Benefits of practicing with a .22lr vs just dry firing more

[TheLimey]

Trying to get better at PRS (just shot my first match) and use my range time efficiently.

I'm looking for a .22 for practice. I read about and am starting to understand the benefits of practicing fundamentals with dry fire. What are the benefits of introducing a .22 to my practice - as opposed to just drying firing more with my 6.5cr? Do you tweak your drills to handle the limitations of that cartridge? Do you just do similar stuff but within, say, 200 yards.

Which .22 should I buy? I want something out of the box really and a cheapish scope - quick start. I'm not going to spend 3k

Was thinking either Ruger Precision or Savage B22. I was leaning towards the Savage (MDT chassis) with a $400 Vortex Diamondback. I know it's not high end but maybe it's enough. Any other recs welcome.

(For ref, my regular rig is a Tikka Tac A1 6.5 with Leupold LRP FFP)

 

[onion]

I'm partial to the CZ 457, they're really nice little guns. Ergos are a little more traditional though, so I'm not sure how you feel about that. I guess it depends on how similar you want it to be to your Tikka.

 

[david8989]

I do both in my PRS training. Dryfire is great because you can do it at home and weather won't effect you. But .22 practice gives you more effective feedback imo. But your overthinking things, set up a 1/2" dot on a piece of white paper at 50yds and go ape shit crazy practicing positional shooting. Making good wind calls is important but they will end up contaminating the purpose of that training. You want to know if your fundamentals are sound enough to hit a 1moa target from every position you shoot from. Shooting at 50yds on paper will give you as accurate a representation of your skill as a centerfire rifle at 1-200yds. I shoot mpa chassis in prs so I went with their cz457 in the mpa chassis topped with a vortex diamondback tactical and was all in at $1800. Not cheap but also not $3k either. I hope this helps some.

 

[sleeplz]

I am in the camp that 22 and dry fire will only get you so far. You have to mix in dummy rounds with your live center fire rounds in the magazine. Put the rounds in randomly of course so that you don't know which trigger press could be live or show your flinch when the firing pin hits an empty case.

 

[High Desert duck]

The 22 alone will help until you use it too much without mixing in a bunch of centerfire your recoil management game will suffer.

 

[TheLimey]

The 22 alone will help until you use it too much without mixing in a bunch of centerfire your recoil management game will suffer.

I hear you ... I'll keep the 6.5 in there for sure. Love shooting it.

 

[TheLimey]

I am in the camp that 22 and dry fire will only get you so far. You have to mix in dummy rounds with your live center fire rounds in the magazine. Put the rounds in randomly of course so that you don't know which trigger press could be live or show your flinch when the firing pin hits an empty case.

Good call on watching the flinch. I've noticed it a couple of times when I've pulled the trigger while forgetting I didn't get a round in there. I think I might do it when I've built up the shot in my head ..like "I'm not going to miss this one"... maybe tense up a bit.

 

[TheLimey]

I do both in my PRS training. Dryfire is great because you can do it at home and weather won't effect you. But .22 practice gives you more effective feedback imo. But your overthinking things, set up a 1/2" dot on a piece of white paper at 50yds and go ape shit crazy practicing positional shooting. Making good wind calls is important but they will end up contaminating the purpose of that training. You want to know if your fundamentals are sound enough to hit a 1moa target from every position you shoot from. Shooting at 50yds on paper will give you as accurate a representation of your skill as a centerfire rifle at 1-200yds. I shoot mpa chassis in prs so I went with their cz457 in the mpa chassis topped with a vortex diamondback tactical and was all in at $1800. Not cheap but also not $3k either. I hope this helps some.

" You want to know if your fundamentals are sound enough to hit a 1moa target from every position you shoot from." ... yes ...I like that. I like keeping the live fire without blasting a buck a shot. I've layered in prone, offhand and seated/kneeling with ratchet strap/2/4. But I need to figure out how to do the different standing heights. I'm not the guy hauling a step ladder to the range (yet).

I'm inclined to like CZ stuff but I've only shot or held their pistols. It's a bit of a problem buying stuff you've never even held let alone shot ...never tried a 22 tikka, CZ, Ruger PR or B22. But if I can achieve gains in the fundamentals as you describe, whatever I get will be good I guess. I can't quite get my head around buying a rifle then immediately swapping out the chassis ...I seem to be in a minority though... I'm sure I'll come around.

 

[TheLimey]

I'm partial to the CZ 457, they're really nice little guns. Ergos are a little more traditional though, so I'm not sure how you feel about that. I guess it depends on how similar you want it to be to your Tikka.

I love trad rifles...and I'm inclined to like the CZ but never fired it. Maybe I should buy a Tikka, CZ, Ruger and Savage ;-) ...it's only money.

