In my humble opinion Vudoo is the superior rifle. Both the action and the barrel are on another league. There’s no comparison. So Bergara will not steal Vudoo’s clientele but CZ’s... If I have $2k+ I will go for a Vudoo. If I have $1k I will go for a CZ. Now in that $1k bracket I have a new option... It’s really simple...
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Bergara has a new rimfire.
- Thread starter gunjunkie45
- Start date
I am not taking no company’s side as I have no financial interests in any of them. I am on my side and I believe the majority of shooters... When the companies will start paying my bills then hell yeah I will jump on their train...
I am not a patent attorney so I have no clue what’s involved in a yet inactive patent about the shape of a product that was originally designed by a third company...
I'll contribute to this thread only as it pertains to keeping information relevant where Vudoo is mentioned. I'll not make any comments as they may pertain to Bergara or any dialogue that may or may not be going on between the two companies. I know the CEO there and have communicated with him numerous times in the past prior to their rimfire endeavors and fully intend to do everything possible to make this more about this shooting community than what is typical in situations like this.
The questions above are the right questions. As fas as me/Vudoo using any Remington "IP" in the development of our shooting system, the answer is, absolutely not. I could go into the true definition of IP, but I'll not do that here. What I will say is, Vudoo, like many companies, use a common footprint for the sake of the end user. That common footprint (which includes the trigger interface) is regarded as open architecture given it's time in market (no different than the 1911, Glock, 10/22, etc).
All other features in the V-22 action and any future actions I may be working on are divergent to anything else featured in the Remington. Vudoo IP as it pertains to the V-22 surrounds the technology involved in it's production and the approach to creating a system that provides an unprecedented level of accuracy from a mid-lock rimfire repeater. We guard this very closely which is what led to the DEFTI description of the entire approach. We do not advertise what DEFTI is or what it means....that's just for us and is the nucleus to everything we do. Please don't ask what it means....
The magazine is highly unique to Vudoo and didn't exist before I did it. Again, the design is based on a common footprint, but the divergent features are what separates it from other magazines. No different than the action, the magazine design is all about the end user and to solve the right problems as I viewed them amongst the shooting community. This community was working hard to deal with areas of difficulty as it pertained to the direction I saw this discipline going (I've given credit to Hoser and the 40X mafia for getting me to thinking down this path). As I stated above, the IP is the outer form of the AICS as it relates to rimfire use....there's no simpler way to describe the approach and the IP is the property of Vudoo Gun Works. The reason I developed the 40X repeater conversion was to test the magazine, not to actually perform as many conversions as I did, followed by the multitude of conversions by Jelrod1.
I have been very open about competition in the community. I've promoted it. I/we came out of the gate at Vudoo stating we're not for everyone and we understand why. The design is very specific to our mission of providing a true-to-scale platform that removes any questions about gear and puts the onus of improvement on the shooter. It was not to create the most economical platform, so I will not take measures (castings, MIM, cheaply made barrels, cheap materials, etc.) I consider to be short cuts to serve my own agenda or that of my company. A properly executed design was placed well before what is the typical approach in this industry to introducing product. Simply put, my agenda and that of my company is to offer the very best, no compromises, in everything we do, and it has re-shaped the use of rimfire. This is the path we'll continue down. For those that can't quite get there with the Vudoo, I've helped them with their CZ's, Savages and other brands to drain the most out of what they have, again, because it's really about the shooters.
Going forward, this will unfold the way it unfolds. If you have questions of me/Vudoo, please ask them, but understand there will be things I won't/can't answer. That's where patience and trust comes into the mix, not division. I/we, don't take this community for granted, as it's what we've chosen to do for quite a long time to come.
Thanks,
MB
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Feeling secondhand cringe at people's attitude here towards a larger company infringing on the patent of a smaller company that has seemingly done everything right as a business for their customers and the shooting world. The "Hey who cares as long as it drives down costs for me?" attitude is just slimy and disappointing.
What? Bergara is one of the best values out there. Theyre not claiming to be a substitue to Vudoo, they are offering a value based option for 1/2-1/3 of the price.
Infringe all they want. I suspect Vudoo's will still be 10 deep on the top of the leaderboards.
If you are ok with a company "driving down" prices and increasing "competition", just remember, ripping off someone else's work speaks of your character.
Now, there are a lot of assumptions in the above posts. Can anybody publicly say if there is an infringement or not? I'm very curious to hear more details, but in the meantime, I will continue saving my pennies for another Vudoo.
If you are ok with a company "driving down" prices and increasing "competition", just remember, ripping off someone else's work speaks of your character.
Now, there are a lot of assumptions in the above posts. Can anybody publicly say if there is an infringement or not? I'm very curious to hear more details, but in the meantime, I will continue saving my pennies for another Vudoo.
The irony is strong in the quoted post.
