ATF At It Again! Keep Your Eyes & Ears Open!

[Blutroop]

I’m obviously opposed to this unconstitutional crap but in a show of cooperation if the atf would allow everyone have full auto and any length, configuration by simply registering I would seriously consider it even knowing what always happens after registration.. a few years peace could be nice..

 

[darkfader]

I’m obviously opposed to this unconstitutional crap but in a show of cooperation if the atf would allow everyone have full auto and any length, configuration by simply registering I would seriously consider it even knowing what always happens after registration.. a few years peace could be nice..

This is basically where I am with this situation. And like E. Bryant, what if I want to throw a magnifier on there with my dot? It’s not worth the hassle at this point. I’m in a holding pattern for now, but very likely will just form 1 them. Actually already have the drafts saved and ready to submit on the efile page.

 

[IrishWind]

I only break laws when
1. They are in violation of Gods word or the constitution.

2. When I have a justifiable reason.

I’m glad you chose that example as I have more driver training through the mil and jobs than most Leo’s yet people are quick to say “public endangerment” without any acknowledgement of how much public endangerment is committed by Leo. I’ve seen the aftermath and read a few court cases. I’ve driven most of the most dangerous roads in America including my first years of driving being on a motorcycle down I-45. I’ve even rolled code. I know Ice road truckers and often deal with shitty whiteout conditions now.

I get the impression your prior Leo. If you want to have a rational discussion I’m game. If you just want to sling mud, go look for another huckleberry.

And where exactly is the part in the constitution making it a crime to be a smartass?? Or even a city ordnance? Something written in black and white? A bunch of atf letters?

Everyone on here knows fully what happens to smartasses, lots from first hand experience from one view point or the other. My question for you is when (no longer if) a Leo is violating your rights and a Leo sees it and does nothing, is he just as guilty of the crime?

And for every other Leo out there, I’m not your enemy yet. I’ve made my positions pretty clear over the years by my inability to hold my tongue on forums. And I do know Leo’s personally. I shouldn’t have to be the one to say it but the writings on the wall. Time is running out to decide if your for we the people and the constitution, or if yer a yes man putting your pension before your country, constitution, and we the people.
Talk to the old Leo’s that have retired if you need to hear it from brethren. We the people need every constitution supporting person we can get.

Wow. Rational. From you? Bwahahahahaha. DO you talk to God and does he talk to you? And who are you to determine what is Constitutional and what isn't. Last time I checked, the US Constitution said that belongs to the US Supreme Court. But glad you feel you can violate laws that you don't like. Sounds like a Democrat to me.

But it is clear you are not an LEO, and you have never part of the US Military. But I did find a photo of you on the net:

 

[Blutroop]

Wow. Rational. From you? Bwahahahahaha. DO you talk to God and does he talk to you? And who are you to determine what is Constitutional and what isn't. Last time I checked, the US Constitution said that belongs to the US Supreme Court. But glad you feel you can violate laws that you don't like. Sounds like a Democrat to me.

But it is clear you are not an LEO, and you have never part of the US Military. But I did find a photo of you on the net:
View attachment 7505300

Yes I talk to God and yes he talks back. Are you gonna pull a woopie and say anyone that says they hear from God shouldn’t have guns??

We the people are the final say even over the Supreme Court.

And my 11bravo ass could care less what you think. You obviously support gov overreach over the constitution.

If your not for we the people your against we the people.

And when Gov don’t follow the laws they enforce I no longer follow gov

You might soon have the privilege of being the first person to be idiotic enough to be ignored by me.

 

[mtopham]

The ATF letter just dropped and is open for public comment.

Federal Register :: Request Access

 

[6.5SH]

 

[LRRPF52]

The ATF letter just dropped and is open for public comment.

Federal Register :: Request Access

They’re retards. Whoever wrote those guidelines is asking for an attorney to shoot them down easily.

FATD supports the firearms industry and the general public by, among other things, responding to technical inquiries, and by testing and evaluating firearms submitted to ATF for classification as to their regulation under the GCA and/or NFA. There is no requirement that the firearms industry or the public submit firearms to ATF for assessment of the firearm's proper classification.