 

[david8989]

" You want to know if your fundamentals are sound enough to hit a 1moa target from every position you shoot from." ... yes ...I like that. I like keeping the live fire without blasting a buck a shot. I've layered in prone, offhand and seated/kneeling with ratchet strap/2/4. But I need to figure out how to do the different standing heights. I'm not the guy hauling a step ladder to the range (yet).

I'm inclined to like CZ stuff but I've only shot or held their pistols. It's a bit of a problem buying stuff you've never even held let alone shot ...never tried a 22 tikka, CZ, Ruger PR or B22. But if I can achieve gains in the fundamentals as you describe, whatever I get will be good I guess. I can't quite get my head around buying a rifle then immediately swapping out the chassis ...I seem to be in a minority though... I'm sure I'll come around.

So something that I picked up off a podcast from Phillip Velayo, was to just use a tripod and a gamechanger bag at these basic heights: low kneeling, medium kneeling, high kneeling, low standing, high standing. By just bringing those 2 "prop" items to the range I'm able to practice 5 different height positions that will work in conjunction with your "building perfect fundamentals" practice your doing.

 

[sleeplz]

So something that I picked up off a podcast from Phillip Velayo, was to just use a tripod and a gamechanger bag at these basic heights: low kneeling, medium kneeling, high kneeling, low standing, high standing. By just bringing those 2 "prop" items to the range I'm able to practice 5 different height positions that will work in conjunction with your "building perfect fundamentals" practice your doing.

Its a great idea and exactly what I do. I'll set up a small course of fire, run a timer, and have dummy rounds mixed in. Take mental notes on any reticle bounce caused by pulling the trigger on an empty round and making sure I can see the impacts with good follow through with live rounds.

 

[TheLimey]

So something that I picked up off a podcast from Phillip Velayo, was to just use a tripod and a gamechanger bag at these basic heights: low kneeling, medium kneeling, high kneeling, low standing, high standing. By just bringing those 2 "prop" items to the range I'm able to practice 5 different height positions that will work in conjunction with your "building perfect fundamentals" practice your doing.

Excellent idea..and lighter than a step ladder... I’ll start pricing them up... any recs appreciated.

 

[david8989]

Its a great idea and exactly what I do. I'll set up a small course of fire, run a timer, and have dummy rounds mixed in. Take mental notes on any reticle bounce caused by pulling the trigger on an empty round and making sure I can see the impacts with good follow through with live rounds.

I've noticed some definite gains using this method and paper targets @ 100yds. I definitely need to mix in some dummy rounds though, I kinda forgot about that training tactic. Happy training

 

[david8989]

Excellent idea..and lighter than a step ladder... I’ll start pricing them up... any recs appreciated.

I haven't had the budget yet to go RRS but the 2 budget tripods I have used are the shadowtech pig-0311 which is only like $138 and works okay. It's solid and heavy but could be a bit more stable. The one I'm using now is the Innorel RT90c that was $300ish and I believe it works great! So just a couple budget minded options for ya

 

[xtacleone]

I dont get this whole "practicing with a .22" phenomenon. It has never helped me. I know you can match triggers, but the weight of a long range center fire rifle and recoil is just too different. I like getting as much trigger time as possible and if .22 helps then please ignore me. But, I just dont think there is meaningful parity between shooting a 6.5 /.308 etc and 22lr, unless one is new to shooting. That being said, get an Anshutz if you are hunting for a good 22lr for precision shooting.

 

[308pirate]

I'm inclined to like CZ stuff but I've only shot or held their pistols. It's a bit of a problem buying stuff you've never even held let alone shot ..

Get a 457 Varmint and put it in a KRAG Bravo chassis. If you end up not liking, which I seriously doubt, you can easily recoup 80 - 90% of your expense.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I dont get this whole "practicing with a .22" phenomenon. It has never helped me. I know you can match triggers, but the weight of a long range center fire rifle and recoil is just too different. I like getting as much trigger time as possible and if .22 helps then please ignore me. But, I just dont think there is meaningful parity between shooting a 6.5 /.308 etc and 22lr, unless one is new to shooting. That being said, get an Anshutz if you are hunting for a good 22lr for precision shooting.

I promise if you take two people of equal skill, let one shoot 10-20k rnds of .22 and the other 3,000 rounds of centerfire, the one with the .22 will be a noticeably better marksmen.

If you aren’t seeing any value in .22, you’re absolutely doing it wrong.

This would be the same as claiming dryfire doesn’t help.

 

[xtacleone]

I promise if you take two people of equal skill, let one shoot 10-20k rnds of .22 and the other 3,000 rounds of centerfire, the one with the .22 will be a noticeably better marksmen.

