I'm looking to improve grouping at 100 yards and beyond on my CZ 457 Varmint. I have upgraded the Boyd's At-One stock with an XLR Element chassis. I have also lightened the trigger to 1.5 lb with a Yo Dave spring. I'm looking for replacement barrel suggestions ( brand , length and profile) to get my groups tighter to bolster my confidence and get more competitive in the .22 Precision matches.
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Best aftermarket barrel for CZ 457
- Thread starter tidalbass
- Start date
I’ve had a few and from what I’ve seen.
Bartlein is the most consistent (if you don’t mind the weight or wait).
Lilja and Lothar Walther seem to be close behind it.
haven’t seen hardly any reports on the CF barrels by proof (~600.00) I think kills the sells for some.
I’ve just found a new guy using green mountain blanks and chambering them but he’s going to rig me a 17hm2 barrel but I don’t know how his 22lr barrels are
Bartlein is the most consistent (if you don’t mind the weight or wait).
Lilja and Lothar Walther seem to be close behind it.
haven’t seen hardly any reports on the CF barrels by proof (~600.00) I think kills the sells for some.
I’ve just found a new guy using green mountain blanks and chambering them but he’s going to rig me a 17hm2 barrel but I don’t know how his 22lr barrels are
Bartlein and Mullerworks would be top shelf. Lots of other good barrels out there. The ammo is usually to blame for poor accuracy in the 22lr.
I've been very pleased with a couple of Shilen select match ratchet rifled bbls that I did for my 457 American & 457 VPT. Not aware of anyone doing drop-ins with Shilen blanks, and besides, when I did mine, I glued the completed bbl in instead of cutting those gawd-awful ugly grub screw seats. It defeats the quick-change bbl design, but I have no intention of changing these bbls out for anything else anyway. I used an EPS reamer for chambers, and have very smooth feeding with it. Would like to try a Nevius reamer on a bbl for the 457s, just to see if it will work in a repeater, but so far, the only bbl I've done with my Nevius reamer is a Shilen R5 contour ratchet for a V-22S - and it's shooting very well with a good lot of Lapua Center-X.
I had awesome luck with the Lilja I had (when I still had a 457). Didn't try anything else but factory (some of which were also very good). The Lilja came with barrel shims for adjusting headspace. I played with them until they would just barely engrave the bullet but would still extract. Was able to get it to where I was consistently shooting moa and sub moa 5 shot groups at 100 when I wasn't fighting with.
My experience is relevant only if you're going the prefit route instead of fitted glue-ins:
I have a Bartlein Bentz chambered prefit and a CZ MTR barrel I picked up for $200ish shipped. The chamber on the MTR is definitely tighter.
In terms of best groups, they are very close, but average groups ( at 100 yrds, I don't see the point in testing barrels, ammo at less) the MTR wins in addition to being more forgiving across ammo brands anf models.( also this is on a 455).
I have a Bartlein Bentz chambered prefit and a CZ MTR barrel I picked up for $200ish shipped. The chamber on the MTR is definitely tighter.
In terms of best groups, they are very close, but average groups ( at 100 yrds, I don't see the point in testing barrels, ammo at less) the MTR wins in addition to being more forgiving across ammo brands anf models.( also this is on a 455).
I would suggest looking a the IBI barrel offering. They come with the Calfee 4 chamber. I like mine.
I bought a benchmark for my MTR..It shoots good but if I was to do it over, I would get a Bartlein from 419..I have seen a lot of them that shoot really really well.
I was interested in trying one of the Bartlein drop-ins until I found out they used a Bentz reamer to chamber them. Seems kind of a waste to use a relatively loose reamer in a premium grade custom barrel? I'm sure it was a decision made to insure good, smooth feeding, and I doubted that Bartlein would use a reamer that decreased the accuracy potential of their barrels, but still... That's when I decided to go with Shilen blanks that I'd chambered with the EPS reamer, which is noticeably tighter than the Bentz. However, since I've never shot a CZ with one of these Bentz-chambered Bartleins, I don't have any experience to back up my opinion.
That same thinking is why did not, I couldn't image spending that much for that chamber..The few I have seen now in action, have done well. The one I saw this weekend, went 8/10 at 354 yards on a 6''x8''. I also seen one complete the coke can challenge easily, I did so with my benchmark too though. Not saying you should go that way but for me, I wished I would have. So much so I might sell the Benchmark to get the 419 or I might just turn it into a bench gun since I have a Vudoo on the way.