• Type and Caliber. The type and caliber of firearm to which the stabilizing brace or similar item is installed. A large caliber firearm that is impractical to fire with one hand because of recoil or other factors, even with an arm brace, is likely to be considered a rifle or shotgun.
• Weight and Length. The weight and length of the firearm used with the stabilizing brace. A firearm that is so heavy that it is impractical to fire or aim with one hand, or so long that it is difficult to balance the firearm to fire with one hand, is likely to be considered a rifle or shotgun.
• 
  
  
• 
  Length of Pull. The “length of pull” refers to the distance from the trigger to the point at which a stock meets the shoulder. This is a measurement for rifles and shotguns used to accommodate shooters of different sizes. Because an arm brace need only reach the forearm, the distance between the trigger and the back of the brace is generally expected to be shorter than the distance between the trigger and the back of a stock on a weapon designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder. This measurement is not necessarily determinative of the intent of the manufacturer but is used in making an evaluation of the firearm. If a brace is of a length that makes it impractical to attach to the shooter's wrist or forearm, then that may demonstrate that it is not designed as brace but rather for shoulder fire.
• Attachment Method. The method of attachment of the stabilizing brace, to include modified stock attachments, extended receiver extensions, and the use of spacers. These items extend the distance between the trigger and the part of the weapon that contacts the shooter, whether it is a stock or stabilizing brace. Use of these items indicates that the weapon is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder because they extend a stabilizing brace beyond a point that is useful for something other than shoulder support.
• Stabilizing Brace Design Features. The objective design features of the attached stabilizing brace itself are relevant to the classification of the assembled weapon, and include:

The comparative function of the attachment when utilized as a stabilizing brace compared to its alternate use as a shouldering device;

○ The design of the stabilizing brace compared to known shoulder stock designs;

○ The amount of rear contact surface area of the stabilizing brace that can be used in shouldering the weapon as compared to the surface area necessary for use as a stabilizing brace;

○ The material used to make the attachment that indicates whether the brace is designed and intended to be pressed against the shoulder for support, or actually used on the arm;

○ Any shared or interchangeable parts with known shoulder stocks; and

○ Any other feature of the brace that improves the weapon's effectiveness from the shoulder-firing position without providing a corresponding benefit to the effectiveness of the stability and support provided by the brace's use on the arm.

• Aim Point. Appropriate aim point when utilizing the attachment as a stabilizing brace. If the aim point when using the arm brace attachment results in an upward or downward trajectory that could not accurately hit a target, this may indicate the attachment was not designed as a stabilizing brace.
• Secondary Grip. The presence of a secondary grip may indicate that the weapon is not a “pistol” because it is not designed to be held and fired by one hand.
• Sights and Scopes. Incorporation of sights or scopes that possess eye relief incompatible with one-handed firing may indicate that the weapon is not a “pistol” because they are designed to be used from a shoulder-fire position and are incompatible for the single-handed shooting that arm braces are designed and intended.

• 
  Peripheral Accessories. Installation of peripheral accessories commonly found on rifles or shotguns that may indicate that the firearm is not designed and intended to be held and fired with one hand. This includes, but is not limited to, the installation of bipods/monopods that improve the accuracy of heavy weapons designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder; or the inclusion of a magazine or drum that accepts so many cartridges that it increases the overall weight of the firearm to a degree that it is impractical to fire the weapon with one hand even with the assistance of a stabilizing brace.

These factors are based on known stabilizing braces and similar attachments. No single factor or combination of factors is necessarily dispositive, and FATD examines each weapon holistically on a case-by-case basis.

 

[LRRPF52]

Let’s just make it easy and see what the supreme law of the land is on this, the US Constitution:

 

[LRRPF52]

Here’s another gem from that garbage:

ATF will not consider, or respond to, comments that do not meet these requirements or comments containing excessive profanity. Comments that do not meet these criteria will not be considered.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

I don't think that "Go Fuck Yourself" is excess profanity

Here’s another gem from that garbage:

ATF will not consider, or respond to, comments that do not meet these requirements or comments containing excessive profanity. Comments that do not meet these criteria will not be considered.

 

[Memberberries]

We should be flooding them with disapproving comments that follow all their rules so we can't be ignored. Check your emotions at the door and make your voices legitimate.

 

[deersniper]

you? And who are you to determine what is Constitutional and what isn't.

The same Supreme Court that said slavery was legal?
Or that Obama care was a tax or a fine dee ding on what was being argued.
The one that didn’t take up any voter fraud cases tbis year?


You’re a nitwit

 

[Blutroop]

And to think, in the 80’s when I was born men were treated like real men that could actually drive around drinking beer legally. What was the atf doing then?

