Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

[Extreme454]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stick with the 7WSM... </div></div>

Frank has a lot more experience than I do... but I thought the same thing as I read this thread.

If you have a 7WSM... go with the momentum.

These "smaller" rifles are very capable. The first time I shot over a mile was with my 13 lb. 22" 300WM and it had a cheap Falcon Menace 4-14 on it at the time. We engaged steel plates from 100 yds to 1900 yds on the same day... all in gusting 15-20 mph wind. The plates under 800 yds. were 6"-10" rounds. The longer plates were torsos and the 1900 was a 36" round.

Shooting 208 Amax's, the 300 was a first round hit probably 90% of the time. Second round 100%.

I've dabbled out to 2300 yds. and been very impressed at the capability of this underrated caliber. And from I understand from the guys shooting 7's they are just *that* much flatter and better in the wind.

I've shot with guys who have .338LM's (IF they shoot 300 grs... The WM will keep right up if they shoot 250's) and 375CT's and yes, they are in another league. But for portability, flexibility and economy, I'll take my WM for the 100-2000 yd rifle.

John </div></div>

wow, see... stuff like this , keeps me confused. I mean your 300wm, is somewhat comparable in ballistics to my 7wsm. I'm impressed you had such success even in that wind.

keep it coming everyone...

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

First off if you know most of your shooting going to be 1200 yards and in with an occasional shot when possible out to 1500 -1800 yards then brother go with a .260 rem. If you were to come shoot the "Intimidator" with us here at TVP twice, once with a .300 win mag and once with a .260 rem. I can promise you would pick the .260 rem and more than likely you would beat yourself everytime with the .260 rem.
Not because the .260 is ballistically better, they are VERY close. But the .260 rem has half or even less recoil and is inheritently more accurate as in smaller groups. And when shooting a mile side by side the .260 rem wont loose.
Ok, the optics answer. Night Force is a great product and we sell several a month here at TVP because most of out customers have them now and demos always make the sale. There are a lot of good optics out there but when all boils down to repeatability the N/F has never let me down. Not to mention I was fortunant enough to break two world records with one.
More importantly when I'm engaging multiple targets as in on the Intimidator where I go from 550 yards to 882 to 670 then to 800 it tracks perfectly everytime. Glass quality/clairity is great and the only other close scope that can compare is a S&B. I own 3 5.5-22x56mm for a reason. I shoot a lot because it's part of my work and when I need x-amount of MOA I dail it in and it hits with consistancy. My customers love theirs too.
They simply work and are very accurate and dependable. The reticles are very nice too. Clean and crisp and very fine so there is not sight clutter. One of our top shooters here at TVP runs a N/F also in a game where accuracy and perfect tracking must mesh. He is the record holder of the "Intimidator". And anyone who has ever shot that course of fire knows what it takes to shoot those high scores. It's the shooter, his rifle, his loads and a SCOPE he can count on to engage tiny little steel targets when applying the proper dope.

 

[Extreme454]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your scope can't repeat what is the point ?

It needs to work that way, it can't work any other... if it doesn't sent it in and get it fixed. Nobody answered that because, that is what scopes do. </div></div>

nuff said on that... just had to hear it.

 

[Extreme454]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off if you know most of your shooting going to be 1200 yards and in with an occasional shot when possible out to 1500 -1800 yards then brother go with a .260 rem. If you were to come shoot the "Intimidator" with us here at TVP twice, once with a .300 win mag and once with a .260 rem. I can promise you would pick the .260 rem and more than likely you would beat yourself everytime with the .260 rem.
Not because the .260 is ballistically better, they are VERY close. But the .260 rem has half or even less recoil and is inheritently more accurate as in smaller groups. And when shooting a mile side by side the .260 rem wont loose.
Ok, the optics answer. Night Force is a great product and we sell several a month here at TVP because most of out customers have them now and demos always make the sale. There are a lot of good optics out there but when all boils down to repeatability the N/F has never let me down. Not to mention I was fortunant enough to break two world records with one.
More importantly when I'm engaging multiple targets as in on the Intimidator where I go from 550 yards to 882 to 670 then to 800 it tracks perfectly everytime. Glass quality/clairity is great and the only other close scope that can compare is a S&B. I own 3 5.5-22x56mm for a reason. I shoot a lot because it's part of my work and when I need x-amount of MOA I dail it in and it hits with consistancy. My customers love theirs too.
They simply work and are very accurate and dependable. The reticles are very nice too. Clean and crisp and very fine so there is not sight clutter. One of our top shooters here at TVP runs a N/F also in a game where accuracy and perfect tracking must mesh. He is the record holder of the "Intimidator". And anyone who has ever shot that course of fire knows what it takes to shoot those high scores. It's the shooter, his rifle, his loads and a SCOPE he can count on to engage tiny little steel targets when applying the proper dope. </div></div>

I had done some .260 homework about a month ago. I was all fired up for it, but, I started wondering if it was more of a lateral step from my 7wsm, so I kind of dropped it. I will look back in to it.

Thanks for the info on the scope and NF.

