"Best" .308 Win. LR-rifle for max. 5 grant?

[Jayjay1]

Hey guys,
I know some, but am not an expert in this subject.

So, a friend wants to join the LR game and fortunately for him, money isn´t his biggest problem.
He wants to have only one LR-rifle (because he is a pistol competitor and a hunter as well) and he wants it in .308 Winchester (that is set, pls no discussion about that).

This - up to - 5 grant .308 Winchester rifle should go safely (supersonic) to 1.000yds.

Which rifle would you recommend to your friend?

 

[MK20]

AIAT

 

[Jayjay1]

AIAT

Are their barrels only in 1:12"?

 

[hafejd30]

At that price AIAT or AX

LRI or GAP can spin up a barrel in 1:10 etc. Factory is 1:12

You can change the barrel out in a couple minutes with the quickloc

My AIAT has a 20” 1:12 and shoots 178 ELDX very well. For 1,000 yard my preference would be a 1:10 in a longer configuration

 

[Jayjay1]

My AIAT has a 20” 1:12 and shoots 178 ELDX very well. For 1,000 yard my preference would be a 1:10 in a longer configuration

That were my thoughts with the twist, 1:12 will probably not take heavier bullets.

Barrel length 26ish, or will shorter work as well?

 

[hafejd30]

That were my thoughts with the twist, 1:12 will probably not take heavier bullets.

Barrel length 26ish, or will shorter work as well?

Shorter will work. Guys do it with 20”. Longer will work better as it adds to the velocity. If it was a range gun longer the better. If you intend to carry in field or blind then shorter is better for the application. Realizing you give up velocity which is your friend for a 308 at 1K.

I’d personally go 26” on a range gun. I ran a 28” 308 with 178 gr pills and it did 1,000 without issue.

But for 1,000 yards I wouldn’t go 308 in this current availability of calibers. But you said you didn’t want to go there so I won’t

 

[Jayjay1]

Well, the gun laws over here make it expensive, time-consuming and complicated to swap barrels.
So he decided to accept a less better performance for a longer durability of the setup, that´s why.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Which rifle would you recommend then?

 

[hafejd30]

Well, the gun laws over here make it expensive, time-consuming and complicated to swap barrels.
So he decided to accept a less better performance for a longer durability of the setup, that´s why.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Which rifle would you recommend then?

As stated above I like the Accuracy International platform. At least at the $5,000 price range you stated. Mine is the AT model

They have a quickloc barrel setup so you can change barrels yourself with a torque wrench/bit to loosen and retighten the screw on the action

However I don’t know your situation on how much an AI would cost and what the barrel would cost or process to get it. Where I’m at it’s as simple as (order gun, order as many barrels as you want, change at will)

Now that’s just the gun. If 5k is the budget for everything including optics then the AI may not be an option. But when money isn’t your biggest problem you can afford to buy once cry once

 

[Steel+Killer]

I think what makes AIs (other than they shoot very well) worth the money is that you can so easily swap barrels on them, but if you can't have that option because of laws where you are. Then I might recommend a Tikka T3x TAC A1 or a Tikka T3x CTR great factory rifles with probably the best single stage triggers to be had on a factory rifle.

 

[MK20]

But tikka barrels are KNOWN to be slow. This is not what he wants, especially when trying to launch heavies far.

The 1:12 twist will launch 178 gr projectiles to 1K with ease. I have done it before with a 20" 1:12 twist barrel with no problem. The factory AIAT is a 24' I believe.

 

[Jayjay1]

The 5 k are meant only for the rifle, scope etc. are next step.


A 1:12 twist seems a risk to me, may work - may not work with heavier bullets.
Just from the books it normally won´t, but I have no experience with that combo.

 

[db2000]

If he's not swapping barrels, as mentioned above, I'd look into a custom build and skip AI. He's likely to be happy with that, and if not, resale is often very good if the build is correct. This then becomes an heirloom rifle if he has kids or grandkids. There troves of information on here regarding customs builds. GAP is an excellent consideration. I vote 1:10".

 

[hafejd30]

The 5 k are meant only for the rifle, scope etc. are next step.


A 1:12 twist seems a risk to me, may work - may not work with heavier bullets.
Just from the books it normally won´t, but I have no experience with that combo.

How heavy does he plan to shoot? Keep in mind a 155 Lapua Scenar can do 1,000. As well as a 175 smk, 178 ELDM

 

[Matches Malone]

1:12 will work to 1000y with a 178 ELD. I’ve seent it. 20 inch barrel and density altitude will really determine how much gryscopic stability the bullet with have. I think problem is with this particular set up is, if you’re on the coast in the winter, there is a possibility of dynamic stability issues beyond 1000y. If you have to use a 1:12, I’d try to get it a little longer than 20 inches. (That’s what she said)

 

[308pirate]

A 1:12 twist seems a risk to me, may work - may not work with heavier bullets. Just from the books it normally won´t, but I have no experience with that combo.