 

[Longshot231]

The same Supreme Court that said slavery was legal?
Or that Obama care was a tax or a fine dee ding on what was being argued.
The one that didn’t take up any voter fraud cases tbis year?

They also said it was okay to kill babies, that men can marry men as well as women can marry other women. They've refused to hear a ton of 2A cases except for Heller and MacDonald.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Yeah, because they totally weren't discouraged by the "Shall Not Be Infringed" part of the COTUS. The founders should have included a included a penalty for infringement. Possibly something along the lines of being skinned alive and tossed into the ocean.

We should be flooding them with disapproving comments that follow all their rules so we can't be ignored. Check your emotions at the door and make your voices legitimate.

Edit to ask.
How has the being nice worked to stop their agenda of total disarming?

 

[deersniper]

Edit to ask.
How has the being nice worked to stop their agenda of total disarming?

Yup. They aren’t scared of the law abiding dockers crowd

They are scared of the antifa faggots. I’m not going to advocate rioting or harassing them at their houses etc

 

[Memberberries]

Edit to ask.
How has the being nice worked to stop their agenda of total disarming?

Rigged or not, you always lose the game if you're sitting on the bench. I'm not hell bent on becoming a martyr like so many say they are on the internet.

 

[rlsmith1]

Do all we can to push back on this within the processes we currently have. Even if that means a 2 week response period over both Christmas and New Years. Below is the response I wrote, please feel free to copy / paste / modify!

Hello,

This proposed letter is frankly, outrageous. It would make hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of American citizens felons overnight. Sure, there is a way to register everything, but that is exactly the point. I do not see the benefit of any registry for any type of firearm. This is chipping away at American's freedom with the promise of peace. As an American citizen, I would much rather have dangerous freedom than peaceful slavery. There are already many countries with more restrictive gun laws, and they still have violence in their societies. The second amendment simply says my right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. This is not complicated and any restrictive gun rights are a direct infringement in my opinion.

Please do not choose to go down this road of changing the enforcement of laws for no apparent reason. When every American bought their brace, they were doing all they could to comply with already burdensome laws. Additionally, the hard thing is, we don't even vote for ATF directors, agents and employees so we do not have a voice in how this agency is run.

Thank you for your consideration,

An American Citizen

 

[LRRPF52]

And to think, in the 80’s when I was born men were treated like real men that could actually drive around drinking beer legally. What was the atf doing then?

Getting DUIs after crashing Government-Owned Vehicles, then getting promoted, on their way to Good Ol Boy rallies with the rest of their regional office?

After a hard year's work shooting White Separatist women in the head and blowing wacky religious zealots to kingdom come, the boys down at the BATF like to get together in Polk County Tennessee for a little old-fashioned redneck R&R.

"The Good Ole Boys Roundup" -- a weekend of picnics, volleyball, rafting and beer-drinking -- has been an annual spring event in the southeastern corner of Tennessee since 1980. Attendance is apparently open to ATF agents, members of the FBI, other law enforcement officers, the IRS, the Customs Service, the Secret Service, even Canada's RCMP -- as long as they're white. Fun-seekers are greeted at the entrance by a “ni*ger Checkpoint" while another hand-lettered sign nailed to a tree asks, "Any Ni*gers in that Car?"

Racist paraphernalia to rival any at the largest KKK rally, is readily available. On sale are such items as T-shirts bearing the likeness of Martin Luther King in the crosshairs of a rifle scope, emblazoned with the slogan, "Our Dream Came True." Another shirt features O.J. Simpson with a hangman's noose around his neck, while yet another depicts white police officers with a black man spread-eagled across the hood of their patrol car and a caption reading "Boyz on the Hood." And for those wanting to indulge in a little sportsmanlike shooting, fake "Federal Ni**er Hunting Licenses" can be purchased onsite.

The overtly racist get-together came to light when Jeff Randall, a member of Gadsden Minutemen, a militia group known to be hostile to ATF, infiltrated the gathering and blew the whistle on the event. Randall welcomed the bad publicity his expos touched off in Washington, where Federal officials were quick to respond.

Ronald Noble, Assistant Treasury Secretary stated, "I utterly condemn any of my agents, or any federal law enforcement or state or local law enforcement officers being involved in a racist organization, or having T-shirts that say `KIll Ni**ers.'" John Magaw, director of BATF, in an ongoing effort to root out racism, echoed his sentiments. "I will come with very strong discipline, and I will seek it out and destroy it," he told CNN.