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

One thing about it, we have a lot of great choices.
Since you already have a 7 wsm I would stay there, that's a great cartridge to accomplish all that your looking for.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

Ya, I have both the 260 and 7WSM and honestly none of my 260s can hold a candle to the 7WSM.

The difference at 1000 is easy to see, 7.2 Mils to grand for the 7WSM, my fastest 260 is 7.6 mils, heavier bullets better BCs and higher velocities, the 7WSM has the 260 beat in my book. And my 7WSM has a shorter barrel than my fastest 260 and I am not even cut for the 180s, which George and those guys push faster than I do with the 175s. The 180s going 3050fps are impressive, which is why that load wins a lot of the matches.

 

[Breeze260]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Specs for TVP .260 Rem
Surgeon 591R KMW Bolt Knob
Kreiger 8 twist SS 29" tube
Terry Cross Sentinel Combat Stock/ KMW BM
Jewel Trigger HVR set at 1 lb.
N/F 5.5-22x56 NPR-1 HSZS
Norma Brass
Fed 210 primer
142 SMK @ 2904 fps with dedicated Tiger Shark Suppressor
42.5 Grains of H-4350
27.5 moa to 1000 yards from 100 yard zero
73 moa to 1740 yards
Please watch YouTube videos of TVP customers shooting their new .260 rems exact spec to one mile.

</div></div>

Here is one of the TVP 260's going a mile at Tom's Range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAGS7-azcTk

 

[JTG]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

Bad as Mr, just that simple.

 

[Extreme454]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

Lowlight,

You had said in an earlier post that you were runnin some ammo from Cor-Bon. Is it boxed ammo that is available retail? Or are you having them do something custom for you?

I only ask, because I've not experimented with much factory ammo, and I'd like to try some, even if its just for back up.

 

[Extreme454]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

Oh, I'm running a Rock barrel 1:8.7 twist, 26"

 

[steve123]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extreme454</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One rifle, one scope, one caliber, 100 yards to 2000 yards. What’s the best?

Ok, so I’m sure similar questions have been posted before, but let me clarify to help separate my question from others.

My definitions:

Best – The combination(<span style="font-weight: bold">combo</span>) of the following components that is the most accurate, consistent, efficient and repeatable.

Rifle – Factory production?, custom build?(if so, please explain which barrel, twist, etc), what options? added or changed? Muzzle brake, etc?

Scope – Brand? Magnification? Reticle? Factory add-ons(turrets,etc)

Hardware – Base?, rings?, bipod?, cheek riser? Cosine indicator? Level? Etc…

Caliber – This is wide open, and I’m sure could be debated for years, but with my scenarios below, it might get narrowed down quickly. Must be effective to 800 yards(might eliminate a lot of sub 30cal stuff).

The above four items can not add up to more than $8500 combined. Kudos to those that come up with legitimate <span style="font-weight: bold">combos</span> that are a substantial savings.

I’d also like the rifle to be mobile, and usable for hunting, so the heavier rifles are out, such as most Barrets, EDM, most 50 cals, etc..

I want to be shown what <span style="font-weight: bold">combo</span> can shoot ½ moa or better at 100 yards, and continue to hold that accuracy until _____ yards . Obviously, we all want to shoot 10” or better groups at 2000 yards, but lets keep it real. Lets say the shots past 1400 yards can be 1 moa.(hopefully under).

Its understood past 1200 yards things get tricky but lets assume all of the stars are aligned so we can focus on equipment not skill or outside elements.

Lets assume wind is 5 mph or so, its real world, cuz every time I want to shoot long range, there seems to be a breeze. This will help narrow down caliber choices as well.

This <span style="font-weight: bold">combo</span> should be capable of successfully engaging multiple targets from 100-2000 yards.

What I mean is this:
Shot 1 - Cold bore shot at 100 yards on the bullseye
Shot 2 – Dial up and shoot 435 yards
Shot 3 – Dial up and shoot 920 yards
Shot 4 – Dial up and shoot 1450 yards
Shot 5 – Dial up and shoot 2000 yards
Shot 6 – Dial down and shoot 710 yards
Shot 7 – Dial down and shoot 100 yards – back on zero, on the bullseye

Seven shots total, all on target, assuming the shooter is Bob Lee Swagger. The <span style="font-weight: bold">combo</span> needs to do its job. I would guess the scope has 50% of the responsibility in the above scenario.

The above yardages are just random, and I merely came up with them as examples to put the <span style="font-weight: bold">combo</span> through its paces.

Does this <span style="font-weight: bold">combo</span> exist? If so, do you have one? Can you perform the above with it? Or close?

Is this unrealistic?

I don’t want this to turn into speculation of what we ‘think’ will do the job, based on all the Kool-Aid online getting passed around. For example: “I’ve heard of a guy that has a custom rilfe, with 30” Broughton barrel chambered in 338 Edge, with Nightforce 5.5-22x50, and he claims he and his rifle can perform the above”. <span style="font-weight: bold">THIS WILL NOT DO!</span>

I want some first hand experience. I seriously want to hear from the guys that have these combos and have performed similar scenarios.

This post serves two purposes. Answers a lot of questions I have about the available equipment for ELR(does it all really work), and will help guide me to my next project.

