Bartlein Barrels Update

[Frank Green]

No, just my first experience running almost all Bartlein's to have one 100+fps slower than others. I wasn't sure if it could be something material related, but my 6GT Modbb is faster than expected. Was just a simple question as I don't have much experience with Modbb.

The material has nothing to do with it. All of the ammunition test barrels we've done with the BB material there hasn't been one question or concern over velocities or accuracy etc...

Actual bore and groove size of the barrel and chamber reamer specs are just one variable. If your previous barrel even if it wasn't a Bartlein had a tighter bore/groove or different spec reamer was tighter... that will drive up pressures which in turn normally bumps velocities. Not all the time but most of the time.

What reamer spec was supposedly used in your barrel? Post a chamber reamer print if you can?

How many chambers has that reamer cut?

Even in the same lot of powder... the powder can have a +/-3% variation in performance.

Bullets vary from lot to lot.

Those three things.... barrel, bullets and powder all have to work together more than anything else.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Frank Green]

That would also be like saying... CM barrels are faster than SS barrels! That's a bunch of BS as well!

The barrel is nothing more than a pressure vessel guys. It's all about dimensions and tolerances.

What do you think is going to happen if you get a lot of bullets that is say +.001" oversize vs a different lot that is only +.0001" over min spec.? Same powder... same case, same primer etc... and typically it will bump pressures and bump velocities.

About 14 years ago... we made some barrels for R&D for the Navy. Caliber was 300WM. They bought barrels from several different places. Our barrels accuracy wise out shot everybody else but they went with a different brand solely because they got more velocity out of the other brand but the other brand is noted for making a tight bore barrel. And they wanted more velocity. I called the Navy up about it and said... nobody asked if we had different bore size options available. Unless you tell me otherwise I'm going to make you min spec. + the tolerance and I'm not going to make you tight bore / undersize barrel. That leads to other issues and pressure is just one of them.

 

[Frank Green]

Oh... the velocity difference in the above example was like only 50fps... but they were all hung up on getting as much velocity as they could. Sorry but that's thinking backwards!

 

[Basic user]

DOD contracts... Do they ever make sense? Wanna see a swingset the Army would build?

 

[oldrifleman]

Oh... the velocity difference in the above example was like only 50fps... but they were all hung up on getting as much velocity as they could. Sorry but that's thinking backwards!

Did the RFP list Velocity as a Critical decision criteria? Does seem to be a weird way to get velocity.

 

[Frank Green]

Did the RFP list Velocity as a Critical decision criteria? Does seem to be a weird way to get velocity.

Nope...

All I got was a email and a phone call for a quote for 2pcs. All I got was 30cal, 5R and 9 twist.

Nothing was ever mentioned about a spec for bore or groove size or was I ever asked if we can do anything differently.

 

[ruger35]

The material has nothing to do with it. All of the ammunition test barrels we've done with the BB material there hasn't been one question or concern over velocities or accuracy etc...

Actual bore and groove size of the barrel and chamber reamer specs are just one variable. If your previous barrel even if it wasn't a Bartlein had a tighter bore/groove or different spec reamer was tighter... that will drive up pressures which in turn normally bumps velocities. Not all the time but most of the time.

What reamer spec was supposedly used in your barrel? Post a chamber reamer print if you can?

How many chambers has that reamer cut?

Even in the same lot of powder... the powder can have a +/-3% variation in performance.

Bullets vary from lot to lot.

Those three things.... barrel, bullets and powder all have to work together more than anything else.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I will compare and see if the reamer is printed on the barrel. We compared 3 Bartlein barrels, 2 by one smith (prefit, one modbb and one normal SS 5R), and one by another (prefit SS 5R). It was all from the same group of handloads on the same day, 2 of the barrels were similar and the one modbb was slower. That barrel has been consistently slower, but accuracy is spot on so no complaints. Our initial thoughts were what you alluded to in your other post about differences in reamer/chambering.

I was genuinely asking out of curiosity and not looking to place blame, just trying to educate myself. We have noticed the powder velocity variance with humidity/temperature. Thanks for the reply and information Frank.

 

[Frank Green]

I will compare and see if the reamer is printed on the barrel. We compared 3 Bartlein barrels, 2 by one smith (prefit, one modbb and one normal SS 5R), and one by another (prefit SS 5R). It was all from the same group of handloads on the same day, 2 of the barrels were similar and the one modbb was slower. That barrel has been consistently slower, but accuracy is spot on so no complaints. Our initial thoughts were what you alluded to in your other post about differences in reamer/chambering.