You can read the findings from the OIG Report here.

What’s that? You think that was just old times in the 1980s? Seattle-based ATF agent wins $450,000 lawsuit against Nazi ATF RAC of Eugene, OR ATF Office, Sep, 2020.

The lawsuit alleges the agency has repeatedly failed to discipline Devlin or rein in his racist behavior, setting up a situation where Devlin felt he could lash out at Bishop again after the first lawsuit had settled. The lawsuit names ATF as an agency, the Department of Justice and Attorney General William Barr as defendants.

“The Government’s repeated failure to discipline its employees for violating the law, unsurprisingly, leaves them to feeling free to do so again and again,” said Bishop’s Seattle lawyer, Jesse Wing. “The Agency’s behavior, shrugging off continued defiant acts of race harassment and retaliation committed by a known racist supervisor in its ranks, reflects the need for fundamental change at ATF.”

This is one of the things FBI Director Sessions actually tried to cease within the FBI as well, and enough of the good old boys hated him for it to conspire with the Clintons to get him fired for literally nothing, other than allowing 14 different major criminal referrals to move forward against the Clintons within the first 6 months of the Clinton WH.

If the people knew how bad ATF actually was, and what an utterly corrupt and brazenly-criminal organization it is, there would be consequences. Congress doesn’t care, obviously, and senior ATF agents who have led careers of nothing but misconduct not only get promoted, but are allowed to spend years not even showing up for work while they go on extended vacations on the taxpayer’s dime, and even double-dip with 6-figure jobs in the private sector.

The less-offensive SACs and ASAICs occasionally show up to the regional office, bang a few coworkers or their spouses, then pop-out for vacations of their own. Their underlings write their own performance evaluations in the absence of the SACs/ASAICs, and the culture of abuse trickles down the hill to actual Special Agents trying to do their jobs in redundant cases that the local LE could handle just fine on their own. Morale in ATF is one of the lowest in all Federal LE.

But by golly, they sure should be listened to and obeyed when they issue proclamations about what furniture you put on your pistol! You must respect dat authoriTAY! Checks Constitution....nope

 

[deersniper]

Getting DUIs after crashing Government-Owned Vehicles, then getting promoted, on their way to Good Ol Boy rallies with the rest of their regional office?

After a hard year's work shooting White Separatist women in the head and blowing wacky religious zealots to kingdom come, the boys down at the BATF like to get together in Polk County Tennessee for a little old-fashioned redneck R&R.

"The Good Ole Boys Roundup" -- a weekend of picnics, volleyball, rafting and beer-drinking -- has been an annual spring event in the southeastern corner of Tennessee since 1980. Attendance is apparently open to ATF agents, members of the FBI, other law enforcement officers, the IRS, the Customs Service, the Secret Service, even Canada's RCMP -- as long as they're white. Fun-seekers are greeted at the entrance by a “ni*ger Checkpoint" while another hand-lettered sign nailed to a tree asks, "Any Ni*gers in that Car?"

Racist paraphernalia to rival any at the largest KKK rally, is readily available. On sale are such items as T-shirts bearing the likeness of Martin Luther King in the crosshairs of a rifle scope, emblazoned with the slogan, "Our Dream Came True." Another shirt features O.J. Simpson with a hangman's noose around his neck, while yet another depicts white police officers with a black man spread-eagled across the hood of their patrol car and a caption reading "Boyz on the Hood." And for those wanting to indulge in a little sportsmanlike shooting, fake "Federal Ni**er Hunting Licenses" can be purchased onsite.

The overtly racist get-together came to light when Jeff Randall, a member of Gadsden Minutemen, a militia group known to be hostile to ATF, infiltrated the gathering and blew the whistle on the event. Randall welcomed the bad publicity his expos touched off in Washington, where Federal officials were quick to respond.

Ronald Noble, Assistant Treasury Secretary stated, "I utterly condemn any of my agents, or any federal law enforcement or state or local law enforcement officers being involved in a racist organization, or having T-shirts that say `KIll Ni**ers.'" John Magaw, director of BATF, in an ongoing effort to root out racism, echoed his sentiments. "I will come with very strong discipline, and I will seek it out and destroy it," he told CNN.


You can read the findings from the OIG Report here.

