Gunsmithing Barrel recoppering

[Near miss]

Hi,

I bought a used 5.56 gun (1500 rnds thru) and after brief inspection and shooting 1-200 rounds through it I figured I clean it throughly to see what is up with the barrel.
During cleaning process I could feel my brush had a lot more friction near the chamber. The reason were copper bits that had sharp edges to them

But I continued and really cleaned and borescoped it and it showed me that the barrel inside was chipping after the chamber.
Few images of the ragged copper bits:

Video of the cleaned bore:

MR223 Cleaned throughoutly.mp4

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1drv.ms

I now have total understanding of the gun's condition but I wonder..

How should I go about to re-copper the gun? Is there any preferred rhytm to best get an even copper fouling? Because the previous copper deposit was not smooth at all.

I have a feeling I am overthinking this but I would like to get the barrel conditions the best I can.
Should I just go as I tend to and just blast few mags for starters?

 

[JeffLebowski]

Death by borescope. Overthinking. Go shoot.

 

[isofahunter]

As long as the gun is meeting your accuracy expectations, load and shoot. Cooper is going to deposit as it wishes.

 

[Near miss]

Death by borescope. Overthinking. Go shoot.

I normally use borescope and I do not have a habit of cleaning it until it shows clean. But I clearly noticed the copper gripping the cleaning brush. And it got me wondering, I have not noticed that in other guns I have cleaned.

I also wanted to get a good documentation of the barrels condition before starting to run it.

As long as the gun is meeting your accuracy expectations, load and shoot. Cooper is going to deposit as it wishes.

I have not really tested its accuracy yet, waiting for a can to arrive so I can conduct the tests with it on.
But I want to get it reasonably coppered before starting the testing because that will be the standard condition of the barrel.

Just want to as thorough coppering as possible and started thinking if hot or cold barrel was better for it.

Going plinking today and just wondered if there are any tips to coppering, but it is as you said, copper will decide where it goes.

 

[KYAggie]

Give this method a try and since you have a borescope, please do us all a favor and record and report your findings as your round count goes up. I’m doing this on my hunting rifles, but I don’t have a bore scope.

Breaking-In my New Rifle. Another Conundrum Answered.

I spent the better portion of this past Saturday with my father-in-law (another former Infantryman) at a family friend's ranch in the b...

theclaymore5150.blogspot.com

 

[Dthomas3523]

Give this method a try and since you have a borescope, please do us all a favor and record and report your findings as your round count goes up. I’m doing this on my hunting rifles, but I don’t have a bore scope.

Breaking-In my New Rifle. Another Conundrum Answered.

I spent the better portion of this past Saturday with my father-in-law (another former Infantryman) at a family friend's ranch in the b...

theclaymore5150.blogspot.com

Terrible article. He goes on about break in and then says not to clean barrel until he sees things open up. And just attempts to mix in buzz words to sound smart.

Here’s a clue about all these “procedures”.......

Has anyone ever said “i ruined my barrel by not breaking it in” or “my method didn’t work”? No......everyone’s method always works.

Anytime something always works, that means it never works and doesn’t matter. If it mattered, you would have methods and techniques out there that didn’t work or harmed the barrel.

 

[Near miss]

Terrible article. He goes on about break in and then says not to clean barrel until he sees things open up. And just attempts to mix in buzz words to sound smart.

Here’s a clue about all these “procedures”.......

Has anyone ever said “i ruined my barrel by not breaking it in” or “my method didn’t work”? No......everyone’s method always works.

Anytime something always works, that means it never works and doesn’t matter. If it mattered, you would have methods and techniques out there that didn’t work or harmed the barrel.

I do not think he buys into the break-in stuff but he has a point where I could clean the carbon stuff out before laying another copper layer until the barrel is in equilibrium (enough copper that more are not likely to stick on the barrel and accuracy could be improved.

What Aggie suggests is not a break-in but a way to form the copper layer in more sophisticated way, maybe a more permanent / lasting layer should I say. Not sure how the carbon acts there so it is all a guess at best.

