Night Vision Best bang for your buck in thermal imaging optics?
- Thread starter kR-15
- Start date
It is Large, not as heavy as you think and the older technology is in my opinion Superior. First off BST is Solar immune. What you ask is Solar Immune? Well that means that if your using the thermal Imager during the day and you just happen to accidentally point your thermal imager at the sun... you wont destroy the sensor. VOX and AS? If you pass the field of view over the sun, you will turn your super spiffy piece of equipment into a very expensive paper weight! That little known fact is HUGE ! ! !
NEXT BST doesn't have to be re calibrated every time the temp changes a couple of degrees. I think my Little FLIR M18 is cool and all but I spend half the time looking through it playing with buttons and menus to keep the image clear. In a hand held monocular its doable, but on a Weapons Sight? OHHH MY GOD it would drive me nuts to have to do. Speaking of buttons and menus and buttons ala the video game feel of most everything today, the W 1000 is refreshingly free of said drop down menus that you have to hunt through to get what you want done. It is knobs and switches that react in real time to what is going on.
Lets talk about that large size. Especially that HUGE assed (as in JLO big assed) piece of Germanium glass up front. With any optical system the larger the objective, the more it pulls in, in Long Wave Infrared information. While the unit is 320X240 in resolution, that large lens is why the W1000 looks better than ANY other 320 system out there. In comparison test where I have asked random people at trade shows to compare 320 MTMs with custom built 3Xs (much larger objectives than the insight offered 2X) with the W1000 and a 640 M18s the estimation is that the W1000 is not half the resolution of the 640 M18 but that it is at least 80% the resolution of the M18 with the a fore mentioned 640 core and it has greater resolution than the 3Xed MTM by a noticeable amount.
Soooo best bang for the buck, The W1000 in my opinion is it. We haven't even touched on the fact that it is a Military grade piece of hardware that is still in the US Military inventory today OR that there is a rechargeable battery system available for these that will give you 14 hours of use. Or the fact that there is a small mountain of Spare parts available as well as the company that did the contract repair work on these for Ratheon that is QUITE willing to support these for years to come.
The W 1000, is in my opinion the best bang for the buck!
OHHH one last thing, Vehicle mounted Pan Tilt Systems that allow you to mount the W1000 to your truck and look at a screen in your truck while remotely panning and tilting the unit are, on the way.
I'd like to add something to the original posters questions.
What is the best bang for the buck thermal weapon sight with at least a 3 year warranty?
I am not in a position to let go of 7k and have any issues with the unit after a year hence I am not shopping for thermal until someone brings a longer warranty to the table.
BB
What is the best bang for the buck thermal weapon sight with at least a 3 year warranty?
I am not in a position to let go of 7k and have any issues with the unit after a year hence I am not shopping for thermal until someone brings a longer warranty to the table.
BB
Have you considered a FLIR T50? Rock solid with excellent warranty. Of course, the T70 is about to be released.....
Yeap, our demo unit will be here next week where we will review it well. Yes they do come with a factory FLIR warranty. We've been looking forward to this model for awhile now, stay tuned.
Vic
Flir Warranty-
Warranty: Purchasing this product entitles you to a 1 Year Warranty from the original date of purchase. At our discretion your equipment can be repaired or replaced with new or refurbished product or parts, if any product or parts are determined to be defective due to materials or workmanship. Shipping & handling is not included in this warranty.
I'd say normal warranty
They do cover their uncooled Vanadium Oxide microbolometers for 10 years though....and have excellent customer service.
Does anyone sell a SquareTrade warranty on thermals 
Last I checked COSTCO doesn't carry them...
Need a "bumper to bumper" warranty on these things for the money, otherwise I will wait for disposable thermal in the next 10 years.
BB
Last I checked COSTCO doesn't carry them...
Need a "bumper to bumper" warranty on these things for the money, otherwise I will wait for disposable thermal in the next 10 years.
BB
Does anyone sell a SquareTrade warranty on thermals
Last I checked COSTCO doesn't carry them...
Need a "bumper to bumper" warranty on these things for the money, otherwise I will wait for disposable thermal in the next 10 years.
BB
Then wait!
I agree with bennybone on warrenty. If i am going to pay 5Gs or more i want more then a year warranty. If any scope has such a good write up that it is the next best thing to sex then it should be backed up with a 3-5 year warranty. MM
Doesn't show to cover their weapon sights under this 10 yr warranty
FLIR Systems announces new warranty policy
That is not their Government Systems which produces military grade thermal weapon sights, that is their commercial Personal System that produces handheld scanners and cameras for the public, the two divisions are completely different with different markets.
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Ok so here is a question to everyone jumping up and down about the factory warranty vs non factory warranty. Do those of you In this camp, believe that we, the companies selling the W1000 Thermal Weapon sights under the program the we have in place, are going to default on these warranties and not back up what we are selling?