I was genuinely asking out of curiosity and not looking to place blame, just trying to educate myself. We have noticed the powder velocity variance with humidity/temperature. Thanks for the reply and information Frank.

I didn’t take no offense at all.

If the BB barrel has a different spec reamer…. That can do it.

What’s the difference in velocity between the slow one and a fast one?

How many rounds on them?

 

[ruger35]

It

I didn’t take no offense at all.

If the BB barrel has a different spec reamer…. That can do it.

What’s the difference in velocity between the slow one and a fast one?

How many rounds on them?

It could be a different reamer, it was bought at a different time.

They are ~100fps different, SS barrel has 900 rounds, modbb ~200 rounds.

Both are using the same brand action just for reference.

 

[Basic user]

Nope...

All I got was a email and a phone call for a quote for 2pcs. All I got was 30cal, 5R and 9 twist.

Nothing was ever mentioned about a spec for bore or groove size or was I ever asked if we can do anything differently.

That definitely sounds like some shady shit. Even though the contracts are supposed to be set up to be almost cheat proof, they cheat in them all the time. I see some stupid shit sometimes; it makes me mad.

 

[Frank Green]

It

It could be a different reamer, it was bought at a different time.

They are ~100fps different, SS barrel has 900 rounds, modbb ~200 rounds.

Both are using the same brand action just for reference.

I tell guys up to a 100fps that is normal from barrel to barrel variance. That's just the difference between them. Now if you would've told me say 250fps difference that is out of what I call normal.

Also keep in mind it only has 200 rounds on it vs the other at 900. How you are cleaning and how often in between the number of rounds fired.... and or type of powder being used... the fouling/carbon build up is different right now. With 200 rounds on it... any change in velocity or if you will the barrel settling down should be down.

If pounding nice small groups.... put an extra click on for elevation.

Any questions let me know.

Also I sent you a PM.

 

[lash]

That definitely sounds like some shady shit. Even though the contracts are supposed to be set up to be almost cheat proof, they cheat in them all the time. I see some stupid shit sometimes; it makes me mad.

It’s done in non-mil industry all the time. A spec is often written largely by the preferred vendor and rubber stamped by the customer. But not provided to the remaining vendor base unless insisted upon. Then they’ll find out that the spec is written around a specific product.

Very common.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

That definitely sounds like some shady shit. Even though the contracts are supposed to be set up to be almost cheat proof, they cheat in them all the time. I see some stupid shit sometimes; it makes me mad.

Hahahaha

Contracts set up to be fair? 90% of the time they have decided on a winner before the solicitation goes out. Specs and performance are designed to point to a particular product. I used to do it all the time with contracts, grants and cooperative agreements. Instead of letting the SME buy what they know will work...we have to go through the whole song and dance which ends up costing the gov program office way more in the long run not to mention wasted time.
Ok cool we save $100 per unit overall but just spent $30k in labor and travel to do the compeition... for a $5000 purchase. So those $400 barrels instead of $500 now cost you $3400 a pop. And guess who pays?

Atleast the micropurchase agreement is up to 10k now making these kinds of purchases much easier.

Anything left up to interpretation is a risk. A good procurement specialist solves these problems from the start.

 

[Frank Green]

Hahahaha

Contracts set up to be fair? 90% of the time they have decided on a winner before the solicitation goes out. Specs and performance are designed to point to a particular product. I used to do it all the time with contracts, grants and cooperative agreements. Instead of letting the SME buy what they know will work...we have to go through the whole song and dance which ends up costing the gov program office way more in the long run not to mention wasted time.
Ok cool we save $100 per unit overall but just spent $30k in labor and travel to do the compeition... for a $5000 purchase. So those $400 barrels instead of $500 now cost you $3400 a pop. And guess who pays?

Atleast the micropurchase agreement is up to 10k now making these kinds of purchases much easier.

Anything left up to interpretation is a risk. A good procurement specialist solves these problems from the start.

Yep...

And it cracks me up when I have a inkling that something is off... and I ask questions and most of the time I get the deer in the headlight look on the phone. I can see it. Either they really don't know... or don't want to say anything.

