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Barrel temperature ?
- Thread starter Baddog 0302
- Start date
Great reference, great movie, you don't get more based then Mel Gibson. When asked if he was a gay, he stood up bent over and said does it loom like dicks belong in here pointing to his butt
Chamber Chiller
Chamber Chiller - the ultimate rifle barrel and chamber cooler. Designed to prolong barrel life and help maintain your rifles accuracy potential.
www.chamberchiller.com
Thanks Spife!Chamber Chiller
Chamber Chiller - the ultimate rifle barrel and chamber cooler. Designed to prolong barrel life and help maintain your rifles accuracy potential.
I'm a machinist and welder. I've been heat treating parts for 25 years. I understand MPA's theory of 122 degrees as being the temp to not exceed because the chamber temp the the temp of the od of the barrel can be greatly different from one another. That being said I have a M24 contour 6GT barrel from them and after fire forming 100 rounds of brass in a couple of hours, I only stopped shooting to let buddies check targets, look at my chrono and write down results and load mags. I never exceeded the max barrel temp. The ambient temp was about 75 degrees. I've done many a mag dump in my AR's until the barrel was smoking and those rifles still easily shoot minute of silhouette at 200 yards off hand. I guess it all depends on what your are expecting long term for accuracy. Prairie dogs with a 22-250ai light barrel and100 degrees ambient with will probably burn up a barrel in a few thousand rounds. Most people wouldn't even notice if their rifles were loosing accuracy because they never shoot long enough distances to notice. Years ago I saw a guy that had a cooler with ice water in it that would stick his rifle barrel into to cool off while prairie dog hunting. Gun killed prairie dogs all day out to 500 yards or so.
It was a 18" criterion remage- lapua brass with rl16 at first breaking it in and then h4350 for the majority of its life once I resupplied powder with 140 rdfs for most its life and then some others at the end to try and find something that worked better once it didnt like the rdfs anymore but nothing brought it back.
I loaded from 37-43 gr, I tried to find the fast stuff that people claimed on here up in the 41+ grains for 2600+ fps for far too long and I think that played its own share in it crapping the bed too soon. I eventually kept it down near 39.4 for 2500s for the last half which shot alright for awhile until it didnt either.
In any case I pushed it too hard and too fast for too long because it was my "beater" rifle. Beater rifle took a beating and got beaten into submission.
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Ya'll here talking about barrel life and - most - missing accuracy. Just in case accuracy was the OP's concern, here's my two cents: I had a Mossberg Patriot 308 that couldn't hit paper at 100 yards after the barrel got hot - rounds started walking off the paper after just a few shots as the barrel warmed up until I couldn't tell where the shots were going after as few as 10 rounds. LOL- the cold bore shot was my only really close-to accurate shot! So I brought some ice packs on the next range trip to lay over the barrel and was able to get maybe 50 rounds down range and on paper (if not on that little red dot in the middle!) before the ice packs couldn't keep up with the heat. I decided that the Patriot wasn't likely the right gun for me and that it needed a new owner that could offer it a better - cooler - life. It wasn't the gun, it was me.
On the other hand, I haven't yet found the point where my 308 Remington 700 starts to wander (at least not due to how hot the barrel is!). I haven't needed to take more than one gun to the range when I just wanted to spend some alone time with the 700.
My unscientific answer to the OP's question is that if the concern is accuracy, then the MAX temp when you stop shooting will be very much dependent on your gun - in which case some testing and maybe an IR thermometer might be a useful tool in the range bag.
What was the barrel profile of the Mossberg and what of the Rem 700?
It is my understanding that more barrel takes longer to heat up.
My understanding too. My point being that if the OP is concerned about accuracy he's going to have to figure it out for his own specific gun.
In my case the Mossberg had a fluted barrel which - some people think - is supposed to improve heat transfer. Didn't help my particular gun, rendering it best suited for the guy that bought it from me who is going to sit in a tree with it, in the cool Fall, waiting for deer to walk by. He actually hopes he only has to fire once a day.