I am on standby to sell my AR30 338 Lapua and my custom RBros rifle in 7WSM, and my Nightforces…. To build/buy, <span style="font-weight: bold">one combo</span>, of My Ultimate set up for the above scenarios. No pressure

Let the fun begin.

Don’t forget to subscribe to this thread, this will probably get good.
</div></div>

Just putting this out there.Hopefully it'll help you out some.

When I first got my 375CT it weighed 21 LBS with NF scope.The first thing I did to it was add a very heavy steel forstock to it.

LOL.IMO 375CT's are for laying down prone on a high place and laying waist to stuff ridiculously far away.IMO it's not a walk around type of a gun at all.Also they're so expensive to shoot you end up not wanting to shoot it at less than 1000Y.

My last two ELR outings I was amazed at what JTG's Surgeon Remedy with 300 Bergers was capable of.He was nailing a nearly 2300Y plate with ease in not ideal conditions.My 30-375R with 240's blows noticeably more in the wind at those distances compared to his 338L/300B's.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extreme454</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stick with the 7WSM... </div></div>

Frank has a lot more experience than I do... but I thought the same thing as I read this thread.

If you have a 7WSM... go with the momentum.

These "smaller" rifles are very capable. The first time I shot over a mile was with my 13 lb. 22" 300WM and it had a cheap Falcon Menace 4-14 on it at the time. We engaged steel plates from 100 yds to 1900 yds on the same day... all in gusting 15-20 mph wind. The plates under 800 yds. were 6"-10" rounds. The longer plates were torsos and the 1900 was a 36" round.

Shooting 208 Amax's, the 300 was a first round hit probably 90% of the time. Second round 100%.

I've dabbled out to 2300 yds. and been very impressed at the capability of this underrated caliber. And from I understand from the guys shooting 7's they are just *that* much flatter and better in the wind.

I've shot with guys who have .338LM's (IF they shoot 300 grs... The WM will keep right up if they shoot 250's) and 375CT's and yes, they are in another league. But for portability, flexibility and economy, I'll take my WM for the 100-2000 yd rifle.

John </div></div>

wow, see... <span style="font-weight: bold">stuff like this , keeps me confused.</span> I mean your 300wm, is somewhat comparable in ballistics to my 7wsm. I'm impressed you had such success even in that wind.

keep it coming everyone...
</div></div>

What specifically is confusing about it?

John

 

[Extreme454]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

Sorry, Should have been more clear. Right when I'm thinking I'm headed towards building 338Lapua or maybe a 338 Edge. Several of you show me that I can make good use of my 7wsm. Not that you were confusing.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

OK...gotcha.

Yeah, I was sort of caught in the same quandary. Was thinking about stepping up to 30-375, 300NM or 300 Hulk, but may actually go backwards (?) and build a .260 to work on my short game.

John

 

[JL]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...


But why to go wildcat since 300 Lapua Magnum is official CIP cartridge? Dies are available from Midway, and Pacific tool offers reamers.
So whats the difference between Hulk and original?

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot the Mk248 Mod1 to 1250yard at sea level under less than desirable conditions, ie: a bit cold. Not ELR but for sea level, pretty good.

</div></div>
Frank,

Is that a Mk13? Is it a Crane gun?
What NF (& what reticle) do you have on top?

I have a Mk13 being built right now (in lefty) and am trying to decide on a scope.
I would use one of my S&Bs if not for the bolt illumination knob clearance issue.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first time I shot over a mile was with my 13 lb. 22" 300WM and it had a cheap Falcon Menace 4-14 on it at the time. We engaged steel plates from 100 yds to 1900 yds on the same day... all in gusting 15-20 mph wind. The plates under 800 yds. were 6"-10" rounds. The longer plates were torsos and the 1900 was a 36" round.

Shooting 208 Amax's, <span style="font-weight: bold">the 300 was a first round hit probably 90% of the time</span>. Second round 100%.

</div></div>

Please clarify--is it your claim that you had first round hits with your 300wm at 1900 yards 9 times out of 10? Extremely difficult to believe.

 

[onlyfineknives]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

Tom,

Have you played with any lathe turned bullets? I just got some lehigh 245gr 338's to try and according to Bryan Litz their claimed .850 bc should be pretty close, maybe a little under.

I have been able to run them at 3100 out of 26" surgeon 338 without any issues and am now trying to work up a load.

My only question is if I'll get them to shoot accurately.

Any experience to help here?

