As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

[Starbuck]

absolutely!!!

Ya me too but LL has made his preference known, provisionally, I hope!

I still think that a Phyisical Exertion Factor would be useful: Getting out of your truck, walking 10 yards to a firing line, lying down behind your gun, and adjusting your balls left or right so as not to affect your NPA, does not to me constitute Physical Exertion.

This is the extent of the physical exertion at the monthly PRM at the Colorado Rifle Club. The MD is Quickdraw40 on here, and I love the match, but there is no physical exertion save adjusting your balls. But it is a cool match: shifty winds, keen competitors, and good fun and comraderie. Just no physical exertion except the balls thang.... RJ I hope you concur....

Contrast this with matches like the SHC, the monthly SRM at the Whittington Center, or the Steel Safari, and countless other "run and gun" PRS matches, and you have a night and day physical exertion factor, that I believe should be accounted for.

Accounting for physical exertion would make LL's TRL scoring module that much more accurate, no?

 

[vonbalkenbush]

I am very excited about the TRL. Lowlight, go for it! Been following this thread for a few days now and all I can say is don't let the naysayers drag you down. I have enough time to shoot one local match a month and one or two regional matches a year. I would love to receive some kind of credit for our local matches where I usually finish top 3 which would be put toward a regional qualifier, that would be awesome.

 

[0311 Hesco]

LL, as of now what other things are you/they/them mulling over that do not have a clear answer? I saw the updated guideline and it looks fairly comprehensive.

 

[BGE541]

The gaming and equipment race has already begun and is happening in full force.

Guys have private Facebook page or Text each other information because they are on a team (getting around the no coaching rule)

No train up so they spend at week at a different range and work together before the big match or re-word the use of train up to by pass it.

Shooting all the same caliber and load, like the 6mm CM, they push to the limit with everyone using the same load. Then see point 1.

Gaming happens, yet nothing I have see addresses the biggest factor to any advantage in a precision rifle match -- Speed.

if the entire field is open, which it is now, there is no classification, that means first time shooter with a 308 and 168s is competing against 14 guys in the Top 20 shooting a 6mmCM all at 3100+ and there is no distinction at all. So by dividing it by velocity, you can have a guy with a 308 shooting 155s at 2800fps against a guy shooting a 6.5CM at 2800 and it's not a complete blow out. The advantage is small and here the better shooter can rise much higher than trying to compete against a 6mm at 3100.

It's 9.2 vs 8.5 instead of letting them max the 6.5 out, and blowing out guy. Windage is 2.0 for the 6.5 and 2.4 for the 308... completely fair.

There is no way to make it 100% perfect, that is impossible. As soon as you say all the 308 and nothing over 2700, someone will complain Shooter X has a S&B 5-25x and Shooter Y has a 3-12x Off Brand. Now you have to address this.

part of the deal with tactical matches is problem solving and timing. You have to hit the targets that are not all KD and you have to manage the clock to not waste your shots. That is what levels the field back down a bit.

I think the velocity split works. I think gaming comes in several forms and we cannot stop all of it. But we can run the gear down a bit. In F/TR they are talking about 308 shooters with 30+ Inch Barrels pushing heavy bullets as hard as physically possible., With a speed limit you cant do that, with a diverse COF you can maneuver that rifle. So we make it manageable yet fair.

Fair does not equal Perfect... this is not where we limit the tires, limit the engine, limit the weight, limit the spoiler, it's just a speed limit. That works and still maintains the spirit of a tactical Match.

I agree with somewhat "grouping" mechanical abilities together i.e. speed(fps) but at the same time for those who are just getting into it or as was mentioned earlier promoting this sport so ALL feel as if they are part of something bigger, I could see how not splitting speed/cal etc could be beneifical as well. When I shoot a match with a .308 and place well against/with fast 6.5 or 6s I almost feel as if I did BETTER the slinging my 6.5 fast and flat. I dont know if this is understandable but I get a sence of satisfaction by completeing something through practice/ability then of shear mechanical advantage... Like so many missions, you many not get the best gear but when you finish no matter what you feel as if you ARE part of the team due to the shear effort it takes from every member. Another note is to form a scoring system or whatnot that promotes first round hits... I know it sounds odd but that the goal here right not just hit it after 3. I mean this isnt just about shooting right? Its about motivating and "forming" responsible, like minded new/old/whatever comers to the sport. Matches should promote and require thought and judgement calls even if that is only in regard to taking that extra split second to insure that hit. As we all know this is a great sport but anyone honing this type of skill-set should strive to be sure that with every round fired they are certain of its placement and ability.