1 in 12 rifling works perfectly fine with bullets up to 180 grains. I know this from personal experience with a 24" barreled 308 with hits all the way to 1100 yards.

You've been told that already at least once before in this thread. You came here for the benefit of our experience, so take it and stop speculating.

 

[JMGlasgow]

Where do you live and what is available? You mentioned strict laws and difficulty swapping barrels. I'm assuming you live in a country that registers the barrel.

 

[jcmullis2]

He should go with a custom build. He can have everything the way he wants it.

 

[MarinePMI]

Where do you live and what is available? You mentioned strict laws and difficulty swapping barrels. I'm assuming you live in a country that registers the barrel.

He's in Germany.

 

[MK20]

I have shot my issued MK20 at sea level with a 1:12 20" barrel out to 1000. This is using the rather slow M118LR loading as well. Handloads will be much better with something like a 178 Hornady.
Stop reading so many books and listen to folks on here. Most of the long range books out there are very dated and have lots of bad info in them. There are exceptions though. We know that European laws screw you guys over when it comes to rebarreling (esp in Germany where you guys still have the Nazi gun laws on the books for some unknown reason, I mean, they didn't really work out that well before). We won't steer you wrong. A good rifle with EITHER a 1:10 or a 1:12 twist should last you for about 10K rounds with that barrel until you need a new barrel and will do anything you want.

 

[Steel+Killer]

But tikka barrels are KNOWN to be slow. This is not what he wants, especially when trying to launch heavies far.

The 1:12 twist will launch 178 gr projectiles to 1K with ease. I have done it before with a 20" 1:12 twist barrel with no problem. The factory AIAT is a 24' I believe.

 

[Terry Cross]

Hey guys,
I know some, but am not an expert in this subject.

So, a friend wants to join the LR game and fortunately for him, money isn´t his biggest problem.
He wants to have only one LR-rifle (because he is a pistol competitor and a hunter as well) and he wants it in .308 Winchester (that is set, pls no discussion about that).

This - up to - 5 grant .308 Winchester rifle should go safely (supersonic) to 1.000yds.

Which rifle would you recommend to your friend?

Ammo choice/availability will have a bigger impact on your friend's 7.62 staying safely SS to and past 1K.
Most 175MK and 178ELD style bullets at factory velocities will fly within the envelope you are asking about unless your barrel is very, very short.

Smart to source a 1-10" barrel from the get-go. It will easily handle any of the current best ammo candidates but also has enough room to potentially stabilize any new projectiles (solids, etc.) that may be longer and need twist rates a little faster than the old 1-12.

If your friend is going to be a "casual" LR shooter with most of his time being spent on other guns/disciplines, I would not put too much worry into a quick change barrel system. Typical .308s are going to go 8K rounds minimum and many over 10K before very noticeable drops in accuracy and speed. Sounds like your friend would be pushing to get 10K down the barrel in the next 20 years.

Just food for thought. Good luck with your project.

./

 

[moosemeat]

Trg22. Done.

 

[jlficken]

1 in 12 rifling works perfectly fine with bullets up to 180 grains. I know this from personal experience with a 24" barreled 308 with hits all the way to 1100 yards.

You've been told that already at least once before in this thread. You came here for the benefit of our experience, so take it and stop speculating.

AI AT factory barrels also work great with 185gr Juggernaut bullets which easily make it to 1K.

OP: If your buddy doesn't want to take the risk then I'd go with a TRG-22 as they use a 1:11 twist barrel.

 

[Rob01]

If you have access to a smith where you are have him build a custom rifle and get exactly what he wants. It will make him happiest and when spending the money he shouldn't have to get something he doesn't.

 

[BadAccountant]

For 5 grand he can get almost any .308 he wants.

 

[littlepod]

I don't believe the Tikka Tac A1/CTR are slow in 308. I have one and don't notice it being slower than my Terminus in 308. I was shooting Prime 175SMK's out to 1015 yards at sea level. The Prime load was a little slow at 2595 out of a 24" barrel, could probably find something around 2625. I was at 11.4mils for 1000 yards @ sea level.

At 1015 yards my groups opened up a bit more than the groups I was hitting at 900 though. I hear Hornady's ELDMs go out past 1000 a little better, and the 185 bergers handle the transonic better as well.