I can't tell you how many times someone called to order ammunition test barrels for 300 and 338cal for ASR testing but didn't know that the rifling twist and profiles and chambers are specific to ASR and totally different than from Saami/CIP spec. I ask the question...is this for ASR or do you want Saami spec.? I get why? Because they're different. The reply is oh! I didn't know that.

 

[lange92]

First Bartlein did a 300 prc build custom chambered. MTU 28” finished. Excellent barrel couldn’t be more pleased. Will def try for more in the future.

 

[DocRDS]

I am very disappointed in Bartlein. My new barrel took 6 shots to sight in and produce a sub-MOA 5 shot group.

<.< >.>

 

[BowChamp]

I am very disappointed in Bartlein. My new barrel took 6 shots to sight in and produce a sub-MOA 5 shot group.

<.< >.>

Yep....I know how you feel!!!

My new Bartlein barrel gives me about 75% hits on a 10" plate and about 40% hits on a 4" plate at 1050 yrds.

I'm thinking I got a DUD!!! Reckon I need to call the warranty department or that @Frank Green feller.....who ever he is!! LOL!!!

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Here is our 30 round test through a Bartlein .30 barrel 1/10 1/11.25 twist shooting .308 175 handloads.
This was our verification group to verify our load was good.
I shot 3 10 round groups for a total 30 round string. Here are the group sizes, the last one made it a bit larger than it may have been otherwise

0.417

0.419

0.841

SD = 8 for 30 rounds.

By the way, my employee Travis is pretty on top of things, and is a 16yo junior shooter. He wrote up this blog post about the load development process we came up with after a lot of thought (in case your wondering about the 30 shot group).
https://www.bisontactical.com/2024/08/18/load-development-process/

 

[sig2009]

View attachment 8654966
Here is our 30 round test through a Bartlein .30 barrel 1/10 twist shooting .308 175 handloads.
This was our verification group to verify our load was good.
I shot 3 10 round groups for a total 30 round string. Here are the group sizes, the last one made it a bit larger than it may have been otherwise

0.417

0.419

0.841

SD = 8 for 30 rounds.

By the way, my employee Travis is pretty on top of things, and is a 16yo junior shooter. He wrote up this blog post about the load development process we came up with after a lot of thought (in case your wondering about the 30 shot group).
https://www.bisontactical.com/2024/08/18/load-development-process/

My Bartlein 1-11.25 does better with the 168/175gn SMK and my handloads and that twist rate was recommended by Southern Precision Rifles who did the chambering.

 

[oldrifleman]

My Bartlein 1-11.25 does better with the 168/175gn SMK and my handloads and that twist rate was recommended by Southern Precision Rifles who did the chambering.

They did one of my .308 Bartlein as well. It loves 175 Bergers

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

My Bartlein 1-11.25 does better with the 168/175gn SMK and my handloads and that twist rate was recommended by Southern Precision Rifles who did the chambering.

My mistake, its actually a 1-11.25 as well, not 1-10.

 

[Milspec Longhorn]

It’s done in non-mil industry all the time. A spec is often written largely by the preferred vendor and rubber stamped by the customer. But not provided to the remaining vendor base unless insisted upon. Then they’ll find out that the spec is written around a specific product.

Very common.

Agree. Saw it all the time in mil/fed. Run the flag up the pole to make it look legit but in reality it was sole source to the preferred vendor. Bogus reasons to reject/disqualify non selects.

 

[Thump_rrr]

I have to give props to Bartlein.
My shooting partner picked up an abandoned project off of someone.
It has a 26" Bartlein 1.25" straight taper barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor that was spun up by Insite Arms here in Canada.
These are the 25 first rounds out of the barel including getting on paper.
We started load development at 40gr of H4350 with 139gr Lapua Scenars in Lapua LP brass and CCI BR-2's but we are going to back it down to 38gr and start again from there since the velocity is so high.
This rifle looks like it's going to be a hammer.
Weight on the rifle in an MDT ACC Elite Using an Ultimatum Deadline action, a Gen 3 Razor 6-36x56 and an MDT GRND Pod (No Mag) is 21lbs 15oz.
It balances about 4" ahead of the magwell.

 

[demarpaint]

They do make a good barrel.

 

[45-90]

I worked in manufacturing for 35 yrs.

Don't mean to be too critical of Bartlein as they are my preferred barrel, right now, but 10 months waiting for a barrel...no thanks.

In real manufacturing you increase production, put more machines on line, train new people...not just the same few crew members working overtime.
Take command of the market.