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

I would say brass life, pressure to velocity ratio and accuracy and the more than proven track record. All the high end performers are so called barrel burners so that we all have to deal with. There are a lot of great performing cartridges out there and we see hundreds of them a year here at TVP, and only one holds the title on the Intimidator.
I'm not saying the .300 Hulk is the greatest cartridge out there but in the .30 cal magnum realm I would say yes it is.
Training courses like the Intimidator proves what works with the ever changing conditions and distances.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

Given the caliber of other people posting here, I should probably just stay out of the mix, but some additional info that I can add which may help some folks just looking into things:

“MAGNUMS”
7mm WSM – If you follow 1,000 yard F-Class Competitions this round has been taking it to the guys shooting 6.5s pretty consistently. Most recently the British Team beat the US Team shooting 7mm WSMs at the 2009 World Championships. Of course the win came with a price, barrels shot out with as few as 700 rounds, and shooters who took a beating with the recoil. The 7mm Bullets have some of the highest BCs available until you get into the real “heavy weight” bullets above 250 grains.
PROS
- Good Ballistics (G7 BCs: 180 JLK = .330, 175 SMK = .327, 180 VLD = .337)
- Can be run off of a smaller / lighter rifle platform
- Good selection of off the shelf ammo and reloading components
CONS
- Magazine options for the Short Mag are not as common
- Barrel Life, especially if running hot / high performance loads
- Recoil, especially if running hot / high performance loads, or using a lightweight rifle platform

.300 WM – This was the “Standard” until the Short Mags and .338s came into the picture. Using bullets like the AMAX, SMK, and VLD, it can produce some good ballistics. The US Army just made the decision to upgrade its M24s to .300 WM shooting a 220 SMK.
PROS
- Good Ballistics (G7 BCs: 210 AMAX = .324, 210-240 SMKs = .316-.332, 210 VLD = .323)
- Good selection of off the shelf ammo and reloading components
CONS
- Belted Magnum Case (subjective, not a real problem if managed properly during reloading)
- Requires a long action receiver (subjective, depending on builders preference)
- Barrel Life, especially if running hot / high performance loads
- Recoil, especially if running hot / high performance loads

With Both Calibers,
If you can run a Brake or Suppressor on the rifle, the recoil can be easily managed. However if you are using the rifle in competitions such as F-Class that will not be an option. Barrel Life comes down to if you want absolute performance which will wear it out very quickly (500-1,000 rounds), or if you are willing to compromise a little on the performance and extend the life. With both calibers, you can walk into most “reputable” gun stores and pull some “decent” ammo off the shelf.


“6.5 CROWD”
The 6.5mm crowd has been growing by leaps and bounds in the last couple of years in terms of both popularity and availability. Many National Titles have been won using one of the 6.5mm rounds. Most recently Sherri Gallagher won a 2010 National Match Title at Camp Perry shooting a .260 Remington.

The 6.5 Crowd Includes:
6.5-284 Norma
6.5x47 Lapua
6.5x55 Swede
6.5 Creedmoor
.260 Remington

Of those rounds, per many of the posts here, the .260 Remington is quickly becoming a crowd favorite among tactical shooters (6.5 Creedmoor is in similar company).
PROS
- Good Ballistics (G7 BCs: 140 AMAX = .299, 140 JLK = .327, 142 SMK = .301, 140 VLD = .313)
- Can be run off of a smaller / lighter rifle platform
- Very manageable recoil
- Will run well out of a .308 magazine setup
- Barrel life is fairly high (2,00-3,000 rounds) with reasonable loads
CONS
- Off the shelf ammo is limited
- Factory Rifles, especially tactical models, are very limited


PERSONALLY,
I spent a fair amount of time shooting at Thunder Valley last year at ranges from 100-1,200 yards. During my early trips I showed up with a truck load of rifles to include a .260, .308, and .300 WM. After shooting all of those calibers, I made a decision to just focus on the .260 and leave the others at home. Per Tom’s comments, it was producing the best and most consistent results, and it was doing it without having to go to the extreme of using the .300 Win Mag. During the year at Thunder Valley, I saw everything from a .243 up to a 300 Hulk. Without a doubt the big heavy magnums like the 300 and 338 could do better beyond 1,000 yards especially when the wind was kicking, but they also can come with some significant issues such as recoil and ammo cost. If you can manage those issues, and you are going to be spending a lot of time shooting 1,000-2,000 yards, then probably the magnums will be the best options.

For me, 2011 will be the year of the .260! I can shoot it in anything other than a caliber restricted class. The ammo cost will not break the bank. I can run it without a brake or suppressor and not get beaten to death by recoil. While it may not have the absolute best ballistic performance it is close enough for me given the pros and cons of running a magnum.

Is there one caliber or rifle setup that can do it all?

IMHO, the answer is they all have Pros and Cons, you have to weigh them all and decide what the best option is for you personally. What works well for one shooter, may not work as well for another!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

PS: I did not get into the .338s because IMHO they are on the extreme upper end of the spectrums (size, weight, recoil, cost, etc) along with the 408 and 50 BMG. Doesn't mean they are not a good option, but IMHO they are "overkill" until you are focusing strictly on Extreme Long Range Shooting.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first time I shot over a mile was with my 13 lb. 22" 300WM and it had a cheap Falcon Menace 4-14 on it at the time. We engaged steel plates from 100 yds to 1900 yds on the same day... all in gusting 15-20 mph wind. The plates under 800 yds. were 6"-10" rounds. The longer plates were torsos and the 1900 was a 36" round.

Shooting 208 Amax's, <span style="font-weight: bold">the 300 was a first round hit probably 90% of the time</span>. Second round 100%.