I recently built myself a V-22S, using a Shilen R5 bbl blank that I finished at just under 25". I bought a Pro-X tuner for this rifle, and have shot it with & w/o the tuner to get an idea of how much the tuner helps accuracy - no question that the tuner is very beneficial to accuracy. You might try a tuner (if match rules allow it) on your Benchmark...
My son has been competing with a 457 pro Varmint that we dropped into a MPA chassis for the last year. We wanted to add some weight up front with a heavier after market barrel. The factory CZ barrel shot amazing but it was really picky about ammo. It only seemed to shoot SK/Lapua ammo well. The accuracy kind of fell apart past 100 yards as well. Originally I had planned to buy a Lillja but we won a certificate for a pretty good discount on a Lothar Walther barrel. My plan was to bolt on the LW and see how it shot. If it didn’t shoot well I was going to take it to my smith and have it cut down, re chambered and custom fit. After bolting it on and shooting it we decided it shot so well we didn’t want to mess with it. So far it has shot everything we have put in it well. Personally I’m not a big fan of drop in barrels but it seems like we got a winner with this one so far.
I ordered a 20.5" barrel from Lothar Walther. I heard a lot of good and some bad about all that I was considering. I let availability drive the bus because I didn't wish to wait several months. I will post about results when I get the barrel installed and some groups shot. Time shall tell if I should have waited! Thanks for all the input.
How much ammo testing did you do before you changed the barrel?
What were the results?
I used Lapua Centerx, Eley Force, Eley Contact, Federal Match, CCI. At 50 yards Eley force and the Lapua were my best performers with groups ranging between .5" to just over an inch. Not too bad, but not consistantly good either. I back off to 100 yards and everything opens way up. Groups are approximately 3 inches or bigger. It would seem to me that if i can average groups just under an inch at 50 yards, the groups should be around two inches at 100 yards. You do know that it's easier to spend money upgrading a rifle than it is to look in the mirror and accept blame for poor performance!! I believe this rifle "should" group better at 50 yards, and most definately at and beyond 100 yards. I'm going to try this barrel when it comes in. It is not very expensive ( $300) and has very good reviews and word of mouth. I will most definately post my results after the fact! I am anxious to see how much is the gun, and how much is ME!
About how much does it cost to have a gunsmith install and fit a barrel in a 457?
Not including the cost of the barrel.
Which barrel and chamber would you pick As far as bang for your buck?
I’m new to this and am reading to catch up (Rimfire Revolution and Art of Rimfire Accuracy.
Not including the cost of the barrel.
Which barrel and chamber would you pick As far as bang for your buck?
I’m new to this and am reading to catch up (Rimfire Revolution and Art of Rimfire Accuracy.
If I was to do it again....
Shilen Match Select 21" 0.90" diameter with a cone breach
EPS chamber
Index the barrel to position for optimum results
Glue into the receiver
Shilen Match Select 21" 0.90" diameter with a cone breach
EPS chamber
Index the barrel to position for optimum results
Glue into the receiver
If you look at my last post on this thread, it's been a year. I can tell you in my opinion, I would not put a new barrel on a CZ457. If I wanted better, I would sell the CZ and if you love a CZ just move up to the LRP or I would just get a Bergara..You are new, and you are probably going to want to try different things the more you learn and it is HARD to get your money back on a custom barrel..Sell the 457 and take that money and add it to what you have saved for the new barrel and I would bet you can get into a Berg or a Higher end CZ..I sold all my stuff, the barrel at a big lose, and got a Vudoo and I am happy as I can be..My buddies Berg shoots damn near as good, if not better some days and that gets you into the 700 footprint. .Nothing wrong with the 457's, good deals for what you pay, but in my opinion, you throw money away when you start trying to add custom barrels and things.