If you aren’t seeing any value in .22, you’re absolutely doing it wrong.

This would be the same as claiming dryfire doesn’t help.

No, it would not be the same as “claiming dry fire doesnt help”.

If you dry fire your comp rifle / hunting rifle, then you are utilizing the same trigger, cheek weld, scope, fitment etc. Most people do not clone their 6.5 creedmoors , 308s, 300s etc to equivalent 22 rifles. AR shooters are the one exception.

Also, I don’t agree with you at all. “if you take two people of equal skill, let one shoot 10-20k rnds of .22 and the other 3,000 rounds of centerfire, the one with the .22 will be a noticeably better marksmen.”

There is no way to prove your claim, you are just making assertions. Recoil and recoil anticipation have massive effects that I think you are severely down playing. I think that claim is absurd. The guy or girl who shoots 10k rounds on his 22lr might be better at shooting 22lr and 22lr only. I’ve never shot even close to 2k rounds out of my 6.5 cm but I gaurentee you I will shoot that rifle better than you will. That’s because I know that rifle, it’s set for me I practice with it and am used to it. I am sure you can say the same thing about your rifles in relation to me and not just because you shoot 22lr. We all shoot 22lr. We all like 22lr. We have all shot thousands and thousands of rounds of 22lr. If I was not clear in my first post, I meant to say that I feel that 22lr is not a meaningful surrogate for shooting precision centerfire rifles or long range shooting. It’s just my opinion. I remain unconvinced of your proposition. I am sure you are right and I am just “doing it wrong”. If I get it right you will the first to know. But I think we will just have to respectfully disagree.

 

[ScottDWallace]

I’ve never shot even close to 2k rounds out of my 6.5 cm but I gaurentee you I will shoot that rifle better than you will. That’s because I know that rifle, it’s set for me I practice with it and am used to it.

Best thing I ever did for my competitive shooting was buy a Vudoo. And yes, it's setup EXACTLY like my CF rig. It is such a good training aid that the only CF shooting I do now a days is zero and chrony verification the week of the match. And recoil??? You must need a better brake on your 6.5CM. A bunny fart has more recoil than my 260Rem.

Perhaps @Dthomas3523 and I are in a different place in our shooting than you. Personally, I get way more benefit from drills that test my positional stability, time to first shot, fundamentals practice (Every time out), etc. I have put in the work and pulling a trigger is just that and it doesn't matter what caliber.

Maybe it's not for everyone, but for me, I have had a whole lot more W's next to my name on the results sheet after building my Vudoo.

 

[Nik H]

Funny that no one mentioned the improvement in being able to call wind better when shooting a 22LR. My wind skills noticeably improved. Best of all, I don't need a 1,000 yard range. Which is good as I don't have access to one unless I drive 3.5 hours one way so don't do it more than once a month. Not to mention the cost of firing that much center fire ammo to become a proficient wind caller.

Go shoot a .22LR @ 300 yards at a steel plate in the wind and tell me you won't learn something that you can't if only dry firing a center fire stick.

I do both and I can tell you both are necessary elements to improve.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Funny that no one mentioned the improvement in being able to call wind better when shooting a 22LR. My wind skills noticeably improved. Best of all, I don't need a 1,000 yard range. Which is good as I don't have access to one unless I drive 3.5 hours one way so don't do it more than once a month. Not to mention the cost of firing that much center fire ammo to become a proficient wind caller.

Go shoot a .22LR @ 300 yards at a steel plate in the wind and tell me you won't learn something that you can't if only dry firing a center fire stick.

I do both and I can tell you both are necessary elements to improve.

I find that you need switchy wind days (for centerfire or .22) to be able to really practice wind. Normal steady wind days, once you get the call, it’s kinda over. Or, find some sort of pit or area with hills and such whee the wind will have odd effects. Which is why a rarely talk about wind practice from shooting instead of practice with kestrel when not shooting.

But I totally agree. The less a round performs in the wind at a given distance, they better you will become at shooting in wind.

 

[Nik H]

I find that you need switchy wind days (for centerfire or .22) to be able to really practice wind. Normal steady wind days, once you get the call, it’s kinda over. Or, find some sort of pit or area with hills and such whee the wind will have odd effects. Which is why a rarely talk about wind practice from shooting instead of practice with kestrel when not shooting.

But I totally agree. The less a round performs in the wind at a given distance, they better you will become at shooting in wind.

Agree....

My local range is a pit in a low lying area...talk about changing at the drop of a hat. It is really a good place to practice

 

[xtacleone]

Best thing I ever did for my competitive shooting was buy a Vudoo. And yes, it's setup EXACTLY like my CF rig. It is such a good training aid that the only CF shooting I do now a days is zero and chrony verification the week of the match. And recoil??? You must need a better brake on your 6.5CM. A bunny fart has more recoil than my 260Rem.

