 510, discountiue the 509 because no one buys the shit, the mags are expensive and FN doesn't provide any of the kits or accessories they promised.
Like I said, FN Pistols are basically Sig.
I don't have a girlish waistline or Trump-sized hands, so I'll pass in favor of a regular G19.
LMAO at the idea of cutting down a three-finger grip frame, losing five rounds of mag capacity in the process, and then adding on a pinky rest
I learned over the years, that every time the Army goes and issues a new piece of equipment, safety notices, maintenance notices start flying in your in box with in the first 90 days of issue. Sometimes a lot faster than that. Testing is arbitrary. Years ago there were stories of Beretta's having the slides come off, The worked said they were bad guns this that and the other. Truth be told the using units were not using pistol ammo, they were using hi powered machine pistol ammo, hence why the slides failed. They were built to the standard the US Military gave them. Had some one ordered them to shoot machine pistol ammo, they would of made them heavier duty, but at the time they weren't. There is going to be a learning curve with these, it won't surprise me if see an M17A1 or E1 variant in the near future.
Sorry that is what we got in the field in Safety of Use Messages (SOUM's), as well as coming from Fort McCellen Army Safety Board. It was not the Army that did had the incident, it was another service. It is what was reported to the field units in multiple documents, the SOUM also had us make sure we using standard Army Ball ammo. Allegedly and this was some 30 plus years ago, it was ammo for an Uzi. I can't confirm that part of it, but can say with certainty back in the 1980's when it occurred that was we got. We also had to go back and check all of our M9's to see if their were any issues. When I went to Aberdeen for the Automotive WO course, they cover small arms, and it was brought there as well, and that was in the early 2000's.
A quick search and here is the link to the GAO testimony on the M9 issue:
Little is known about the actual number of rounds
fired, because there was no requirement to keep a record of the
rounds fired or the type of ammunition that was used. Navy
officials estimated that the first failure occurred after about
30,000 rounds and the second after about 4,500 rounds. It is
believed that the first weapon was firing non-NATO standard
ammunition. While the contract requires that the M9 be designed to
fire NATO standard ammunition, the contract warranty is not
breached by firing other than NATO standard ammunition.
Ref: https://www.gao.gov/assets/110/102286.pdf Page 10 of the Report on Quality and Safety Problems with the Beretta M9 Handgun.
Another reference to slide failure on high count M9's from the 2008-2009 time framed, not an official reference: https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/M9_Safety_Message/15-76807/
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aparently machine pistol ammo is used in dues ex, so it has to be a thing 
deusex.fandom.com
I am still trying to figure out what the hell a cuck is, did y’all mean fuck but typed a C instead of an F?
Machine Pistol Ammo (DXMD)
Machine Pistol Ammo (Kaiga Ltd. Blue Dot 9mm Parabellum) is the ammunition used by the Machine Pistol (Hurricane TMP-18) in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. For information on ammo types, see ammunition. For additional gameplay information, see the corresponding article for the weapon. Prices listed...
deusex.fandom.com
I am still trying to figure out what the hell a cuck is, did y’all mean fuck but typed a C instead of an F?
Cuck as in cuckold. Look it up.aparently machine pistol ammo is used in dues ex, so it has to be a thing
Machine Pistol Ammo (DXMD)
Machine Pistol Ammo (Kaiga Ltd. Blue Dot 9mm Parabellum) is the ammunition used by the Machine Pistol (Hurricane TMP-18) in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. For information on ammo types, see ammunition. For additional gameplay information, see the corresponding article for the weapon. Prices listed...
I am still trying to figure out what the hell a cuck is, did y’all mean fuck but typed a C instead of an F?
This was a thing. A real thing - there was SUPER hot 9x19 ammo that was never meant to be fired in a pistol.
A good example is L7A1 - this ammo shits out a 124 grain bullet at almost 1500FPS. When it was imported it included a letter that it was unsafe to fire from the ATF.
SEALS were using that hot ammo which was designed for mp5 only in their new berettas in the 80s durring training. It caused slide failures and locking block issues. Beretta eventually beefed up the guns but they were never designed to handle those loads.
So NSW went to Sig due to what they percieved as the berettas being shitty; who won the other piece of the contract with the m11 (p228) and eventually got 226s. Kinda funny how that all worked out.
So NSW went to Sig due to what they percieved as the berettas being shitty; who won the other piece of the contract with the m11 (p228) and eventually got 226s. Kinda funny how that all worked out.
It does not take hot ammo to cause locking block issues in Berettas, those damn things break a lot
Dude there’s a host of people who throw that term out online. It’s a stupid movement made by stupid people. So to answer your question, nothing that word has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
Cuck is the favorite insult of the incels from QAnon/8Chan. Typically they cannot have a discussion and handle any facts that fit their world view. So they insult the other dude somehow assuming that since they have never been laid, accusing the other dude that their wife is unfaithful somehow makes their argument valid.