If you are going to insult others' intelligence, name call and be just be unnecessarily hostile, at least make sure you have a basic comprehension of the English language.
I dont think anyone here is claiming to be in favor of patent infringment, and if that is what happened, im sure everyone would be in favor of a fair outcome. Im betting no one here (at least not many) is a patent lawyer, so all of this speculation is for naught.
The belittling, insinuations of poverty, etc are not needed. It doesnt read like anyone is saying the Bergara is a direct competitor and in anyway equal or superior to the Vudoo. It's conceded Vudoo is top of the class. Some are simply saying this is a great, on paper, option that is in the same vein as the vudoo (in regards to 700 footprint compatibility), but no more a Vudoo than an HMR is a [insert whatever custom action built by whatever smith you prefer here]. Again, the real potential "loser" here is not Vudoo, but CZ.
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I think there must be a big misunderstanding...
Nobody in their right minds can deny that Vudoo is the better rifle. It’s the best option you have, period. As Ravage said it’s not for everyone cost wise. I would never be in a situation of purchasing such a fine rifle and call me cheap or poor all day long... Two days ago I was ready to place an order for a CZ 457 MTR. Not a Vudoo. And then Bergara came out. So I do understand what is going on as far as patents are concerned but market wise I was not a Vudoo customer lost to Bergara. And my opinion which might be different than yours is that Vudoo will not loose customers; CZ will.
I understand Ravage’s position and I really want to know the details but I guess time will reveal to us what is really going on.
Now from this going to the other extreme and calling me or any other person as cheap bastard, idiot or not knowing right from wrong is quite another thing, especially when you are a moderator and personally attack another member (that’s you Rob)... And all that just because I do not agree with your opinion and I might hurt your feelings... that was not my intention...
Vudoo will still be on the top at matches, all others will follow behind and we should be extremely happy that we have all these options...
Now you can start once again calling me whatever names you want...
Nobody in their right minds can deny that Vudoo is the better rifle. It’s the best option you have, period. As Ravage said it’s not for everyone cost wise. I would never be in a situation of purchasing such a fine rifle and call me cheap or poor all day long... Two days ago I was ready to place an order for a CZ 457 MTR. Not a Vudoo. And then Bergara came out. So I do understand what is going on as far as patents are concerned but market wise I was not a Vudoo customer lost to Bergara. And my opinion which might be different than yours is that Vudoo will not loose customers; CZ will.
I understand Ravage’s position and I really want to know the details but I guess time will reveal to us what is really going on.
Now from this going to the other extreme and calling me or any other person as cheap bastard, idiot or not knowing right from wrong is quite another thing, especially when you are a moderator and personally attack another member (that’s you Rob)... And all that just because I do not agree with your opinion and I might hurt your feelings... that was not my intention...
Vudoo will still be on the top at matches, all others will follow behind and we should be extremely happy that we have all these options...
Now you can start once again calling me whatever names you want...
OneBill it was a general statement and not an attack or name calling. Lighten up Francis. Would take a lot more than that for anyone here to hurt my feeling and especially someone I don't know. If you feel it described you then that is on you. It is about right and wrong. Possible patent infringement. Period. So don't think calling me out will make any points.
This statement says a lot about your character, and in a VERY positive way.
Until the patent question is answered, I'll assume there's not a problem. Until then, I think this rifle will give my Anschutz 1416 HB a real run for the money. Am very curious how this rifle handles and shoots. Definitely a different animal than the Voodoo as they are in two different price ranges. Curiosity peaked...
So.....um.....what’s DEFTI stand for? ???
I figured for sure bergara licensed the magazine.
If they didn't... and it infringes... then that's pretty shitty. As a fellow patent holder and innovator, I'm not OK with any company blatantly copying other peoples IP. There are a lot of ways this could work to the advantage of all companies involved.
If they didn't... and it infringes... then that's pretty shitty. As a fellow patent holder and innovator, I'm not OK with any company blatantly copying other peoples IP. There are a lot of ways this could work to the advantage of all companies involved.
I agree...but judging from the looks of bergara mags..looks bit short (5 rounder maybe) vudoo still didnt release 5 rounder?
No thumb buttons to compress springs?
Its safer to say AICS clone mags instead of vudoo22 mags clone.byt again bergara photos just prototype so who knows.just .02
If I read @RAVAGE88 post correctly, using an AICS clone magazine for rimfire ammunition falls under the Vudoo magazine patent. So that would directly conflict with that patent.
Hmmm i dunno about that..if vudoo licensed to clone aics..im sure bergara too..they been cloning aics with their own version polymers for 308?
From my comments above: "The magazine is highly unique to Vudoo and didn't exist before I did it. Again, the design is based on a common footprint, but the divergent features are what separates it from other magazines."
MB
If Bergara is smart, they will either pay vudoo some royalties for magazine use or get mags from them and just increase the price 40-50 bucks.