tidalbass - The 24" factory bbl that came on my CZ457 VPT had some issues new out of the box. I was trying to get it clean before ever shooting it, and just kept getting black patches out of it. Finally got my Hawkeye borescope out and found an area of the bore about 1.5" ahead of the chamber that was covered with what looked like spatters of leading. Unless that was a loose spot in the bore that was allowing gas to leak by the bullet base and melt the skirt, I couldn't understand how that much leading had accumulated if the factory only shot a 5-shot group before shipping the completed rifle. I went in with a bronze bore brush & Shooters Choice, and after 10 back & forth passes, the leading was nearly gone, so I went back in with the brush for another couple of passes, which got rid of all of it. Odd thing was, after putting 50rds of SK Std+ through the bbl, the leading never reappeared, so my theory about a loose spot in the bore kind of went out the window. I kept shooting it with really good lots of SK Std+ and Rifle Match, and after about 500rds, I felt the 50yd accuracy had improved to the point where I was fairly satisfied with it. But when I backed off to 100 & 200yds, accuracy fell apart, to the point where I couldn't keep 10rds on an 8" steel plate at 200. So I sat this bbl aside and replaced it with a glue-in Shilen with EPS chamber, and never looked back.
This was the 3rd 457 I'd bought for my own use, the 1st being an American with a pretty nice stock. But that American didn't shoot worth a hoot out of the box, and never got any better, even after wasting over 1000rds of decent ammo to give it a chance to break-in. This was the 1st rifle I tried the glue-in method on, with a Shilen #5 contour blank that I cut the 1.20" dia shank off of and then turned the tenon on. It wound up weighing about 1/2lb more than the OEM bbl when finished at 23", and shoots as good as I'd hoped for. So in my limited experience with three 457s, the only bbl that shoots good enough to leave alone was the 20.5" Varmint MTR - and while it's pretty decent at 50yds, it's no great shakes at 100 or 200. Makes me wish it was possible to purchase just the 457 actions with the factory trigger, which I'm satisfied with. It's not comparable to the Flavio Fare or Jewell triggers I have on my Vudoo rifles, but it's got to be one of the best factory triggers out there.
This was the 3rd 457 I'd bought for my own use, the 1st being an American with a pretty nice stock. But that American didn't shoot worth a hoot out of the box, and never got any better, even after wasting over 1000rds of decent ammo to give it a chance to break-in. This was the 1st rifle I tried the glue-in method on, with a Shilen #5 contour blank that I cut the 1.20" dia shank off of and then turned the tenon on. It wound up weighing about 1/2lb more than the OEM bbl when finished at 23", and shoots as good as I'd hoped for. So in my limited experience with three 457s, the only bbl that shoots good enough to leave alone was the 20.5" Varmint MTR - and while it's pretty decent at 50yds, it's no great shakes at 100 or 200. Makes me wish it was possible to purchase just the 457 actions with the factory trigger, which I'm satisfied with. It's not comparable to the Flavio Fare or Jewell triggers I have on my Vudoo rifles, but it's got to be one of the best factory triggers out there.
Thanks is the EPS a chamber matched to Eley? Or does EPS stand for something different when it comes to chambers?
Thank you for such a detailed reply. When you guys are talking about “glue in” that’s using a drop in barrel and actually using glue to seal it in, correct? If so, what did you use for glue?
Same glue used when sleeving the cylinder in an engine block
Loctite 640 for non-threaded slip fit applications.
Extremely strong bond. Almost permanent.
I prefer the EPS chamber, originally intended as an Eley fit,
but has shown to work well with SK/Lapua and RWS in my Lilja and Shilen bolt action 22lr.
Loctite 640 for non-threaded slip fit applications.
Extremely strong bond. Almost permanent.
I prefer the EPS chamber, originally intended as an Eley fit,
but has shown to work well with SK/Lapua and RWS in my Lilja and Shilen bolt action 22lr.
I used Loctite 609; not familiar with 640. After learning that Walther uses something similar to glue the bbls into the actions on some of their smallbore match rifles, I decided it made a lot more sense to me to forget about cutting the big ugly grub screw seats in a replacement bbl and just glue the bbl in after setting headspace & cutting the extractor slots.
justin,
I had no way to secure the bbl in the 457 action to test fire while indexing. I didn't cut the grub screw divots in the Shilen's tenon; the way they thin the tenon right over the chamber area, and the stress the grub screws create when tightened were one of the big reasons I choose to go the glue in route.
I had no way to secure the bbl in the 457 action to test fire while indexing. I didn't cut the grub screw divots in the Shilen's tenon; the way they thin the tenon right over the chamber area, and the stress the grub screws create when tightened were one of the big reasons I choose to go the glue in route.
