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Bergara has a new rimfire.
- Thread starter gunjunkie45
- Start date
Nate he has better things to spend his time on than this internet lawyer stuff. It is funny though.
Isn't it interesting, Rob, how much incredibly useful information is available from true experts here on SH... which is occasionally balanced by comparing... o never mind, I have something much more valuable to do... Funny Home Videos is on the DVR ?. Say hey to Mike for me if you talk to him.
@NateVA , I won't say more in this thread than I already have in post #58. If some are without the ability to properly comprehend what I said or have been ordained to represent and carry out the typical corporate posture on the internet for the sake of the SHOT Show story, so be it. But like Rob said, the alcohol induced law degrees are pretty funny.
MB
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Jd Jones invented the 300 whisper, did quite a bit with the military demonstrating it, along came someone that made very minute changes to a couple angles and called it the Blackout. SSK Whisper dies will size and reload both. His Whisper was stolen but wasn't worth pursuing legal action. How deep are your pockets and how far do you want to pay the bottom feeders to argue legalities costing far more than will be recovered?
Each will have its customer base and niche to fill.
Hope both perform well, I'll still stick to old school cool with my rimfires.
Topstrap
Each will have its customer base and niche to fill.
Hope both perform well, I'll still stick to old school cool with my rimfires.
Topstrap
No, JD Jones 300 Whisper was not stolen. He is the one who decided to trademark the name so no one could use it unless they paid him royalties. Also getting it trademarked prohibited SAAMI acceptance. The 300 Whisper was based on the .221 Fireball case and the 300 Blackout is based on the .223 Remington case. AAC submitted the 300 Blackout to SAAMI and it was approved and standardized. THIS is why the 300 Whisper never gained popularity and the 300 Blackout took off. It was never a stolen idea. His own greed and Trademark killed is cartridge. I'm only pointing this out so the readers here will know the facts. Of course I am more than happy to eat crow if you can show proof the idea was "stolen".
An Official Journal Of The NRA | Shades of Gray: .300 Whisper & .300 AAC Blackout
There is a great deal of confusion regarding these two similar cartridges with different names. But how did they develop, and how similar are they?
Not worth going over for the 897th time.
Just using as an example showing no matter what you come up with you need deep pockets to defend it.
Topstrap
Thanks for the link, very informative. Didn't see any evidence of theft but a good read non-the-less.
I think one could still make the case that his intellectual property was stolen. It was his idea, he came up with it. Somebody changed a few minor details got it standardized and he was left holding the bag.
I have a close friend who is a gunsmith that designed his own muzzle brakes and they are superior to anything I've ever used. I suggested he should patent them. He told me it wasn't worth the trouble just to have somebody copy it changing some minor detail and thus rendering his patent irrelevant.
Haven't checked on the hide in a couple weeks, figured I'd pop in and see what was up with this new rifle. Didn't expect to find all this going on. Guess I'll check back in a couple more weeks and see if there's any relevant information. Oh, and I almost forgot, I own two vudoos in case anyone is wondering. They're both fine rifles.
Peace out.
Been following the development of this thread for a while and the magazine patent discussion is interesting. Coming from the view of being new to Sniper'sHide Forum and just getting into .22lr precision stuff, I was excited to see that Bergara was coming out with a .22lr precision trainer. I own an HMR in 6.5 and just bought a Tikka T1X about a month before the B-14 R was announced (dangit, should've waited). Looks like this isn't really going after the ultra-high end Vudoo crowd, and that it does just what they describe, being a precision rimfire trainer that matches their HMR platform. As an entry level consumer wanting to get into the NRL22 and PRS games, this would seem like two good starting points.