This is one of the things FBI Director Sessions actually tried to cease within the FBI as well, and enough of the good old boys hated him for it to conspire with the Clintons to get him fired for literally nothing, other than allowing 14 different major criminal referrals to move forward against the Clintons within the first 6 months of the Clinton WH.

If the people knew how bad ATF actually was, and what an utterly corrupt and brazenly-criminal organization it is, there would be consequences. Congress doesn’t care, obviously, and senior ATF agents who have led careers of nothing but misconduct not only get promoted, but are allowed to spend years not even showing up for work while they go on extended vacations on the taxpayer’s dime, and even double-dip with 6-figure jobs in the private sector.

The less-offensive SACs and ASAICs occasionally show up to the regional office, bang a few coworkers or their spouses, then pop-out for vacations of their own. Their underlings write their own performance evaluations in the absence of the SACs/ASAICs, and the culture of abuse trickles down the hill to actual Special Agents trying to do their jobs in redundant cases that the local LE could handle just fine on their own. Morale in ATF is one of the lowest in all Federal LE.

But by golly, they sure should be listened to and obeyed when they issue proclamations about what furniture you put on your pistol! You must respect dat authoriTAY! Checks Constitution....nope

You’re just a cop hater.

 

[mtopham]

This might be worth a few minutes to view.

 

[LRRPF52]

Send strongly-worded messages to an unconstitutional agency tasked with violating the Bill of Rights?

Nah, I’ll just contact my State representatives who also own firearms and understand the big picture.

 

[rlsmith1]

Why not both?

 

[redbullitt]

Maybe we could make crafts from scrapped casings, bump stocks, and braces to send to the Atf. Then they have to fill up their trash and deal with them lol. Way harder to shred and or ignore handmade wind chimes and holiday ornaments. I'm sure you guys can come up with some real gems.

 

[Nimothy]

Send strongly-worded messages to an unconstitutional agency tasked with violating the Bill of Rights?

Nah, I’ll just contact my State representatives who also own firearms and understand the big picture.

You know they won’t be able to do a damn thing about it. They’ll soon have a president that will support them publicly. (trump’s lack of intervention here shows his support)and you have to give it to that horrible fuckin bitch pelosi, she keeps her majority of the house in line, that evil fuckin cunt knows how to crack a whip. Don’t even get me started on our “conservative republican” senate, outside of uncle teddy cruz, Matt gaetz, and rand Paul (who needs to literally beat the fuck out of Mitch McConnell for being a huge pussy) you know damn well they won’t stand up for us gun owners. these stupid open forum letters are just a farce to make us feel warm and fuzzy. face the facts here gents, we are all about to be felons. But in the words Bubba sparks don’t worry about the law, they can’t arrest us all.

 

[Lawless]

Few observations:

There is no "pistol" possible in the NFA. It will either have to be a SBR or an AOW. A new category could be created but that will take a change in written law.

There is much more to the differences in "pistol vs. "SBR" than a brace vs. stock or simply not having a stock at all. Yes it seems that it is vague and not well defined but a 20" AR wearing a rifle scope and forward grip with the stock removed isn't a pistol regardless of what has been allowed to slide in the past. OAL, weight, accessories all play a part. It has and is part of the law, vague though it is.

The ATF is currently rewriting the definition of a pistol as when it was written originally, long gun based pistols were a rarity.

It is possible that this is a fishing exercise but it is also possible that it is an attempt to fix the retarded mess this has all become over the last several years.

I do not believe that any guns should be regulated at all but they are and this is where we are. I'm not being an apologist for the ATF and am not kneeling, cucking or bowing (or any other BS name calling stupidity)

Those who have SBRs which are otherwise definable as a pistol can simply remove the stock and put on a brace and be good, just as if it were not a SBR. This takes care of those wanting to travel with it (if not in the configuration which makes it a SBR it is not a SBR). Those who do not want to register, in whatever guise it is offered, can use their brace just as before providing the rest of the gun meets the admittedly sketchy definition of a pistol. As already stated this definition is being clarified.

Until the details are made available, all of this arguing based on guesses is really a waste of time. Once the rest is known, each person can decide what to do.