Perhaps @Dthomas3523 and I are in a different place in our shooting than you. Personally, I get way more benefit from drills that test my positional stability, time to first shot, fundamentals practice (Every time out), etc. I have put in the work and pulling a trigger is just that and it doesn't matter what caliber.

Maybe it's not for everyone, but for me, I have had a whole lot more W's next to my name on the results sheet after building my Vudoo.

Hey Scott, it sounds like you have a killer setup. I never heard of Vudoo Gunworks before, impressive. OP is talking about $500 rilfes, not including optics. Vudoos are $2500-$3500. There is a bit of a difference there.

It seems like you are intentionally taking me out of context and misrepresenting my position. I said "Most people do not clone their 6.5 creedmoors , 308s, 300s etc to equivalent 22 rifles". I did not say no one does this. You clearly are not most people. You clearly have more money to throw at this stuff than most people. That being said, I respect and envy your Vudoo, well done.

Also, you are misrepresenting my position on recoil. I was clearly saying that 6.5, AND .30 cals, etc. have significantly more recoil than 22lr. Not to mention a significantly louder report . This is a fact. I dont know why we are talking past each other on this. OP seems to be new to PRS and might be affected more by these things.

I am sure OP can get a lot of shooting 22lr. I enjoy it, too. I have been shooting 22lr for thirty years. Maybe I just take it for granted and not giving it the respect it deserves as I learned marksmanship on the 22 but I dialed in my precision shooting on "bigger" rifles. I just personally prefer to put more time into shooting my .308s, 300win,6.5s other center fires, I prefer the consistency and increased accuracy. That attitude might change as I start depleting my ammo reserves in these crazy times.

 

[TheLimey]

Thanks for the responses. Ended up with the Ruger Precision 22. It has a knock off atlas and my cheapo air rifle leupold on it. Pretty cool rifle I think ...I put a couple hundred cheap Aguila lead thru it. Then a tested a few Eley rounds .... it shot the Eley Target ammo I put thru it OK pretty well ...but I could only get 3/4 inch at 50. Not sure if that is as good as it gets.

There's no denying it's radically different from firing my 6.5. I guess my goal is practice different positions and get stable... my biggest problem. If I can find a cheap ish ammo that can hit a 1 or 2 inch sticker at 100... maybe I can infer that my stability is somewhat good/getting better. Point taken on recoil and recoil anticipation though.

 

[Dthomas3523]

No, it would not be the same as “claiming dry fire doesnt help”.

If you dry fire your comp rifle / hunting rifle, then you are utilizing the same trigger, cheek weld, scope, fitment etc. Most people do not clone their 6.5 creedmoors , 308s, 300s etc to equivalent 22 rifles. AR shooters are the one exception.

Also, I don’t agree with you at all. “if you take two people of equal skill, let one shoot 10-20k rnds of .22 and the other 3,000 rounds of centerfire, the one with the .22 will be a noticeably better marksmen.”

There is no way to prove your claim, you are just making assertions. Recoil and recoil anticipation have massive effects that I think you are severely down playing. I think that claim is absurd. The guy or girl who shoots 10k rounds on his 22lr might be better at shooting 22lr and 22lr only. I’ve never shot even close to 2k rounds out of my 6.5 cm but I gaurentee you I will shoot that rifle better than you will. That’s because I know that rifle, it’s set for me I practice with it and am used to it. I am sure you can say the same thing about your rifles in relation to me and not just because you shoot 22lr. We all shoot 22lr. We all like 22lr. We have all shot thousands and thousands of rounds of 22lr. If I was not clear in my first post, I meant to say that I feel that 22lr is not a meaningful surrogate for shooting precision centerfire rifles or long range shooting. It’s just my opinion. I remain unconvinced of your proposition. I am sure you are right and I am just “doing it wrong”. If I get it right you will the first to know. But I think we will just have to respectfully disagree.

Your opinion is wrong. Read more and post less. You don’t know enough to be giving advice based on your posts on the site so far.

There are people on this site that can pick up your rifle and run circles around you after a minute or two messing with the trigger and such. That’s the thing about fundamentals, they work with any rifle out there. You don’t need to have the same trigger, stock, optic, etc etc if you have proper fundamentals.

Go burn out a few barrels on your 6.5 before you even begin to give advice.

 

[xtacleone]

sounds like you have a good set up, OP. A friend of mine has the RP in 22, loves it.

 

[xtacleone]

Your opinion is wrong. Read more and post less. You don’t know enough to be giving advice based on your posts on the site so far.

