At what point do your cases become too short?

[Swift]

I've been workin through a batch of Nosler 308 over the last year or so. They're goin on 13 firings and I've trimmed em three times. Case length now measures 1.899-1.902. At what point do the necks become too short to safely secure a projectile?

Also, what other issues could short cases present?

 

[tipper]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

Why are you trimming them?

 

[427Cobra]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

2.005 is the minimum trim length for 308, but IMHO that's still too short, stop trimming your brass, as a matter of fact shit can that brass.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

Friends don't let friends learn to reload on the internet.

Beyond that I am speechless, or at least I must hold my tongue. Throw them away and learn to trim cases properly and when it is needed.

 

[Mordamer]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

Are you serious?! Measure your cases and ONLY trim them if they need it. I couldn't believe this when I read it.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

"At what point do the necks become too short to safely secure a projectile?"

When the bullets start fallin' out I suppose.

 

[tigerfan_9]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are you trimming them?</div></div>

I haven't even started reloading yet (just researching) and this was my first question. Know the numbers and trim when they are too long or trim to keep a specific length don't just trim for the sake of trimming and certainly know how much you are trimming.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

I can't figure out what this guy is saying? Because it doesn't make much sense. We need an explanation and maybe he just doesn't have a clue what he is doing or why? Fired 13 times is one thing, and trimmed three times.....but it appears that he doesn't understand the reasons for why a handloader needs to do certain things? And, only when required.

I used to used a hand crank neck trimmer and once, many years ago, I found that the lock collar set screw wasn't tight and I had succeeded in cranking that handle a little too vigorously, and wound up with several short necks before it dawned on me, what was happening.

Should be interesting to hear reasons, etc. BB

 

[Sportin Wood]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

You only need to trim your brass when it gets too long, not every reload.

 

[Swift]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

I don't have competition dies that size within .002" so after a few firings they're inconsistent and I trim them to match the shortest length. It takes life out of the brass but loads are more accurate and the bolt doesn't stick.

Better equipment isn't in the budget right now so I work with what I have.

 

[cruze5]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

could someone answer with:

1. at what length should you trim .308 brass
2. what length brass is too short and should be disposed of


this would help me alot

Thank you

 

[tipper]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

The answer is at the top of this Forum, if you take the time to read it you may get the answer, if not them ask the Question.

Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep

(Trim to length: upon firing of the loaded round the case greatly softens and inflates like a balloon to fill the chamber of the weapon. This seals the chamber and prevents gas leaks, etc. but with the brass nearing a liquid ("plastic") state it flows with the pressure of the propellant gas. Hence as stated before our primer pockets not staying uniform, the over all length of the case grows and the mouth of the case typically thins. Your reloading manual will give you the nominal "trim to length" measurement of a given cartridge case. So place said case in your case trimmer and trim it back correct? No.

NO!!! We are precision shooters for crying out loud. I have a friend that mows every case he get's his hands on back to minimum length and it gripes me to no end.

Historically & generally speaking the classic ultra accurate cartridges of the Bench Rest enviornment have longer than normal case necks. The typical case neck for a given cartridge is one caliber wide. Example: a 308 Winchester's bullet is a diameter of .308" so therefore the rule of thumb is the mouth of the case should be "about" .308" long minimum. This allows good bullet tension and support so our carefully assembled loaded round's bullet is sitting dead inline with the cases' centerline- which is inline with the centerline of the bore. All this leads to good shooting and smiles. The more we hack back the case mouth the less neck we have to make sure our bullet is held inline. And the benchrest cartridges I mentioned- they have caliber plus neck lengths for this reason.

So what do we do? If the case gets to long, it will engage the rifling at the same time the bullet tries to giving us a wild & very dangerous pressure spike. If we hack it back to bare minimum we may have given room for a little loss of accuracy, especially with rough handling of ammo in the field. But we HAVE TO maintain consistency from case to case for shot to shot.

The answer is to measure the chamber neck length in your individual rifle and stay trimmed back from that actual number.)

 

[cruze5]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The answer is at the top of this Forum, if you take the time to read it you may get the answer, if not them ask the Question.
</div></div>


well I have read that. its funny how the last sentence says :


But we HAVE TO maintain consistency from case to case for shot to shot.

so that makes me think you should trim each of your brass the same length!

 

[doc76251]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

Gent's lets play nice....

The REASON you trim brass is so that it doesn't get long enough so that when you chamber it the brass doesn't get crimped by the chamber resulting in SERIOUS over pressure.

Trim brass for consistency? Sure why not.

What length to trim to? You will never KNOW the answer unless you measure YOUR rifle. Check Sinclair's for this

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=32925/Product/Sinclair-Chamber-Length-Gage

Then you will know the maximum amount of chamber you have and can trim to make sure you don't get there.