 

[rlsmith1]

@Nimothy I agree with you 100% BUT right now there is a peaceful process to make our voice known before something like this happens. If the ATF receives thousands or even millions of people pushing back on this and continue down this path, then they should know what they are in for. In my mind, not making my voice known when they are asking for it (when there is a chance they listen, no matter how small the chance) means I should absolutely say something. If I don't say anything (to the ATF, representatives, etc.) then why should I be upset when the enforcement changes? I haven't done anything to push back on it other than be upset in my room and say some things on the internet.

BTW, do I really think they are open to comments and going to listen to anything we say? No I don't, but it's a box to check for them and should be for us too if conflict is going to be escalated because of this.

And whoever said it's time for a third party, I think that really would help the situation.

 

[earthquake]

How many deaths in this country have been directly attributed to an AR pistol brace? I'll wait.......

 

[TexPatriot]

I’m just about to the point of filing form1’s for my pistols and disassemble them until they clear. Tired of this bullshit. At this point I’m not willing to get hemmed up for something as stupid as this.

I'm going to ask the obvious question here. Won't that put you on their short list for confiscation, the reason the government wants registration and why many opted for a pistol brace vs. registering an SBR in the first place?

And hear me now and believe me later, when the ATF comes knocking after you ignore their 'buyback' letter signed buy Beto O'rourke to surrender your SBR peacefully, they're not going to stop at just stealing your SBRs. They are going to clean out your gun safe along with your ammo fort since you won't be needing that anymore anyway and tear up your house looking for others as you sit handcuffed on your couch.

 

[Rerun7]

 

[Ric O'shay]

^^Yup

 

[darkfader]

I'm going to ask the obvious question here. Won't that put you on their short list for confiscation, the reason the government wants registration and why many opted for a pistol brace vs. registering an SBR in the first place?

And hear me now and believe me later, when the ATF comes knocking after you ignore their 'buyback' letter signed buy Beto O'rourke to surrender your SBR peacefully, they're not going to stop at just stealing your SBRs. They are going to clean out your gun safe along with your ammo fort since you won't be needing that anymore anyway and tear up your house looking for others as you sit handcuffed on your couch.

View attachment 7507889

^^Yup

Yes you are right. I have changed my stance on things since I posted that. I am regretting submitting a form1 for a suppressor at this point. I fear they will be stopping by at some point because of that, even when I have followed the law. Damn.

 

[earthquake]

I submitted my comments/thoughts in the eFile portal. Will wait to see what happens. I read somewhere that this sort of thing was successful when ATF was trying to regulate/ban M855 green tip so, write them comments, ladies & gents!!

 

[Nimothy]

I submitted my comments/thoughts in the eFile portal. Will wait to see what happens. I read somewhere that this sort of thing was successful when ATF was trying to regulate/ban M855 green tip so, write them comments, ladies & gents!!

Do they ask for personal info?

 

[Ric O'shay]

^^Yup

 

[Memberberries]

Yes you are right. I have changed my stance on things since I posted that. I am regretting submitting a form1 for a suppressor at this point. I fear they will be stopping by at some point because of that, even when I have followed the law. Damn.

When that time comes, a lot of us are already hosed. Suppressors have really taken off in the last couple of years and more people have tax stamps every day. I think the HPA could have passed if they would drop the refund part and just deregulated cans moving forward. The people who insisted on bloating it did so knowing it would be the death of the bill.

Being quiet is a common courtesy to the neighbors and it's better for public health and wildlife.

Sorry for the suppressor tangent but tax stamps are all the same. Big brother keeping tabs on us and taxing our constitutional rights.

 

[Rlandry]

I don't own anything with a pistol brace, so don't have a dog in this hunt, but someone please explain why adding a brace does not turn the firearm into a SBR.

 

[rlsmith1]

Do they ask for personal info?

They ask for it but it let me submit without giving it. However, without a VPN they'll have your IP address

 

[BullGear]

Isn't it odd that just 3 short years ago, we were hoping that suppressors would be taken off the NFA list? This after being assured by the ATF that bump stops were perfectly legal and braces were safe because no one could prove intent.

My how the world has changed.

 

[Memberberries]

I don't own anything with a pistol brace, so don't have a dog in this hunt, but someone please explain why adding a brace does not turn the firearm into a SBR.

Because it's a "pistol" brace and the atf said so. Everyone's less upset with the fact that pistol braces themselves are being restricted and more upset that the atf made multiple determination letters that said pistol braces do not constitute an sbr but now they have decided to change their stance. There have been no laws on the topic so the atf has been able to just do whatever they want and that's the problem.