Either way, Im glad to see concern for the future of this sport and those whom are passionate about it.

 

[BGE541]

"well what about blah blah that is different then blah blah" are fucking high if they think MDs have nothing better to do then rate their stages with how physical, windy, mentally demanding, etc."

Im invisioning a large "Mil-Dot Master" but like x7 that for every avalible enviromental effect, bullet, rifle and guy in the back that was cracking jokes at the shooter. Some rediculous "sliding scale" for what each shot was worth... I agree this shouldnt he hard. Focused, Yes. Difficult, No. Some of these PNW/WW matches are great just because of the simple yet challenging COF and get group of shooters (to bad work is so busy lately!)

 

[Lowlight]

You guys are getting into the weeds and acting like a simple suggestion from just anyone is being taken as gospel.

The eh match rating is jut for informational purposes and has zero bearing on the individual score. I believe that there should be a simple offset based on the match shot because clearly all matches are not created equal. But nobody is saying the more detailed rating system is there to be translated by the shooter.

Not all suggestions are being implemented. Debating them as if they are doesn't change this.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Can I just have more matches to shoot? And hopefully an entry fee below $100?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[cwinner]

EXACTLY! I think it makes sense to find a simple way to split up into divisions, even though I may dust off my 308 and give that a whirl if this comes to fruition.

This is my problem with limiting classes by equipment.....experienced guys stepping down and dominating. The part I see as missing from this proposal is incentives to recruit new shooters, I think my division idea from a couple pages back would do that.

As I understand it now, a new shooter that buys a rifle chambered in the popular 6.5 Creedmoor and shoots factory 140 A-max ammo will compete in the open division and the one who shoots his ole dusty 308 for the first time in a match will be up against experienced shooters........where will each of these guys place? Damn near the bottom of each class so I don't see the difference.

I think you have an opportunity here to provide incentives for new shooters based on shooter performance, I'm offering suggestions in the spirit of improvement.

 

[Lowlight]

So what is the plan, making a recommendation with nothing to back it up or support it really does very little.

You see a problem, what is the solution?

Some see a problem with a class at all, let everyone compete in a single open division, you see a problem with divisions of better shooters dominating both... Ok what is your solution.

You can what if anything, what if is not a problem it's a hypothetical possibility.

 

[JSF]

You guys are getting into the weeds and acting like a simple suggestion from just anyone is being taken as gospel.

The eh match rating is jut for informational purposes and has zero bearing on the individual score. I believe that there should be a simple offset based on the match shot because clearly all matches are not created equal. But nobody is saying the more detailed rating system is there to be translated by the shooter.

Not all suggestions are being implemented. Debating them as if they are doesn't change this.

What's your thought on scoring wind? Is it too much for the MD's to take a reading an hour and avg. it at the end of the match? I was just suggesting it because all the matches I have been to it seems the majority of the missed shots where because the wind call was wrong. It seems people are against it, but I believe the wind probably is the biggest factor in a match. Like I said, just a suggestion.

 

[gugubica]

If you were to do the divisions, let the shooters pick which they think they are. Charge a fee for the pro class to discourage novices from signing up. Offer prizes exclusive to pros to discourage pros from signing up for novice class. Top 10 novice class shooters get bumped to pro next year. If someone wants to shoot in pro class that has no business being there, they will get their ass handed to them and walk away empty handed. If someone shoots novice and dominates, they are automatically thrown into the pool with the big fish.

Pro class shoots against other good shooters for better stuff.

Novice class shoots for fun and experience with the ability to process up.

Just brainstorming.

 

[gugubica]

Is it too much for the MD's to take a reading an hour and avg. it at the end of the match?

Yes it is, honestly. There is way to much going on during a match to deal with this.

Plus, who decides what is more difficult? It is easier to shoot in a constant 30mph full value wind than an 8mph switchy partial value wind, but that seems backwards from the simple wind reading avg. model.