Personally I chop mine to 2.0" and load them until I am 0.03" from the stop. They get to grow QUITE a bit before I need to cut them again.

As always JMHO, YRMV etc....

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

OK; trimming to maintain consistency has to be kept within reason.

Personally, I would not base my trimming on the length of my shortest cases, but on the length of the longest. It's a 'no longer than' proposition, rather than an 'as short as' one. If they haven't all reached max, trim the ones that have, and wait for the others to get there. Keeping case lengths consistent should never be about perfection, but about staying within the limits.

You've been trimming to the wrong standard. I'm not sure what Min/Max length data limits you've been observing but my Sierra loading manuals have clear trim-to length data shown. That is the minimum advisable case length, and the length shown in the case diagram indicates the maximum advisable case length. For .308 the min/max are <span style="text-decoration: line-through">3.005"/3.015"</span>*** Edited to read 2.005"/2.015"***.

There's probably nothing wildly wrong with your cases right now except a possible issue with case neck sealing being compromised. But as a matter of safety protocal, I'd retire them now and chalk this up as a learning experience. No brass is so valuable that cost outweighs potential risk.

Otherwise go forth and sin no more.

One thing that drives me nuts about handloading questions is that folks are so literal and exacting. There are limits, they are defined, and staying within a range is the ideal and the norm, rather than anal obedience to maintaining precisely exact numbers.

Greg

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

"<span style="font-style: italic">Your reloading manual will give you the nominal "trim to length" measurement of a given cartridge case."</span>

Book "trim to" is normally ten thou under max length and it's just an arbitrary point, not a "specification".

Case lengths do need to be reasonally consistant for best accuracy but "precise" case length consistancy is meaningless, there are too many other things in play for accuracy for a rational few thou of case length variation to matter. But, each of us gets to decide what we want to consider critical for ourselves, whether it is or not.

Have fun but don't get so short your bullets fall out!

 

[turbo54]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK; trimming to maintain consistency has to be kept within reason.

Personally, I would not base my trimming on the length of my shortest cases, but on the length of the longest. It's a 'no longer than' proposition, rather than an 'as short as' one.

One thing that drives me nuts about handloading questions is that folks are so literal and exacting. There are limits, they are defined, and staying within a range is the ideal and the norm, rather than anal obedience to maintaining precisely exact numbers.

Greg </div></div>

Great post.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

I guess the motivation is that this guy believes all his cases must be the exact same length for accuracy....something like that? So, he trims every case to the length of his shortest case? That's fine and probably won't hurt anything, but there has to be another reason why he is left with cases that now measure; <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case length now measures 1.899-1.902.</div></div>

As has been pointed out, this probably is not dangerous, but it is focusing on something that is inconsequential in any meaningful way toward accuracy, if that is an objective?

As previously mentioned above, trimming to length should be done only to make sure to not exceed a maximum length, not uniformity around a "minimum" length. It's a result of reading a lot of random guidelines and then focusing on the least important. A "lost in translation" type of result. BB

edit: looks like the OLD FART ARMY is mobilized!

 

[FLIGHT762]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What length to trim to? You will never KNOW the answer unless you measure YOUR rifle. Check Sinclair's for this

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=32925/Product/Sinclair-Chamber-Length-Gage

Then you will know the maximum amount of chamber you have and can trim to make sure you don't get there.

Personally I chop mine to 2.0" and load them until I am 0.03" from the stop. They get to grow QUITE a bit before I need to cut them again.

</div></div>

This is the correct answer. Unless you use a chamber gauge to measure the length of your Rifle's chamber, you don't know the maximum length your brass can safely grow to.

I measured the chamber of two of my bolt 308's with the Sinclair gauge and discovered the chamber length was 2.845" on one and 2.840" on the other. All that time wasted worrying to be sure to trim under 2.015" was all for not.

Measure your chamber and go from there.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have competition dies that size within .002" so after a few firings they're inconsistent and I trim them to match the shortest length. It takes life out of the brass but loads are more accurate and the bolt doesn't stick.

Better equipment isn't in the budget right now so I work with what I have. </div></div>

Learn to use what you have. It's the Indian, not the arrow.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the over all length of the case grows and the mouth of the case typically thins.</div></div>

actually , my cases only grow from being sized. They shrink upon firing. Makes sense , the primer moves back, my gun moves back, so the cases are also "moving back."