Don't be shy now,
Are you implying that our warranty is somehow flawed or our intention is to cheat customers? OR that we somehow won't be able to stand behind what we say? Please enlighten me.
Don't be shy now,
Are you implying that our warranty is somehow flawed or our intention is to cheat customers? OR that we somehow won't be able to stand behind what we say? Please enlighten me.
Personally, I do not know as I have never had warranty service on my FLIR PS-32, FLIR LS-64, FLIR T-50, or FLIR T-60 after hundreds of hours of hardcore use.
In my mind, the most expensive components of all thermal systems are the microbolometer with its associated software drivers and the germanium lens system, other than that is just switches, battery contacts, and cases. I would prefer the expensive items be warranted longer and I don't mind repairing the external switches and such myself.
In my mind, the most expensive components of all thermal systems are the microbolometer with its associated software drivers and the germanium lens system, other than that is just switches, battery contacts, and cases. I would prefer the expensive items be warranted longer and I don't mind repairing the external switches and such myself.
Pete -
I don't follow where you are taking the comments about the warranty, specifically that the questions/comments are aimed at implying your warranty is flawed or that you won't back it up. How are you reading the above posts to come to this?
Regarding a warranty:
I look at purchasing with a warranty in this way, I factor the resale value of the units at the end of the warranty period and what it is going to cost me to get into the next warrantied unit. For example:
Say total cost is 8k with a 12 month warranty with a resale value of 5k that equals 3k of usage cost for the warranty period.
Say total cost is 8k with a 36 month warranty and resale value of 5k, this comes out to about 650 dollars of usage cost annually.
When an individual factors how much time we actually spend hunting, it becomes easier to justify the annual cost of 650 dollars vs 3k.
Bottomline is this way of thinking is non-conformant to the traditional thought of buying to own for the life of the product. I attribute it to the pace that the market moves towards enhanced models or the frequency of new/additional retailers that bring units to market.
To say it another way, if I were shopping cars/trucks I may own a Dodge for a few years then a Ford and then a Hyundai - it all boils down to who has the best price and warranty at the time of resale/purchase. The benefit to making purchases this way is that you are covered when something does go wrong, it isn't a hope that it will go wrong.
I will buy a thermal weapon sight when the warranty offered is 3 - 5 years or when the price comes down to make the annual usage cost justifiable.
BB
Before this becomes a heated debate.. Price is what you pay. Value is what you get. - Warren Buffet.
What you looking to accomplish and what is important to you? Yes kill coyotes, alright!
How far out do you want to detect vs recognize a heat signature? As an example the T70 is going to have a lower recognition range, range id and lower detection than the T50 but will be more expensive... I'm sure this is because of other unique features. In my opinion I feel that this decreases the value of the system.
Do you have a preference for hand held or weapon mounted? This can result in a significant price difference
Will you be satisfied with a 24HZ rate (what the human eye see's)? I certainly would not purchase a thermal that is less than 24HZ. Your coyote will appear to be skipping across the field.
Are you a battery stickler? I would definitely steer clear of proprietary rechargeable batteries that are in the lower end FLIR units because when you are sitting in the field and your battery is dead you may be a little upset at the price.
Magnification - I do not see the value in digital zoom. I prefer to add a external magnified lens or have built in magnification. Some people are a little sticker shocked at a price for the 3X germanium lens to add to the front of some of the hand held Thermals. However when you compare the quality of image in a digital zoom to an external magnified lens there is no comparison.
Do you think color pallets are the best thing since slice bread? How do you feel about navigating through menus?
I guess I'm more opinionated on thermals than I knew. I hope that helps you narrow down what you are looking for out of a thermal. Once we have more of an idea than we can help you find the appropriate thermal to meet your needs. I would only purchase FLIR or L3 Thermal Units.
What you looking to accomplish and what is important to you? Yes kill coyotes, alright!
How far out do you want to detect vs recognize a heat signature? As an example the T70 is going to have a lower recognition range, range id and lower detection than the T50 but will be more expensive... I'm sure this is because of other unique features. In my opinion I feel that this decreases the value of the system.
Do you have a preference for hand held or weapon mounted? This can result in a significant price difference
Will you be satisfied with a 24HZ rate (what the human eye see's)? I certainly would not purchase a thermal that is less than 24HZ. Your coyote will appear to be skipping across the field.
Are you a battery stickler? I would definitely steer clear of proprietary rechargeable batteries that are in the lower end FLIR units because when you are sitting in the field and your battery is dead you may be a little upset at the price.
Magnification - I do not see the value in digital zoom. I prefer to add a external magnified lens or have built in magnification. Some people are a little sticker shocked at a price for the 3X germanium lens to add to the front of some of the hand held Thermals. However when you compare the quality of image in a digital zoom to an external magnified lens there is no comparison.