 

[Big Dog Steel]

At least in my response, I was debating some of the other thoughts people had posted, just open conversation. Some are debating just to debate and others are just master debaters.

FWIW, I like the direction this is heading. Here's what I'm seeing...

- division based on velocity and BC. Nothing says division numbers can't change later, even after you see how it goes for the first year.
(pairs like weapons for a level playing field)

- course/match rankings, in the terms you posted seem appropriate
(Local monthly belly match should not have the same score as a tough larger venue)

- focus on more regional matches, culminating in larger venues
(Helps initiate beginners into the sport, lower travel costs, better for sponors, etc.)

- focus on helping smaller regional MD's put on a consistent, fun and safe matches
(more matches = more opportunities for shooters to hone their craft)

 

[Big Dog Steel]

If you were to do the divisions, let the shooters pick which they think they are. Charge a fee for the pro class to discourage novices from signing up. Offer prizes exclusive to pros to discourage pros from signing up for novice class. Top 10 novice class shooters get bumped to pro next year. If someone wants to shoot in pro class that has no business being there, they will get their ass handed to them and walk away empty handed. If someone shoots novice and dominates, they are automatically thrown into the pool with the big fish.

Pro class shoots against other good shooters for better stuff.

Novice class shoots for fun and experience with the ability to process up.

Just brainstorming.

I didn't see the divisions as pro and novice. I saw them as Open and Limited. Where limited would have the same course of fire, but without some of the ballistic advantages of an open class. To me it sounds like Limited would be the tougher division, doing the same course of fire with less. Sounds challenging and fun to me. Marksmanship revival!

 

[gugubica]

Sorry, I thought the equipment divisions was a given. I was addressing the question of shooter skill level posed earlier and referred to in LLs previous post.

 

[gugubica]

And, yes, everyone would have the same course of fire.

 

[damoncali]

This is my problem with limiting classes by equipment.....experienced guys stepping down and dominating. The part I see as missing from this proposal is incentives to recruit new shooters, I think my division idea from a couple pages back would do that.

As I understand it now, a new shooter that buys a rifle chambered in the popular 6.5 Creedmoor and shoots factory 140 A-max ammo will compete in the open division and the one who shoots his ole dusty 308 for the first time in a match will be up against experienced shooters........where will each of these guys place? Damn near the bottom of each class so I don't see the difference.

I think you have an opportunity here to provide incentives for new shooters based on shooter performance, I'm offering suggestions in the spirit of improvement.

In my view, the best incentives for new shooters are classification cards, like in NRA high power. Its fun to get a new card in the mail after working at it for a while, and it's a realistic goal for a new shooter to go from marksman to sharpshooter in a short amount of time. At large matches, you can break up prizes by class, and at small ones, you can ignore them. It's a good system, and has very little to do with equipment choice. Sure, it's easier to get a master card with a match rifle than it is a service rifle, but it's not meant to be the sole focus, just an incentive. The down side is that someone's got to keep track of all those scores and issue the cards.

 

[cwinner]

Here's a sample idea for award distribution to show what I'm failing to accurately describe. Is it something different, yes.....would it suck for some better shooters, yes but we do this cause we enjoy it.....take my specific example. My 9th place overall finish would have sent me to the prize table 25th in stead of 9th, my 27th place finish would have sent me 20th, win some loose some......but it would have rewarded some of those guys who drove as far as I did and did not shoot as good either through having lesser equipment, experience or by having a bad day. I've seen this concept work to encourage more participation in other sports.


Attachment-1.png

 

[Cuckler]

I think this is a great idea.
The prs system was and is alot like 3-gun nation was before they started the club series.
At first 3-gun nation focussed on top tier competitors, which is fine for t.v. And add publications. However, the growth of the sport is dependent on the rest of the field feeling comfortable enough to get in the mix. New shooters need to feel welcomed, and the way to do that is at the club level. The less people have to spend to travel to be part of the larger competitive picture the better.
Again going back to 3-gun nations new model, more focus has been placed on local club series events. This showcases up and coming shooters, clubs, and sends a clear message that new shooters matter to the sport.
Good job frank bringing this to the table!

 

[fargo007]

Crawl, walk, run.

You have a good framework to start with in regards to the BCV and the two classes (maybe three if we add gas gun which I hope for and recommend).