There are people on this site that can pick up your rifle and run circles around you after a minute or two messing with the trigger and such. That’s the thing about fundamentals, they work with any rifle out there. You don’t need to have the same trigger, stock, optic, etc etc if you have proper fundamentals.

Go burn out a few barrels on your 6.5 before you even begin to give advice.

Ma’am with all due respect, I don’t know what your deal is why you are so obsessed with me and 6.5 cm.

“There are people on this site that can pick up your rifle and run circles around you after a minute or two messing with the trigger and such”

Ok, can your dad beat up my dad, too?

Sorry lady , but I am going to politely say adios. You have run circles around me and my rifle(s) and I am exhausted.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ma’am with all due respect, I don’t know what your deal is why you are so obsessed with me and 6.5 cm.

“There are people on this site that can pick up your rifle and run circles around you after a minute or two messing with the trigger and such”

Ok, can your dad beat up my dad, too?

Sorry lady , but I am going to politely say adios. You have run circles around me and my rifle(s) and I am exhausted.

Let me help you on your way.

 

[Flightmurse]

So let me preface this by saying that I am new to precision rifles and looking at starting competitions, but I have some experience in uspsa pistol shooting. There is some comparison with using SIRT guns/air soft vs just dry fire.

If you are using it for fundamentals (trigger control, etc) you are better served dry firing and learning to call your shot. This means you know exactly where the crosshairs were when you pulled the trigger, and could write your impact down on a target. The benefit of .22’s is learning to call wind and drop on a compressed range. I am limited to 300 yards at my range, and shooting that far with center fires is really not pushing it around unless it’s really windy.

 

[Dthomas3523]

So let me preface this by saying that I am new to precision rifles and looking at starting competitions, but I have some experience in uspsa pistol shooting. There is some comparison with using SIRT guns/air soft vs just dry fire.

If you are using it for fundamentals (trigger control, etc) you are better served dry firing and learning to call your shot. This means you know exactly where the crosshairs were when you pulled the trigger, and could write your impact down on a target. The benefit of .22’s is learning to call wind and drop on a compressed range. I am limited to 300 yards at my range, and shooting that far with center fires is really not pushing it around unless it’s really windy.

Wind is the absolute most over emphasized thing people insist on “practicing.”

Unless it’s a very switchy wind day, once you get the wind call (usually first few shots), your wind “practice” is done for the day. This is the same with a .22 as it is with centerfire. Wind practice should be done with a kestrel when you’re not even at the range. Read wind, take reading, compare and learn.

95% of shooters ain’t missing most of their shots due to bad wind calls. They lose because of either bad fundamentals or bad positions/use of time on the clock.

You can place in the upper pack or even win matches with absolutely zero wind reading. If you can hold on the side into the wind, spot your miss or impact (if not center plate), make the adjustment, and hit the other 7-11 shots (stage dependent), you will place very high or win every match you shoot.

You are far better off shooting 1” dots @100yds off a barricade with your centerfire than shooting at 600 trying to “practice“ wind.

Making wind calls and getting first round impacts is what separates the top 1-3% of the top 10%. It’s absolutely not the difference in anyone else at a match.

And you don’t really need to “learn” your drop.

The real benefit of a .22 is focusing on the fundamentals without recoil. And doing it cheaply.

Wind is the absolute last thing most any shooter not in the top 5-10% of national matches should be worried about practicing.

 

[littlepod]

D Thomas is pretty spot on with my experience. I shot 22lr for a year. Tikka T1X in krg bravo and eventually a chassis. Did my time watching training videos and trying to reduce my wobble zone on different barricades. Ran nrl22 every month and practiced every weekend with the 22. About 10,000 rounds through it and it was super cheap compared to centerfire.

I ran a practice PRS match without ever shooting my centerfire off a barricade before and finished in the top of the pack. Skills were pretty transferrable. Bag/barricade work etc.. wobble zone etc. Fundamentals are fundamentals.

Regarding wind. I have no idea how to read it. My range gets zero wind. Always hold center. Maybe edge of plate. Went out to be nrl22 nationals and nrl22x matches shooting the 22 out to 400 yards and finished in the top 30% of the shooters just by watching where they were missing and adjusting after I missed. In terms of top 10 it wasn't due to wind it was due to unknowns like never shooting a mover or a spinner. Those cost me a lot of points.

 

[TheLimey]

Wind is the absolute most over emphasized thing people insist on “practicing.”

Unless it’s a very switchy wind day, once you get the wind call (usually first few shots), your wind “practice” is done for the day. This is the same with a .22 as it is with centerfire. Wind practice should be done with a kestrel when you’re not even at the range. Read wind, take reading, compare and learn.

