Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

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TrooperKbC

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Jan 21, 2011
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#1
Does the title say it all? ...but let's please exclude the .243WSSM from this conversation due to such a pain finding individual parts.

I'm trying to find out the best 6mm cartridge for long-range (for an AR15) shooting. I've looked at the WOA, PDK, Tomahawk, AR Turbo 40 Imp, and several others that have faded from memory after countless hours of getting nowhere. They all claim this or that with such few details it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Which cartridge gives the highest potential to hit a 6" steel plate with 105-108gr VLD 6mm bullets <span style="font-style: italic">loaded at mag-length</span>(2.30") at the longest range?

[while awaiting replies, OP is grumbling about spammed forums due to crazies single loading a semi-auto assult rifle! That's what bolt guns are for! AARrrgh!]
 
#2
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperKbC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the title say it all? ...but let's please exclude the .243WSSM from this conversation due to such a pain finding individual parts.

I'm trying to find out the best 6mm cartridge for long-range (for an AR15) shooting. I've looked at the WOA, PDK, Tomahawk, AR Turbo 40 Imp, and several others that have faded from memory after countless hours of getting nowhere. They all claim this or that with such few details it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Which cartridge gives the highest potential to hit a 6" steel plate with 105-108gr VLD 6mm bullets <span style="font-style: italic">loaded at mag-length</span>(2.30") at the longest range?

[while awaiting replies, OP is grumbling about spammed forums due to crazies single loading a semi-auto assult rifle! That's what bolt guns are for! AARrrgh!] </div></div>
My BRX will push 105s from a 22" barrel at over 3000fps, nothing else comes close.
With 105 Lapuas you can jump it a little and that is what I would use, if you want to shoot Bergers then you'll need a chamber with a .025 freebore or something close to jamb the VLDs. 95SMKs will hit 3200 with N550 powder.
 
#4
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

40 degree shoulders of the Turbo don't work that well in a AR but the regular 6mmAR feeds about like the grendel.
 
#5
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

I have a 6mm AR and it pushes a 105 at 2800 easily and accuracy is a hair better than 1/2 MOA, I have managed to hit a 7x5 inch plate at 911 yds several times in a row. brass lasts a long time, is easy to make and reliability is a non issue.
hope this helps.
 
#6
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperKbC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the title say it all? ...but let's please exclude the .243WSSM from this conversation due to such a pain finding individual parts.

I'm trying to find out the best 6mm cartridge for long-range (for an AR15) shooting. I've looked at the WOA, PDK, Tomahawk, AR Turbo 40 Imp, and several others that have faded from memory after countless hours of getting nowhere. They all claim this or that with such few details it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Which cartridge gives the highest potential to hit a 6" steel plate with 105-108gr VLD 6mm bullets <span style="font-style: italic">loaded at mag-length</span>(2.30") at the longest range?

[while awaiting replies, OP is grumbling about spammed forums due to crazies single loading a semi-auto assult rifle! That's what bolt guns are for! AARrrgh!] </div></div>
Since Hornady is now making brass for it, I'd recommend you take a look at the 6mm Hagar. Also take a look HERE.
 
#7
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40 degree shoulders of the Turbo don't work that well in an AR</div></div>

This is completely false. I've got 4500 rounds through 2 uppers with zero malfunctions. 90%-ish of those rounds fired in competitions. I know 3 other local competitive shooters using this round and none have had feed/reliability problems. Between the 4 of us, I'm sure we are past 12,000 rounds easily. When do you suppose these problems will start to develop?
 
#8
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erud</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40 degree shoulders of the Turbo don't work that well in an AR</div></div>

This is completely false. I've got 4500 rounds through 2 uppers with zero malfunctions. 90%-ish of those rounds fired in competitions. I know 3 other local competitive shooters using this round and none have had feed/reliability problems. Between the 4 of us, I'm sure we are past 12,000 rounds easily. When do you suppose these problems will start to develop? </div></div>
I have had a few call up and say their turbos do not work and want to swap to a 6BR. If you have one that works then good for you. What mags are you using?
As far as that goes just go to the Grendel forum there are all kinds of people having problems with feeding from the Grendel with a 30 degree shoulder and that size case. Personally I would rather use the straight BR since there is no fireforming involved.
 
#9
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperKbC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the title say it all? ...but let's please exclude the .243WSSM from this conversation due to such a pain finding individual parts. </div></div>

Really? You want to discredit the best (fastest and flattest) of the bunch, just because you can't buy parts and build it yourself? (because you can, it's just expensive)
There are two custom builders with 1/2 MOA guarantees. I see no down side here?