I say you kick it off with that.

Discussing things that are entirely the Match Director's domain is a waste of time and a detour to getting things done here. Things like:

How much physical fitness is required. You can vote with your feet and not go if it's too much.

How prizes are awarded.

Stage design, scoring matrix, etc.

Complain to the individual MD if you don't like how something is done. As far as I read, TRL is not claiming to be a standards body with enforcement powers.

Stay away from any attempt to characterize or enumerate the wind. If you do that, you also have to consider the distance. A 15mph wind on a 100Y dot drill isn't the same as a 7mph wind on an 800Y steel sniper team.

It's stupid simple for MD's to get chrono numbers or check BCV. You don't really even need a Chrony.

1) Set up a long range KD shot at some point in the match, and have shooters dial their dope and get off the gun. Then look at what's on the gun for that distance, and what's on their dope card. If they don't match, you've got a weasel, and it's time to break out the Chrony.

2) Set up a stage that forces a shot over an already set up Chrony.

I'm going to be running a short gun match this year that is going to be extremely heavy on phys. fitness. COFWOD. But it will be plainly advertised as such.

--Fargo007

 

[Lowlight]

@cwinner

I fail to see that that does, the prize table will be the least of the worries, and honestly you're not gonna be seeing big tables anymore if we spread things out and expand. They are shrinking already due to the competition with the matches and the individual shooter looking for their individual sponsorship. Really what you have is, instead of awarding the Top 5 you award the Top 3 in both the Open and Limited Division and spread it out that way. You can mix up a prize table anyway you like. In our match, the last place guy still got a $1000 worth of stuff out of 125 shooters. That will not last.

The two divisions is simply meant to group like bullets, calibers, etc together. So you don't rank each other on an open basis. The matches remain open races, you bring what you want, you shoot alongside everyone else, the match director does not even need to recognize this, and only here do see the end result until the Finale. It's at this point the divisions come into play. Potentially the 1st place guy in the Limited Division could be the 18th Place shooter for a regional. He would still be allowed to quality along with the 10 Limited shooters under him. That may go as far down as 40th place in the Limited Division where the Top 10 Open guys could be 1 through 10 in the final finishing order overall.

Also, for the others... No wind, it's a subjective thing as it constantly changes. You'll have guys exaggerating it to get more points and it would be too hard to say. Stuff like ranges are fixed, number of shooters is fixed, etc.

The idea was to have Qualifying Stages that any match director can run. You can shoot a qualifying stage at both local and regional events to rank your place that way. Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, based on your score. We can easily reward that like with a card. If you qualify during an event with a MD witness, (your score) you can then move up. Also in a regional match if you score in the Top 10 you can move up one place. A marksman who comes in the Top 10 of a regional then becomes a Sharpshooter. This will eliminate sandbagging. but it's not something I am sure we'll use. Externally sure, we can record that stuff to start, but match wise I would not see breaking it down that far. Unless it was the finale, where we awarded you the end of year qualification that carried over to the next, in which case it would just be practice for the 1st year.

We can go as heavy or light on the elements of this as we want. Everyone wants to add something, but unfortunately that is not how it works. As was noted, privately guys don't like it that it that the PRS Board is made up of the shooters competing for score. The Top guys are making the rules or enforcing them. So while I see things from everyone shooters standpoint, you have experienced something that has affected the outcome of a match at one time or another. We simply cannot regulate every "What iF" scenario out there. Nor would I want too.

 

[chaser_2332]

I love the idea of the smaller matches and more shooters with the ability to roll into larger matches, my biggest hope is that it could come together with the PRS to cover the whole spectrum. From the looks of the thread it doesn't appear its going to happen but I have enjoyed the PRS series this year and feel in a perfect world both types of matches could feed each other. More shooters is always better for the sport.

 

[Lowlight]

I spoke to George about the PRS for an hour... they want that to be a Sprint Cup Series, where their Top guys are just that, Top guys running for the championship. They sort of embraced the idea of the Top 50 guys (or less) being the focus on it. I asked how that model sustains and it was a question.

But believe me, I spoke to the PRS before and now, and they clearly acknowledge they blew me off before.

I guess if you don't mind putting in the investment to reach the top of the PRS, more power to you, but for some, it might be a lesson in futility when you look at the shooting schedules of who is in the Top slots there.