I know I don't have the clout of some who have posted in this thread being the FNG, but here's my take on the whole magazine patent thing (again, knowing my opinion isn't worth crap). I'm not sure if there's a patent issue, but to me, it would seem the best for Bergara and Vudoo to come to some sort of reasonable licensing agreement or something to allow both platforms to flourish. Kind of like the 10/22 (I'm aware any patent on that long since expired), but that magazine pattern popularity has driven it to be developed on other platforms. Bergara also "copied" this with their BXR, but it's like THE most popular .22lr platform ever, so it make sense. My take as a new guy coming to market that is looking at the B-14R, but not looking at the vudoo due to cost, is that the magazine pattern isn't really going to affect my decision. I wouldn't go get a Vudoo if Bergara had developed their own proprietary mag. I think the only people that would have an issue is the people that are specifically looking for a PRS trainer. While it would be nice to have the same mag size as my HMR, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. It seems like Bergara went with what was already out and available in the R700 platform so that mags would already be available (I'm not sure on the actual mechanics of this). I'm curious if the mags between vudoo and bergara will be interchangeable? Tikka developed the T1X on their T3 line of action size, but didn't develop a "full-size" magazine, they went proprietary. Ruger with the RPRR, went with what was already standardized, but didn't go full size mag. Seems like Bergara is just going with what was already out there in terms of what was out for the R700 platform.
Hopefully they can come to an agreement and everyone is happy. There is a slight concern as a new guy that if I were to get the B-14R and the magazine patent thing becomes a huge issue that I'd have issues getting additional/replacement magazines. If the vudoo mags would be fully interchangeable then that would be fine. If they're not interchangeable, then I'm less sure why there'd be a patent issue. Either way, I look forward to reports on the B-14R
I know I don't have the clout of some who have posted in this thread being the FNG, but here's my take on the whole magazine patent thing (again, knowing my opinion isn't worth crap). I'm not sure if there's a patent issue, but to me, it would seem the best for Bergara and Vudoo to come to some sort of reasonable licensing agreement or something to allow both platforms to flourish. Kind of like the 10/22 (I'm aware any patent on that long since expired), but that magazine pattern popularity has driven it to be developed on other platforms. Bergara also "copied" this with their BXR, but it's like THE most popular .22lr platform ever, so it make sense. My take as a new guy coming to market that is looking at the B-14R, but not looking at the vudoo due to cost, is that the magazine pattern isn't really going to affect my decision. I wouldn't go get a Vudoo if Bergara had developed their own proprietary mag. I think the only people that would have an issue is the people that are specifically looking for a PRS trainer. While it would be nice to have the same mag size as my HMR, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. It seems like Bergara went with what was already out and available in the R700 platform so that mags would already be available (I'm not sure on the actual mechanics of this). I'm curious if the mags between vudoo and bergara will be interchangeable? Tikka developed the T1X on their T3 line of action size, but didn't develop a "full-size" magazine, they went proprietary. Ruger with the RPRR, went with what was already standardized, but didn't go full size mag. Seems like Bergara is just going with what was already out there in terms of what was out for the R700 platform.
Hopefully they can come to an agreement and everyone is happy. There is a slight concern as a new guy that if I were to get the B-14R and the magazine patent thing becomes a huge issue that I'd have issues getting additional/replacement magazines. If the vudoo mags would be fully interchangeable then that would be fine. If they're not interchangeable, then I'm less sure why there'd be a patent issue. Either way, I look forward to reports on the B-14R
Someone please send me 30 minutes of my life as a refund.....
I thought I was reading a thread about a new 22 bolt repeater......
I thought I was reading a thread about a new 22 bolt repeater......
The
The folks at Vudoo would never do such a thing. They are some of the nicest people I have ever dealt with!!
I haven't seen or heard of anyone getting one yet. I've got a couple feelers out trying to lay my hands on one as soon as I can, tho.
Distributors have had part numbers, upc's, and pricing for weeks and weeks now... I was just now able to get our first BXR002 today finally. Hopefully the B14R will come quicker.
Nothing is readily available to order, no. But they have had all the particulars for a couple weeks as far as pricing, part numbers and UPC numbers.
They'll be like any better production .22 rifle, ie, CZ's, Tikka's, Sako's, etc....out of 5 guns, 2 will shoot very good, 2 OK... but not great, and one that sucks.
That's why you always get conflicting accuracy reports on all the reviews.
Here are his groups, five shots, Eley Tenex at 50 yards. His video is under 22LRMarksman on IG.
MB
MB
Here are his groups, five shots, Eley Tenex at 50 yards. His video is under 22LRMarksman on IG.
MB
If that doesn't tighten up a whole bunch it will be very disappointingHere are his groups, five shots, Eley Tenex at 50 yards. His video is under 22LRMarksman on IG.