I sent 105 Amax at 3200+ with a 1:9 and after 1500rnds, I'm getting a new 1:8 to try Bergers as well.
 
#10
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

Good for me and the 3 other guys I know personally(6 total uppers between the 4 of us) and shoot matches with almost every weekend. Not too interested in what they're saying in the Grendel forum as my real-life experience with the cartridge is enough evidence for me.

I use C-Products mags. Have used the same 8 10-rounders since I got the first upper and all 8 of them get used for rapid fire stages in every match I shoot. Also have 5 or 6 20-round mags that function perfectly, though they don't see much use. Do you have any actual experience with this round, or just what "guys" tell you?
 
#11
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are two custom builders with 1/2 MOA guarantees. I see no down side here?

I sent 105 Amax at 3200+ with a 1:9 and after 1500rnds, I'm getting a new 1:8 to try Bergers as well. </div></div>

Can I ask who the two custom builders of 6mm WSSM AR-15s are? Was thinking of an AR-10 in 6mm, but that is expensive and heavy...
 
#12
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good for me and the 3 other guys I know personally(6 total uppers between the 4 of us) and shoot matches with almost every weekend. Not too interested in what they're saying in the Grendel forum as my real-life experience with the cartridge is enough evidence for me.

I use C-Products mags. Have used the same 8 10-rounders since I got the first upper and all 8 of them get used for rapid fire stages in every match I shoot. Also have 5 or 6 20-round mags that function perfectly, though they don't see much use. Do you have any actual experience with this round, or just what "guys" tell you?

</div></div>
Never had much use for the turbo since I have a 6 and 6.5BRX and a 6BR. Had a 25 and 243 wssm and didn't like those. Still have a 6.5-08AI bolt rig and don't think the 40 degree is worth the fireforming there either. The 223Ai doesn't work that well in ARs an what little bit of velocity gained was not worth fireforming. After that one with the other wildcats I make I try to keep the shoulder angle at 30 degrees so they feed better.

Say you have 5 or 6 20 round Grendel mags that function perfectly? Weird they have never made a 20 round Grendel mag. The Grendel guys sure don't like the 17 round Grendel mags, they say those are the worst of the bunch.
We'll see how the 6mmAR works in 20" varmint barrels in a month when Compass Lake finishes the barrels.
He's going to do 50 more in 6BR right after using the same blanks so it should be a good comparison between the 6mmAR and 6mmBR.
 
#13
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

the Hagar will not mag length load the 105's. You can cut the front out of the mag and do it, but why? Creedmoore and hornady are riding Carl's success, and its a good HP Match rifle round, maybe, but not a good round for a field gun.I would bet Carl could have won with a 5.56. HE won the match not the round. I have read that you cannot even get the 95's to mag length in the Hagar.
I asked this same question and after months I went with a 240 Tomahawk. Just easier and it will mag load the 105's uses SPC brass and is a pretty easy swap over. Having the barrel cut now.
 
#14
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good for me and the 3 other guys I know personally(6 total uppers between the 4 of us) and shoot matches with almost every weekend. Not too interested in what they're saying in the Grendel forum as my real-life experience with the cartridge is enough evidence for me.

I use C-Products mags. Have used the same 8 10-rounders since I got the first upper and all 8 of them get used for rapid fire stages in every match I shoot. Also have 5 or 6 20-round mags that function perfectly, though they don't see much use. Do you have any actual experience with this round, or just what "guys" tell you?

</div></div>
Never had much use for the turbo since I have a 6 and 6.5BRX and a 6BR. Had a 25 and 243 wssm and didn't like those. Still have a 6.5-08AI bolt rig and don't think the 40 degree is worth the fireforming there either. The 223Ai doesn't work that well in ARs an what little bit of velocity gained was not worth fireforming. After that one with the other wildcats I make I try to keep the shoulder angle at 30 degrees so they feed better.

Say you have 5 or 6 20 round Grendel mags that function perfectly? Weird they have never made a 20 round Grendel mag. The Grendel guys sure don't like the 17 round Grendel mags, they say those are the worst of the bunch.
We'll see how the 6mmAR works in 20" varmint barrels in a month when Compass Lake finishes the barrels.
He's going to do 50 more in 6BR right after using the same blanks so it should be a good comparison between the 6mmAR and 6mmBR. </div></div>

Ok, you got me on the 20 round mag thing. You're right, I guess they are 17 rounders. The mags are the same dimensionally as a .223 20-rounder so I just refer to them as 20-rounders. I do think you are missing the important point though, they all feed reliably. Again, I am speaking from actual experiences while you are telling me things you've read on the internet.

