Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

[Boxerglocker]

Anyone have any luck with 75g HPBT's with a 1-9 twist Remington SPS Tactical in .223?

I attempted some load development testing today using Berger Match 75 VLDs and Varget. Loaded 3 rounds each, 23.0 to 25.5g in 0.5 increments, LC once fired brass, FL sized, trimmed to 1.750, OAL 2.260

23.0 and 23.5 stunk wildly on target. 24.0 about 2.5 MOA, 24.5, 2 shots a one inch, the 3rd 4-5 inches, 25.0 2 shots at half an inch, 3rd 3 inches. The 25.5 one made the targeted group box the other 2 low on the paper.

OK, before anyone questions my ability to shoot groups. I shot several 5 shot strings with my proven 69 SMK / Varget load (0.7 MOA) and 55g Nosler / H335 load (0.3 MOA) before and after. All were MOA or better. I confirmed my zero with the 55g Nosler load and shot a half MOA group right at the start.

So my question is, should I just give up on the 75g loads? Assume that my barrel cannot stabilize them consistently?

Any ideas, for proven loads with a similar barreled rifle and 75 grain HPBTs? I'm thinking on trying to refine some in the 24.0 to 25.5 range but hesitant as I'm not sure that it's even worth it.

I'm also tempted to shell out for a box of factory Blackhills and/or Hornady 75s just to use as a controlled reference. What do you guys think? Waste of time and money?

Appreciate the insights and advice.

 

[jtv3062]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

Tagging in, I've got some Berger and need a load.

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

I too have given them a try but not enough to say anything.Work just got in the way but hope to try them again soon.From what I can remember I was getting 2 inch groups at 300 yards.Not bad but looking for better.MY rifel is a 5R with a 1:9 like yours but I think I have 4 more inches of barrel not sure.

I think that when I shoot the rest of my 75gn BTHP bullets and they don't work out I am going to try the 70gn Berger VLD.I can get a 75gn Berger VLD to shoot but only good enough to take deer with out to 200 yards.Like you for now my got to bullet is a 69gn NCC with 8208 pushing it.My best so fare with my rifel at 300 is just over 1 inch with 10 shot group.( 69gn NCC )

hope it works out for ya for I feel your pain.

 

[ggmanning]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

You didn't mention seating depth. VLD's are very particular with seating depth and you need to find out what depth they prefer in your gun and then figure out powder load. This helped me tune them better:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/03/berger-tips-for-loading-vld-bullets/

If it is erratic using the method in that article it may be stabilization......they shoot for me in a 1:8 at 2800+fps so I can't give any 1:9 first hand knowledge.

 

[Bibs]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

its not gonna work

buy a .308

 

[FCS]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

What is OAL to touch lands with 75 Berger VLD in SPS Tactical chamber? If the SPS Tactical has chamber like the 700P 223 from early 2000s then you'll be out closer to 2.550" OAL for 0.040" jump to lands.

9 twist may or may not stabilize the 75 Berger VLD, 8 twist would be my suggestion for the 75s.

70 Berger VLD in 9 twist would be better/more reliable choice.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

My post on the tactical and heavies.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...886#Post3031886

They work in mine but I am seating them just into the lands using a AICS mag... 2.4something OAL

 

[Boxerglocker]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cbibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not gonna work

buy a .308

</div></div>

If it's possible... I'll get it to work.


I just realized after some reading on various other forums that in my haste to prep I neglected to account for the VLD seating depth. I'm gonna try 2.400 and use neck sized brass only.

 

[Boxerglocker]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My post on the tactical and heavies.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...886#Post3031886

They work in mine but I am seating them just into the lands using a AICS mag... 2.4something OAL </div></div>

Hey thanks for pointing me out to the direction of your post. Good read.

 

[1Sg (ret)]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

My SPS in .223 shoots 77smk 1/2 when i do my part.The load is 23 gr 2230 in win brass and wsr.oal is long cant remember off the top of my head.I have shot it out to 700 on steel with consistant hits.Hope this helps

 

[2ndPanzer]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

The 75 VLD load that i have found that works in several rifles, is 24.2 H4895 jump them .035. Worked in Lapua and LC cases

For the 75 Hornady 24.7 of RE15 at mag length works in just about anything as well.

 

[Boxerglocker]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

OK, got some more test loads down range and did groups at 100. I worked out 2.405 to be a a OAL that would give me about 0.035 off the lands. Best 5 shot group was 0.73 MOA at 100, that was the 25.3 load (slightly over what I found to be a 25g MAX for Varget and a 75g, but no pressure signs)
I think that I'll run a few more test loads in 0.1 g increments around the 25.3 to verify. Unless someone has reason to think I should call it good as is, please speak up.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

Drop back a grain and push them into the lands, working back up to pressure. I run them at about +.005 into the lands so its not a hard seat that wont extract should I need to. I also run about .003-004 neck tension on my redding bushing die.

 

[Boxerglocker]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drop back a grain and push them into the lands, working back up to pressure. I run them at about +.005 into the lands so its not a hard seat that wont extract should I need to. I also run about .003-004 neck tension on my redding bushing die.

</div></div>

Thanks Niles I'll give it a try... How tight are you getting with your groups at 100? I'm running 0.002-0.003 neck tension with my Lee neck collet die (polished mandrel)

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

My experience with vld's that they shoot great when they are in the lands. They also shoot great jumped, but finding that length can take a while. Like I said above, I have not jumped this bullet but in the past I would seat per Berger’s recommended .03” deeper each time and pick the best group out of those test groups and refine it by going .010 in each direction and see if they improve, in other words looking for that window that tends to be about .015-.020 wide in my experience. They (groups) may not be one hole’in but they will be real close as they were when seated just into the lands. But in the 223 using varget you may not be able to seat deep enough to find that point due to the powder volume.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boxerglocker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks Niles I'll give it a try... How tight are you getting with your groups at 100? I'm running 0.002-0.003 neck tension with my Lee neck collet die (polished mandrel)</div></div>

I have only shot one or may be two groups of three at 100 during load work up... and its been awhile but from memory they were all touching about .3 to .4ish I have been shooting steel with them at my 1000y range... when I am the only one there so I have a hope of hearing the impacts and it is my coyote round but I have not been successful there yet... dogs just not coming to my calls where I can hunt.