How long does the AA battery one last with a set of batteries?Chamber Chiller
Chamber Chiller - the ultimate rifle barrel and chamber cooler. Designed to prolong barrel life and help maintain your rifles accuracy potential.
Ok, cool. I actually got 2. 1 with the USB plug and one with AS batteries. They have a refurb/ sale section and have a few different ones that are $30 , so I got an AR one and a SA one. I think you could probably use either in a any bolt gun though, just might not fit as well as it would otherwise?
But, broski, “i’Ve GoT nO pReSsUrE sIgNs.” What do you not understand about all these people having special barrels and big genitalia that allows them to magically make velocity without pressure?
Different types of stainless steel convey heat at a different rate. A higher quality stainless steel does convey heat much differently than a cheaper stainless steel and, yes, the goal is for the higher quality stainless to convey the heat in a more desirable way. If you do just a little research, you will find that the mass of one piece of stainless steel has more of a variance on the amount of heat required to increase the overall temperature of the mass than the quality of the material. Stainless steels don't vary much in the amount of alloying materials that are introduced to increase their other properties. Mass matters more in heat transference than "quality". We learned that in Materials 101.
When asking about the profile of the barrel, I was curious as to whether there was enough of a difference in mass to create a difference between the two rifle barrels abilities to absorb and dissipate heat. The fluting of the Mossberg barrel should have helped with the dissipation of heat, if done properly, but in actuality, it probably just reduced the mass to a degree that it heated up more quickly.
I realize that the Rem 700 probably has a higher quality barrel than the Mossberg, but, that would only be one factor in the ability of the Rem 700 to withstand heat better than the Mossberg.
So, @Deputy Dan, out of my own curiosity, please tell me the profiles of the different barrels?
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That wasn't what I was getting at. Quality barrels have very homogenous steel, and are either properly stress relieved or produced by a non-stress inducing method. Even a light contour bartlein or krieger doesn't wander to any great degree. The mossberg has a mediocre hammer forged barrel with a bunch stress in it, which is why it wanders.
I agree that a Mossberg is made from a lower quality stainless than a Bartlein or a Krieger. I would bet though that the Mossberg is almost the size of a thread in comparison to almost any barrel of decent quality. You have to also take into account the increased quality of a Bartlein or Krieger has something to do with the much closer tolerance when boring it and rifling it in the manufacturer of these two exceptional barrels compared to that of a Mossberg barrel, or about any other barrel, for that matter. Bartlein claims that their rifling is cut to a tolerance in the ten thousandths. Most manufacturers only claim tolerance to the thousandths.
I'm not disagreeing with you about the quality of the barrel having a bearing on its ability to handle heat better. I just don't think that there is a big enough difference in the quality of material in a Mossberg Patriot and Rem 700 barrel. I don't know about the Rem 700, but, the Mossberg barrel is common (carbon) steel. The specific heat capacity for common steel is the same as that of 304 stainless. 420 stainless steel's heat capacity is only 40 joules more per kilogram. That's really not much difference. Most stainless barrels are 416R stainless.
I can't find out on the internet the barrel profiles of the rifles that I am questioning. I am still curious.
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I am amazed to read such low round barrels being replaced, I put 3000 rounds through a Douglas I chambered in 243, this was on 4 heavy shootin Praire dog shoots. 800 rounds each time over a days shooting. BUT, I don't load for speed,I load for accuracy and that's usually at 40-60% of the max loads. At 3150 rounds the rifle was still shooting .90 MOA. It was smokin hot many times and poppin whistle pigs .I did clean it,never pulled a brush back though bore and used Mont X Bore conditioner.
That’s why it’s hard to use the numbers people give as an accurate assessment for barrel life. There’s no set standard and everyone has their own definition.
For example, I consider “barrel life” to be the point where it takes its first velocity drop. I pull barrels before that can happen. At least pulled from anything serious. Those barrels may still shoot .3 but the velocity change happening will cost a match or an animal.
Those barrels then become practice or club match or varmint barrels. Stuff that doesn’t matter as much.