I don't think the conversation is dead, but honestly, if the goal is to only recognize a shooter than can break the Top 20 on any given weekend. I get the competitive spirit they have, but realistically I don't think enough people have the resources to sustain it across the board. But we'll see what more they have to say.

 

[NorCal Vu]

LOL...you guys kill me.

The lil "power ranking" system was just a simple tool to give MDs a way to compare their round count, COF, and number of competitors to other matches around the country. I believe this is a decent system because it takes the human emotional factor out.

Those have shot matches enough have all seen one competitor praise an event because they finished well, and some said it sucked because they fucked the dog that weekend.
Obviously there is more than a COF that accounts for a shooter's experience that makes an event great, good, or so so. I have been working with the AZ and LV folks on trying to capture the other key components that a competitor looks at while trying to decide if a match was worth their time, effort, and resources. We will probably use a 1 - 5 star ranking system for these components.

I am sure some folks out there don't care about what others think of their event, but I personally do care if a competitor has a good time at a NorCal event. After all, the competitors are paying customers, and a lot of them are sponsors as well. A shooter spends a decent amount of coin, effort, and resources to go to an event so knowing what the previous attendees experience was like might be valuable.

Like everything else, this is a work in progress. I see value of the TRL as there is value with the PRS. Both offer their pros and cons. Notice no one said a match can't support both platforms moving forward.

Vu

 

[Lowlight]

Really, and I think Vu brought this up,

The match rank is a way to replace the AAR some MD use to improve their matches. But hitting on some standards, you give instant information that can be used by both MD and Competitive to help a match improve.

 

[bohem]

After some time to catch up on the thread and Frank's intent with the classes I think it makes more sense. With a shortage of available time for anything lately, I was really not seeing a point to having classes for the sake of having classes and there being no differentiation in score standings between them. I think I understand what his goal is, it makes sense more.

For the idea about ranking matches based on wind? Seems like a completely subjective listing and it could easily complicate things in a ridiculous manner (again, back to the point I continue to aim at... take Ocham's Razor to any rule book)

A scoring model where 1st place is 100%, second place is 2ndplace/1stplace score %'s just like they do in the PRS is a normalizing metric that works to even things out across the country. A 1st place finish in a high wind match still nets a 100% which counts equally against someone in a no-wind match with 100%. The wind affects all the shooters during an event and will push the overall hit% up or down, but that washes away when compared to the regional and national standings.

In terms of setting time limits that bias matches up or down across the country, I would point back to my comments on biasing for wind. The match scores as % of winner will wash this time effect mostly away as well.

Having a setup where the Limited and Open classes exist, "Match in a Box" is favorable to the 100-300yd ranges that are prevalent, and an otherwise pretty open rule book seems to make a lot of sense.

Having the SHC as a National Championship sounds fantastic, the only concern I would have is getting people locked out of it because of too many people attending. That isn't a 1st year issue though because as Frank pointed out, the past year was open enrollment and 125 people showed up, nobody was left out in the cold wishing because they were on the waiting list. And again, if we have to run 2 championships, then Frank's right... the model worked, so let's do it.

 

[turbo54]

If you were to do the divisions, let the shooters pick which they think they are. Charge a fee for the pro class to discourage novices from signing up. Offer prizes exclusive to pros to discourage pros from signing up for novice class. Top 10 novice class shooters get bumped to pro next year. If someone wants to shoot in pro class that has no business being there, they will get their ass handed to them and walk away empty handed. If someone shoots novice and dominates, they are automatically thrown into the pool with the big fish.

Pro class shoots against other good shooters for better stuff.

Novice class shoots for fun and experience with the ability to process up.

Just brainstorming.

This is the most logical, elegant and productive thing I've read in this thread.

An honor system based novice/expert division, where top performing novices get bumped if they don't self-enter into expert.

Like NRA hi power, "experts" have to do a lot of sucking for a while to get put back in novice.

As has been mentioned, the "word is out" that 308s suck, and there are a lot of newbs starting with high performance "expert" chambering - shouldn't they be shooting against other newbs and not the experts?

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

This is the most logical, elegant and productive thing I've read in this thread.

An honor system based novice/expert division, where top performing novices get bumped if they don't self-enter into expert.