However, I do not think I have time for that unfortunately today, I have family plinking with me and they probably prefer to keep on shooting. But I might only clean the carbon from the barrel after the session (normally I just snake the barrel if even that)

Btw, does anyone lightly oil their snakes to make the barrel more weather-proofed? I am a little worried about since the temps are running between freezing and warm now and condensation is a real thing.

Maybe I just put some itty bitty amount of Ballistol etc to the second snake..

 

[KYAggie]

Exactly, I’m not using this to break in a barrel, just lay down some copper. I have a Ruger 77 in 7mm mag I bought 39 years ago. For the first 20 years of its life, I only cleaned it with Hoppies #9, oiled it, and it shot great. Then I discovered Barnes CR10 and I gave it a good cleaning and it hasn’t shot the same since. I alwaya wondered why until reading this article, I think there is some merit to it.

I always put a little Slip2000 EWL on my snake. I usually run it through before leaving the range in case I don’t get it cleaned for a few days.

 

[TNSleeper99]

I’m not gonna jump in on the “break in” conversation. Like you said, just shoot it you will know when your barrel has an even layer of copper fouling when your groups tighten up and are consistent. It will be much quicker than you think.

 

[Near miss]

Thanks to everybody. Good discussion and information.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Terrible article. He goes on about break in and then says not to clean barrel until he sees things open up. And just attempts to mix in buzz words to sound smart.

Here’s a clue about all these “procedures”.......

Has anyone ever said “i ruined my barrel by not breaking it in” or “my method didn’t work”? No......everyone’s method always works.

Anytime something always works, that means it never works and doesn’t matter. If it mattered, you would have methods and techniques out there that didn’t work or harmed the barrel.

Since it matters to the author of that article, I’m a “former infantryman” as well (not that it matters) and I thought his article sucked

 

[AllenOne1]

I'm not going to tell you that this is the right way to do things but if that barrel was mine I would strip it down to bare steel removing all of the carbon and copper. Fresh start. Then shoot a few rounds and clean the carbon out but no copper cleaner, repeat a few times until I had 30-50 rounds on it and see where I was at. That way I know more about the barrel and I should be able to monitor it from that point since I know where I started from.

 

[Near miss]

I only shot around 20 rounds today and snaked it. I will clean it without removing copper, as usually, maybe tomorrow.

I will scope it to see how it looks like after the cleaning.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I only shot around 20 rounds today and snaked it. I will clean it without removing copper, as usually, maybe tomorrow.

I will scope it to see how it looks like after the cleaning.

I’d shoot it and stop scoping it unless it doesn’t shoot.

 

[Near miss]

I’d shoot it and stop scoping it unless it doesn’t shoot.

I want to learn by scoping it about the amount of copper needed. When the copper layer that gets the gun to run good is present, I will know the hotspots and how much of it.

So when I clean it after some (probably few thousands) rounds later, if group size gets bigger, I can be more efficient.

And it does not hurt, does it? I really do not have the habit of overly cleaning stuff. I must admit that I have now opened the gun up very often as I have been getting familiar with it. But after doing maintenance yesterday to recoil spring as the last part I call it good now. I have not disaasembled the bolt yet but I guess time will tell.

I see your concern about the rabbit holes bore scopes tend to dig for us. But I do not count myself in to that category. I know that in practice getting to clean metal is completely useless and even harmful, or at least has a negative net effect.

Barrels are made for shooting, not cleaning

 

[Hateca]

Carbon build up will kill accuracy long before copper will.

 

[Near miss]

I'd say it was mostly carbon that was new in the barrel, just small amount of copper after the chamber, in the same places it was in before the cleaning. It certainly finds its place back!

The carbon pieces after the chamber seem to now glimmer, they are really stuck there but I am maybe going to remove them later. They will be a good sample to test different carbon cleaning agents on.

Barrel before cleaning;

MR223_18 shots shot_unclean.mp4

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1drv.ms

Barrel after cleaning it briefly with CRC carbon cleaner.