This is usually the reason you’ll hear someone say they got 1800 rnds on a 6.5cm and another say they got 4000 rnds. The first likely pulled at a velocity change and the second when the barrel stopped shooting .5 - 1moa somewhere.
Its mostly just loading over max and torching throats. My experience is like yours.
I don't have the Mossberg anymore so I can only go with my fading memory and what (little!) I can find on the interweb: "light profile" fluted straight or "sporter" taper as I recall. Pretty sure it as a 24" barrel.
The 700 has a Varmint/MTU/M24 taper barrel at 22".
Dang dude. It almost hurts trying to follow your reasoning.
Quality of the barrel IS NOT ABOUT QUALITY OF THE STEEL primarily. You seem to be stuck on that though. Quality of the manufacturing, meaning finish and actual dimensions, are the important detail. And that doesn't mean barrel profile either; high quality does not mean heavy profile.
What was said above about stresses in the barrel is far more relevant than your comments about steel quality or profile. What's also relevant is straightness of the bore and how far it goes off center between the chamber and muzzle. I've shortened barrels that showed the bore up to .030" offset from the OD - that's low quality, and those barrels definitely wandered when they heated up. What steel they were made of, or the barrel profile, is pretty irrelevant.
I would ask you to reread all that I wrote, but I know that you won't.
I'm not trying to butt heads with anyone, but, I'm in no way talking about the quality of the material in relation to the quality of the barrel. I was trying to convey to @Supersubes that quality of the barrel does not have as heavily a bearing on the barrel's ability to maintain accuracy as does the mass of the barrel. The heavier the barrel, the more heat it can absorb before it reaches temperatures that will increase the wear and/or affect the accuracy of the barrel. I was asking about the profile of the two rifles @Deputy Dan was referring to so I could determine if one had a heavier profile than the other. Heavier barrel profile means a heavier barrel, the greater ability to withstand heat. Almost all the top ranked professional PRS shooters choose a heavier profile barrel for this exact reason.
I made the exact point that you did about quality of the barrel isn't necessarily about the quality of the steel. It's mainly about the quality of the workmanship and tighter tolerances adhered to during manufacturing.
@Deputy Dan said that his Mossberg had a much thinner barrel than his Rem 700. That verifies my point. That's all I was trying to do.
I’d take a quality light profile barrel over a crapshoot factory heavy barrel any day of the week. A barrel with more mass takes longer to heat up but mass alone says nothing about how much the barrel wanders once it gets hot. Quality materials and manufacturing rule.
OK. A quality barrel shoots better than a cheaper one. If that had something to do with what I was talking about, I would be ecstatic.
Really?
“ I was trying to convey to @Supersubes that quality of the barrel does not have as heavily a bearing on the barrel's ability to maintain accuracy as does the mass of the barrel”.
You're dead wrong on this.
One of the reasons that the "Top" PRS shooters are using heavier profile barrels is because a heavier profile barrel can shoot more rounds before accuracy is effected by heat than a barrel with less material. It's not the only reason. I never said it was. It is, however, a scientific fact.
For those of you that are coming in mid discussion and making comments, thank you.
As far as my point, besides it being logical, there are others besides me that have stated the same thing. Go over to precisionrifleblog.com and see what Cal Zant has to say on the subject. I have recently read several other articles that mention the same thing.
It's not my responsibility to make you understand what I'm talking about. I was trying to make a point so that some shooters reading this thread might be able to use to improve their shooting experience.
A barrel shouldn't have much issues with accuracy and heat unless there is improper stress relieving in the barrel - in which case accuracy will degrade and the POI will walk.
Generally not a concern with our barrels, given most people go with high quality barrels. Certainly a concern with lesser quality barrels.
Again, you are not correct.
I have been shooting for quite some time and had hundreds, possibly more conversations on why to use what.
Not a single one has ever, ever been about barrel temp and long shot strings with more or less barrel mass.
Guys were shooting 20 shot string stages at rifles only 20 years ago with non truck axle barrels. An m24 at the time was considered very large for a practical rifle.
You are absolutely making assumptions based on what you feel is fact. You are correct that more mass = more shots to heat up.