Do you think color pallets are the best thing since slice bread? How do you feel about navigating through menus?
I guess I'm more opinionated on thermals than I knew. I hope that helps you narrow down what you are looking for out of a thermal. Once we have more of an idea than we can help you find the appropriate thermal to meet your needs. I would only purchase FLIR or L3 Thermal Units.
I'm looking for one clip on unit to switch between a AR (5.56), EBR (7.62) & bolt action rifle (.300 Win. Mag.). All rifles will be suppressed and the unit will be used in front of the day scopes already mounted at their lowest power if adjustable. ( 4x, 4.5x & 5x respectively ) Use of a CR123A battery would make things easy but not a deal breaker. The ability to use it as a hand held device is not needed as this sight will be rail mounted when I am out in the field looking for piggies, coyotes or The Rabbit of Caerbannog, ect, ect. Something other than the white/black hot & the ability to record would be nice,. but again I could easily make due without.
I'd rather go with a thermal unit as opposed to NV,. for the amount of money involved I would rather save up a little more for a thermal. I have access to a helmet mounted NV and can use that with a IR unit on a rifle already.
So what am I looking for?
Sky pup has written a great deal on the thermal devices, and seems to be very satisfied.
I have a pvs-24 in front of several variable high end scopes as well as an acog and eotech and am very happy with it. I get excellent target identification at 4 power. Target ID and shot placement are my goals so I am very impressed with the 24, and 4 power is my best magnification range..
I have a pvs-24 in front of several variable high end scopes as well as an acog and eotech and am very happy with it. I get excellent target identification at 4 power. Target ID and shot placement are my goals so I am very impressed with the 24, and 4 power is my best magnification range..
I would look into what sky pup has mentioned about thermal. Since your first desire is a clip on thermal than I would look to the FLIR T50. Oh I know the internet community is all hopped up on the new T70. Since you will be the one making the purchase I would do additional research into the differences between the T70 and the T50. Do not let other companies simply tell you.
The T50 works great at 4x magnification.
It is extremely difficult to find accurate recoil ratings when it comes to thermal. Most of the higher end thermals are still only rated to .308 if that. If other distributors (not the manufacturer) tell you otherwise, get their warranty in writing.
The T50 works great at 4x magnification.
It is extremely difficult to find accurate recoil ratings when it comes to thermal. Most of the higher end thermals are still only rated to .308 if that. If other distributors (not the manufacturer) tell you otherwise, get their warranty in writing.
Do you think there will be a price break on the T50 with the release of the T70? Isn't the T50 fairly new as well? Maybe they will be like high def TV's. When they came out, no one could afford one, now look. I bought a PVS-14 with IR laser, wish I would of saved another year or so for the T-50. When out walking at night with the PVS-14, without an IR light critters are still hard to see. With a IR light things seem to be drown out.
The FLIR T-50 is mil-spec 100% rated for Browning .50 cal, in fact one of the internal ballistic digital reticules, which allow it to be used as a stand alone scope, is specifically for use the Browning M2 .50 cal machine gun.
I have over 100 rounds of full power handload 7.62X51mm through mine with no problems, and hundreds and hundreds of 5.56mm.
I limit my shots to about 250 yards or less at night and have never missed anything at anytime under any circumstances with the T-50, it is my GOTO thermal instrument.
I have over 100 rounds of full power handload 7.62X51mm through mine with no problems, and hundreds and hundreds of 5.56mm.
I limit my shots to about 250 yards or less at night and have never missed anything at anytime under any circumstances with the T-50, it is my GOTO thermal instrument.
The whole solar argument must be a myth. I am pretty sure high end cars use the FLIR technology and never heard of those units blowing up. Who is going to use a thermal during the day anyway?
As to your lens argument, why does the T70 have a small 19mm lens but everyone thinks it is soooo great?
As to your trade show comments. Field experience is the only thing that will tell what is what. Close up views like @ a trade show do not tell you anything. Hunt with the units over a period of time in varying conditions and get back with me. After you return from the chiropractor of course from hauling the W-1000-9 around.lol
We can agree to disagree. Raytheon makes good stuff. The IR 250 I have as a spare is adequate for spotting when needed. I am pretty sure it has the same internals as the scope you are trying to sell here. The THOR units give a more crisp detail. The Raytheon units technology leave a glowing blur around the hot objects such as an animal. Not that big a deal, just annoying.
The W-1000-9 is capable, but for the same money, the THOR 2x beats it hands down for all the reasons that count.
Superior image
Small package(cannot stress this enough...very important)
accurate return to zero when taken off the rifle and placed back on
fast battery replacement
long battery run time (6-8 hrs.)
Proven FLIR brand internals
Did I mention small light package? Look online @ some of the pictures of folks rifles with this mammoth W-1000-9 mounted to it.