MR223_18 shots_cleaned.mp4

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1drv.ms

 

[c ward]

Gonna be the odd man out here , to me that looks like chrome flaking off to , not copper . If that is the case there is nothing that can be done to reverse it .

 

[Near miss]

Gonna be the odd man out here , to me that looks like chrome flaking off to , not copper . If that is the case there is nothing that can be done to reverse it .

Yes, where the chrome is flaking the copper replaces it. Not sure how long the chrome should last in there but I am not surprised it is coming off by small amounts.

 

[c ward]

I've seen chrome lined barrels with 10k plus rounds down them that don't look that bad .

Could be a few things either there are way more rounds down it than the guy told you , crappy barrel , or possibly corrosive ammo since there are pits in the chamber also .

Anyway you look at it the barrel is toast and the accuracy will go away as the chrome flakes and damages the bullet jackets .

 

[Near miss]

I've seen chrome lined barrels with 10k plus rounds down them that don't look that bad .

Could be a few things either there are way more rounds down it that the guy told you , crappy barrel , or possibly corrosive ammo since there are pits in the chamber also .

Anyway you look at it the barrel is toast and the accuracy will go away as the chrome flakes and damages the bullet jackets .

I think the one pit in there might be from a small rock that has gotten in via a cartridge. (Not by me)

Corrosive ammo is probably out of question, to my knowledge it is very rare in the European market.

I also think that the barrel seems more shot than 1500 rounds.
We shall see how it performs with different match ammo in few weeks once the can arrives.

If it does not perform I am pretty ok with buying another barrel but I hope the shop will sell it to me with a discount.

So far I have shot the cheapest magtech and Fiocchi and it has an average of 1.6 moa.
Lowest was 1.3 moa.
Should be noted that I am not yet very familiar shooting it yet but this should however reflect its condition.

 

[Near miss]

To update this saga to anyone interested, I checked the barrel and there are clearly chrome pieces missing from the barrel.
But I went to range to copper it and just shoot.

I shot 10 shots with Magtech, snaking the barrel once or twice between the shots with CRC Carbon Remover applied to a spot on the snake.

I took a borescope and took video of the bore after the 10 shots. There was not much copper yet, I guess that is sort of a good thing.

MR223 Copper status after 10 shots.mp4

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1drv.ms

I then started testing it with, and first did one 3 round group at 150m, it was 2,5cm / 1" / 0.6MOA.
I switched ammo to GGG because Magtech ran out, and did 3 groups more.
3 shots - 1moa - these were clearly at different POI to the right by 2", my mistake most likely.
4 shots - 0.9moa - small vertical grouping
5 shots - 1.1moa - clearly vertical grouping - probably due to difficulties keeping the bipod still (even bipod loading) on the dusty concrete.

This was quite fun after-work fiddling. I did not mind snaking the barrel at all, I enjoyed the slow pace and shooting into the darkness.

Conclusion:
After the cleaning the results seemed to improve. The results still are inconclusive as the surface I shot on was changed from gravel to concrete. That said, I usually shoot a lot better on gravel than concrete as I get to dig the bipod feet into the ground. I shall see how the performance continues to develop.

 

[Near miss]

To make a proper end to this, here is the barrel after 1k rounds pretty much uncleaned. Not specifically 1000 rounds, but slightly under or over.
It seems the extra copper finds its way out on its own, as I find it sometimes in the muzzlebreak as blue goo.

I have not recently shot any match loads through it, so cannot say very much for its accuracy, but it seems to do 5 shot targets with S&B made Topshot bulk from 1moa to almost 3 moa, mostly 1.5moa. I also have problem with sometimes letting a shot 'loose' as in not really focusing to the end, which make up most of the 3 moa groups. This is because I try to also focus on the reticle to spot how it moves.. To learn where I lack support for the rifle.

My cleaning for the barrel has not included any copper removal. I have used CRC carbon cleaning agent not made for guns for maybe 4 times overall, it is very lousy stuff when tested on the muzzlebreak versus even Boretech Eliminator, but I have not really spotted carbon at all in the barrel either. I have not seen any black on the patches while cleaning the barrel with the solvent, just greyish. So not much carbon at all.