You are incorrect that precision/accuracy will degrade in 20 rounds or less on a stage to necessitate the larger mass barrel.
This isn’t 1995. If your barrel can’t handle 20 rounds without accuracy/precision degradation, it’s garbage. And there is no reason needed to run them in PRS for that reason.
We are running large barrels for weight. For the balance and recoil mitigation.
You are as far off as you can be.
Lots of good perspective here. For me, there's a whopping big difference in how I manage barrel temperature depending on "why" I'm shooting. If I'm doing precision cartridge load development, I shoot with at least a minute between shots, and make sure I don't get over about 115°. In load development, consistency in testing matters, and any variation in testing should be avoided. If I'm at the range just shooting for groups and for practice, I'll watch the barrel for excessive heat, but not insert predictable time between shots. If I'm in a competition, then the flow of the match will dictate how long my barrel has to cool down.
Irrespective of all this, having a temp-strip is always a good idea, and being "aware" of temperature, is very different than being "obsessed" with it.
Irregardless of how long anyone has been shooting and what different competitions they shoot in, there are certain properties that rule the physical universe. I am referring to the property of specific heat. Look it up. If you think that this property does not relate to you, then you are sadly mistaken.
You have fun now.
Bravo Tango, out.
You have fun now.
Bravo Tango, out.
So for practical purposes, where are you going to see a functional difference between barrels, with their differing cross-sectional densities and at what temperatures? Are these temperatures in which this physical property comes into practical effect at temperatures we experience shooting our rifles?
And in the same vein, barrels with larger cross sectional densities take longer to cool. So barrels with larger cross-sectional densities will be at a disadvantage from that aspect. If this physical property truly effects us from a practical standpoint.
At what point will a 1.25" straight contour provide an advantage over a heavy varmint profile? What would the difference be? How much will the POI and precision of a heavy varmint profile be effected in comparison to a 1.25" straight profile on a stage with a high rate of fire? Or is this argument purely academic, with no real practical difference for our application?
I think that I know where I went wrong in the presentation of my original premise.
Do you all think that I'm saying that a heavier profile barrel is more accurate than a lighter profile barrel? If so, then now I understand the confusion.
I know that the quality of a barrel has more of an impact on the accuracy of a rifle than the barrel profile.
What I have been trying to say is, even if two barrels are of varying quality and accuracy, a heavier barrel can fire more rounds than a lighter barrel before the heat begins to effect its accuracy. That's if both rifles maintain the same rate of fire and the rounds are of the same load, .
If the lighter barrel is of a higher quality, and initially is more accurate, even though the accuracy is effected sooner, its accuracy will more than likely never get worse than the accuracy of the heavier, lower quality barrel. The opposite would be true, too. If the heavier barrel is of higher quality its accuracy would be effected later and would more than likely remain higher than that of the lower quality barrel.
The OP was about barrel temperature effecting accuracy and then @Deputy Dan and I got off on a different topic of how barrel profile effects how soon a rifle's accuracy will suffer.
I hope that we are all on the same page now. If we are, I apologize for not making myself as clear as I should have sooner.
If we aren't on the same page, I can't think of any other way to express my opinion.
Either way, have a good day.
Do you all think that I'm saying that a heavier profile barrel is more accurate than a lighter profile barrel? If so, then now I understand the confusion.
I know that the quality of a barrel has more of an impact on the accuracy of a rifle than the barrel profile.
What I have been trying to say is, even if two barrels are of varying quality and accuracy, a heavier barrel can fire more rounds than a lighter barrel before the heat begins to effect its accuracy. That's if both rifles maintain the same rate of fire and the rounds are of the same load, .
If the lighter barrel is of a higher quality, and initially is more accurate, even though the accuracy is effected sooner, its accuracy will more than likely never get worse than the accuracy of the heavier, lower quality barrel. The opposite would be true, too. If the heavier barrel is of higher quality its accuracy would be effected later and would more than likely remain higher than that of the lower quality barrel.