Like NRA hi power, "experts" have to do a lot of sucking for a while to get put back in novice.

As has been mentioned, the "word is out" that 308s suck, and there are a lot of newbs starting with high performance "expert" chambering - shouldn't they be shooting against other newbs and not the experts?

Then I hope my entry fee is less than the pros if my prizes are going to be less too.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[lash]

This is the most logical, elegant and productive thing I've read in this thread.

An honor system based novice/expert division, where top performing novices get bumped if they don't self-enter into expert.

Like NRA hi power, "experts" have to do a lot of sucking for a while to get put back in novice.

As has been mentioned, the "word is out" that 308s suck, and there are a lot of newbs starting with high performance "expert" chambering - shouldn't they be shooting against other newbs and not the experts?

I get it and can appreciate what you are saying, but as a newb I bought a .260 "expert" chambering because I did my homework and realized it would make the mid ranges easier until I gathered enough experience to make a difference. While I may end up in a different division (probably not from what I see), I don't think it necessarily makes that an expert class and if I'm shooting against a pro shooter I would expect to have my ass handed to me and hope that I'm smart enough to learn from the experience.

Also, there are many of you in regions with quite a few more "pro" style matches and therefore a lot of discussion about the prize tables. I'm not after your prizes at this point. I'm much more interested in making local matches more accessible to the schmuck who wants to get into the sport without having to pay a $$$ or $$$$ entry fee. I really get the feeling that there are some of you that are afraid that your booty will be divided among-st the masses like so much socialist payola. It's almost funny in a way. Putting the words novice and expert upon a weighted speed-based system is just so much spinning IMO.

From all I have been reading, there's really no intent at ALL to change what is going on in your local match, your PRS match, or any other match. It's still all up to the local MD and how he/she wants to run his match. This is more about a way to pull people in "out from the cold" if you will and let them have an inkling of an idea how they might compare to com-padres in another part of the country/world even.

FWIW from a guy who has no dog in the race yet.

 

[gugubica]

Then I hope my entry fee is less than the pros if my prizes are going to be less too.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

In the example, which is just a musing and may not even be relevant, it would be...nothing, in fact. I don't feel like new shooters would like to pay for a ranking system. But if they are in it for free, they get to see where they stand and what they have to do to move up.

Again, don't lose sight that my post was just an example that may not be relevant or needed in what Frank is trying to do...just an idea for the sake of discussion.

[MENTION=75240]lash[/MENTION]
Trust me, I have no issue with you taking my prizes...I typically don't get any. That is not what this is about, trust me.

 

[lash]

[MENTION=75240]lash[/MENTION]
Trust me, I have no issue with you taking my prizes...I typically don't get any. That is not what this is about, trust me.

I'm sure that you do not have to worry about that happening. I will be a happy man when I enter, compete in, and complete my first match and am planning on that being soon. Local, small, and unheralded, but the thrill and fun will be no less for me I assure you.

 

[turbo54]

[MENTION=70682]GD.Stone[/MENTION]

I'd hope entry fee for novice class would be less if rewards were less, only makes sense.


[MENTION=75240]lash[/MENTION]

A newb with a 260 should be shooting "against" other newbs. Isn't the objective here to make it more reasonable for newbs to compete? I doubt the top PRS shooters would be sweating being equipped with a 308 going against a new with a 260 (or 6mm). YES, cartridge matters, but being new matters more.

I'm not sure if your payola comment was directed at me...? I am not in contention for top prizes or winning. I'm a "pro" for this discussion, but a novice in comparison to the top PRS shooters. So, I don't get big prizes and frankly don't care. I started shooting these matches with a top loading Savage 308. Was I intimidated? No. Would it have been cool to have been able to be ranked against other novices? Sure.

 

[NorCal Vu]

LOL...since when did match fees depend on prize tables?

GD Stone...my bad, not Turbo. it cost just as much to have you in a match taking last place as it does the first place winner. Think about it...

 

[turbo54]

LOL...since when did match fees depend on prize tables?

Turbo, it cost just as much to have you in a match taking last place as it does the first place winner. Think about it...

Good point.

How would you propose to address the novice class? Same entry fee, because it still cost the range the same, and they come to the prize table (if there is one....) when?