 

[bfk4lyfe]

Another vote for the AT and another testimony that the factory 1:12 barrel will work with 175s to 1k all day.

 

[hlee]

Grant is on the $50, right? So 5 Grant is like $250. So, definitely a savage, if you can pop for just a few more Grants. Other than that, I think the others in this thread have hit the high points. Buy AI. Buy custom. The world is your oyster.

 

[Jayjay1]

Where do you live and what is available? You mentioned strict laws and difficulty swapping barrels. I'm assuming you live in a country that registers the barrel.

That´s correct, but not only that.
Only a gun smith is allowed to swap barrels and after that the rifle must be officially reshot, and afterwards the then new barrel has to be official registered by the local authority.
And especially for the gunsmith you have to wait for month, a half year is not seldom, at some (the good ones) you may even wait a year or longer.

I was in the market for a new barrel lately and decided to want a Bartlein.
I would have cost me 1.200 Euros (and a looong waiting time) so I went with the locals finally.

I´m from Germany and it is a total mess.

 

[Jayjay1]

If your friend is going to be a "casual" LR shooter with most of his time being spent on other guns/disciplines, I would not put too much worry into a quick change barrel system. Typical .308s are going to go 8K rounds minimum and many over 10K before very noticeable drops in accuracy and speed. Sounds like your friend would be pushing to get 10K down the barrel in the next 20 years.

Just food for thought. Good luck with your project.

./

Just a repost because you pretty much nailed it.


P.S.:
As a hunter / when hunting in the wild, you must use solids over here, no lead bullets allowed.

 

[Jayjay1]

Grant is on the $50, right? So 5 Grant is like $250. So, definitely a savage, if you can pop for just a few more Grants. Other than that, I think the others in this thread have hit the high points. Buy AI. Buy custom. The world is your oyster.

Sorry, I somewhere have heard or read that "grant" is used as a slang word for 1.000 Dollars.

I´ve meant 5.000 Dollars.

 

[clcustom1911]

Trg22. Done.

I was just about to say that.

+1 on the Sako TRG22.

 

[hafejd30]

Just a repost because you pretty much nailed it.


P.S.:
As a hunter / when hunting in the wild, you must use solids over here, no lead bullets allowed.

The reference to the quickloc system was if you ordered it in the 24” 1:12 twist and decided you still needed the 1:10 that you could get a reputable barrel maker to spin up what you want and install yourself in a few minutes with no special tools. You could also swap between a short hunting platform or a long target platform. But after reading your posts I can see that you would not benefit from that due to the laws there.

There’s much more to the AI system than just the barrel changes....

I agree the Sako is another good option.

Probably members here who have owned AI, Sako and customs that could chime in as well. I prefer my AI to my custom. Never owned the TRG

 

[Jayjay1]

I personally would go with the TRG 22 probably, but that´s just hypothetical because it is out of my reach.

I will just send him the link to this fred here.

Thanks to you all, I highly appreciate your support on this.

 

[Jayjay1]

Probably members here who have owned AI, Sako and customs that could chime in as well. I prefer my AI to my custom. Never owned the TRG

And I´ve never held or shot one of them, well, actually I´ve shot a Black Wolf from Sako in .30-06, but it didn´t ignite between us.

I´m running a Tikka in 6.5 CM and am pretty happy with it, but also have seen rifles which are way beyond that quality which I hadn´t believed would be possible (Haenel or Strasser for example).
The barrel change problem makes me think too about a 308 barrel next time.

 

[Claluja]

Many AI AX .308 here in US come with 1:10

 

[308pirate]

The barrel change problem makes me think too about a 308 barrel next time.

So what happens to a rifle in Germany when its barrel is worn out and it won't shoot accurately any more?

 

[308pirate]

Sorry, I somewhere have heard or read that "grant" is used as a slang word for 1.000 Dollars.

I´ve meant 5.000 Dollars.

Grand = slang for $1,000

Grant = President Ulysses S. Grant, appears on the $50 bill

 

[Jayjay1]

So what happens to a rifle in Germany when its barrel is worn out and it won't shoot accurately any more?

Well, it´s on you.
A premium barrel costs as much as a good rifle.

Because the barrel is registered, you have to let it be destroyed by a gun smith and he writes you a proof about that, or you can bring it to the local authority which will do it for you for free.

For a bolt action that you own already, you can then go and buy a new barrel with the procedure described above.

For a semi-auto or a handgun, shooting with rounds, it is a different story.
There you have first to make an application (which is a story for itself, but would bust this post), then, after some weeks, you might get a permission from the authority which is valid for one year, and buy a barrel or the gun you have the permission for.
After buying it, you have to register it in no later than 2 weeks at the authorities into you "Waffenbesitzkarte" (weapon possesing card).