On contracts if you want to become a big leader, you meet demand.
Taiwan wasn't gonna wait 10 months for their computer robotic parts, anodes, or anything else. Or 24 yrs refuling nuclear reactors .... you are not allowed to fall behind, or have a part put of print slip through. All parts are delivered on time or earlier.
Plus you have to meet emergency orders, you put on as many people as needed to complete the emergency, and still keep production orders up.
One place went from less than 50 machinists, welders, to over 200 employees taking up several city blocks.
Filling buildings with CNC machines, some with robotic loaders, that operate all by themselves, all day and all night.

Waiting that long is un-American.
Sorry, Bartlein but, you earned a negative here, I would be pissed if I had to wait 10 months for a barrel, cause I won't tolerate that either.
Life is too short.

And would quit doing business with those who do not deliver the goods, as others provide good barrels too, this is a serious fault that can be remedied, no excuses, no whining.

But luckily I usually only wait 7 days for my Bartlein barrels, from order to my door.
Then build the rifle soon as the barrel arrives, out shooting it the next day, as I've collected all the rifle parts by the time the barrel arrives.
Pitty the poor, stupid, brainwashed, slob who would actually wait 10 months for a commonly used barrel to be made..I won't.

 

[Rob01]

I worked in manufacturing for 35 yrs.

Don't mean to be too critical of Bartlein as they are my preferred barrel, right now, but 10 months waiting for a barrel...no thanks.

In real manufacturing you increase production, put more machines on line, train new people...not just the same few crew members working overtime.
Take command of the market.

On contracts if you want to become a big leader, you meet demand.
Taiwan wasn't gonna wait 10 months for their computer robotic parts, anodes, or anything else. Or 24 yrs refuling nuclear reactors .... you are not allowed to fall behind, or have a part put of print slip through. All parts are delivered on time or earlier.
Plus you have to meet emergency orders, you put on as many people as needed to complete the emergency, and still keep production orders up.
One place went from less than 50 machinists, welders, to over 200 employees taking up several city blocks.
Filling buildings with CNC machines, some with robotic loaders, that operate all by themselves, all day and all night.

Waiting that long is un-American.
Sorry, Bartlein but, you earned a negative here, I would be pissed if I had to wait 10 months for a barrel, cause I won't tolerate that either.
Life is too short.

And would quit doing business with those who do not deliver the goods, as others provide good barrels too, this is a serious fault that can be remedied, no excuses, no whining.

But luckily I usually only wait 7 days for my Bartlein barrels, from order to my door.
Then build the rifle soon as the barrel arrives, out shooting it the next day, as I've collected all the rifle parts by the time the barrel arrives.
Pitty the poor, stupid, brainwashed, slob who would actually wait 10 months for a commonly used barrel to be made..I won't.

Someone didn’t get an Easter basket this morning. lol

 

[oldrifleman]

I can find Bartlein blanks in a heartbeat, they are literally everywhere. Yes you are going to wait 8-12 months if you want something unique ( my special 1.05 Straght 22 lr barrel for instance). If you want a 6mm M24 contour they are everywhere. I also work in a rather largish manufacturing realm and know that quality, and I mean documented, proven standards, means you go on contract for parts up to 4 years to ensure they get you when you need them.

 

[GenericBadGuy]

Just wait till he sees the TBAC backorder estimate .

 

[Baron23]

I worked in manufacturing for 35 yrs.

Don't mean to be too critical of Bartlein as they are my preferred barrel, right now, but 10 months waiting for a barrel...no thanks.

In real manufacturing you increase production, put more machines on line, train new people...not just the same few crew members working overtime.
Take command of the market.

On contracts if you want to become a big leader, you meet demand.
Taiwan wasn't gonna wait 10 months for their computer robotic parts, anodes, or anything else. Or 24 yrs refuling nuclear reactors .... you are not allowed to fall behind, or have a part put of print slip through. All parts are delivered on time or earlier.
Plus you have to meet emergency orders, you put on as many people as needed to complete the emergency, and still keep production orders up.
One place went from less than 50 machinists, welders, to over 200 employees taking up several city blocks.
Filling buildings with CNC machines, some with robotic loaders, that operate all by themselves, all day and all night.

Waiting that long is un-American.
Sorry, Bartlein but, you earned a negative here, I would be pissed if I had to wait 10 months for a barrel, cause I won't tolerate that either.
Life is too short.