Light weight....best I remember the W-1000-9 is heavy.
With all this said, here is a video to show how the THOR adds up:
[video=youtube;XWrlio4-Hus]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWrlio4-Hus[/video]
Hooper, I'll check the video tomorrow at work, but the T-70 has a 35mm objective and is good out to 600 yards, that is plenty for me and I enjoy the large FOV.
As we understand directly from the PM at FLIR the "2-5-10" warranty is not going to apply to the T-70. Some of our customers were leaning toward to the FLIR system over the PAS-13G from L3 and this is a little bit of a game changer for them.
The one I had a chance to demo last summer must have been a prototype. It had a teenee weenie lens. I found the little joystick that controls everything cumbersome too.
Maybe they changed all that so you can use it with gloved hands. Looking at the photo, comared to the 30mm scope behind it, the lens may be 35mm. Either way, there comes a point where a huge lens as seen on the Raytheon units is not needed.
Let me know if the screen is sitting sideways in the housing too like the T50. I hope the production unit meets your needs.
I concur. I have one myself. Although it's larger than the newer units, it's an incredible value at $8000. And it's a genuine military-issue unit with all the toughness that goes with that.
"The whole solar argument must be a myth. I am pretty sure high end cars use the FLIR technology and never heard of those units blowing up. Who is going to use a thermal during the day anyway?"
This is not a myth, we see many damaged MTM's in our service department.
"As to your trade show comments. Field experience is the only thing that will tell what is what. Close up views like @ a trade show do not tell you anything. Hunt with the units over a period of time in varying conditions and get back with me. After you return from the chiropractor of course from hauling the W-1000-9 around.lol"
We typically have a T-50, Flir M18 (640x480), Insight MTM, X-50, X-200, PAS-13 v1,v2 and the W-1000 at our demos. These are at ranges that vary from 200 to over 1000 yards. The reactions of people viewing and handling these systems is very interesting. You can always tell who's been reading the Internet, who actually hunts and who's actually used thermal in the past. I'll say that almost nothing you read on the Internet will prepare you for the reality of the differences in these units. it's also interesting to hear the comments about the different units. We have extensive knowledge of all of these units and try to offer guidance on the best unit for your requirements. That being said we find that what customers settle on in a thermal is often driven by cosmetics and bells and whistles rather than pure performance. This isn't as true with NV because the units all generally look similar cosmetically. While I'm not guilty of this with thermal gear I am with automobiles so I do understand the phenomenon. So again, the most bang for the buck is the W-1000 but it is fugly compared to a Thor.
"The W-1000-9 is capable, but for the same money, the THOR 2x beats it hands down for all the reasons that count."
"Superior image." The image is not superior or even as good as a W-1000
"Small package(cannot stress this enough...very important).". Yes it is small
"accurate return to zero when taken off the rifle and placed back on." The W-1000 can use ANY brand of ACOG mount, so should have the same return to zero.
"fast battery replacement"
"long battery run time (6-8 hours)" Our customers are reporting 3-4 hours.
"Proven FLIR brand internals."
"Did I mention small light package? Look online @ some of the pictures of folks rifles with this mammoth W-1000-9 mounted to it.
Light weight....best I remember the W-1000-9 is heavy."
W-1000 weighs 3.4 pounds with batteries. In my opinion the W-1000 is by far the most bang for the buck. It's a military thermal that takes military batteries, is solar immune and never needs to be calibrated and is weather proof because it never rains while your out hunting. It is as serviceable and reliable as a thermal comes. But hey, we sell FLIR and INSIGHT thermals as well, and we even sell the Thor, so if your convinced by the internets that the Thor is the most bang for the buck give us a chance to make you a good deal on one. I will say this about the Thor, it is the coolest looking of the lesser expensive consumer thermal sights.
This is not a myth, we see many damaged MTM's in our service department.
"As to your trade show comments. Field experience is the only thing that will tell what is what. Close up views like @ a trade show do not tell you anything. Hunt with the units over a period of time in varying conditions and get back with me. After you return from the chiropractor of course from hauling the W-1000-9 around.lol"
We typically have a T-50, Flir M18 (640x480), Insight MTM, X-50, X-200, PAS-13 v1,v2 and the W-1000 at our demos. These are at ranges that vary from 200 to over 1000 yards. The reactions of people viewing and handling these systems is very interesting. You can always tell who's been reading the Internet, who actually hunts and who's actually used thermal in the past. I'll say that almost nothing you read on the Internet will prepare you for the reality of the differences in these units. it's also interesting to hear the comments about the different units. We have extensive knowledge of all of these units and try to offer guidance on the best unit for your requirements. That being said we find that what customers settle on in a thermal is often driven by cosmetics and bells and whistles rather than pure performance. This isn't as true with NV because the units all generally look similar cosmetically. While I'm not guilty of this with thermal gear I am with automobiles so I do understand the phenomenon. So again, the most bang for the buck is the W-1000 but it is fugly compared to a Thor.