 

[lash]

[MENTION=45618]turbo54[/MENTION]

It may be that I mistook your musings for something I've seen throughout this thread, and likely mis-interpreted then too...

However, I'm not sure that I want to be competing only against other novices on the field. While that provides a temporary feel-good feeling if I'm doing well, it really doesn't drive me like shooting against my betters will do.

On the other hand, I would like to log onto SH and then see how I do compare to others throughout the community, whether they be novice or seasoned, amateur or pro, young or old. That, I think, is what this is really about. Maybe I'm all wet, but then it is said that we see and hear what we want to...

 

[turbo54]

Only seems fair that 1st place pro and 1st place novice would come to the table together. Then 2nd novice/2nd pro...

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

In the example, which is just a musing and may not even be relevant, it would be...nothing, in fact. I don't feel like new shooters would like to pay for a ranking system. But if they are in it for free, they get to see where they stand and what they have to do to move up.

Again, don't lose sight that my post was just an example that may not be relevant or needed in what Frank is trying to do...just an idea for the sake of discussion.
[MENTION=75240]lash[/MENTION]
Trust me, I have no issue with you taking my prizes...I typically don't get any. That is not what this is about, trust me.

I am 100% on board with what Frank has said. I'm not anywhere near being onboard for having a "novice" and "pro" categories, with the better prizes reserved for the "pros" which is what I was replying to.

Whoever shoots best in the match should walk away with whatever prize they earned.

There should be some form of recognition that put up good performances with a marginal caliber to broaden the sport. It's kind of ridiculous that most people consider a $3000 custom rifle to be the only way to win at this sport.

This really isnt even an issue. Its the lack of local matches that dont cost a $100+ entry fee that keeps this sport from taking off. There were only 4 matches last year near Ft. Bragg that I could find. Compare that to Highpower... I can go to a reduced course match every month, and I can go to a major across the course or prone match almost every month if I wanted to.



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[Lowlight]

Who said anything about "novice vs expert" classes ?

I said a speed division because running your ballistically inferior bullet against a ballistic superior one is a known quantity, but I never said classes in terms of experience.

Sure we can have a qualify stage at any match to rate your ability level, like they do with handgun, but I was not planning on breaking people down match wise into it. I have always stated the matches themselves would not change. Everyone shoots together... This is information to help you grow and progress, and gives you a sense of balance. But like someone noted, if you consider yourself a novice and beat a so called expert, you get a better feeling about yourself. (although anyone can have a bad day)

You have to understanding starting out, you'll have matches with TRL people in it, PRS shooters, Match directors with no idea who either the TRL or PRS is, individual attending with no clue. The beauty is everyone can shoot alongside each other and walk away with a score necessary for the TRL, if you want to bring additional data back to the TRL for informational / analysis purposes, that works too... it's about resources, collecting and disseminating data from competitions that allows any individual to rank themselves alongside like minded shooters from across the country, even around the world.

 

[NorCal Vu]

We do 18 matches a year. 20.00 for the LR matches, and 30.00 for the steel matches. No prizes, just trophies for the winner and his or hers cash back.

Sounds like you and your fellow tac shooters need to get together to find out how you guys can get more events out there.

 

[poison123]

How about we do away with Prize Tables for a Year..........just saying. Would show who really cares about the sport and their love of shooting.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Who said anything about "novice vs expert" classes ?

I said a speed division because running your ballistically inferior bullet against a ballistic superior one is a known quantity, but I never said classes in terms of experience.

Sure we can have a qualify stage at any match to rate your ability level, like they do with handgun, but I was not planning on breaking people down match wise into it. I have always stated the matches themselves would not change. Everyone shoots together... This is information to help you grow and progress, and gives you a sense of balance. But like someone noted, if you consider yourself a novice and beat a so called expert, you get a better feeling about yourself. (although anyone can have a bad day)

You have to understanding starting out, you'll have matches with TRL people in it, PRS shooters, Match directors with no idea who either the TRL or PRS is, individual attending with no clue. The beauty is everyone can shoot alongside each other and walk away with a score necessary for the TRL, if you want to bring additional data back to the TRL for informational / analysis purposes, that works too... it's about resources, collecting and disseminating data from competitions that allows any individual to rank themselves alongside like minded shooters from across the country, even around the world.