And would quit doing business with those who do not deliver the goods, as others provide good barrels too, this is a serious fault that can be remedied, no excuses, no whining.

But luckily I usually only wait 7 days for my Bartlein barrels, from order to my door.
Then build the rifle soon as the barrel arrives, out shooting it the next day, as I've collected all the rifle parts by the time the barrel arrives.
Pitty the poor, stupid, brainwashed, slob who would actually wait 10 months for a commonly used barrel to be made..I won't.

I'm pretty sure that the industries you worked in didn't suffer the very great risk of a major political party vehemently working to gut your industry.

That would put a damper on capital equipment investment and employee growth. See what I'm saying.

 

[Thump_rrr]

Trying to grow to keep a constant delivery schedule is a recipe for disaster.
Just trying to bring in qualified personnel and getting them to work within your standards is difficult enough but trying to hit a target moving in different directions at all times is nearly impossible.

Even if you can find the personnel you still need the capital expenditure for equipment, building space and also materials if your material supplier can produce the additional material.

 

[45-90]

I'm pretty sure that the industries you worked in didn't suffer the very great risk of a major political party vehemently working to gut your industry.

That would put a damper on capital equipment investment and employee growth. See what I'm saying.

Total LOL....That would be the nuclear industry 24 yrs, which was totally political on every side around the world.
Remember 3 mile Island, the Exxon Valdez, Exxon was in the nuclear business, Union Carbide India disaster, killed 1200 people later they say double, I was running a 6 spindle to refuel their reactor, and got an instant cancelation.
Russian Chernobyl disaster.
Early closures of nuclear reactors like Trojan, and one in California.
Washington canceled 5 nuclear power plants in various stages of completion.
Then the N reactor shut down, the DOD decided it had made enough material for your nuclear bombs.
Not only re fueled water reactors for Westinghouse nuclear fuels industry around the world but produced 70% of the weapons grade material for the DOD at the N reactor before it was shut down.

Never missed a due date, never sent a scrap part..ever....even got a gold quality pin from Westinghouse Nuclear fuels division for my effort.
Developed a positive method to pull spent fuel rods from the reactors core, when they were having trouble doing so...got a bonus and and order for 1.375 million parts.
In a dying industry still we were world competitive to the end, buying new CNC machines, back to college to learn programming, while still running some of the old fashioned machine tools.

Went to computers, robotics, and build anything you want for a price machining after the neclear collapse...again the company does business world wide, with contracts to fill and emergency orders to complete.
No orders fall behind...it's your job to make sure you are on schedule, the world has very demanding customers...think China, Taiwan, and Japan these people are demanding, they expect perfection on time.
And you give it to them.

Do not make a mistake or embarrass the company or you are fired...no clause dismissal is signed and every idea you develop there belongs to the company.

It's how successful businesses build their companies, you have to be aggressive and take certain risks.

Falling way behind, not meeting demand is unacceptable to me ...because I did it.

Bartlein like too many American companies fall into the same category falling behind, not meeting customers demand, afraid to make needed investments, doing risk and efficiency assessments...and just let it happen.

No, it's not an acceptable business model to me.

 

[oldrifleman]

Total LOL....That would be the nuclear industry 24 yrs, which was totally political on every side around the world.
Remember 3 mile Island, the Exxon Valdez, Exxon was in the nuclear business, Union Carbide India disaster, killed 1200 people later they say double, I was running a 6 spindle to refuel their reactor, and got an instant cancelation.
Russian Chernobyl disaster.
Early closures of nuclear reactors like Trojan, and one in California.
Washington canceled 5 nuclear power plants in various stages of completion.
Then the N reactor shut down, the DOD decided it had made enough material for your nuclear bombs.
Not only re fueled water reactors for Westinghouse nuclear fuels industry around the world but produced 70% of the weapons grade material for the DOD at the N reactor before it was shut down.

Never missed a due date, never sent a scrap part..ever....even got a gold quality pin from Westinghouse Nuclear fuels division for my effort.
Developed a positive method to pull spent fuel rods from the reactors core, when they were having trouble doing so...got a bonus and and order for 1.375 million parts.
In a dying industry still we were world competitive to the end, buying new CNC machines, back to college to learn programming, while still running some of the old fashioned machine tools.