"The W-1000-9 is capable, but for the same money, the THOR 2x beats it hands down for all the reasons that count."
"Superior image." The image is not superior or even as good as a W-1000
"Small package(cannot stress this enough...very important).". Yes it is small
"accurate return to zero when taken off the rifle and placed back on." The W-1000 can use ANY brand of ACOG mount, so should have the same return to zero.
"fast battery replacement"
"long battery run time (6-8 hours)" Our customers are reporting 3-4 hours.
"Proven FLIR brand internals."
"Did I mention small light package? Look online @ some of the pictures of folks rifles with this mammoth W-1000-9 mounted to it.
Light weight....best I remember the W-1000-9 is heavy."
W-1000 weighs 3.4 pounds with batteries. In my opinion the W-1000 is by far the most bang for the buck. It's a military thermal that takes military batteries, is solar immune and never needs to be calibrated and is weather proof because it never rains while your out hunting. It is as serviceable and reliable as a thermal comes. But hey, we sell FLIR and INSIGHT thermals as well, and we even sell the Thor, so if your convinced by the internets that the Thor is the most bang for the buck give us a chance to make you a good deal on one. I will say this about the Thor, it is the coolest looking of the lesser expensive consumer thermal sights.
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I'll try to answer some of your questions above but you're jumping around between the T70 (a $13.7k clip on that's not out yet) and the 2x ATN Thor- a low budget commercial NV dedicated weapon sight on the market that sells for around $7k for the 2x 320 "60hz" model.
Superior image- The OP asked about bang for the buck- You compared a 2x system with a cheap chinese OLED display to the 3.1x W1000 that has a Mil-Spec Thomas Micro display used in military aircraft or armored vehicles. I never have to calibrate or NUC the W1000- ever- and I can adjust gain and contrast on the fly while viewing my target. These changes are made via a menu system in either the ATN or the T series and are about like setting my VCR to record Punky Brewster in 1987. Ask the DOD how much they complain about clunky menus in TWS systems. In regards to the thermal clip-ons I wouldn't go around comparing image quality between dedicated weapon sights and thermal clip-ons- dedicated sights are going to typically look a lot better- even ATNs- A clip-on is purchased because the user wants flexibility and is willing to sacrifice image quality to get it. This thread is about bang for the buck so a flexible $13.7k clip-on with reduced IQ isn't really a player here.
Solar Immune. Solar immunity isn't a myth- its a key selling point for the detector type, look it up. If you want to test the theory go point your Thor and that IR250 at the sun tomorrow and then let me know which one still has a useable image. The VOx core might somewhat recover- eventually. Don't try that too many more times. Your IR250 doesn't have the same detector as the W1k but they are both BST. The JSOW missile and the W1k have the same detector. -320x, 25um, 60hz.
Lens- Pete at I^2 talked about the lens and I can add some detail. The large lens in the W1k has to do with detector size and maintaining an F/1 lens. Smaller detector pitches (17um vs 25um) aren't being developed for performance- they make it possible for manufacturers to use smaller, cheaper IR glass- a major cost in any thermal system. IR or visible, F numbers still dictate optical performance and cheaper, smaller, higher f-number glass doesn't make the unit perform better- close pitch detectors with small optics can now get closer to more expensive, larger, optical systems. The W1k is a true 3.1x magnification. Compare it to other 3x systems and you find out that designers have a habit of fudging their theoretical magnification power numbers in the commercial world... Oddly, many of these units aren't really 3x. The W1k is. When compared to the 2x Thor its not even fair to compare target image size at distance- something that shooter know to be important. The big glass doesn't make the W1k any smaller of a unit but we were talking about bang for the buck, right?
Smaller size- You win. Straight up. And i'm fine with that based on the above (and below)
Mount repeatability/return to zero. The W1k had to meet a spec of .5 mrad repeatability if I recall correctly. I don't believe the Thor had to meet any spec. Ever. In the event I do need to adjust windage and elevation, I can adjust the W1k just like a standard daytime rifle scope. Thor and et al?- back to programming the VCR so you don't miss Knight Rider. Speaking of the Thor and repeatability, we hear from a few in the NV industry that the Thor may have some trouble holding zero on larger bore rifles. Its hearsay to me because I haven't tested it but maybe someone will post some .308 shot groups from a couple different units. I can respond with some W1k groups on a .308 bolt rifle. And an M60 (its rated for that) I don't have any shot group placement for the AT-4 rocket launcher but the W1k is rated for that too...