There is a lack of transparency and the ATF has a lack of oversight. They are also not under the control of an elected official but rather they do what they want.

 

[Blutroop]

I'm going to ask the obvious question here. Won't that put you on their short list for confiscation, the reason the government wants registration and why many opted for a pistol brace vs. registering an SBR in the first place?


And hear me now and believe me later, when the ATF comes knocking after you ignore their 'buyback' letter signed buy Beto O'rourke to surrender your SBR peacefully, they're not going to stop at just stealing your SBRs. They are going to clean out your gun safe along with your ammo fort since you won't be needing that anymore anyway and tear up your house looking for others as you sit handcuffed on your couch.

You assume people are still gonna open the door for atf.
Mine will have to be kicked. How many surprises are in store for those foolish enough to kick in a door of someone who actually knows what a fatal funnel is?

Might just call Leo either first or after to clean up the mess depending on my mood as I am in a ao were state law clearly establishes any fed confiscation as illegal.

What I won’t be is depending on anyone else to give back my rights.. I hope they bring me some tacticool tools though. The type only people with a gov spend account buy.

 

[Blutroop]

I don't own anything with a pistol brace, so don't have a dog in this hunt, but someone please explain why adding a brace does not turn the firearm into a SBR.

Please explain how the atf is constitutional? Or how they became writers and enforcers of law that isn’t?

 

[Ric O'shay]

The no brace no dog in the hunt mentality is utter bullshit.

 

[earthquake]

Do they ask for personal info?

No, you have a choice to enter your info or submit anonymously.
Here is the link I used:

https://beta.regulations.gov/document/ATF-2020-0001-0001

 

[TexPatriot]

Ask this guy about registering your firearm.

The cops that raided his house and didn't find anything but the lower he tried to register with them were 'just trying to help him out.'



He should have called the Cali. Governor to report there were more than ten people gathering in one house.

 

[Longshot231]

So I'm sort of curious. This thread has gone on a while now. What does everyone think the response, fallout, reaction and/or consequences will be if the ATF follows through on this latest move to ban/regulate arm braces?

I don't really want to know what you gentlemen on this forum will do. And, as you hopefully realize by now, I am not a troll.

I'm interested in what everyone here thinks the average guy with a braced pistol will do? Will he comply, disobey or get mad as hell and start writing his congress-critter. Or will he do something else?

Again, I'm not interested on what everyone here will do but what you all think about how John Q. Gunowner will respond.

 

[Memberberries]

So I'm sort of curious. This thread has gone on a while now. What does everyone think the response, fallout, reaction and/or consequences will be if the ATF follows through on this latest move to ban/regulate arm braces?

I don't really want to know what you gentlemen on this forum will do. And, as you hopefully realize by now, I am not a troll.

I'm interested in what everyone here thinks the average guy with a braced pistol will do? Will he comply, disobey or get mad as hell and start writing his congress-critter. Or will he do something else?

Again, I'm not interested on what everyone here will do but what you all think about how John Q. Gunowner will respond.

I'm going to probably register for a free tax stamp and then put a stock on my sbr and configure my pistol brace on a pistol that explicitly complies.

My coworkers have said they will not surrender or destroy their braces, they will not register them, and they will not open their doors for the ATF. I think this will be a quite common approach for those who do not currently have any registered nfa items and are scared to register.

 

[wigwamitus]

Here's what I wrote (files as a response to the ATF writing)

==
Agency/Docket Number:
Docket No. 2020R-10
Document Number:
2020-27857

Greetings:

This writing is in response to the above referenced document promulgated by BATFE on 12/18/20202.

1 - My interest in this matter is as a civic duty only. I do not own any of the "stabilizing braces" referenced by the above referenced document. All of my short barreled rifles are registered.

2 - Is there any such thing as an "AR-Pistol" ?
If the answer was NO, this whole issue would be simple. That the answer is not NO, has made the issue complex.

3 - Consent of the governed.
Per the Declaration of Independence, "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". I believe it is still important today, that all government agencies retain this maxim and present the attitude of "public servants".