Went to computers, robotics, and build anything you want for a price machining after the neclear collapse...again the company does business world wide, with contracts to fill and emergency orders to complete.
No orders fall behind...it's your job to make sure you are on schedule, the world has very demanding customers...think China, Taiwan, and Japan these people are demanding, they expect perfection on time.
And you give it to them.

Do not make a mistake or embarrass the company or you are fired...no clause dismissal is signed and every idea you develop there belongs to the company.

It's how successful businesses build their companies, you have to be aggressive and take certain risks.

Falling way behind, not meeting demand is unacceptable to me ...because I did it.

Bartlein like too many American companies fall into the same category falling behind, not meeting customers demand, afraid to make needed investments, doing risk and efficiency assessments...and just let it happen.

No, it's not an acceptable business model to me.

Did they promise you something on a certain date? I received my 22lr barrel right in the middle of the delivery window that was in November. If they missed a date state it. If you are just pissed that their backlog is that long get over it, it happens everyday in most industries. Quality shops build in cycles and are based on long standing orders, which in their have a 8-12 month lead time. I work on parts with a 5-6 year lead time and raw material lead time longer than that. This a fact of life

 

[TheOE800]

I'm pretty sure that the industries you worked in didn't suffer the very great risk of a major political party vehemently working to gut your industry.

That would put a damper on capital equipment investment and employee growth. See what I'm saying.

Not to mention the financial environment pertinent to capex..

 

[GenericBadGuy]

Bartlein is producing barrels to make a profit not develop nuclear power plants.

They are balancing demand with labor and supplier costs. Not 'scaling up' ensures a sustainable long term business model. It doesn't take a nuclear engineer to understand this. Bitching about it also doesn't change that.

 

[Frank Green]

I worked in manufacturing for 35 yrs.

Don't mean to be too critical of Bartlein as they are my preferred barrel, right now, but 10 months waiting for a barrel...no thanks.

In real manufacturing you increase production, put more machines on line, train new people...not just the same few crew members working overtime.
Take command of the market.

In real manufacturing you increase production, put more machines on line, train new people...not just the same few crew members working overtime.
Take command of the market.

I've been in manufacturing now for 40 years. Gun barrels themselves almost 30.

Here is the issue... it's not as easy as you or some others would think.

We've put more machines online over time... but you have a domino effect... we can say... lets build another rifler and we are actually toying with the idea again.... but you have to look at the whole picture... you have to look back at the whole process.... can the bore reamers and prelapping processes keep up... if you say yes... then you go back further... can the guys in contouring/lathe work keep up... if you say no... your then adding another contouring machine... and a guy to run it.... if you are adding a lathe for contour work... then you have to go back to the gun drilling.... can the gun drills keep up to feed the lathes and the whole process etc...

Actually looking at getting another gun drill as well.

You also have to look at the capital investment... is the work load going to be there a few months or a year from now etc... Yes I don't see it going anywhere.

Right now... it's not actual machine time that is the issue... it's the people time is what we are lacking. We cannot for the most part find quality people to work. One is salary... even if we agree on a starting salary.... right now the only open spots are on 2nd shift. Nobody wants to work 2nd shift. For the most part we don't have a 3rd shift so don't even go there.

At the peak of covid... we ran the shop 24 hours a day... and for several months... 7 days a week. Daytime guys started at 4am.. worked till 4pm and the 2nd shift guys came in at around 3:30pm/4pm time frame and worked till 4am. We alternated crews every other weekend so guys had time off for the weekends primarily on Sundays. Maybe 5 to 7 of us worked one Sunday and then a different group of guys worked the next Sunday. For a span of about 9 months there where 3 to 4 guys that were putting in 35 hours a week of overtime!!!!!

We hired two guys back in Nov and Dec. time frame. I interviewed another guy and we agreed on wages etc.... took about 4 weeks of going back and forth. He knew up front.... he had to start on 2nd shift. I told him there will be weeks where you can come in and work 1st shift but cannot guarantee it all the time. He plenty of experience in drilling and turning and doing finished test barrel work. He was a perfect fit... then his wife said no to 2nd shift... that killed it.

Also we are not just going to hire anyone just to throw people at the problem. That doesn't solve anything.

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

At one point at the height of covid... our lead times went out to 14 months. We are at about 8-9 right now. Don't get me wrong... if we can get it done sooner... we're not going to sit on it and make you wait.

We've also been making changes in the shop on how we are handling orders...and we are seeing progress but it's not going to happen in a month or two.