95% of shooters ain’t missing most of their shots due to bad wind calls. They lose because of either bad fundamentals or bad positions/use of time on the clock.

You can place in the upper pack or even win matches with absolutely zero wind reading. If you can hold on the side into the wind, spot your miss or impact (if not center plate), make the adjustment, and hit the other 7-11 shots (stage dependent), you will place very high or win every match you shoot.

You are far better off shooting 1” dots @100yds off a barricade with your centerfire than shooting at 600 trying to “practice“ wind.

Making wind calls and getting first round impacts is what separates the top 1-3% of the top 10%. It’s absolutely not the difference in anyone else at a match.

And you don’t really need to “learn” your drop.

The real benefit of a .22 is focusing on the fundamentals without recoil. And doing it cheaply.

Wind is the absolute last thing most any shooter not in the top 5-10% of national matches should be worried about practicing.

"The real benefit of a .22 is focusing on the fundamentals without recoil. And doing it cheaply."

I like the sound of that.

 

[TheLimey]

D Thomas is pretty spot on with my experience. I shot 22lr for a year. Tikka T1X in krg bravo and eventually a chassis. Did my time watching training videos and trying to reduce my wobble zone on different barricades. Ran nrl22 every month and practiced every weekend with the 22. About 10,000 rounds through it and it was super cheap compared to centerfire.

I ran a practice PRS match without ever shooting my centerfire off a barricade before and finished in the top of the pack. Skills were pretty transferrable. Bag/barricade work etc.. wobble zone etc. Fundamentals are fundamentals.

Regarding wind. I have no idea how to read it. My range gets zero wind. Always hold center. Maybe edge of plate. Went out to be nrl22 nationals and nrl22x matches shooting the 22 out to 400 yards and finished in the top 30% of the shooters just by watching where they were missing and adjusting after I missed. In terms of top 10 it wasn't due to wind it was due to unknowns like never shooting a mover or a spinner. Those cost me a lot of points.

Not much wind in my neck of the woods either. Can def work on building positions/reducing wobble with my .22. I need to figure out some kind of game to include dialing in fresh elevation for various targets like in a real match. Maybe going from 50 to 100 then back again.

 

[TheLimey]

sounds like you have a good set up, OP. A friend of mine has the RP in 22, loves it.

Yeah I think for what I want to do it will be great. I changed the bold to the 3 inch throw...works nice n smooth. If I can get the perfect cheapish ammo I should be able to rely on it for practice. The criticisms of the stock mechanism are true. A bit flimsy when loosened and adjusting. Seems to be ok when it's locked down though. I took the trigger weight down as far as it would go. One full turn. Seems to be a bit better for me.

 

[308pirate]

I find that you need switchy wind days (for centerfire or .22) to be able to really practice wind. Normal steady wind days, once you get the call, it’s kinda over.

I've been shooting rifles competitively since 2000 (mostly NRA stuff) and I can hardly recall a day with a truly steady wind. Even when the wind isn't switching (which to me means switching directions), it is almost always picking up and letting off. If you care about your score in any NRA discipline, you can almost never disregard those pick ups (speed increases) and let offs (the opposite).

Now, maybe you need to pay less attention to those speed changes when shooting steel plates where a hit scores the same regardless of where it connects and when you only need to fire once or twice at the same target before moving on; but I doubt they can be completely ignored.

Maybe we're splitting hairs. I don't know.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I've been shooting rifles competitively since 2000 (mostly NRA stuff) and I can hardly recall a day with a truly steady wind. Even when the wind isn't switching (which to me means switching directions), it is almost always picking up and letting off. If you care about your score in any NRA discipline, you can almost never disregard those pick ups (speed increases) and let offs (the opposite).

Now, maybe you need to pay less attention to those speed changes when shooting steel plates where a hit scores the same regardless of where it connects and when you only need to fire once or twice at the same target before moving on; but I doubt they can be completely ignored.

Maybe we're splitting hairs. I don't know.

Other disciplines definitely don’t apply to my opinion on wind and such. Things like F class and NRA are a different animal and wind reading is far more important.

I’m more speaking about large amount of shooters in prs style matches who seem to think guys are on 90s stages and reading the wind change 2mph or something like that.

 

[littlepod]

Other disciplines definitely don’t apply to my opinion on wind and such. Things like F class and NRA are a different animal and wind reading is far more important.

I’m more speaking about large amount of shooters in prs style matches who seem to think guys are on 90s stages and reading the wind change 2mph or something like that.

12 shots, 90s, multiple targets and positions, there isn't time to be reading wind. I barely get off my 12 shots before the timer runs out.

 

[308pirate]

12 shots, 90s, multiple targets and positions, there isn't time to be reading wind. I barely get off my 12 shots before the timer runs out.