Fast battery replacement/battery life: The W1k has the commercial battery pack or you can use the PAS-13 Li-ion battery packs that we sell as well. They are lighter and run about 14 hours. About double of anything else. We turn them on at dark and every once in while I forget to turn it off. Its still running about noon the next day when remember to get it out of the truck. (Yeah, I left in the truck, we hunt 3 or 4 nights a week)
Proven FLIR package You mean a FLIR Tau detector soldered to a ATN board set? Specifics on the number of subbed out pixels, actual NETD/sensitivity spec are a few things ATN probably doesn't list in their spec sheet. I think they have improved on some of their firmware issues but I don't have a lot to comment on here. There was a point in my career where I got to see or discuss hundreds of thousands or even million(s) of dollars of thermal imaging weapon sights that died on the test weapons or the shaker at work. I worry about commercial thermal weapon sights, period. I test I2 and thermal systems for shock. HASS/HALT accelerated test, shock analysis, FFT/SRS shock profiles mean something to me and "We shot it on a whole bunch of rifles but mainly 5.56mm" doesn't leave me with a warm fuzzy on a multi-thousand dollar optic. That's why we sell a weapon sight that is built to Mil-spec standards.
I digressed, (sorry) this thread is about bang for the buck.
Weight The W1k with the li-ion battery is slightly more than say the T70 with an Elcan Specter scope. The Thor would be lighter but I think i've covered the performance side well enough that would offset the difference. From helmet and rifle pics posted here from the FLIR T-Series King on this forum I would guess weight vs. performance doesn't appear to be a factor. With a helmet that has ALL the NV accessories installed and rifle with what has to be a fire control solution computer installed on it and then at least 3 optics, I fail to see why that the W1k weapon sights size or weight would even be an issue. (Sorry Skypup, but I think i'm just jealous you have managed to somehow bring all that shit with you at any one time, you are a walking NV billboard and I really want to sponsor you, please PM me.)
Bang for the Buck?- The Raytheon W1000-9 is a $7300 (hey- a new price too!) military grade thermal weapon sight that can detect smallish animals like a piglet at a kilometer on a nice night, easy to use, has great optics, long battery run time, flexible (a thermal weapon sight that can be taken off the rifle and also a handheld or pan tilt system), reliable, accurate, etc... Sold by several knowledgable dealers here on the 'Hide. There are plenty of videos of W1000-9 death/carnage on Youtube and elsewhere on the 'net- it speaks for itself.
Ident
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The W1000 is a capable unit. I considered buying one until I realized it was too big and did not offer enough eye relief. It is too heavy and its size is enormous. Old style tech, bigger is better thinking.
3.4lbs is a lot.
There are better THOR units, but I chose to list the 2x THOR as the answer for Best bang for buck because it offers an adjustable focus, great image, ease of operation, small size, 1.4 lbs.
The specs and image quality are just about the same as the FLIR T50. Same microbolometer and similar lens for less money.
Can be had for less than $7000
As for the return to zero, they do return to zero. I have tested them.
If you want to sit around with a heavy rifle, get the W1000.
If you want a quality small unit for less money, and great utility, look @ the ThOR.
In my operation, a heavy big scope is a burden. Field rifles need to be light, accurate, and easily maneuvered for shots on running animals.
An AR15 with a capable, light, thermal sight is perfect. The THOR exceeds the needs in all these areas.
Couple more field experience notes are these:
The THOR has default settings in GAIN and Brightness that offer virtually no need to adjust. I have been in the field under overcast/humid conditions where other units mentioned in the thread had "White Out" conditions. Very little contrast at all. My Guests were fighting over the rifles with the THOR units. The THOR can also be shot on digital zoom and retain its zero.
In the same situation of overcast/humid, the THOR had a degraded image, but still functioned with far better results than the other units. Other nits were useless. In the last video, there was a heavy fog and PVS14 visibility was 35 feet. These videos below are perfect examples:
You can put up numbers all day if you want. Mil spec this, mil spec that. I will however use what I know works on a consistent basis and I think I have shown visual proof. I did not enter this thread to seem hostile. Complete opposite. I am just sharing my experience with the thread starter and I think the videos back it up.
BTW, the THOR has digital zoom that you can shoot on as it keeps your zero when zoomed. The last video shows this where I made 250 yd running shots.
I have put up clear evidence showing the capabilities of the THOR scopes with their as you call them "Chinese displays". I got a chuckle out of that one. Thanks
I guess I need to ask ATN if they sold me Chinese crap.
All this and I still have yet to visit a chiropractor from carrying a heavy rifle.
Hooper - watched the last video and for within 250 yards I can see why customers may purchase the THOR. BTW how big where the hogs? ATN is a great marketing machine and presents the THOR well.