Lead times from the steel mills went from about 5 months to about 14 months during covid. Heck even last year.... I ordered some material in March of 2024... received it on Dec. 4, 2024. Right now I will the mills are at 7 months.

 

[demarpaint]

I've been in manufacturing now for 40 years. Gun barrels themselves almost 30.

Here is the issue... it's not as easy as you or some others would think.

We've put more machines online over time... but you have a domino effect... we can say... lets build another rifler and we are actually toying with the idea again.... but you have to look at the whole picture... you have to look back at the whole process.... can the bore reamers and prelapping processes keep up... if you say yes... then you go back further... can the guys in contouring/lathe work keep up... if you say no... your then adding another contouring machine... and a guy to run it.... if you are adding a lathe for contour work... then you have to go back to the gun drilling.... can the gun drills keep up to feed the lathes and the whole process etc...

Actually looking at getting another gun drill as well.

You also have to look at the capital investment... is the work load going to be there a few months or a year from now etc... Yes I don't see it going anywhere.

Right now... it's not actual machine time that is the issue... it's the people time is what we are lacking. We cannot for the most part find quality people to work. One is salary... even if we agree on a starting salary.... right now the only open spots are on 2nd shift. Nobody wants to work 2nd shift. For the most part we don't have a 3rd shift so don't even go there.

At the peak of covid... we ran the shop 24 hours a day... and for several months... 7 days a week. Daytime guys started at 4am.. worked till 4pm and the 2nd shift guys came in at around 3:30pm/4pm time frame and worked till 4am. We alternated crews every other weekend so guys had time off for the weekends primarily on Sundays. Maybe 5 to 7 of us worked one Sunday and then a different group of guys worked the next Sunday. For a span of about 9 months there where 3 to 4 guys that were putting in 35 hours a week of overtime!!!!!

We hired two guys back in Nov and Dec. time frame. I interviewed another guy and we agreed on wages etc.... took about 4 weeks of going back and forth. He knew up front.... he had to start on 2nd shift. I told him there will be weeks where you can come in and work 1st shift but cannot guarantee it all the time. He plenty of experience in drilling and turning and doing finished test barrel work. He was a perfect fit... then his wife said no to 2nd shift... that killed it.

Also we are not just going to hire anyone just to throw people at the problem. That doesn't solve anything.

Later, Frank

I feel your pain, hiring good people is tough. There's a big risk of the quality going down the tubes. I saw in my business, that scaling up was not easy. I was fortunate I had good people and avoided the temptation to grow too big where quality would suffer. I'm glad I retired and now I can pick and choose if I decide to work. Wishing you the best of luck.

 

[Frank Green]

I feel your pain, hiring good people is tough. There's a big risk of the quality going down the tubes. I saw in my business, that scaling up was not easy. I was fortunate I had good people and avoided the temptation to grow too big where quality would suffer. I'm glad I retired and now I can pick and choose if I decide to work. Wishing you the best of luck.

You got that right bud!

It's worse having a smaller pool of people to choose from as well. In my opinion you can thank covid and the far left for tanking the workforce that's effected all of manufacturing.

Our oldest boy is a tool designer and does programming as well. His place got wind that he was looking at a different shop to go to... called him into the office... asked him not to go... the raise they gave him... I was floored. He was shocked himself and he didn't even ask for more money! This was just two weeks ago.

 

[demarpaint]

You got that right bud!

It's worse having a smaller pool of people to choose from as well. In my opinion you can thank covid and the far left for tanking the workforce that's effected all of manufacturing.

Our oldest boy is a tool designer and does programming as well. His place got wind that he was looking at a different shop to go to... called him into the office... asked him not to go... the raise they gave him... I was floored. He was shocked himself and he didn't even ask for more money! This was just two weeks ago.

I agree. Smart business people in a profession that needs skilled workers knows how tough competent good help is to find. That's why they offered your son more money! Finding qualified help is tough, then can said help do the right job? There lies the risk. There are people who can talk a good job, delivering a good job can be a totally different story! I don't miss those days one bit!!!!!!!!!! I had a handful of friends I made from joining a trade association, we were competitors, but we respected one another. With two of those friends we'd share help, if one of us was slow, or in need of help for a big project. The agreement was we'd pay the same salary and we wouldn't try and steal the guy. It was a great way to get good help in a pinch, and good workers stayed busy. Win win, it worked well for all parties concerned.