 

[Cegorach]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

What's the coldest temperature you have had success with these?

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

Sorry about that I load them into the lands.I would give the OAL but your rifel is not my rifel.I too forgot to say that I was useing IMR 4064 but cannot say to the ammount for I am not in my reloading room.

As I said before I couldn't or didn't try to get better accuracy while testing for this bullet.( 75gn Berger VLD )I just wanted a great hunting bullet for me and my daughter to hunt deer with.I will add that they really worked out great for this reason.I have even took a few coyotes with them out to 250 yards.All so as said before I will ened up going to the 70gn VLD when I get the chance too.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cegorach</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's the coldest temperature you have had success with these? </div></div>

Here is my original post
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...886#Post3031886

temps were in the low to mid 40's, with a DA at or near 0'

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 5R milspec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">( 75gn Berger VLD )I just wanted a great hunting bullet for me and my daughter to hunt deer with.I will add that they really worked out great for this reason.I have even took a few coyotes with them out to 250 yards.All so as said before I will ened up going to the 70gn VLD when I get the chance too.</div></div>

I am interested to hear more, tell me about how they performed on deer, range, muzzle velocity penetration/signs of expansion, etc... need details man.

I’ve been thinking of this application as well.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Berger 75 VLDs in a R700 SPS Tactical .223

Boxerglocker, the more I think about it and what you typed in your original post I think that once you seat into the lands it will shoot well for you. Here is why.
I first started out with 80 smk’s and they shot similar to what you were seeing. More of a shotgun pattern than a group. After playing with these VLD’s I went back and tested some Nosler CC’s in 80 grains and rather than jump them I seated those into the lands and guess what, they worked. Why, I am not sure, but it would appear that it makes them a little more stable.

 

[soteaser]

Fun

With vld'sA

My experience with vld's that they shoot great when they are in the lands. They also shoot great jumped, but finding that length can take a while. Like I said above, I have not jumped this bullet but in the past I would seat per Berger’s recommended .03” deeper each time and pick the best group out of those test groups and refine it by going .010 in each direction and see if they improve, in other words looking for that window that tends to be about .015-.020 wide in my experience. They (groups) may not be one hole’in but they will be real close as they were when seated just into the lnds. But in the 223 using varget you may not be able to seat deep enough to find that point due to the powder volume. Pq



Don't know why this wont post????
Yes, as niles said, you need to check length of base to ojive, your "sweet spot" may be .020, .040, or even. 100 off the lands, once you find it you wil get excellent groups, then work with diff powder size, not before. Unless the bullets are keyholeing on the target, you most likely don't have a stabilization issue. 9 twist is cutting it very close, you may want to try the 70g vld's. It takes a while but don't give up.....the rewards are well worth it. As far as deer go, ive had best results with 55-60g balistic tips or berger huting. The extra velocity make the kill very quick. I dont recommend over 200 yd shots, but under that most all deer ive shot in last 30 yrs have droped on the spot. Neck or behind shoulder, you will get about a doz. Wound channels and very rarely do they have exit holes. All energy is dumped right there. Good luck and happy hunting!
lessdrop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boxerglocker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks Niles I'll give it a try... How tight are you getting with your groups at 100? I'm running 0.002-0.003 neck tension with my Lee neck collet die (polished mandrel)</div></div>
Just makeing post roomw

I have only shot one or may be two groups of three at 100 during load work up... and its been awhile but from memory they were all touching about .3 to .4ish I have been shooting steel with them at my 1000y range... when I am the only one there so I have a hope of hearing the impacts and it is my coyote round but I have not been successful there yet... dogs just not coming to my calls where I can hunt.

 

[ilmonster]

I don't reload rifle cartridges (yet!), but as a point of reference have shot Hornady Match 75 gr. BTHP factory cartridges (and also Black Hills version with the same Hornady 75 gr. bullet) from my Rem 700 SPS Tac with a 1:9 twist, and can get 1/2 MOA groups at both 100 yds. and 200 yds. I actually shot a 15/16" 3 shot group at 200 yds. Per an article on 6mmbr.com about everything .223, the 75 gr. Bergers are substantially longer than the Hornady 75 gr BTHP bullets (just bullets, not complete cartridge). In the pictures on this website with a bunch of bullets lined up, the Berger 70 gr VLD's look to be the same length as the Hornady 75 gr. bullets that shoot so well in my 1:9 Rem 700 SPS. Cheers!

 

[BobinNC]

Berger Bullets has a twist recommendation on all their match bullets. For the 75 gr VLD they recommend 1-8 twist. Berger that will work in all 1-9 twist barrels are: 70 gr Match VLD Target, 73 gr Match BT Target.

 

[soteaser]

Back off on the powder, and now that you've found the base to lands measurement try. 010 each way from. 035, and if one or the other show signs of imp.w, refine that a bit more. Oonce you find your "sweet spot" , then play with powder. If useing varget, start about 23g and go from there. It seems like a lot of trouble, but once you have your perticular rifles ojive to lands measurement, you use that for all weight bergers. (And most others).
It is worth it all. My ar's and creedmoor, and. 308ts all shoot sub 1/2 moa with bergers. Wish they were a bit cheaper tho...
Good luck!
terry k.