</div></div>

Please clarify--is it your claim that you had first round hits with your 300wm at 1900 yards 9 times out of 10? Extremely difficult to believe. </div></div>

On that particular day, we did not spend a lot of time engaging one plate multiple times. We moved from plate to plate, assessing wind, making adjustments and getting on plate as quickly as possible. First round hits were stressed, but rapid second round follow-ups were also stressed, so that once the wind was accurately gauged (if we missed) then we could make a wind hold adjustment before the conditions changed. Once we hit the plate we moved to the next.

The 1900 plate was extra credit and only three shooters engaged it. The other two had a 50 BMG and a 375CT. My first shot was 2 mil right due to a misunderstanding between my spotter and I. Would have been a cold bore hit if I'd not held 2 extra mil for wind (I'd also dialed 2 mil). The second round hit at 12 o' clock, right at the top of the plate, dead center. I fired twice more to see if it was a fluke and the next two rounds missed *just* over the top of the plate at 11 o'clock and 12 0' clock. Under MOA. I was pretty happy. The longest I'd shot up to that point was 1300 yds.

Keep in mind that this is a 36" plate. The wind was howling though, so if the conditions switched, you're right, it would have been really tough. With a good wind call it really wasn't that hard. But if it was calm day I'm thinking that 9 of 10 is doable. The most difficult part of hitting that plate at 1900 that day was that my Falcon took a shit and wouldn't focus above 10 power and then just barely.

Does that clarify?

John

 

[onlyfineknives]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

Tom said "I would say brass life, pressure to velocity ratio and accuracy and the more than proven track record. All the high end performers are so called barrel burners so that we all have to deal with. There are a lot of great performing cartridges out there and we see hundreds of them a year here at TVP, and only one holds the title on the Intimidator.
I'm not saying the .300 Hulk is the greatest cartridge out there but in the .30 cal magnum realm I would say yes it is.
Training courses like the Intimidator proves what works with the ever changing conditions and distances."

Is this answering my question about lathe turned bullets or back to the main question of the best cartridge?

Thanks!

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On that particular day, we did not spend a lot of time engaging one plate multiple times. We moved from plate to plate, assessing wind, making adjustments and getting on plate as quickly as possible. First round hits were stressed, but rapid second round follow-ups were also stressed, so that once the wind was accurately gauged (if we missed) then we could make a wind hold adjustment before the conditions changed. Once we hit the plate we moved to the next.

The 1900 plate was extra credit and only three shooters engaged it. The other two had a 50 BMG and a 375CT. My first shot was 2 mil right due to a misunderstanding between my spotter and I. Would have been a cold bore hit if I'd not held 2 extra mil for wind (I'd also dialed 2 mil). The second round hit at 12 o' clock, right at the top of the plate, dead center. I fired twice more to see if it was a fluke and the next two rounds missed *just* over the top of the plate at 11 o'clock and 12 0' clock. Under MOA. I was pretty happy. The longest I'd shot up to that point was 1300 yds.

Keep in mind that this is a 36" plate. The wind was howling though, so if the conditions switched, you're right, it would have been really tough. But if it was calm day I'm thinking that 9 of 10 is doable.

Does that clarify?

John </div></div>

"Nearly" a "cold" bore hit...after a day of shooting other targets; and 1 for 4 on the 1900 yard plate...but 9 out of 10 first round hits is "doable". Under 1 MOA group, despite 3 of 4 shots missing your target.

Indeed it does provide clarification...

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

Shannon,

I made a mistake there friend. I got a call and it interupted my post and I posted in the wrong place.
I spent about ten minutes typing out a detailed description about lathe turned bullets and went to photo bucket to post a picture for you..when I got back I had lost my dang reply box somehow. I'm sorry I will try again. I never had that happen before..weird.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-snip-</div></div>

"Nearly" a "cold" bore hit...after a day of shooting other targets; and 1 for 4 on the 1900 yard plate...but 9 out of 10 first round hits is "doable". Under 1 MOA group, despite 3 of 4 shots missing your target.

Indeed it does provide clarification... </div></div>

OP asked for examples of our experiences hitting multiple targets at multiple ranges requiring dialing up an down. I gave one example. It is what it is. I missed the 1900 yd. plate as well as a couple others on my first shot. Hence the 90% not 100%.

Instead of taking veiled shots at other contributors, you might be able to add to the discussion with some positive experience of your own.

John

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Nearly" a "cold" bore hit...after a day of shooting other targets</div></div>

Just caught that... you're right that was the first shot of day two, more of same... multiple plates, different distances. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

John

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

Shannon,

Ok I figured out what happened. I was replying to JL's post.
Then I went to work on yours and somehow lost it in the mix.
I'm out of time for now, have an appointment at 1:00 p.m. to demo a rifle and suppressor for a customer.
I have some info you requested and I will try to have it up by evening. Again, sorry.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Nearly" a "cold" bore hit...after a day of shooting other targets</div></div>

Just caught that... you're right that was the first shot of day two, more of same... multiple plates, different distances. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

John </div></div>

No veiled shots, I did nothing more than quote back what you said. Nothing in your post addresses the OP's question regarding an optic's ability to accurately track and return to zero. Rather you took this thread as an opportunity to bloviate about the ONE time you shot past 1300. Nice contribution...

