Barrel tuner worth it or not?

[Hogg0494]

Hi hide,recently got into shooting alot bench rest with my son,have a CZ 457
22lr.Mostly stock rifle.shoots consistant .3’-.4. ‘S Some .1-.2’s. Using SK red box
Would a barrel tuner benefit me on a 22lr with a 16” barrel?have read alot mixed reviews here

 

[littlesister]

Hi hide,recently got into shooting alot bench rest with my son,have a CZ 457
22lr.Mostly stock rifle.shoots consistant .3’-.4. ‘S Some .1-.2’s. Using SK red box
Would a barrel tuner benefit me on a 22lr with a 16” barrel?have read alot mixed reviews here

For what their worth, here's my thoughts on your OP. If your gun is shooting .1 to .4 in groups I wouldn't use the word consistent. Also at what distance are you shooting and how many shots in a group? Shoot 3 separate groups at least 10 shots or more per group at 50 yds and take an average. This will be closer to what the gun is really capable of shooting. As to barrel tuners. There really aren't any mixed reviews. Anyone that really knows anything about 22lr accuracy knows tuners work! But NOT on a 16in barrel CZ.

 

[Hogg0494]

Thanks for reply. Forgot to mention
Everything is 50 yds with 5 shot groups

 

[Williwaw]

I would not expect any benefit on a 16 inch barrel.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I would expect a benefit as soon as you run into a lot of ammo that doesn't jive with your innate harmonics. Granted it's harder to tune a shorter barrel of a given contour though, as they vibrate faster so the "nodes" you're seeking are smaller. Let us know what you find out!

 

[Shayne Ward]

For what its worth I will chime in. This isnt my opinion as I have not enough experience to say so, but I will give you the expertise as it was explained to me by someone who knows. Joseph @ Eley in Winters, TX told me that a barrel tuner installed on any barrel even if not properly tuned will produce better groupings than a rifle without a tuner....Period. He shoots these rifles day in and day out in perfect conditions so I took his word for it. I know that tuning my rifle made a very obvious difference. Not here to argue about it just passing along what I was told by someone I trust.

 

[grauhanen]

This isnt my opinion as I have not enough experience to say so, but I will give you the expertise as it was explained to me by someone who knows. Joseph @ Eley in Winters, TX told me that a barrel tuner installed on any barrel even if not properly tuned will produce better groupings than a rifle without a tuner....Period. He shoots these rifles day in and day out in perfect conditions so I took his word for it

Readers should view the claim allegedly made by Joseph with caution and skepticism. Simply putting a weight on the end of any .22LR barrel doesn't in itself improve results. If any size weight would do, there would seem to be little use for adjustable tuners. Serious shooters avoid using random weights on their barrels.

Crucial to tuner effectiveness is having the weight at the correct distance ahead of the muzzle. This will vary from one rifle to the next, from one barrel to the next, depending, more or less, on length and profile. Some lengths and profiles are more responsive to the use of tuners than others. For example, a short and heavy barrel will not respond well.

It's also important to recognize that tuners work best by reducing vertical dispersion of ammo that is itself already relatively consistent. That is to say, tuners cannot and will not turn inconsistent or mediocre ammo into something else, something better.

 

[Shayne Ward]

I said I wasnt going to argue and I wont lol. Skepticism is fine. The guy obviously knows what he is doing. He claimed that he had never seen a adverse effect of putting a tuner on a rifle. Now that being said he is shooting good lots of ammo. I agree and most should hopefully understand that a tuner will not help a bad lot of ammo. For what its worth he didnt agree with the Purdy Method of barrel tuning from my understanding of his explanation. He tuned with two different speeds of ammo and once tuned he explained that the barrel was tuned.... Meaning it was what it was for any and all ammo forward. My understanding is that he will actually tune some rifles before lot testing as to simplify picking the best lot.