They seem to have a decent reputation with their other guns. Not worth it to ruin it on something like this.
They seem to have a decent reputation with their other guns. Not worth it to ruin it on something like this.
How did Bergara and Savage copy the 10/22 rotary mags? Is the gun so old that patent expired?
Patents do not last that long. 20 years. After that its a free for all.
Sorry, that’s outside the envelope of what I’m willing to share here at the moment.
MB
Sucky.
I tried patent searches with key works such as “rimfire”, “.22LR”, “.22”, “Mike Bush”, “Michael Bush”, but absolutely nothing relevant came up.
I don't speak for MB in any way, shape or form; but I wouldn't give out ANY info like that in an open forum (or even by PM, where it might get out).
Why would you potentially help your competition in ANY way, esp. with discovery? Let them pay their own damn lawyers to find stuff.
Why would you potentially help your competition in ANY way, esp. with discovery? Let them pay their own damn lawyers to find stuff.
That's where this becomes convoluted. ... and no one here will ever know the truth of it. Both parties will see to that. Only active patents are searchable. So that means until a patent is actually completely granted, and the process complete... no one can see it. It will be about who knew what and when. What was filed and when. Who wants what and how.
Personally, I'll not jump to fault either entity... because there simply is not enough actual fact present about the true intent and circumstances surrounding this.
I maintain however... if it is indeed true that bergara did know of the magazine design, and knew what they were doing and did so intentionally, that is scummy. If they did not know, did not have ill intention... well then there's a lot of room for cooperation which will benefit all.
Im serious, patent number never crossed my mind until i read this.
Why are you interested in patent numbers or how many times i post?
A lot of truth to these comments and certainly based on relevance. However, where I/Vudoo is concerned, the truth will be available when it's conducive to the circumstances. Certainly sucks, and I know there are a lot of questions right now, but they'll be answered when the time is appropriate. This community has that promise from me....
MB
Lets not act as though patents are hard to find. Existing patents are extremely easy to find. Patents under consideration... not so much. The process takes a year to 3 years, with most being completed inside of 2.
Tokay444
I didnt know anything about the bergara mags-patent thing, i just now scrolled up and saw a little bit of it. I apologize for trying to be smart and ugly about it. I thought you were just being nosey about Vudoos patent.
Inline with what Orkan is saying, the action patent will be visible to the public in a matter of days; anyone doing a search on the USPTO website will be able to see it using various keywords. Unfortunately, I can't/won't comment on the status of the magazine other than to say, the filing date is the magic part as it pertains to prior art. And, if a product is on the market and in pending status, another entity, etc., isn't eligible to file based on prior art, nor, are they allowed to infringe.
I hope this eases tensions here a bit....
MB
I hope this eases tensions here a bit....
MB
LOL what?
Some of you fanboys seem to think no one has ever done an accurate rimfire repeating bolt action rifle before
Whatever
Gonna buy a Bergara just to piss you off
Let me ask you something. Do you have access to a Bergara magazine and know enough about Voodu's patent to actually determine and support your infringement claim? Are you a patent lawyer?
99% of the people who scream patent infringement don't know shit from shinola about the subject
Change my mind
Are you a patent lawyer? Don't answer I already know.
Do you have access to Voodu's patents?
Do you have access to a Bergara B-22 magazine and on its engineering drawings?
Do you have the professional knowledge to be able to examine both and back up your claim of patent infringement?
I'm gonna bet the answers are no, no, and no.
Bottom line is I'll buy a Bergara if I like a Bergara and will let the lawyers (the real lawyers, not the shithouse lawyers) sort it out.
Well I certainly hope that there’s a big enough market for both of these products to exist. I wonder if the vudoo mags are compatible with these Bergara rifles, and if Vudoo could see an increase of mag sales because of it.
You're dead right about that one. Those that have patents, tend to not know anything either. Patent lawyers don't know much more... but they get paid to argue regardless. That is why - In truth, a patent is only worth what you're willing to spend to defend it. You can have an air tight patent, but if you aren't prepared to spend a large sum of money ($50,000+) then your patent isn't worth the paper cert they send you.
The people immediately slandering bergara without knowing the facts, are opening themselves to possible litigation. No one here knows all the facts... so it would do all of you well to speak only of your feelings in hypothetical sense, and remove the certainty from your postings. There's no point for anyone to get worked up.
All I see is a new rifle with desirable features. My feelings are such, that we'll see plenty of feeding problems with them. Regardless... its only $1000, and the street price is liable to be a lot less. So it isn't like anyone is at risk when buying one. The legal crap is for other people to decide. It's wrong to fault either party until there is reason to do so... and if you have some critical thinking capability, there is not reason presently. If someone is at fault, it's not known if it was intentional... and it damn sure is OK to make a mistake if you are simply accidentally ignorant. Time will take care of the rest.