Very nice videos Hooper. I wasn't trying to be a meanie, but that's why I don't post much on the internets. See I see the value in the Thor which is why we sell them. It's one of those products that just looks so good it's hard to dissuade people from buying it. The sales staff spends a great deal of time with customers dispelling all of the internet information and DISIMFORMATION that gets spewed. The Thor was one we tried to clarify for people but again the videos just look so good that we gave up and started selling them. Value is difficult to quantify and for some perceived value is what the they settle for. Part of this is because the consumer only sees the marketing machine at work, they are not aware of what goes into design, development and engineering of a product. For example you said proven FLIR internals and I had originally written "kinda sorta, its complicated" I decided not to post that but then Ident touched on it a bit. I'll just say this, if the Thor was 4k it would be closer to a good value.
The FLIR T-60 is also a great hog wacker too:
But I'll be nailing them with a FLIR T-70 real soon here too!
But I'll be nailing them with a FLIR T-70 real soon here too!
Thanks...
I will be the first to admit, ATN has sucked hind tit for many years in the NV arena. They marketed sub par stuff and still do on some 2nd gen cheaper models. They have in the past seen a bad rep for it.
They really hit a home run with the THOR.
Call it what it is. You guys keep beating around the bush in regards to the THOR's internals. Chinese this, kinda sorta FLIR that. Say what you mean. If you fail to do so, most will take it as your "Marketing technique" of half truths and "Disinformation". So if you know something truthful in its design, tell us.
I did not "Settle" on the THOR. I selected it as the best all around unit based on what I have seen with other brands and models.
In the last 2 years, I have used many different brands and models. I have looked at the specs of each and compared the units. Taken countless hours of video mostly with Hogs and Coyote kills. You see the running shots, how much lead is needed to make the shots, etc...
Keep in mind the videos above are from locations next to a river or other body of water on foggy nights. The worst conditions for thermal. I posted them to show this. The THOR is the only Thermal that a useable image was visible in these conditions. Other higher cost units were in "White Out" with little to no contrast. If you have been in the field using this stuff much, you know what I mean by White out. It sucks. No contrast or detail to the objects in the viewing area.
I have never been in a situation where the THOR let me down in this area. Degraded image maybe like the last video above, but nothing like other high end units mentioned in this thread. Under these conditions, black hot seems to work best with the THOR. Again, the default levels are set for a broader range of conditions of use and the lens are perfectly matched. The only thing I will occasionally do is adjust the screen brightness.
The videos below were taken under close to ideal conditions using the THOR except for the Coyote.
The last video below,(not posted as an advertisement) you even catch the bullet and what not exiting the HOG'S head, watch the slo mo. Not sure where any thoughts about the quality of the THOR, is in a Sub Par category. So, if there is anything inferior, please, as watchful industry experts, please let me know what they are. I think I can comprehend technical speak. Are these things going to revert to Chinese menu language text after a couple years?
I will go one further. Bring all the top brands and models to my lodge. I will treat you to a couple nights of Hog Action with guaranteed multiple kills. All will be videoed so we can compare later. Just bring some gas and food money. I have plenty of same model DVR units so all will be the same on the recording side. If you need a suppressor, I can screw one on your rifle while you are here.
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Hopper has some awesome real world experience and has used quite a wide variety of thermal gear as well.
I can still remember when he first asked me about thermal and went out and got his own, now I have a difficult time keeping up with him!
But I am basically a FLIR clip-on devotee, that's the way I roll....
I can still remember when he first asked me about thermal and went out and got his own, now I have a difficult time keeping up with him!
But I am basically a FLIR clip-on devotee, that's the way I roll....
Have you looked at the Nivisys UTAC-32M? It's a clip on thermal and VERY versatile. It's designed to mount on a picatinny rail in front of a day scope so no zeroing required. It has an internal reticle that can be turned on so it can be mounted as a stand alone optic. It's also very light and can be used as a hand held. I've often used it as a hand held while riding the fields, spotted my target, attached it to my AR and got the kill. At $7075, I think it's a very good deal and good bang for the buck. Check out Nivisys.com or GUNSandTHERMALS.com
That looks interesting. I know they use the FLIR brand cores in their new stuff. Looking @ the specs, it appears to be a FLIR T50 image quality and most likely uses the same VOX core. I see they have a 640 model so it should be like a T70 with that core. With the hot shoe function, it looks like a very versatile unit.
I will see if they will send me one so I can check it out and get some video. The price is less than the T70 as well but has very similar specs.
I will tell you this, claims of a "No Zero Shift" on clip ons is misleading. I have personally experienced up to 3moa shift.
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I like the looks of that thermal scope too, just have never heard anything about them from anyone who has used them. It looks like a very nice design and low to the bore as well.
I bow only to you Thom. You are still the master. I just polished up the classroom a bit.
Clip on is the way to go overall. 640 core to be specific. No better system than being able to swap it between weapons with little zero shift.
Finding one that will not "White Out" is the key.
For my operation however, rugged, lightweight, simple to use, dedicated weapon sights work perfect.