 

[onlyfineknives]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

Thanks Tom!

I look forward to your info.

 

[Extreme454]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given the caliber of other people posting here, I should probably just stay out of the mix, but some additional info that I can add which may help some folks just looking into things:

“MAGNUMS”
7mm WSM – If you follow 1,000 yard F-Class Competitions this round has been taking it to the guys shooting 6.5s pretty consistently. Most recently the British Team beat the US Team shooting 7mm WSMs at the 2009 World Championships. Of course the win came with a price, barrels shot out with as few as 700 rounds, and shooters who took a beating with the recoil. The 7mm Bullets have some of the highest BCs available until you get into the real “heavy weight” bullets above 250 grains.
PROS
- Good Ballistics (G7 BCs: 180 JLK = .330, 175 SMK = .327, 180 VLD = .337)
- Can be run off of a smaller / lighter rifle platform
- Good selection of off the shelf ammo and reloading components
CONS
- Magazine options for the Short Mag are not as common
- Barrel Life, especially if running hot / high performance loads
- Recoil, especially if running hot / high performance loads, or using a lightweight rifle platform

.300 WM – This was the “Standard” until the Short Mags and .338s came into the picture. Using bullets like the AMAX, SMK, and VLD, it can produce some good ballistics. The US Army just made the decision to upgrade its M24s to .300 WM shooting a 220 SMK.
PROS
- Good Ballistics (G7 BCs: 210 AMAX = .324, 210-240 SMKs = .316-.332, 210 VLD = .323)
- Good selection of off the shelf ammo and reloading components
CONS
- Belted Magnum Case (subjective, not a real problem if managed properly during reloading)
- Requires a long action receiver (subjective, depending on builders preference)
- Barrel Life, especially if running hot / high performance loads
- Recoil, especially if running hot / high performance loads

With Both Calibers,
If you can run a Brake or Suppressor on the rifle, the recoil can be easily managed. However if you are using the rifle in competitions such as F-Class that will not be an option. Barrel Life comes down to if you want absolute performance which will wear it out very quickly (500-1,000 rounds), or if you are willing to compromise a little on the performance and extend the life. With both calibers, you can walk into most “reputable” gun stores and pull some “decent” ammo off the shelf.


“6.5 CROWD”
The 6.5mm crowd has been growing by leaps and bounds in the last couple of years in terms of both popularity and availability. Many National Titles have been won using one of the 6.5mm rounds. Most recently Sherri Gallagher won a 2010 National Match Title at Camp Perry shooting a .260 Remington.

The 6.5 Crowd Includes:
6.5-284 Norma
6.5x47 Lapua
6.5x55 Swede
6.5 Creedmoor
.260 Remington

Of those rounds, per many of the posts here, the .260 Remington is quickly becoming a crowd favorite among tactical shooters (6.5 Creedmoor is in similar company).
PROS
- Good Ballistics (G7 BCs: 140 AMAX = .299, 140 JLK = .327, 142 SMK = .301, 140 VLD = .313)
- Can be run off of a smaller / lighter rifle platform
- Very manageable recoil
- Will run well out of a .308 magazine setup
- Barrel life is fairly high (2,00-3,000 rounds) with reasonable loads
CONS
- Off the shelf ammo is limited
- Factory Rifles, especially tactical models, are very limited


PERSONALLY,
I spent a fair amount of time shooting at Thunder Valley last year at ranges from 100-1,200 yards. During my early trips I showed up with a truck load of rifles to include a .260, .308, and .300 WM. After shooting all of those calibers, I made a decision to just focus on the .260 and leave the others at home. Per Tom’s comments, it was producing the best and most consistent results, and it was doing it without having to go to the extreme of using the .300 Win Mag. During the year at Thunder Valley, I saw everything from a .243 up to a 300 Hulk. Without a doubt the big heavy magnums like the 300 and 338 could do better beyond 1,000 yards especially when the wind was kicking, but they also can come with some significant issues such as recoil and ammo cost. If you can manage those issues, and you are going to be spending a lot of time shooting 1,000-2,000 yards, then probably the magnums will be the best options.

For me, 2011 will be the year of the .260! I can shoot it in anything other than a caliber restricted class. The ammo cost will not break the bank. I can run it without a brake or suppressor and not get beaten to death by recoil. While it may not have the absolute best ballistic performance it is close enough for me given the pros and cons of running a magnum.

Is there one caliber or rifle setup that can do it all?

IMHO, the answer is they all have Pros and Cons, you have to weigh them all and decide what the best option is for you personally. What works well for one shooter, may not work as well for another!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

PS: I did not get into the .338s because IMHO they are on the extreme upper end of the spectrums (size, weight, recoil, cost, etc) along with the 408 and 50 BMG. Doesn't mean they are not a good option, but IMHO they are "overkill" until you are focusing strictly on Extreme Long Range Shooting. </div></div>

Very well said. Your perspective on the different calibers and how each has it pros and cons, IMO , was well described and easy to understand.