4 - Should the ATF "change" their determinations about the classification of various types of "firearms" due to political pressure ?
I note that in the case of bump fire stocks,

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2018-12-26/pdf/2018-27763.pdf

It was stated that the President had announced the ATF was changing their rules and had been directed to use all available resources to do so. This sounds like political pressure.
In the the bump fire stock case, the word "clarification" is used many times. This could make some persons think the ATF is avoiding saying they are "CHANGING" the definition, yet clearly they are. And it is even clearly stated that the ATF has the power to "reconsider and rectify" (aka CHANGE). In this writers opinion, such changes are fine, PROVIDED they are supported by a body of new evidence, justifying the reclassification. They should be called CHANGES, since there is nothing wrong with CHANGES, provided that are supported by a body of new evidence.
As an analogy, in my lifetime, Dinosaurs were first classified as cold-blooded reptiles. Based on new evidence, scientists have reclassified many dinosaurs as warm blooded creatures and grouped birds with dinosaurs. The NEW evidence supported this change in classification;
In the case of bump stocks, it was also the case, that new evidence regarding the danger of bump stocks existed, to wit the LV shooting.
The above referenced ATF document 2020-27857 does not present new evidence supporting the reclassification of pistol braces or evidence of increased danger.

5 - Can the ATF tell us we cannot place the pistol grips of our Glocks up against our shoulders and fire them in that way ? No one shoots a Glock in this way to my knowledge, but does the ATF tell us that we cannot ?

6 - Can the ATF tell us we cannot use a two hand grip when shooting our Glocks and fire them in that way ? Most people use a two handed grip when shooting pistols, this is what is taught. Why is two handed grip ok for some pistols and not others?

So #6 and #7 get back to point #2 above. Is there any such thing as an AR Pistol ? If there is, then why is an AR Pistol any different from a Glock pistol? Why does the ATF care about "intent" with regard to some pistols and not others ?

8 - Response period.
For bump stocks, we were given a 90 day response period. For pistol braces we are given a 14 day response period, which overlaps on top of the primary holiday season of the year. This raises questions about the integrity of the process. Why was this done ??

Thanks for the opportunity to respond.

==
I will also sent to senators and rep.

 

[Doc68]

Trust me, I hate the thought of being on a registry, but at this point I’m in the system, especially when they finally get around to finalizing my suppressor form1.

Registering my AR pistols just means I can put a real stock on there, and shoulder the damn thing whenever I want while remaining lawful. I’ll be damned if I’m losing my gun rights and everything else over a hundred dollar chunk of plastic.

And why would you want them to k ow exactly what you have all in their database.

I hope you dont piss off someone and you get red flagged because of it.....

You sound like a person who would line up for this new vaccine also.

What part of "shall not infringe " is so hard to understand.

Doc

 

[E. Bryant]

So I'm sort of curious. This thread has gone on a while now. What does everyone think the response, fallout, reaction and/or consequences will be if the ATF follows through on this latest move to ban/regulate arm braces?

I don't really want to know what you gentlemen on this forum will do. And, as you hopefully realize by now, I am not a troll.

I'm interested in what everyone here thinks the average guy with a braced pistol will do? Will he comply, disobey or get mad as hell and start writing his congress-critter. Or will he do something else?

Again, I'm not interested on what everyone here will do but what you all think about how John Q. Gunowner will respond.

If there are indeed millions of these things in circulation (per SB Tactical's claims), then I'm gonna imagine that there will be millions that go unregistered because there are a whole lotta casual gun owners in a population of that size. Most won't know anything happened; some will get a rude surprise during a traffic stop several years from now. NFA violations are generally rare among generally law-abiding citizens, so we probably won't hear about prosecutions on a regular basis. That point notwithstanding, millions of new felons will be created.

The serious gun guys in NFA-friendly states likely already have one or more tax stamps and so a few more ain't gonna change their situation; they're already "on a list". That covers a bunch of folks on this forum and many of the talking heads on YouTube (who, by the way, should understand that it's ineffective to lecture us on the evils of NFA registration when their greatest-hits collection consists mostly of their NFA range toys). Many of those who haven't already dipped a toe into the Class III world will start climbing the learning curve of gun trusts, eForms applications, etc. It'll be a fun way to pass the time this winter.

Then there are the serious/well-informed gun owners in NFA-unfriendly states who perhaps bought a braced pistol because it was illegal to possess an SBR or SBS in their state. They are in a sticky situation, and I won't speculate on their potential response.

In the end, it really comes down to a handful of potential responses:

1) Ignorant non-compliance
2) Deliberate non-compliance
3) Comply to the extent that one believes necessary to satisfy the ATF's "objective criteria"