 

[flatland1]

If I was going looking for a rifle to shoot 22RF BR with, it wouldn't be any rifle with a 16" bbl length. But you didn't say that you'd bought this CZ with BR shooting in mind, so don't take that as a knock on your judgement. If that's what you had to begin with, and it's shooting those size groups fairly regularly, you're lucky - both in finding a factory rifle capable of shooting like that, and in finding a lot of SK Rifle Match that shoots that well in it. I'm certainly no RFBR expert - have never yet shot a match, only put tuners (Pro-X & Harrells are all I've tried so far) on a couple of V22 repeaters and a V22S single shot. The repeaters have 21" & 23" Kriegers in Rem sendero contour, while the single shot has a 25" Benchmark 3-groove in Shilen's R5 contour. In my experience - which is mainly group shooting, with some ARA 25-bull targets thrown in - there's no question in my mind that a tuner helps reduce the vertical spread of a group. The biggest issue I've had in shooting the ARA targets is being consistent enough in moving from bull to bull not to cause inconsistent POI. It's a skill that takes experience to develop, and shooting off a somewhat wobbly portable bench hasn't helped my results or my confidence much. But if you were to invest in a tuner to fit a fairly heavy bbl, at least you could continue to use the tuner on a similar sized barrel down the road, even if you had to buy some shim stock to wrap around a barrel that's slightly smaller diameter, or have a machinist open up the ID of the tuner if you wind up with a larger diameter barrel. IOW, it won't cost you that much to find out if a tuner helps your existing rifle...

 

[fredfish]

Hi hide,recently got into shooting alot bench rest with my son,have a CZ 457
22lr.Mostly stock rifle.shoots consistant .3’-.4. ‘S Some .1-.2’s. Using SK red box
Would a barrel tuner benefit me on a 22lr with a 16” barrel?have read alot mixed reviews here

I have tried tuner my buddy has tried tuners we both use limb savers now. Cheap to try!

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I think they can be usefull but they are pretty low down on priority list. Having a well seasoned barrel and a good lot of ammo is MUCH more important than a small tune of groups. You are going to live and die by SD/ES, especially past 100 yards.

 

[acudaowner]

totally up to you but it and try it for your self only you can decide what is best for you .

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Hi hide,recently got into shooting alot bench rest with my son,have a CZ 457
22lr.Mostly stock rifle.shoots consistant .3’-.4. ‘S Some .1-.2’s. Using SK red box
Would a barrel tuner benefit me on a 22lr with a 16” barrel?have read alot mixed reviews here

I suggest before investing in a tuner try a higher tier of ammo such as CX or even Midas+ though you are getting fairly decent results with SKRM it is not consistent enough to determine if the barrel would benefit from a tuner. if the barrel is capable, you will see it with the better ammo.
for example, this barrel shot with no tuner even with the center group being 0.300 ctc for the 3 5-shot groups it still averages 0.149 and if I count the other 2 groups shot with a different lot of CX it still averaged 0.180 ctc across 5 5 shot groups. I can tell you this barrel does benefit with a tuner on it.

Lee

 

[littlesister]

Hi hide,recently got into shooting alot bench rest with my son,have a CZ 457
22lr.Mostly stock rifle.shoots consistant .3’-.4. ‘S Some .1-.2’s. Using SK red box
Would a barrel tuner benefit me on a 22lr with a 16” barrel?have read alot mixed reviews here

A follow up on my reply to your OP. HI NV Shooters reply is dead on as far ammo is concerned .While Sk is decent ammo that's all it is . Not in the same class as the upper grades of Lapua, Eley and RWS. I can tell you without a doubt . Don't waste your money on a Harrels style tuner. Thet are designed to work on barrels 24 to 27 in. They will not show any improvement in grouping on a 16 in barrel. There may be some tuners designed for barrels that short. I but I really doubt it. I would spend that $150 lot testing.