I'm coming more to the conclusion that I need to decide what is more important to me, in terms of range and distance.

Thanks

keep 'em comin...

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Nearly" a "cold" bore hit...after a day of shooting other targets</div></div>

Just caught that... you're right that was the first shot of day two, more of same... multiple plates, different distances. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

John </div></div>

No veiled shots, I did nothing more than quote back what you said. Nothing in your post addresses the OP's question regarding an optic's ability to accurately track and return to zero. Rather you took this thread as an opportunity to bloviate about the ONE time you shot past 1300. Nice contribution... </div></div>

Veiled was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Which is more than you've contributed here.

I have been very patient with your questions and have answered them honestly and forthrightly because I have nothing to hide. I gave a specific personal experience as requested. If I was "bloviating" it was not intentional I can assure you. When I bloviate it's usually with good friends over a beer. Or two.

Most would assume that engaging plates at different ranges and getting 90% first round hits where all the misses were wind, NOT elevation, would imply, at least to anyone here who wants to take part in a serious discussion, that the scope was capable of dialing up and down accurately and repeatedly. That was intention of that post. But perhaps the obvious is not so obvious.

I do not have the pedigree of Frank or Tom or a host of others here but neither am I some internet novice. When I give personal examples it is NOT to brag about what a great shot I am, but to draw attention to just how capable some of these systems are, WITHOUT some expert marksman behind them. I want others who don't have the experience that we have to realize THEY CAN DO THIS TOO. There ARE guys who are learning that you don't HAVE to be a trained sniper or have $8000 in equipment to hit really small things a long way away. I get PM's from guys once or twice a month telling me that they made their first hits at "x" distance. I find that very rewarding and hopefully good for the sport.

With the exception of yours, every other post in this thread has been positive, helpful and courteous. Out of respect to the OP, would you care to share your experiences of shooting from 100-2000 yds. or perhaps your idea of what combination of equipment might be helpful to him? Because THAT would add value to this thread.

John

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing.

yes, Mike very well said and I for one know you have learned a lot and what works in all most realistic shooting situations.
The .260 covers it all and when you add up all the pros and cons it's hard to beat. I don't think there is a "best" out there to be honest. Maybe a best out to a certain distance and circumstance. But these "best" posts get some real good info and experience out there that may other wise not be told or discussed. Not doubt the .260, .300 wsm, 7 wsm, .300 WM, .300 Norma, .300 Hulk and .338 LM are the in the top FIVE somewhere in their own right. It jsut depends on where you are and how far you want to shoot and the accuracy you NEED at a paticular distance. If it's a matter of "best" in longevity and accuracy and performance out to 1000 yards then the .308 is king. And that is fact. It's all in how you want to word it..the word "best". Does that make sense or do I need some more sleep?..lol.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

John- My contribution--ok hows this--OP be sure to thoroughly vet the information you receive on the internet as quite often, people preach as gospel, a single isolated experience and invent statistics in an attempt to support their BS.

I will readily admit that the couple times I shot past 1200 do not render me an expert in ELR. Accordingly, I would NEVER attempt to advise in this area of which my knowledge is quite limited.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

I'm here to bloviate, and chew bubble gum...

...and I'm fresh out of bubble gum!!!




(sorry, couldn't resist)


Tom, thanks for taking the time here to share your knowledge and experience. A lot of good info.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John- My contribution--ok hows this--OP be sure to thoroughly vet the information you receive on the internet as quite often, people preach as gospel, a single isolated experience and invent statistics in an attempt to support their BS.

I will readily admit that the couple times I shot past 1200 do not render me an expert in ELR. Accordingly, I would NEVER attempt to advise in this area of which my knowledge is quite limited.
</div></div>

I have no problem with that whatsoever. There is a ton of BS on these forums, no doubt. I would simply recommend that you begin your "vetting" *without* the assumption that what your reading is necessarily BS. In my case, there are several very credible shooters who can vouch for my statements. But you don't know me from Adam and I certainly could be some poser feeding OP and others BS information.

But no worries as I said... in the long run this is about the sport, not me. No harm... no foul.

John

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm here to bloviate, and chew bubble gum...

...and I'm fresh out of bubble gum!!!




(sorry, couldn't resist)


Tom, thanks for taking the time here to share your knowledge and experience. A lot of good info. </div></div>

You know the thread is getting serious when we paraphrase Rowdy Roddy Piper!!!

John- No worries. Happy New Year.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tigerbikes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot the Mk248 Mod1 to 1250yard at sea level under less than desirable conditions, ie: a bit cold. Not ELR but for sea level, pretty good.

</div></div>
Frank,

Is that a Mk13? Is it a Crane gun?
What NF (& what reticle) do you have on top?