It seems the barrel firecracking has gone forward a little, I am not certain yet and will have to check it by comparing to the previous vid.

0:33 Begin of lands - 1:50 Gas Port - 2:40 Crown (one land has a nick and another land is missing the crown part completely)

MR223_1k rounds through uncleaned.mp4

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1drv.ms

I decided to compare gas ports as it is easily identified and found.
1.5K total ammo through:

2.5k total ammo through:

 

[Near miss]

With all of above going on with the barrel, and me shooting, barrel was still delivering almost 1moa 10 round group (1moa=1.18" at 100m) with Lapua Scenar with cold bore shot included and OK with GGG SMK factory loads, I felt too confident after Scenars and started blasting GGG SMK which got me the horizontal hits.

I cannot help myself with the pulled shots. I hope to get rid of them and I'm attending training soon.

LAPUA:

GGG:

 

[Dthomas3523]

I want to learn by scoping it about the amount of copper needed. When the copper layer that gets the gun to run good is present, I will know the hotspots and how much of it.

So when I clean it after some (probably few thousands) rounds later, if group size gets bigger, I can be more efficient.

And it does not hurt, does it? I really do not have the habit of overly cleaning stuff. I must admit that I have now opened the gun up very often as I have been getting familiar with it. But after doing maintenance yesterday to recoil spring as the last part I call it good now. I have not disaasembled the bolt yet but I guess time will tell.

I see your concern about the rabbit holes bore scopes tend to dig for us. But I do not count myself in to that category. I know that in practice getting to clean metal is completely useless and even harmful, or at least has a negative net effect.

Barrels are made for shooting, not cleaning

Most everything here is misguided.

Nothing wrong with completely cleaning quality barrels to the steel. It’s incredibly easy to do with the right process.

It also only takes a few shots for it to shoot the same as it did before.

Which do you think is easier:

Completely cleaning the barrel. Blank slate. No checking to see how much copper you “think” is in there based on mostly non valid testing and shitty borescope images

or

Attempting to solve some puzzle about how much copper is “good copper” and attempting to only clean that much?

I’ll take the method that takes about 10min of actual labor, a few min with borescope to make sure carbon and such is gone, and no testing needed to figure out some middle ground of cleaning.

Ironically you said you weren’t in the category of going down the borescope rabbit hole. Yet that’s exactly what you’re doing trying to figure out how to take enough copper out, but not too much.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Again, guess what happens if you don’t wait for group size to get bigger before cleaning?

Group sizes never get bigger.

 

[Near miss]

I am just interested in how much copper / how many rounds are needed to ruin accuracy in order to not clean more often than needed. I wish I could just periodically do a short application of Cu+ and be done with it.
Because why clean more often than needed, or ever, if possible. Ultimately I rather have the round count to tell me to clean, than borescope.

But you are right, I guess the benefit of cleaning halfway would only be there if very many shots were required to get it conditioned. But this barrel seemed to do well in the totally cleaned state too.

I still will go forward with not cleaning it until it shoots wide, just to see how much. Do you have a guess of the round count when the groups will open up to around 1.5moa with Scenars?

I have been coming very well aquainted with the gun during this time so it could be that the groups would be slightly smaller now with a clean barrel.

Ironically you said you weren’t in the category of going down the borescope rabbit hole. Yet that’s exactly what you’re doing trying to figure out how to take enough copper out, but not too much.

I see the borescope rabbit hole as people borescoping their barrels and cleaning them to the bare, until they do not see any copper, every time after a shooting session or start JB'ing without real issues.
We seem like complete opposites in that aspect. And as said, I rather keep count of rounds than check inside the barrel to make a guess.

I just like looking inside to check condition, it usually does not lead to actions. I gotta say I'd rather have less worn out barrel but it seems to be doing well enough.

This is my first CF and it was bought used so I was a bit cautious in the start.