 

[Hogg0494]

What would your recommend as far as types of ammo to test?tks

 

[Hogg0494]

I have tried eley match(black box) and center x and the rifle does not like either

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I have tried eley match(black box) and center x and the rifle does not like either

How many different lot numbers did you try? in the past when you could get multiple test lots perhaps 3-4 out of 10 different lots would shoot ok with just 1 and if lucky 2 that would shoot well enough to but in volume.
if you only tried 1 o3 two different lots that is not enough to say the rifle doesn't like this over that.

I would also try SKPM and Lapua Pistol King I have had decent results with SKPM and great results with Lapus PK

Lee

 

[littlesister]

What would your recommend as far as types of ammo to test?tks

We don't seem to be getting anywhere with this but I'm good for one more reply. First is your gun. For a $700 gun a CZ is a well built accurate gun. It is still a $700 dollar gun with that level of accuracy. You can't expect it to shoot with guns costing 3 times that much. It sounds like yours shoots pretty good as is and the only way to improve its accuracy without throwing a lot of money at it is with ammo. You said it doesn't like Eley BB and Lapua centerX . I find this strange as most barrels I have dealt with that shoot Sk match will also shoot centerx and midas+ better. Eley BB and Lapua centeX is offered in lots. Some lots are crap and some outstanding. I don't know how much of each you shot, but you can't draw conclusions shooting one box of one lot. "Lot testing"

 

[littlesister]

We don't seem to be getting anywhere with this but I'm good for one more reply. First is your gun. For a $700 gun a CZ is a well built accurate gun. It is still a $700 dollar gun with that level of accuracy. You can't expect it to shoot with guns costing 3 times that much. It sounds like yours shoots pretty good as is and the only way to improve its accuracy without throwing a lot of money at it is with ammo. You said it doesn't like Eley BB and Lapua centerX . I find this strange as most barrels I have dealt with that shoot Sk match will also shoot centerx and midas+ better. Eley BB and Lapua centeX is offered in lots. Some lots are crap and some outstanding. I don't know how much of each you shot, but you can't draw conclusions shooting one box of one lot. "Lot testing"

 

[Hogg0494]

Got it. Tried 2 lots center x & 3 lots eley match. Will try more lots of each,its just darn near impossible here in NY to get ammo.I have never came across a local gun shop that has any Lapua or Eley on the shelf. They will not order it unless I buy a 1 brick minimum.At a $150 a brick its very costly to lot test.Alot of online retailers and shops will not ship it to me either.I appreciate all the input and will continue to lot test. Thanks all
One last question.Once you find a lot that works,isnt it gonna be impossible to find the same lot when you need more?How long do these ammo companies make the same lot for?

 

[grauhanen]

Once you find a lot that works,isnt it gonna be impossible to find the same lot when you need more?How long do these ammo companies make the same lot for?

Any one lot is made on one production run during the course of a single day. Once made, it's not possible to remake it.

Match ammo lots vary in size. The top tier varieties usually have fewer rounds made than "lesser" varieties. The number of rounds produced in a lot varies. With 5000 rounds (ten bricks) per case, some lots may have very few cases produced. Lapua Center X lots have been as small as three cases, but usually up to about five to seven cases of any one lot are produced

When a shooter runs out of a good lot, he begins looking for others. That's why testing is a never ending process in the search for good shooting lots.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Got it. Tried 2 lots center x & 3 lots eley match. Will try more lots of each,its just darn near impossible here in NY to get ammo.I have never came across a local gun shop that has any Lapua or Eley on the shelf. They will not order it unless I buy a 1 brick minimum.At a $150 a brick its very costly to lot test.Alot of online retailers and shops will not ship it to me either.I appreciate all the input and will continue to lot test. Thanks all
One last question.Once you find a lot that works,isnt it gonna be impossible to find the same lot when you need more?How long do these ammo companies make the same lot for?

I completely understand your situation being in NY. as for how much of any lot there would be I can't say for Eley but Lapua CX & Midas+ is limited to what I have seen under 15 cases or 1500 boxes.
another thing you could do if you seriously want to find the best lots is send the rifle to Lapua or Eley for testing. but it will have added expenses since UPS will not ship a rifle to a non-FFL or have a non-FFL ship it. these are the times we live in.
good luck in you searches hopefully you will find something.