Disregard what I said. Its not relevant to the conversation; my understanding is we're discussing an alternative to classes based on BC*V.

I just think a novice vs pro class is not a practical idea since the course of fire is not standardized.

Get this going so we can have more matches.

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[BangBangBlatBlat]

We do 18 matches a year. 20.00 for the LR matches, and 30.00 for the steel matches. No prizes, just trophies for the winner and his or hers cash back.

Sounds like you and your fellow tac shooters need to get together to find out how you guys can get more events out there.

If I was an MD, thats what I would be doing. Collect enough money to sustain the targets/range and then focus on the shooting. Leave a big prize table for those larger matches or championships.

But I'm just a new guy trying to get into it.

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[lash]

Exactly...

Same here.

 

[Rob01]

Whoever shoots best in the match should walk away with whatever prize they earned.

Exactly! How competition works. That said, it would be up to the match director to determine how his match is going to hand out prizes.
[MENTION=27374]poison123[/MENTION]
Not sure about how deep others pocketbooks are but I use the prizes taken off the prize table to help pay back my savings account so I can continue to shoot matches. A viscous cycle. LOL Not having prizes and having to pay out $1200+ to go to a match would make the season much shorter and not have anything to do with caring about the sport or love of shooting. I know I am not the only one who does this also.

 

[Lowlight]

The key is the matches have to have a return on investment.

I know a ton of local matches attempt to contact manufacturers about prizes, but talking to several, they just can't support the overwhelming number of requests they get. Especially for smaller matches. So the local matches really should not count on prize donations, but work to figure out other ways to recruit new shooters. It should be about building on the skill set, and then have an aggregate ranking at the end of the season. If anything see about contacting local businesses to give the aggregate winners a discount locally. That way it feeds the local community too.

Regionals will have a much better shot at some prizes, but not huge. You can't expect a $200k + table like we see at out match.

The draw to a local match is definitely the ease of access. You don't have to travel, you sleep in your own bed, they are relatively short, just a few hours. Focus on that, making a better match. I know here in CO they have a match pretty much each week somewhere within 2 to 4 hours of Denver. They fill up pretty much every week with 40+ shooters as much as 70 people in fact. So, you have to focus on better courses of fire and not the pay out.

 

[gugubica]

Just to clarify, because I think a few are confused...every one shoots the same COF at the same time and the winner gets first pull of the table. No classes, divisions or categories will change that.

As a MD I have no time or desire to know who is a part of what group. If you sign up, you will be given the same match as everyone else.

The only difference you will we with a speed class or expert/marksmen etc. is in the results posted online after the match is over. That way everyone can be a little more honest about how well they did. If you got your ass absolutely kicked, but it was from a top level shooter with a shit hot cartridge, it would be better to compare yourself with a shooter that is the same skill level using the same type of setup.

 

[Lowlight]

The only time it matters at the match level during the match is at select national level matches. (probably just SH stuff) If you want to do it at regional level that can happen too, but 90% of all the matches out there it does not matter who the shooter is or with. (unless you agree to the PRS stuff ) but for what I am suggesting the MD has nothing to do but provide a safe, enjoyable, challenging COF.

As far as the match is concerned everyone is equal.

The rest happens after, and online.

 

[seanhagerty]

Lots of discussions on matches rules, classes, etc...

I just want to make sure I understand this last point clearly.

1. The match gets ran as the MD see's fit.
2. The only thing the TRL is going to do is collect scores after the fact, that are sent in by the MD.

LL, Is that a clear understanding of how you see this?

Sean

 

[redirt78]

The only time it matters at the match level during the match is at select national level matches. (probably just SH stuff) If you want to do it at regional level that can happen too, but 90% of all the matches out there it does not matter who the shooter is or with. (unless you agree to the PRS stuff ) but for what I am suggesting the MD has nothing to do but provide a safe, enjoyable, challenging COF.

As far as the match is concerned everyone is equal.

The rest happens after, and online.

Can you post an example of what you would need from the TRL member or MD after the match?

from what I've read I think it would look something like:

number of targets

number of hits

position TRL member finished in

TRL members BCMV

--------—----------—------------—------

you probably have other information needed also but that seemed like the main points.

 

[fargo007]

A walk through of this part would do me some good as well.