I have a Mk13 being built right now (in lefty) and am trying to decide on a scope.
I would use one of my S&Bs if not for the bolt illumination knob clearance issue.</div></div>

That is a Mk13 from Crane, just a NF Mil Dot, their solid military version. All the Crane stuff, well at least most of it, is NF products and they use just a plain old mil dot, although I am seeing new combo velocity reticles that are half BDC holdover and half Mil Dot


FYI, I ran the numbers on my 260 vs my 7WSm and my 7 wins by 1 Mil, 26.4 versus 27.2 to 2000 yards... although I go subsonic before depending on conditions.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, I ran the numbers on my 260 vs my 7WSm and my 7 wins by 1 Mil, 26.4 versus 27.2 to 2000 yards... although I go subsonic before depending on conditions. </div></div>

Frank,

That's a LOT closer than I would have thought.

Is that TX or CO?

Could you post pertinents about the two loads and rifles?

Just starting to really look hard at the .260 again and find this very intriguing.

Thanks,

John

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm here to bloviate, and chew bubble gum...

...and I'm fresh out of bubble gum!!!




(sorry, couldn't resist)


Tom, thanks for taking the time here to share your knowledge and experience. A lot of good info. </div></div>

You know the thread is getting serious when we paraphrase <span style="font-weight: bold">Rowdy Roddy Piper</span>!!!

John- No worries. Happy New Year. </div></div>

Had to Google that...

Leave it to Shane....

Happy New Year to you too.

John

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

I will pull it, remember, my barrels are short and I am not running them as fast as other people, although in my 260, it's considered a stout load.

This was my 139gr / 43.3gr H4350 load versus my Cor Bon 175gr 2900fps load... Neither are considered fast speed wise, but powder wise my 260 load is hot in some rifles.

With 180gr going 3050fps the 7WSM will open up the advantage quite a bit. Also someone else could afford more speed by using a longer barrel. Mine are both under 26", actually they are 24", going to 26 or 28 would help the cause at distance.

 

[He Shoot Me]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

My bank account hates you all.....

-Pat

 

[Extreme454]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

So, a brief summary of the information collected so far in regards to original post.

Yes, these shots can, and have been made, obviously within the accuracy of each rifle and caliber.

We assume, As long as the optics are a top name brand with a reputation for holding zero and accurate repeatability, the scope does its job. I only say this because nobody has questioned the reliability of the optics.

Which leaves... which caliber is best for the job?

I now see, 'best' is in the eye of the beholder, especially for this particular scenario.

It seems the larger calibers, 300 Hulk, 338 Lapua, 375 Cheytacs, and so on, will holder tighter moa(on an average) in the longer ranges, giving the elements of wind, etc..

So, someone could say, there's your answer.

But, all those days you want to shoot, lets say 300-800 yards, go on a hunt, shoot alongside your buddies, etc, you're the guy luggin around the heavier rifle, blowing everyones shooting mat up with your muzzle brake, and stealing money from your kids piggy bank to feed the rifle.

With the 7wsm, the .260, and the like, you have highly regarded BC's, more manageable rifles, less recoil, less expensive to shoot, but... you sacrifice in the ELR's(wind bucking, etc).

My new goal, is to find a 'happy medium'. The .260 sounds pretty awesome, but since I already have a custom 7wsm, I probably won't make the switch. In the back of my mind, I still want a 338 Edge.

Keep 'em comin...

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

WOW when I first saw this thread with only a couple posts, I thought it was going to go right in the toilet. I have been riveted to it now with the wealth of good info. Whooda' thunk.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WOW when I first saw this thread with only a couple posts, I thought it was going to go right in the toilet. I have been riveted to it now with the wealth of good info. Whooda' thunk. </div></div>

I know, huh? ... it is after all 1000+ yds. ... and we ALL know what can happen here. But pretty civil so far.

John

 

[groper]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

sounds like you have your answer alright.... keep your custom 7wsm and replace your 338lapua with a 30lb 375VM from dave viers with a 40in bbl for your ELR game... pretty much best of everything for any distance, you couldnt want more... except for wanting only 1 rifle that is...

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

... And on that note I just flushed my nasal sinuses with orange juice...

You shall pay for that groper.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WOW when I first saw this thread with only a couple posts, I thought it was going to go right in the toilet. I have been riveted to it now with the wealth of good info. Whooda' thunk. </div></div>

I know, huh? ... it is after all 1000+ yds. ... and we ALL know what can happen here. But pretty civil so far.

John </div></div>

Jeez, you are making me feel guilty...

 

[jrob300]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WOW when I first saw this thread with only a couple posts, I thought it was going to go right in the toilet. I have been riveted to it now with the wealth of good info. Whooda' thunk. </div></div>

I know, huh? ... it is after all 1000+ yds. ... and we ALL know what can happen here. But pretty civil so far.

John </div></div>

Jeez, you are making me feel guilty...

</div></div>

You shouldn't... this thread is downright tame compared to what has transpired in the past... did you get in on the "Rotation of the Earth" thread? THAT was a popcorn and beer thread...

The mere typing of the words "Coriolis Effect" or "Spin Drift" brings the trolls running like zombies to fresh brains.

John

 

[F4D]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

Should someone bring up the effect of the stars alignment between 10 am and 2pm???

 

[flyboy]

Re: Best 100-2000 yards? see scenario, Intriguing...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The mere typing of the words "Coriolis Effect" or "Spin Drift" brings the trolls running like zombies to fresh brains.

John </div></div>

That's down right signature material right there.