Just for reference, here are the mags I have and use with the turbo 40, I have had no feed problems with any. The 10-rounders are in constant use, the others only see occasional use:

2v8gxvo.jpg


Look, I'm not knocking you or your cartridges, I'm sure they are great. It's just that I've had such outstanding results with the Turbo 40 that I don't like people trashing it based solely on internet hearsay. Since you are the manufacturer of competing cartridges/platforms, it seems a little weak for you to be bad-mouthing a competitor's product when you have not actually used the product.

For what it's worth, I had an AR in 6BR(not one of yours) before I got the Turbo 40 and it was the bane of my existence. I fought with it for close to 2 years and it made at least 4 trips back to the builder/designer for work and it still never worked right or shot worth a darn with any combination of loads. I spoke to a guy who was involved in the initial development of this particular platform and he told me that it would never do what I wanted it to. I ended up selling it at a large loss to a guy who knew the builder that was willing to take up any future problems with him directly - I was happy to be rid of it.
 
#15
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperKbC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the title say it all? ...but let's please exclude the .243WSSM from this conversation due to such a pain finding individual parts. </div></div>

Really? You want to discredit the best (fastest and flattest) of the bunch, just because you can't buy parts and build it yourself? (because you can, it's just expensive)
There are two custom builders with 1/2 MOA guarantees. I see no down side here?

I sent 105 Amax at 3200+ with a 1:9 and after 1500rnds, I'm getting a new 1:8 to try Bergers as well.</div></div>

The reason I've discredited the WSSM is because I want to use the bolt carrier and stainless barrel blank I already have. It would be nice to also use the barrel extension and 6.8 bolt I have too, but those weren't as expensive and can be used for a different build.

Wouldn't I have to buy a bolt, barrel extension, and possibly even bolt carrier [currently] produced by only one or 2 companies that refuse to sell individual parts to make a BRX or WSSM? I just want to get the few other necessary parts (bolt & barrel extension if needed) to finish the build without buying an entire upper.

I think the 6mmBR and BRX would have the same problem as the 243WSSM.
 
#16
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

ERUD,
I've personally had a 6.5CSS since 05, actually 2 -6.5CSSs, a 6.5 Banshee, my 264 and I've built almost 50 264LBCs(the chamber is very close to a LBC anyway). 2 different 6mms based on the Grendel case all with 30 degree shoulders. I have a bunch of the 10 round Grendel mags and I have used some PRI and Barrett 6.8 mags too. I have some experience with those cartridges and mags in the AR platform and know about that clunky sound when they are feeding. Some feed ok some not. I've seen the dents in the shoulders.
Nothing is perfect every single time. Look at it from my view point for a minute. If I sell 100 and I get 1 call back due to feeding issues like I do with the 556s and 6.8s I'm a happy builder. If I get a 20-30% call back ratio due to feeding issues with a 30 degree shoulder and Grendel mags, that burns a lot of profit and tics off a lot of customers so all I can do is suggest the calibers that will be less trouble. I can't control the mags customers buy all I can do is try to make the upper right and hope the mags work. I'm trying to get Barrett to make some 5 or 10 round 6.8 mags now, their 30 round mags feed better than the Grendel mags do but I can't get many in them.
I've been building wildcats since 83 or 84 when the 8mmRem Mag came out, I use to have time to fireform and all of that stuff but now I just don't think it's worth it for me and most customers don't want to fireform either. That is the whole reason I started working on stuffing a BR in a AR15. Bad part is we're so busy I don't have time to machine the extensions again.
I've done the WSSM thing in .243, 25, 6.5 and 338 and messed with the 30 RAR necked down too, I know how much trouble it is and how much money I wasted. I'm just not going to suggest to most that they try it. You have your opinion and thats mine.
 
#17
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperKbC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperKbC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the title say it all? ...but let's please exclude the .243WSSM from this conversation due to such a pain finding individual parts. </div></div>

Really? You want to discredit the best (fastest and flattest) of the bunch, just because you can't buy parts and build it yourself? (because you can, it's just expensive)
There are two custom builders with 1/2 MOA guarantees. I see no down side here?

I sent 105 Amax at 3200+ with a 1:9 and after 1500rnds, I'm getting a new 1:8 to try Bergers as well.</div></div>

The reason I've discredited the WSSM is because I want to use the bolt carrier and stainless barrel blank I already have. It would be nice to also use the barrel extension and 6.8 bolt I have too, but those weren't as expensive and can be used for a different build.