So, when you glue it, you don’t need the screws, correct? I’m going to see if I can find a post about this. Thanks for all the informatio.
Hey KOD,
I love the looks of the IBI profile. I have always like barrels that have the swell at the muzzle. Do you know if it serves a purpose?
Is it a drop in type utilizing the QD feature found on the 457.
I love the looks of the IBI profile. I have always like barrels that have the swell at the muzzle. Do you know if it serves a purpose?
Is it a drop in type utilizing the QD feature found on the 457.
Is this the one?
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justin, I always admired Mike Ross' theory on indexing 22RF bbls to find the orientation where one would shoot the best, from the time I read about it on German Salazar's "Florida Smallbore Shooting" site on Delphi. To the point that when I sent him one of my CMP M52D actions to have him re-barrel it with a Broughton sporter weight bbl, I asked him to index it. I believe he finished the bbl, headspacing it to the action, then put the bbl'd action in a fixture that allowed him to testfire, then rotate it 90*, and repeat until he'd shot groups with it at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, and 9:00. It's always been a good shooter, and I attributed that to his taking the time to find the orientation that barrel preferred. If it shot best at something other than where he'd finished it, he would've had to have done the machine work to put that 'preferred' point at 12:00.
But how to accomplish this within the constraints of CZ's grub screw system? I first considered threading the action's bbl socket and the bbl tenon, following this method to accomplish indexing. Or I could've glued it in, then proceeded to build a rotating fixture to allow shooting it from the four 90* points, then IF I found that it did indeed shoot better at one of the orientation points, I'd have had to mark the bbl to indicate where the 12:00 point should be, then heat the action & bbl until the Loctite softened enough to remove the bbl, cut the extraction slots, and glued it back in.
In the end, I decided to not pursue indexting the bbl, and glued the bugger in after cutting the extractor slots. Just didn't have the patience to screw with it. And who's to say that any measurable improvement would've resulted from the testing while looking for the ideal index point, especially if I'd have come up with an indexing holding fixture that resulted in a reduction in accuracy?
The increase in accuracy the Shilen bbl produced over the very poor OEM bbl was very satisfying, so I'll wait for someone with more patience to accomplish the indexing of one of these bbls in a 457 action, and go from there.
But how to accomplish this within the constraints of CZ's grub screw system? I first considered threading the action's bbl socket and the bbl tenon, following this method to accomplish indexing. Or I could've glued it in, then proceeded to build a rotating fixture to allow shooting it from the four 90* points, then IF I found that it did indeed shoot better at one of the orientation points, I'd have had to mark the bbl to indicate where the 12:00 point should be, then heat the action & bbl until the Loctite softened enough to remove the bbl, cut the extraction slots, and glued it back in.
In the end, I decided to not pursue indexting the bbl, and glued the bugger in after cutting the extractor slots. Just didn't have the patience to screw with it. And who's to say that any measurable improvement would've resulted from the testing while looking for the ideal index point, especially if I'd have come up with an indexing holding fixture that resulted in a reduction in accuracy?
The increase in accuracy the Shilen bbl produced over the very poor OEM bbl was very satisfying, so I'll wait for someone with more patience to accomplish the indexing of one of these bbls in a 457 action, and go from there.
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Is there any gunsmiths that you guys would recommend for this? It doesn’t say anything about the chamber so I’m assuming that it needs to be cut and that’s beyond my skills and tools.
Flat...I picked up a Shilen 455 cone breach drop in during a close out sale.
Primary motivation being to find out if indexing actually did anything.
Let me find the link to the post of procedure and results...
Found it...long thread...many comments from a gunsmith educating me
www.rimfirecentral.com
Primary motivation being to find out if indexing actually did anything.
Let me find the link to the post of procedure and results...
Found it...long thread...many comments from a gunsmith educating me
Another 455 Option
It's 18-1/4 inches long 17 inches from the shoulder to the muzzle 0.900 inches in diameter 90° crown Has a cone breach Weighs 46 ounces Made for Killoughs from a Shilen 4 groove stainless barrel I know little about indexing a barrel, this ought to be a good way to learn
www.rimfirecentral.com
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Flat...I picked up a Shilen 455 cone breach drop in during a close out sale.