I understand chambering a case that exceeds the chamber length of your gun will leave you with a crimped case. What I dont understand is how are you guys able to chamber a loaded case that exceeds your chamber length ? i can't shut the bolt on a loaded round that exceeds chamber length. Are you forcing it shut ? with a hammer ? Or are we talking about a case that is ~.001 longer then the chamber length ?

its important that all your cases lengths be the same if your neck turning or cutting your flasholes since most tools will index themselves from the case mouth. If your OAL's are different , the amount of brass you'll remove will be different, unless you adjust your tools for that. Which i doubt anyone does.

i dont think case mouth's being short could cause a dangerous situtation. It would probably just hurt accuracy alittle.

 

[aloreman]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

Hell i got a buddy who trims all his brass short shoots it till it hits max spec and throws it away

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This is the correct answer. Unless you use a chamber gauge to measure the length of your Rifle's chamber, you don't know the maximum length your brass can safely grow to.

I measured the chamber of two of my bolt 308's with the Sinclair gauge and discovered the chamber length was 2.845" on one and 2.840" on the other. All that time wasted worrying to be sure to trim under 2.015" was all for not.

Measure your chamber and go from there.</div></div>

Correct answer, I don't know, but you might be measuring freebore? BB

 

[FLIGHT762]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This is the correct answer. Unless you use a chamber gauge to measure the length of your Rifle's chamber, you don't know the maximum length your brass can safely grow to.

I measured the chamber of two of my bolt 308's with the Sinclair gauge and discovered the chamber length was 2.845" on one and 2.840" on the other. All that time wasted worrying to be sure to trim under 2.015" was all for not.

Measure your chamber and go from there.</div></div>

Correct answer, I don't know, but you might be measuring freebore? BB
</div></div>

I don't think it is freebore since one has a short Palma throat (2.840") and the other is a Remington factory chamber (2.845").

 

[Paladin2147]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

Buy a reloading manual and read it. There is more in one than just data. Learn the basics!

 

[Swift]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

Thanks for the insight Greg. I guess I've been looking at it the wrong way. I still got good life from the cases so I don't mind pitching em. Lesson learned and I'll carry it over to my other calibers.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

I don't have competition dies either. I manage to reload match grade ammo on standard Redding FL dies and standard seaters. I do have a competition seater for my 223.
I learned the basics long ago and use the Sinclair guage(good point Doc) on all my chambers so I know where I am and where I can go.
When I get my new cases (which isn't as often as you might think using FL dies) I will measure a few and trim them just enough to clean up and square the neck. After firing I check and if they look good I check them at every loading. If I find a few cases really out of spec...ie, wide margin from average growth,I set that case aside to wait for annealing.
Like has been said, I had a set screw get loose and wreak havoc for a few cases once, before I caught the problem.
Get a good trimmer and IF you need to trim take a light cut. A Lee trimmer is NOT a good trimmer, don't let anyone tell you different. They are not anyone you want loading advice from in this area of case prep.
For most of my ammo I don't trim unless I just annealed, about every 4th firing and again ONLY A LIGHT CUT, IF NEEDED. If your cases aren't growing and stayiong relatively consistent in length, then let them grow until .010" of that maximum you established with that wonderful little steel plug.
Trimming for extreme consistency is in my opinion pretty over rated for anything but benchrest.

 

[rusty815]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

I never trim cases unless they get past the maximum case length, I have found that having cases of different length are just about as accurate as having then the same length, so long as they aren't too long or too short. I use cases that vary in length anywhere from maximum length to .02" short of the maximum length and get great accuracy.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

"<span style="font-style: italic">A Lee trimmer is NOT a good trimmer, don't let anyone tell you different. They are not anyone you want loading advice from in this area of case prep."</span>

Two interesting statements presented as fact there; would you now be so kind as to justify it by telling those of us who think we get excellant service from Lee's simple little trimmers what we are missing? And perhaps give us who know little of that area of case prep your guidance on what IS "a good trimmer", and why?

Who knows, you may even be right .. but I doubt it.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"<span style="font-style: italic">A Lee trimmer is NOT a good trimmer, don't let anyone tell you different. They are not anyone you want loading advice from in this area of case prep."</span>

Two interesting statements presented as fact there; would you now be so kind as to justify it by telling those of us who think we get excellant service from Lee's simple little trimmers what we are missing? And perhaps give us who know little of that area of case prep your guidance on what IS "a good trimmer", and why?

Who knows, you may even be right .. but I doubt it.

</div></div>

The Lee indexes off the flashhole. If there is and inconsistency in the case head thickness then it will show up as cases being inconsistent in total length. If I put brass in a Forrester then it indexes from the actual case head giving a more consistent total length. Depending on the quality and consitency of your brass then your length could vary significantly. Using the case head as a reference point will give you more consistent total lengths.