Wouldn't I have to buy a bolt, barrel extension, and possibly even bolt carrier [currently] produced by only one or 2 companies that refuse to sell individual parts to make a BRX or WSSM? I just want to get the few other necessary parts (bolt & barrel extension if needed) to finish the build without buying an entire upper.

I think the 6mmBR and BRX would have the same problem as the 243WSSM. </div></div>
Sorry but the cats currently built on a 6.8 case are too long to run the 105s. I have a 6x41 that is short enough to run 105s but I'm not building it and it's not as fast as the 6mmAR
The 6mmAR takes only a different bolt and the custom barrel and would be the easiest to build and use Grendel bushing dies, IMO your best choice, it will push 105s to around 2800 from a 22" barrel.
The way I have been doing the 6BR it takes a bolt and extension, everything else ia a normal AR15 part, same carrier, same receiver. We sold 100 sets last year but now we're so busy I haven't had time to machine more extensions in the last 6 months.
 
#18
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperKbC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperKbC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the title say it all? ...but let's please exclude the .243WSSM from this conversation due to such a pain finding individual parts. </div></div>

Really? You want to discredit the best (fastest and flattest) of the bunch, just because you can't buy parts and build it yourself? (because you can, it's just expensive)
There are two custom builders with 1/2 MOA guarantees. I see no down side here?

I sent 105 Amax at 3200+ with a 1:9 and after 1500rnds, I'm getting a new 1:8 to try Bergers as well.</div></div>

The reason I've discredited the WSSM is because I want to use the bolt carrier and stainless barrel blank I already have. It would be nice to also use the barrel extension and 6.8 bolt I have too, but those weren't as expensive and can be used for a different build.

Wouldn't I have to buy a bolt, barrel extension, and possibly even bolt carrier [currently] produced by only one or 2 companies that refuse to sell individual parts to make a BRX or WSSM? I just want to get the few other necessary parts (bolt & barrel extension if needed) to finish the build without buying an entire upper.

I think the 6mmBR and BRX would have the same problem as the 243WSSM. </div></div>
Sorry but the cats currently built on a 6.8 case are too long to run the 105s. I have a 6x41 that is short enough to run 105s but I'm not building it and it's not as fast as the 6mmAR
The 6mmAR takes only a different bolt and the custom barrel and would be the easiest to build and use Grendel bushing dies, IMO your best choice, it will push 105s to around 2800 from a 22" barrel.
The way I have been doing the 6BR it takes a bolt and extension, everything else ia a normal AR15 part, same carrier, same receiver. We sold 100 sets last year but now we're so busy I haven't had time to machine more extensions in the last 6 months. </div></div>

So currently in the production pipeline you have 6mmBR and 6mmAR? The 6mmAR is the 6.5 LBC necked down to 6mm right? Can you give a little plues and minuses comparison b/t the two?
 
#19
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ShrockWorks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So currently in the production pipeline you have 6mmBR and 6mmAR? The 6mmAR is the 6.5 LBC necked down to 6mm right? Can you give a little plues and minuses comparison b/t the two? </div></div>

The BR is apx 200fps faster than the 6mmAR, 10 BR rounds fit in a 15round 6.8 mag. 6BR dies are avail anywhere as is brass.
With the 6mmAR/243LBC you can use Grendel mags, Grendel bushing dies and Grendel/264 brass.
Either would be great for Varmints or long range target and with the right bullets deer and hogs.
 
#21
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40 degree shoulders of the Turbo don't work that well in a AR but the regular 6mmAR feeds about like the grendel. </div></div>

I beg to differ. I have a 6mm AR Turbo 40 and it feeds every bit as well as my standard .223. I have over 400 rnds through it with no feed issues.
 
#22
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

I have a straight 6mmAR with a 19" Rock medium weight barrel that is my primary whitetail gun. Shoot a 105 amax @ 2690 even with the short barrel.
Also have a 20" Hart heavy barrel that my 12 year old shoots. He holds under 1 minute @ 600 yards on a regular basis. If I could turn back the clock, I would have went 22" on the heavy barrel just for the extra speed, not that it has been an issue.
Both guns are very accurate.

The only thing I don't like about it is chasing the expensive Grendel brass!
smile.gif


Never, ever a malfuctions of any kind! Robert builds good stuff.

Hope this helps,
Trilogymac
 
#24
Re: Best 6mm AR15 Cartridge for Mag-Length 105gr VLD

Are any of you guys shooting the new Berger 105gr Hybrid out of your 6mmAR's??? Its the longest of the 105's by a wide margin, so I was wondering what kind of MV that bugger can get.
 
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