I think there is time to read the wind, but after reading @Dthomas3523 excellent post on another thread I understand that many may be over-reading the wind and then run into time troubles.

How one reads the wind and what one does with that information is significantly different when you have 90 - 100 seconds to hit a number of plates that all score the same wherever you hit them compared to shooting the same target over and over for 20 shots in 20 minutes (or less) but you bleed points if you stray from the center at all.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think there is time to read the wind, but after reading @Dthomas3523 excellent post on another thread I understand that many may be over-reading the wind and then run into time troubles.

How one reads the wind and what one does with that information is significantly different when you have 90 - 100 seconds to hit a number of plates that all score the same wherever you hit them compared to shooting the same target over and over for 20 shots in 20 minutes (or less) but you bleed points if you stray from the center at all.

Ya, completely different. If this was more of an F class site, I’d be singing a totally different tune.

“Wind is the great equalizer” is only true in *prs matches* for the very top pack shooters. The rest of the field could completely forget wind if they work on the correct things for now.

 

[MakeSawdust]

At a match a beginning shooter at a club match asked me how I was so good at picking a wind call without an anemometer. I told them it is easy. If you can send one shot and see where it goes you should be able to hit every other shot in the stage. Sometimes you get lucky and are right for the initial call. You clean the stage, or drop one point. If you are doing that you are almost guaranteed a good finish in the match.

That was a year or two ago. It is less true today, but still sound advice. The top shooters are getting incredibly good. With modest wind for the day and generous target sizes, the guys at the top can damn near clean the whole course of fire.

The posts you have been making about finishing high in prs are golden. Shoot an accurate, reliable rifle. Learn the fundamentals of marksmanship. Have solid DOPE. Dryfire to learn to reinforce the FOM and reduce wobble. Learn to spot where every shot you send downrange goes, and correct it to the dead nuts center on the next shot. Learn to build positions and move efficiently. You have the game. You should finish in the top 10 if you can do all of those things nearly mistake free for an entire match. After that it is the mental game that will put you on the podium or knock you aff of it.

Guys that consistently finish top 3 are "machines." They have a process that works, and they don't let anything get in their head and fuck it up. Most of us, me included, aren't that focused and mentally disciplined. There are a lot of guys out there that can shoot really well in practice, but the wheels fall off as soon as their minds tell them something is at stake.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yep. Most guys are focused on the wrong things at the wrong time in their skill progression. I harp on wind because it’s the most common. Guys shooting 50% or so coming off stages talking about wind. Some are trying to save face, but most of them genuinely believe it wind is what got them or separates them from the top pack guys.

I also constantly hear people who take a class at some of the best schools say “it was an ok class, but mainly fundamentals. I expected something more.”

Many shooters believe there are some tricks or secrets when it’s almost all fundamentals (I’m speaking for practical/prs style shooting).

 

[beetroot]

No, it would not be the same as “claiming dry fire doesnt help”.

If you dry fire your comp rifle / hunting rifle, then you are utilizing the same trigger, cheek weld, scope, fitment etc. Most people do not clone their 6.5 creedmoors , 308s, 300s etc to equivalent 22 rifles. AR shooters are the one exception.

Also, I don’t agree with you at all. “if you take two people of equal skill, let one shoot 10-20k rnds of .22 and the other 3,000 rounds of centerfire, the one with the .22 will be a noticeably better marksmen.”

There is no way to prove your claim, you are just making assertions. Recoil and recoil anticipation have massive effects that I think you are severely down playing. I think that claim is absurd. The guy or girl who shoots 10k rounds on his 22lr might be better at shooting 22lr and 22lr only. I’ve never shot even close to 2k rounds out of my 6.5 cm but I gaurentee you I will shoot that rifle better than you will. That’s because I know that rifle, it’s set for me I practice with it and am used to it. I am sure you can say the same thing about your rifles in relation to me and not just because you shoot 22lr. We all shoot 22lr. We all like 22lr. We have all shot thousands and thousands of rounds of 22lr. If I was not clear in my first post, I meant to say that I feel that 22lr is not a meaningful surrogate for shooting precision centerfire rifles or long range shooting. It’s just my opinion. I remain unconvinced of your proposition. I am sure you are right and I am just “doing it wrong”. If I get it right you will the first to know. But I think we will just have to respectfully disagree.

Last year I shot only around 200 rounds from my 260 with 80% of that being at the two matches I shot at, which I scored top 3 for both.
22lr on the other hand was 3000+ rounds fired for the year, which absolutely attributed to how well I shot at the centrefire matches.

Other that a 5 minute refresher on what recoil was and how to manage it, the 22 "training" allowed me to practice everything I needed.