Primary motivation being to find out if indexing actually did anything.
Let me find the link to the post of procedure and results...
Found it...long thread...many comments from a gunsmith educating me
Another 455 Option
It's 18-1/4 inches long 17 inches from the shoulder to the muzzle 0.900 inches in diameter 90° crown Has a cone breach Weighs 46 ounces Made for Killoughs from a Shilen 4 groove stainless barrel I know little about indexing a barrel, this ought to be a good way to learn
The first person to index a 22 barrel was Bill Myers. There is no benefit to accuracy from indexing barrels. Guys the work has already been done this isn't a new theory and has been tried many many times. You can't reinvent the wheel and it seems like a lot of you are trying to do exactly that. Funny reading these threads
Turbo...does indexing work?
Sometimes, yes.
Why?
Depends on how straight the bore is.
If the bore is straight, indexing has no effect.
But if the bore is curved, there appears to be a barrel position
that decreases trajectory dispersion. I'm still not sure if it's due to harmonics
or how the curve of the bore affects the bullet surface.
Extremely difficult to bore a long, straight hole.
I see indexing as a technique for mollifying the slight curvature.
Maybe. I think.
Sometimes, yes.
Why?
Depends on how straight the bore is.
If the bore is straight, indexing has no effect.
But if the bore is curved, there appears to be a barrel position
that decreases trajectory dispersion. I'm still not sure if it's due to harmonics
or how the curve of the bore affects the bullet surface.
Extremely difficult to bore a long, straight hole.
I see indexing as a technique for mollifying the slight curvature.
Maybe. I think.
I have been using a Lilja barrel this past year and have found it way more accurate than I am. It likes CenterX and OSP at 50 and 100 with groups mostly in the .38 range on a windless day. At 200 it likes R50 and will keep 2 MOA if I do my job. At 300 a 12x24 plate is not safe. My home range does not go beyond 300 nor do I have any interest in wasting ammunition. With R50 I have an occasional failure to extract...other than that Mrs. Lincoln the play was fine.
CZ Manners MTR, Lilja barrel, A419 30MOA rail, Atlas bipod on ARCA rail, Athlon ARES ETR UHD 4.5 X 30 X 65 Aprs1 FFP, Talley low rings, Timney trigger at 7oz.
CZ Manners MTR, Lilja barrel, A419 30MOA rail, Atlas bipod on ARCA rail, Athlon ARES ETR UHD 4.5 X 30 X 65 Aprs1 FFP, Talley low rings, Timney trigger at 7oz.
Turbo...does indexing work?
Sometimes, yes.
Why?
Depends on how straight the bore is.
If the bore is straight, indexing has no effect.
But if the bore is curved, there appears to be a barrel position
that decreases trajectory dispersion. I'm still not sure if it's due to harmonics
or how the curve of the bore affects the bullet surface.
Extremely difficult to bore a long, straight hole.
I see indexing as a technique for mollifying the slight curvature.
Maybe. I think.
Indexing would never ever make accuracy better. It would just change location of the group not make it better. Nothing and i mean nothing can make a bad barrel better.
Does indexing work?
Some gunsmiths say yes.
Others say it's not that useful.
Others have tested and decided it helps reduce trajectory dispersion.
I have spent a few hours attempting indexing with the Shilen cone breach.
Interpret my results as you will. Did group size and location change as the barrel was rotated?
Looks like it to me. Were the results repeatable at 50 and 100 yards? It was for me.
Will it work for every barrel? Can't say. Only ever tried it with the Shilen.
Some gunsmiths say yes.
Others say it's not that useful.
Others have tested and decided it helps reduce trajectory dispersion.
Harvey's Hot Rod Anschütz BR-50
6mmBR.com is the best guide for 6mm BR Benchrest precision shooting, complete with 6BR FAQ, Reloading Data, Shooter Message Boards, Reader Polls, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips. Equipment reviews (.243 bullets, 30BR cartridge, 6mm Norma...
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I have spent a few hours attempting indexing with the Shilen cone breach.
Interpret my results as you will. Did group size and location change as the barrel was rotated?
Looks like it to me. Were the results repeatable at 50 and 100 yards? It was for me.
Will it work for every barrel? Can't say. Only ever tried it with the Shilen.