Lee

 

[Hogg0494]

Thanks for all the info everyone

 

[sarcasmn]

I have a Bergara and a Vudoo. I use the Bergara for NRL22 matches and the Vudoo for PRS Rimfire matches. I have a Cortina Tuner on the Vudoo. I like SK Long Range but usually only get a thousand or so rounds at a time. That lasts me about three months.

In my testing I have found the tuner will help tame some of the discrepancies between lots. I test at 50 yards and usually get 3 to 5 good nodes. Then I test those nodes at 200 yards. Usually only one or two nodes will work at both. The tuner tames some of the extreme spread. This is my work around for the ammo shortage. What I am concentrating on at 200 yards is vertical spread.

The tuner is not a magic wand but it does help some. It’s kinda like load development for a 22 since you cannot reload.

I have not tried a tuner on the 18” Bergara barrel but I plan to.

 

[darth_ritis]

I now swear by them for 22LR. I have one on every precision 22 I own. For me, it's not for "improved accuracy" as much as it is keeping the rifle shooting consistently well across different lots of ammo. I no longer have to sweat which lot of Center-X I can find when I can just tweak the tuner a few numbers for the new lot.

 

[Hogg0494]

Good to know

 

[Mr.BR]

Most tuners on the market are too light to have much effect , RFBR crowd is running tuners 2x the weight on longer barrels in comparison to the NRL22 folk as is Centerfire BR crowd , tuners like EC come from weight limited classes like F-TR and are used on long barrels(30'+)and have uncriticaly migrated to PRS type guns without considerable weight gain, i would avoid small and light tuners for as they are just to light particulary if the barrel is somewhat short . Anything under 8-10 ounces is to light if the barrel is not 26 or longer.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Are you talking .22RFBR? or CFBR never seen a .22RF with a 30" finished barrel.

Lee

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Most tuners on the market are too light to have much effect , RFBR crowd is running tuners 2x the weight on longer barrels in comparison to the NRL22 folk as is Centerfire BR crowd , tuners like EC come from weight limited classes like F-TR and are used on long barrels(30'+)and have uncriticaly migrated to PRS type guns without considerable weight gain, i would avoid small and light tuners for as they are just to light particulary if the barrel is somewhat short . Anything under 8-10 ounces is to light if the barrel is not 26 or longer.

Meh, not my experience. I found the lighter tuners to be less temp sensitive as opposed to the heavier tuners were typically good for about a 20-30 degree temperature swing, +/-15 degrees each way before I had to start changing settings to keep in tune. The one I use on my 18" anschutz 1712 medium barrel weighs only around 3.5 oz IIRC. They made me take it off as it is considered an "attachment" and therefore illegal for hunter class in silo. I did not see shifts in temp like the heavier tuners. I could use that one year round without adjusting it.

Lets keep in mind we are influencing barrel harmonics with weight, it is that simple. What is hard is knowing where and how much weight to place. I've seen an ARA benchrest barrel that that simply did not group well at around 3/8-1/2" even with a harrels tuner, but absolutely came alive and grouped very well when a mid barrel tuner was installed in addition to the harrels. That person then used that barrel for at least the next 4 years in competition. General rule of lighter and longer barrel responds better to tuner, but short and fat will still see changes. Any weight on the barrel makes a change of some sort.

 

[Haney]

Most tuners on the market are too light to have much effect , RFBR crowd is running tuners 2x the weight on longer barrels in comparison to the NRL22 folk as is Centerfire BR crowd , tuners like EC come from weight limited classes like F-TR and are used on long barrels(30'+)and have uncriticaly migrated to PRS type guns without considerable weight gain, i would avoid small and light tuners for as they are just to light particulary if the barrel is somewhat short . Anything under 8-10 ounces is to light if the barrel is not 26 or longer.