MB
Yeh... that looks worse than a V22 Center-X 100 yard group.
Looks way worse than a tikka or rurger americian for that matter, Maybe shooter or ammo but somthing better tighten up
One rifle with one type of ammo a conclusion it does not make. Still trying to get one from Bergara for review.
That was my thought, as well. I've still got a couple feelers out through a dealer and a connection with Bergara, so I am hoping to have my hands on one pretty soon.
Here are his groups, five shots, Eley Tenex at 50 yards. His video is under 22LRMarksman on IG.
MB
I know the guy that posted these results and talked with him regarding them.
The first thing that I would let any potential Bergara buyers and curiosity seekers know is this...
- the shooter only had 1 lot of Tenex and a half hour at the range before it got dark. Therefore, no ammo or lot testing yet. Also, he didn't have time to tune action screw torque.
- Not knowing what headspace is set at in these rifles, but assuming that it's within either SAAMI or CIP spec in order to cover their rearends for saftey sake, the tightest that it could possibly be is .043", but more likely .044" to .045". With that said, Eley is probably the wrong ammo for that rifle. Lapua/Sk will likely shoot better as the rim thickness will better fill the headspace.
To sum up, between tuning action screw torque, increasing rim thickness through a different ammo choice, and lot testing that ammo, I would guess that those groups will shrink significantly.
What I'd really like to see are pictures of these mythical $2000.00 Vudoo rifles that have been mentioned over and over in this thread. Oh, and a link to where one can be purchased would be helpful as well.. ?
One rifle with arguably the best ammo you can buy, doesn't bode well for future testings.
Barrels are rules unto themselves, I've seen rifles shoot like shit with some of the best ammo that you can buy but eat up cheaper stuff. Statistically, his results are insignificant and using them to form a bias prior to any other testing with other types of ammunition is irrational.
Whoa, settle down there Betty. Not sure why you'd be offended by these targets; if you look at the posts just prior to the targets being posted, you'll see there were guys interested in knowing what the accuracy was and couldn't find the links. Forums like this are here to post information, so the info on where to find the video on IG and pictures of what's representative of the accuracy as it relates to the conditions, etc., was provided. There was no mud slinging or anything else involved that justifies anyone's ire. Trigger Monkey and others are absolutely correct about lots, etc., so take it for what it's worth.
MB
This gun is not in the same league as a Vudoo. I don't think anyone is saying that it is. A Vudoo is a custom 700, chambered in 22lr. The price is consistent with all the other custom 700 footprint guns in my safe. Aside from a freakishly small group I shot yesterday with a 260Rem, the Vudoo consistently outperforms all the others, including my 54:18MSR.
Part of the beauty of the Vudoo, is you can drop it into your current center-fire rig, trigger and all, and go. So in that case, it really is a $2000 gun ($1800 to be exact).
If you don't mind accepting certain concessions, the Begara will be a very competitive rifle and will surely serve the CZ's, and all the other push feed guns a hot supper.
In the IG video , first few rounds so probably needs more through it , slight breeze , cold , bipod was not as stable as it could be , and no lot testing , I see a lot of room for improvement , and he was in a hurry , waiting to see how others review
Betty?! My name ain't Betty, and I fail to see where any of what I posted could be construed as me being offended. I merely stated that there is hope for better groups than what was pictured, and the reasoning behind that hope.
We'll have to agree to disagree I guess.
I see it differently. The "barreled action" is just that. No trigger group or stock/chassis. In order to shoot the barreled action a trigger group also needs to be installed as well as a stock or chassis. Whether you already own one or not, the stock or chassis cost something. The same can be said for the trigger group. Even if we stick to your pricing logic, not everyone has spare Remington 700 stocks and triggers collecting dust.
Every Vudoo that I have had the pleasure of shooting was more in the $2700.00 to $3000.00 price range.
The joy of it is, you don't need a spare. You can use the one your centre fire is in, by undoing and redoing two screws.
Swapping around like that gets old very quickly.
You're absolutely right about that. Although, I personally wouldn't call it a joy swapping parts around every time I want to shoot a different caliber. We're all unique, as human beings, and therefore find delight in varying things. For instance, I thoroughly enjoy cleaning my 22lr's, while a good many find it a drudgery and,or, unnecessary.