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Who are these gunsmith you speak of? At the top level of rfbr there is no barrel indexing. Like I said it was done years ago with little to no differences in accuracy. I would rather trust the work of gunsmith who have actually built winning guns . There is information out there on barrel indexing go read it.
Can do turbo....as you said, plenty of information available to read....
bulletin.accurateshooter.com
bulletin.accurateshooter.com
Bet You Ain’t Seen This Before — Barrel-Indexing Rimfire Action « Daily Bulletin
The late Bill Myers was recognized as one of greatest rimfire gunsmiths who ever lived. Myers crafted many match-winning, record-setting rimfire benchrest rigs.
Sunday GunDay: Suhl-Action .22 LR Rimfire with Indexed Barrel « Daily Bulletin
This article was originally written by noted rimfire gunsmith Bill Myers. Sadly, Bill passed away in May 2010, but his legacy lives on. He pioneered many advancements in rimfire gunsmithing and Myers-built guns still win matches in benchrest competition.
Friedrich's Record-Setting Rimfires
6mmBR.com is the best guide for 6mm BR Benchrest precision shooting, complete with 6BR FAQ, Reloading Data, Shooter Message Boards, Reader Polls, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips. Equipment reviews (.243 bullets, 30BR cartridge, 6mm Norma...
www.6mmbr.com
Can do turbo....as you said, plenty of information available to read....
Bet You Ain’t Seen This Before — Barrel-Indexing Rimfire Action « Daily Bulletin
The late Bill Myers was recognized as one of greatest rimfire gunsmiths who ever lived. Myers crafted many match-winning, record-setting rimfire benchrest rigs.
Sunday GunDay: Suhl-Action .22 LR Rimfire with Indexed Barrel « Daily Bulletin
This article was originally written by noted rimfire gunsmith Bill Myers. Sadly, Bill passed away in May 2010, but his legacy lives on. He pioneered many advancements in rimfire gunsmithing and Myers-built guns still win matches in benchrest competition.
Friedrich's Record-Setting Rimfires
6mmBR.com is the best guide for 6mm BR Benchrest precision shooting, complete with 6BR FAQ, Reloading Data, Shooter Message Boards, Reader Polls, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips. Equipment reviews (.243 bullets, 30BR cartridge, 6mm Norma...www.6mmbr.com
Lmao I mentioned Bill Myers, that was well over 10 yrs ago
. He's no longer with us and the idea of indexing died with him. Like I said just a amateur no improvement to accuracy. How many br matches and nationals have you attended? Do you know top level gunsmiths and shooters? Ask any of the top gunsmiths if they index barrels? I can tell you the answer already. The barrels we have today are far better then they were 10 to 15 yrs ago hints why no one indexes. Lmao I'm a br shooter and have been to top level matches and know what and how these guns are built.
And tonight I drove by a Holiday Inn…..
If someone wants to index a barrel - be it a gunsmith or shooter - and they believe it works then I say go for it. No blood no foul.
Y'er allowed to laugh turbo.
I'm still reading and the topic still produces some serious discussions.
Working my way through the topic posts in the Benchrest forums.
Arguments regarding bore curvature orientation, honing/cutting to remove minor issues.
How barrel harmonics are affected by the ever so slight variations in bore alignment.
Indexing looks to have little effect in the extreme high end barrels where the machining
has become so precise that the bore is so close to perfectly straight as to be beyond worrying about.
That said, lesser barrels with even small amounts of bore curvature do show improvement when indexed.
Interesting topic, still reading.
I'm still reading and the topic still produces some serious discussions.
Working my way through the topic posts in the Benchrest forums.
Arguments regarding bore curvature orientation, honing/cutting to remove minor issues.
How barrel harmonics are affected by the ever so slight variations in bore alignment.
Indexing looks to have little effect in the extreme high end barrels where the machining
has become so precise that the bore is so close to perfectly straight as to be beyond worrying about.
That said, lesser barrels with even small amounts of bore curvature do show improvement when indexed.
Interesting topic, still reading.
best or not if and when my cz needs another barrel I wanna try a 24 or longer Bartlein with a faster twist rate maybe closer to a 1 in 8 just to try it . Two of our 22 rifles have had the same barrel one since the early 60's and the other from the 1970's both of wich still shoot great , I am not seeing the need to purchase a new one for many years to come . Best of luck which ever brands you go with .