Dry fire practice is great and can help a lot with building a position and general rifle handling but it cannot fully replace actually shooting.
22lr is fantastic for getting you used to twisting turrets, using holdovers and making wind holds at far more accessible ranges than that required for centrefire.
When it came to shooting centrefire matches after having shot 99% 22 I was amazed at how little dialing/holding for elevation was required and wind holds were almost non existent.

 

[beetroot]

Ya, completely different. If this was more of an F class site, I’d be singing a totally different tune.

“Wind is the great equalizer” is only true in *prs matches* for the very top pack shooters. The rest of the field could completely forget wind if they work on the correct things for now.

Perfect wind reading isn't worth a damn if you time out on every stage due to not knowing how to build a good position quickly, and move efficiently.
In fact most guys I see at matches could greatly improve their results if they just knew how to handle/manipulate their rifle properly, and actually knew how to use their equipment properly.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Perfect wind reading isn't worth a damn if you time out on every stage due to not knowing how to build a good position quickly, and move efficiently.
In fact most guys I see at matches could greatly improve their results if they just knew how to handle/manipulate their rifle properly, and actually knew how to use their equipment properly.

This is part of my point. People worried with the wrong shit at the wrong time in their progression.

Learn how to shoot really well prone.
Learn how to build stable position
Learn how to build multiple positions under time
Learn basic strategy for wind (I made a whole thread on this).

Perfect all these skills above, start placing or winning single day matches. Then start the cycle over again with two day matches.

Once you’re top 20’ing or close in 2 day matches.......then you can really start focusing on making perfect wind calls.

Otherwise, you’re just spinning your wheels on shit that you don’t shoot well enough to benefit from.

 

[308pirate]

This is part of my point. People worried with the wrong shit at the wrong time in their progression.

Learn how to shoot really well prone.
Learn how to build stable position
Learn how to build multiple positions under time
Learn basic strategy for wind (I made a whole thread on this).

Perfect all these skills above, start placing or winning single day matches. Then start the cycle over again with two day matches.

Once you’re top 20’ing or close in 2 day matches.......then you can really start focusing on making perfect wind calls.

Otherwise, you’re just spinning your wheels on shit that you don’t shoot well enough to benefit from.

You got a similar how-to for USPSA?

 

[Dthomas3523]

You got a similar how-to for USPSA?

Lol. I’m combat effective with a pistol. That’s it.

 

[beetroot]

Learn how to shoot really well prone.
Learn how to build stable position
Learn how to build multiple positions under time
Learn basic strategy for wind (I made a whole thread on this).

This is perfect summary of the path to becoming a good (or great) practical shooter!
It also is a good way to show how a 22 Trainer can be used to cheaply improve your shooting.

The way I do it (which I alluded too in post #43) is too use my 22lr to practice all the above steps and so long as I can do step 1 with my centrefires then I'm more or less good.
Provided I can control recoil, trust my rifle and load data, and am comfortable handling/manipulating the rifle then there is little reason for me to spend hours and dollars reloading for my 260 when I can do the bulk of my practice with 22lr.

Simply put;
I'd much rather put CCI standard velocity into the dirt when trying to shoot off hand/off barricades/weird shooting positions vs my reloads that cost 12x as much and take hours to make.

PS, your wind strategy is fanstastic!

 

[308pirate]

This is perfect summary of the path to becoming a good (or great) practical shooter!
It also is a good way to show how a 22 Trainer can be used to cheaply improve your shooting.

The way I do it (which I alluded too in post #43) is too use my 22lr to practice all the above steps and so long as I can do step 1 with my centrefires then I'm more or less good.
Provided I can control recoil, trust my rifle and load data, and am comfortable handling/manipulating the rifle then there is little reason for me to spend hours and dollars reloading for my 260 when I can do the bulk of my practice with 22lr.

Simply put;
I'd much rather put CCI standard velocity into the dirt when trying to shoot off hand/off barricades/weird shooting positions vs my reloads that cost 12x as much and take hours to make.

PS, your wind strategy is fanstastic!

You're going to cost me money

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just make sure you don’t fall into the free recoil pitfall of .22

You can totally free recoil a .22 and be fine. This is why you see a lot of mid-lower pack centerfire shooters move into mid-upper pack at Rimfire matches.

As long as you’re conscious about your position building you’ll be fine. But there is a big difference in building a position and building a position that manages recoil.

 

[High H2o]

I am in the camp that 22 and dry fire will only get you so far. You have to mix in dummy rounds with your live center fire rounds in the magazine. Put the rounds in randomly of course so that you don't know which trigger press could be live or show your flinch when the firing pin hits an empty case.

Brilliant!