If my assumptions are wrong, it is due to the users whom I have talked to and pinned down on this subject, who eventually capitulated, and admitted that the lengths are not consistent, but "close enough to suit me". If it suits your needs that is fine, but it is not a precision instrument like a Forrester or lathe type trimmer.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

"<span style="font-style: italic">The Lee indexes off the flashhole. </span>"

So, you spoke without any kind of personal experience on the tool you strongly disparaged, and also those who might suggest it's use?

Fact is, "The Lee" trimmer does NOT "index off the flash hole" in the manner you seem to presume; it indexes <span style="text-decoration: underline">through</span> the flash hole and <span style="text-decoration: underline">off the face of a solid steel stud</span> held firmly against the case head very much like what your Wilson does. If it'e done correctly the case lenghts are as consistant as any from a lathe type trimmer(done incorectly nothing's consistant). Thus, if there IS any length variation with that trimmer design it's due to user error, not the tool.


"<span style="font-style: italic">A Lee trimmer is NOT a good trimmer, don't let anyone tell you different. They are not anyone you want loading advice from in this area of case prep."</span>

It might be an over reach on my part but I would counter caution anyone to ignore those who give emphatic answers to un-asked questions and "advise" on case prep based on foolish hearsay error. YMMV.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

I stand corrected.
I am sure they work fine for the hobby reloader. They certainly have glowing reviews. They also have bottom of that barrel reviews listing such problems as inconsistent case length, dulling, poor machining, hand fatigue etc. I based my opinion on friends who own, use and love them. They have complained of all the maladies above....and they still love them. I call it the "Lee Syndrome": If it is cheap enough and works, even unsatifactorily, then it is great.
I have one Lee product I love. The Lee Auto Prime II its great, and I don't mind the tapping...because it is cheap.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

"They also have bottom of that barrel reviews listing such problems as inconsistent case length, dulling, poor machining,... I call it the "Lee Syndrome": If it is cheap enough and works, even unsatifactorily, then it is great."

It just might be that those "bottom of the barrel" reviews came from un-skilled users who may not be good candidates for using complex machinrery such as pliers. And you mignt be surprised at how many people love to "pile on" when they get a chance to grip about a tool rather than admit personal clumsyness! But you're the anti-"Lee Syndrome" expert, not me.

 

[rusty815]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

Can we stop the bickering about lee? Jeez, it seems that whenever a question about reloading equipment comes up, the Lee bashers come in.

I'm not going to say that all Lee equipment is great, but most are definitely good. I have in my possession, among other brands, two Lee presses, the Lee perfect powder measure, and the Lee scale. Using all of this equipment, I have loaded some of the most accurate loads I have ever made, the Lee Classic Cast turret press (with RCBS dies) load my rounds to the exact length every time, and its priming system and primer catching system is superb, which is all I can ask for this. I also have a Lee reloader press (the cheap aluminum C frame press) with a Lee decapping Die (the only Lee die I own, all others are RCBS and Redding), and this pair have decapped some 2000 cases now without a hiccup. The scale is repeatable and the powder measure throws close to whatever powder I want, if I'm a bit short I have a trickler (Lyman) to get the exact load I want. So lets stop with the Lee bashing and get on with what the op asked.

To answer the op, I believe that your cases are too short and you should toss them, and I will repeat the advice I have given above about only trimming when the cases exceed the maximum case length.

 

[Swift]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can we stop the bickering about lee? Jeez, it seems that whenever a question about reloading equipment comes up, the Lee bashers come in.

I'm not going to say that all Lee equipment is great, but most are definitely good. I have in my possession, among other brands, two Lee presses, the Lee perfect powder measure, and the Lee scale. Using all of this equipment, I have loaded some of the most accurate loads I have ever made, the Lee Classic Cast turret press (with RCBS dies) load my rounds to the exact length every time, and its priming system and primer catching system is superb, which is all I can ask for this. I also have a Lee reloader press (the cheap aluminum C frame press) with a Lee decapping Die (the only Lee die I own, all others are RCBS and Redding), and this pair have decapped some 2000 cases now without a hiccup. The scale is repeatable and the powder measure throws close to whatever powder I want, if I'm a bit short I have a trickler (Lyman) to get the exact load I want. So lets stop with the Lee bashing and get on with what the op asked.

To answer the op, I believe that your cases are too short and you should toss them, and I will repeat the advice I have given above about only trimming when the cases exceed the maximum case length. </div></div>

Thanks, Rusty. I never claimed to be an expert reloader so if I can take a lesson away from this despite the banter then I'm happy.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

I'm NOT bickering, I'm more like ROFLMAO!

I've been successfully doing this stuff for much too long and with a wide assortment of tools to still have any blind alligence to or animosity towards inanimate objects.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

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[BuzzBoss915]

Re: At what point do your cases become too short?

I am not overly impressed with Lee products. So, sue me. BB