 

[Jayjay1]

Grand = slang for $1,000

Grant = President Ulysses S. Grant, appears on the $50 bill

Of course, grand like big, huge, large, great, tall, humongous, ....

English is funny too.

 

[jlficken]

<snip>
Probably members here who have owned AI, Sako and customs that could chime in as well. I prefer my AI to my custom. Never owned the TRG

I own one of each currently and I'd still probably go TRG-22 over AIAT in this case.

 

[hunter1959]

I want to concur on the AI/AT setup... the rifle as everyone knows is interchangeable at .308 and 6.5 cr.... not concerned at the twist value as this rifle has proven itself in the field at both calibers at long range... I bought my AT as a .308 on demo sale at EuroOptic last november, fully knowing that I wanted it in 6.5cr... added the 6.5 barrel at the initial purchase, switched it on my own... if he tried both, I would suspect (LR target or hunting) he would opt for the 6.5cr... I have the .308 in the event it would be needed for other things later.... granted, to me, the .308 would become useful if I needed to pickup .308 off the ground in bad times

 

[hunter1959]

That´s correct, but not only that.
Only a gun smith is allowed to swap barrels and after that the rifle must be officially reshot, and afterwards the then new barrel has to be official registered by the local authority.
And especially for the gunsmith you have to wait for month, a half year is not seldom, at some (the good ones) you may even wait a year or longer.

I was in the market for a new barrel lately and decided to want a Bartlein.
I would have cost me 1.200 Euros (and a looong waiting time) so I went with the locals finally.

I´m from Germany and it is a total mess.

The legal issues in your country are shameful in my opinion... given the over run immigration issues you have in your country and the history of nearly a century ago with confiscation it would seem better that they allow you self protection in whatever form you see the need...

 

[hafejd30]

I own one of each currently and I'd still probably go TRG-22 over AIAT in this case.

I feel so poor!!! That is a beautiful collection you have! If I had the money in my wallet it would be almost as empty as my Kleenex box after seeing this pic

 

[Jayjay1]

The legal issues in your country are shameful in my opinion... given the over run immigration issues you have in your country and the history of nearly a century ago with confiscation it would seem better that they allow you self protection in whatever form you see the need...

I couldn´t agree more.

But we are facing an upcoming coalition from the former conservative party (converted from Merkel into a somewhat mainstream-left-green mess) and the greens (thanks to FFF) at the next federal elections.

And the greens are as anti-gun as anti-gun can be, like all totalitarian political powers.
They want to ban civil gun possesion, like the Nazis did and the Commis in the Ex-GDR.
Like you, we are facing some serious social changes, but less through BLM than more through FFF and mass migration.

Well, my children are almost standing on their own feet.
I educated them to search their luck wherever they might find it and not being stuck just to Germany.
And I will face whatever might come.

 

[hafejd30]

Well, it´s on you.
A premium barrel costs as much as a good rifle.

Because the barrel is registered, you have to let it be destroyed by a gun smith and he writes you a proof about that, or you can bring it to the local authority which will do it for you for free.

For a bolt action that you own already, you can then go and buy a new barrel with the procedure described above.

For a semi-auto or a handgun, shooting with rounds, it is a different story.
There you have first to make an application (which is a story for itself, but would bust this post), then, after some weeks, you might get a permission from the authority which is valid for one year, and buy a barrel or the gun you have the permission for.
After buying it, you have to register it in no later than 2 weeks at the authorities into you "Waffenbesitzkarte" (weapon possesing card).

Reading stuff like this, no offense to you, makes me very glad I live where I do. Nobody even bats an eye at a barrel change in the US.

Just curious, you don’t need to tell me, but what are the going prices for a AIAT, TRG 22 or Custom rifle where your at. Does 5 grand (100 grants) even touch these rifles over there?

 

[Jayjay1]

I feel so poor!!! That is a beautiful collection you have! If I had the money in my wallet it would be almost as empty as my Kleenex box after seeing this pic

I really want to feel poor too, but can´t see the pic, wth!

 

[hafejd30]

I really want to feel poor too, but can´t see the pic, wth!

I wish you could.....

They’re just all so beautiful

 

[geek65]

Are their barrels only in 1:12"?

I have an AI AT 308 and it's 1:12

 

[IW21]

That were my thoughts with the twist, 1:12 will probably not take heavier bullets.

Barrel length 26ish, or will shorter work as well?

If your buddy really does have no issue with funds, buy the AT from Mile High. And tell them to just ship it with a 1/10 Bartlein Not that difficult