The OP was about barrel temperature effecting accuracy and then @Deputy Dan and I got off on a different topic of how barrel profile effects how soon a rifle's accuracy will suffer.
I hope that we are all on the same page now. If we are, I apologize for not making myself as clear as I should have sooner.
If we aren't on the same page, I can't think of any other way to express my opinion.
Either way, have a good day.
Are you sure about this? I have no firm position on any of this (cause I'm basically an ignoramus! haha).
But I wonder to what extent increased surface area for heat radiation of the wider diameter barrel offsets the greater amount of sunk heat.
But....this seems to be getting to the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" sort of thing.
Cheers
there is a formula, as its not a ratio
in general if you make a barrel "fatter" the amount of surface increase (circumference of barrel) does not even come close to off setting the increase of material...which will hold heat
a fatter/thicker barrel will take longer to heat up but also longer to cool off.
that's a formula as well...just figured you guys dont want a math lesson after lunch
I read exactly what you wrote, and that's what I commented on. You, on the other hand, keep jumping around and saying different things, pretending you didn't say something different earlier. It's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds like you have major communication problems. Try proof reading what you write. More immediately, go back and read your own posts in this thread; they're all over the place and don't make much sense.
The difference in the ability to dissipate heat between a 5.5 lb. piece of 416R stainless that hasn't been stressed and a 5.5 lb. piece of 416R stainless that has been stressed is almost negligible. The difference in the amount of time it takes both to absorb a specific amount of heat is also negligible.
The difference in the time it takes for a stressed 5.5 lb. piece of 416R stainless to absorb a specific amount of heat compared to a non-stressed 6 lb. piece of 416R stainless is measurable.
The weight of a barrel has more impact than the quality of a barrel when it comes to the amount of heat it will absorb before its accuracy is effected, good or bad.
I have not changed my position at all. My explanations may have changed, in hopes that all of you might come to the realization that my position is valid.
I really enjoy snipershide.com, but, I don't look to it for all my information on long range shooting. I spend more time doing my own research.
BTW, a difference in opinion is really no reason to get snippy. We should all be here to enjoy the sharing of information.
The difference in the time it takes for a stressed 5.5 lb. piece of 416R stainless to absorb a specific amount of heat compared to a non-stressed 6 lb. piece of 416R stainless is measurable.
The weight of a barrel has more impact than the quality of a barrel when it comes to the amount of heat it will absorb before its accuracy is effected, good or bad.
I have not changed my position at all. My explanations may have changed, in hopes that all of you might come to the realization that my position is valid.
I really enjoy snipershide.com, but, I don't look to it for all my information on long range shooting. I spend more time doing my own research.
BTW, a difference in opinion is really no reason to get snippy. We should all be here to enjoy the sharing of information.
Meh, you say the wrong things, then say that’s not what you said or meant. Then say it a different way.
Then you attempt to scold people with what seems you feel is “clever” or proper wording. When others take a less passive and more direct route you call it “snippy.”
You are the epitome of the Internet forum “victim.”
Let’s cut out all the “I think” stuff.
Who here has a non junk barrel of any contour, be it the thinnest or a 1.25” or larger straight taper that consistently has decreased accuracy and/or precision over the course of a 20-30 shot string?? As far as practical stuff. I’m not talking a .2 BR rifle shooting .45 now and not being able to win a BR match.
And, if so, who has one that continued to do so after the installation of a mirage shield or band?
Not talking throat wear/erosion. That’s a separate convo.
Anyone at all? If so, post the details and the pics and such. I’d seriously love to see it. As I’ve yet to find any decent barrel not able to handle the shot strings typically considered “normal” for our purposes. And by that, I mean none that did and were held as acceptable by the manufacturer.
Any that did show any issues were promptly replaced by the respective manufacturer as that shouldn’t happen.
Who here has a non junk barrel of any contour, be it the thinnest or a 1.25” or larger straight taper that consistently has decreased accuracy and/or precision over the course of a 20-30 shot string?? As far as practical stuff. I’m not talking a .2 BR rifle shooting .45 now and not being able to win a BR match.