Wrong, your theory is incorrect . Experience is the best teacher .

 

[Mr.BR]

Are you talking .22RFBR? or CFBR never seen a .22RF with a 30" finished barrel.

Lee

Like its writen 30in barrels are on F-class open and F-TR class rifles from where the tuners migrated into PRS

 

[Mr.BR]

Meh, not my experience. I found the lighter tuners to be less temp sensitive as opposed to the heavier tuners were typically good for about a 20-30 degree temperature swing, +/-15 degrees each way before I had to start changing settings to keep in tune. The one I use on my 18" anschutz 1712 medium barrel weighs only around 3.5 oz IIRC. They made me take it off as it is considered an "attachment" and therefore illegal for hunter class in silo. I did not see shifts in temp like the heavier tuners. I could use that one year round without adjusting it.

Lets keep in mind we are influencing barrel harmonics with weight, it is that simple. What is hard is knowing where and how much weight to place. I've seen an ARA benchrest barrel that that simply did not group well at around 3/8-1/2" even with a harrels tuner, but absolutely came alive and grouped very well when a mid barrel tuner was installed in addition to the harrels. That person then used that barrel for at least the next 4 years in competition. General rule of lighter and longer barrel responds better to tuner, but short and fat will still see changes. Any weight on the barrel makes a change of some sort.

'' General rule of lighter and longer barrel responds better to tuner, but short and fat will still see changes. Any weight on the barrel makes a change of some sort.'' That is true

But is literally opposite of your claim lightweight tuners work best , Lighter 'thinner' barrels that are longer are less stiff , move more and are influenced more by the same weight hence shorter stiffer barrels would need more weight at the end for a similar effect.

1712 is hardly a BR rifle to stake your findings around . And yes in most RFBR guns once you find the combo most don't dial anymore. In any case tuner gains are small so if rifle and ammo combo can't run for the podium without it can't win with it either.

* have been shooting and making tuners. for more than a decade and have shoot about 80k rounds with tuners, mostly with rimfire but also with centerfire. My latest pet projects are suppressors with built-in tuners and it looks like added weight from suppresor and being well past the muzzle works better than a tuner or tuner brake combo but as of now sample size is too small to say for certain..Off course, there is always a point when you no longer see a return from adding more weight

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Meh, not my experience. I found the lighter tuners to be less temp sensitive as opposed to the heavier tuners were typically good for about a 20-30 degree temperature swing, +/-15 degrees each way before I had to start changing settings to keep in tune. The one I use on my 18" anschutz 1712 medium barrel weighs only around 3.5 oz IIRC. They made me take it off as it is considered an "attachment" and therefore illegal for hunter class in silo. I did not see shifts in temp like the heavier tuners. I could use that one year round without adjusting it.

Lets keep in mind we are influencing barrel harmonics with weight, it is that simple. What is hard is knowing where and how much weight to place. I've seen an ARA benchrest barrel that that simply did not group well at around 3/8-1/2" even with a harrels tuner, but absolutely came alive and grouped very well when a mid barrel tuner was installed in addition to the harrels. That person then used that barrel for at least the next 4 years in competition. General rule of lighter and longer barrel responds better to tuner, but short and fat will still see changes. Any weight on the barrel makes a change of some sort.

I been using light tuners for the last 6 years 4.10-4.50 oz. average weight. the tuners are standard Harrell I turn down on a lathe. I shoot in high 20's to 100+ degree temperatures and make no changes on the tuner settings. I shoot RBA and some ARA. because tuning is about bullet exit timing, I found that with less weight I have a wider window to shoot lot speeds from 324m -330m with no need to make any setting adjustments.

Lee

 

[sarcasmn]

I live in the middle of nowhere Georgia. I usually have to order my ammo online. I have found my Vudoo like SK long range match. Different lots shoot differently in that rifle. I have found a tuner helps me dial in each different lot a little to get the best out of each lot.