And, if so, who has one that continued to do so after the installation of a mirage shield or band?
Not talking throat wear/erosion. That’s a separate convo.
Anyone at all? If so, post the details and the pics and such. I’d seriously love to see it. As I’ve yet to find any decent barrel not able to handle the shot strings typically considered “normal” for our purposes. And by that, I mean none that did and were held as acceptable by the manufacturer.
Any that did show any issues were promptly replaced by the respective manufacturer as that shouldn’t happen.
All of my quality barrels, be they skinny or thick, seem to hold accuracy reasonably well over a 20-30 shot string. No issues there.
On the other hand, I’ve had a number of factory barrels that were not high quality, also skinny or thick, that tended to wander with heat and either string shots in a line (towards whatever side of the barrel is thinner, when cut open) or just shotgun pattern.
The difference seemed to correlate well with quality and straightness of the barrel, not so much with material or thickness.
The only times I've heard of barrels with degrading precision over long strings of fire are those that are improperly stress relieved.
Can't say I've ever noticed a difference between lighter contours and heavier contours on this. Though the slimmest contour I've had is a Hawkhill Marksman profile. No difference between that and my current MTU's/HV contours.
Can't say I've ever noticed a difference between lighter contours and heavier contours on this. Though the slimmest contour I've had is a Hawkhill Marksman profile. No difference between that and my current MTU's/HV contours.
Here you are coming back to material again, while pretending you’re not talking in circles.
You’re way too focused on material and barrel thickness, claiming the length of time it holds heat is the significant factor.
In reality, the amount the barrel moves as it changes temperature is what affects accuracy, and that is most closely related to concentricity of the bore to the OD and stress relief.
A smart person in your shoes would stop teaching and start learning.
“The weight of a barrel has more impact than the quality of a barrel when it comes to the amount of heat it will absorb before its accuracy is effected, good or bad.”
There you have it, guys. We should be shooting mediocre barrels of a heavy contour. Even though they shoot mediocre from round one, we can shoot lots of mediocre groups before before the medicore groups turn into shitty groups. Seems legit….
OK, let's resort to name calling and other insults. All of you that are naysayers, you have forgotten something that you were probably once taught, just because you disagree with someone doesn't necessarily make that person wrong. You need to sit back and listen and learn. You claim to be shooters, yet, you don't seem to care about or understand the science of shooting.
You can say that I'm going in circles, but, not one of you have offered any other explanation for your beliefs other than quality means more than weight. If you could give just one explanation other than my writing is incomprehensible.
Sounds to me like you are the victims, victims of falling for the marketing hype of barrel manufacturers. Less stress in a material doesn't change its specific heat. And there is no process that can magically make it so.
I was trying to help you understand a principle that, to me, is extremely simple. I offered it in hopes that you would use the information to improve your game.
If you want to refuse to accept an argument that was actually presented with some actual scientific principles and simple analogies, then that is fine. Again, that doesn't necessarily make me wrong.
As far as my cleaver snips, it was only because I didn't want to return your snips by referring to you as world class, close minded assholes, which is exactly what you are being.
You can say that I'm going in circles, but, not one of you have offered any other explanation for your beliefs other than quality means more than weight. If you could give just one explanation other than my writing is incomprehensible.
Sounds to me like you are the victims, victims of falling for the marketing hype of barrel manufacturers. Less stress in a material doesn't change its specific heat. And there is no process that can magically make it so.
I was trying to help you understand a principle that, to me, is extremely simple. I offered it in hopes that you would use the information to improve your game.
If you want to refuse to accept an argument that was actually presented with some actual scientific principles and simple analogies, then that is fine. Again, that doesn't necessarily make me wrong.
As far as my cleaver snips, it was only because I didn't want to return your snips by referring to you as world class, close minded assholes, which is exactly what you are being.
Provide actual data rather than ambiguous talking points to prove your point.
You make claims that don't line up with observational evidence.
You also keep screaming that it's "physics". Dust off the calculator and show through numbers how much precision is affected by heat (say 30 round string), for different barrel contours.