One thing I had trouble using the clip ons with running shots was this:
The further you place the thermal away from your fulcrum pivot point of your body, the faster the screen is moving when you pan across the field of view in relation to the objects in the FOV. So it exacerbates the chances of lag or dropped frames. It can be adjusted for with experience, but hitting longer shots on the run would be near impossible.
All the thermals mentioned in this thread are capable units and use the same cores in most cases. The subtle differences are what makes them perform different in the field.
I do not think one demo can put a number on one units performance. You really need to take them out over a few outings and "Get to know" the unit before deciding. I know this is not possible in most cases, but I hope my videos can give an indicator of what you are getting into with certain models.
I open the door to vendors. I will work with you on obtaining real world field videos of different units. I am able to submit raw footage to you of the demo unit you send to me. I am out 3-4 nights a week when I am not in my shop gun smithing. All types of conditions can be videoed. Hot, dry, wet, cool, overcast, etc..
I have a 4 scope picitinny rail setup that allows me to mount 4 scopes side by side and video the same scene. Or I can shoot varmints and get the footage.
I am sure we can work something out.
I own one. I've had it since Tuesday of last week and am just a new-be in the thermal world, so I don't have much real world experience to share. I got it because of its versatility. I live on a small farm and really can't look further than about 200yd without woods getting in the way.
1st night/evening out was seeing how it looked in front of various optics. Very small image when in front of my Aimpoint T1 and Eotech EXPS3-0...in addition I was getting bad reflections with a partial image of the view partially superimposed on the "normal" view (I wear glasses, maybe that was part of the problem). However, I happened to be testing it in front of the T1 when I saw an armadillo. I ran in the house, got some ammo, and got the armadillo. While it wasn't sighted in, I was close enough to get it. The dillo was BRIGHT white and ran off after being shot. I could hear flopping after it ran into the woods, so I walked a few feet and saw some white partially obscured by brush/weeds...it was the dead dillo.
The view through the Aimpoint PRO and CompM4 was very nice...no reflections, pretty big view. Both looked to be very useable when the UTAC is put on 2x digital zoom. View in front of a Nikon M223 2-8x was Very nice at 2x, a bit less so at 3-4x, not useable above 4x. Note: I've not viewed anything more than about 25yd through the M223/UTAC combo. In front of an ACOG TA02 4x, the jury is still out, still haven't done any longer range viewing.
I took it to the range, mounted on a 300 Blackout SBR AR in front of an Aimpoint PRO. My first test was shooting to see if it affected the point of aim/impact...FAIL...the bullet were hitting 2" higher at 34yd. I then realized that I had failed to follow the "zoom calibration prior to first use" procedure. Basically you go into the menu, select the "dot" reticle, select the elevation and azimuth menu selections and move the dot until it overlaps either the crosshairs or the dot of your day optic. It's now calibrated to that optic/rifle. The manual says calibration the dot reticle doesn't affect the other reticles and doesn't have to be done again unless you change the day optic/rifle. This time, testing it, it hit to the same impact point as the day scope without the thermal in front of it, both on 1x and 2x digital zoom. Removing the thermal and remounting it, it was still calibrated to the Aimpoint PRO and hit to the same impact point.
I then mounted it on my 300 Blackout Handi-Rifle as a stand alone optic and sighted it in, leaving it on the Handi for now. 1x for scanning; 2x for identifying or shooting. Each electronic "click" is suppose to move the impact 1.7cm at 100m. Sighting it in as stand alone, you have to have it in 2x digital zoom. What really helped there was writing out a chart as to which button you press to move the point of impact in what direction. I've now been walking about the farm every other evening (about 9-10pm). I can detect small critters at 100yd (rabbit, cat, fox, possum) out in the open, but can't identify until they either move or I get closer. For example: I didn't know a rabbit was a rabbit until it stood up and I saw the ears; later it started hopping about. I'm getting better at identifying small critters, for example, cats are either sitting up or crouching down. Deer and my goats I can see at 200yd, but can only identify them apart due to size and where they are (well, actually the goats are whiter I think due to their higher body temp). Last night I saw a strange, small critter sometimes jumping up and sometimes standing up on its hind feet; I think it was some type of weasel/mink. Sorry, no longer range viewing of animals yet.
Regarding recording of the thermal, I'm at a loss so far. I contacted SPI who sells a portable DVR that's suppose to be compatible with every thermal. SPI said I would have to have a video cable and what cable comes with the UTAC? None I said. I even sent SPI a closeup of the UTAC port. SPI also said if the UTAC is VGA, it will not work with any recorder. I contacted Nivisys. They said, "Nivisys has developed and now sells a cable with a VGA output. This allows a user to view the video on a computer monitor. Customer feedback led us to the decision to discontinue the X-Video because of the high cost. It ran almost $900 for us to make. The new VGA-VPM cable is a much more cost effective solution of getting video out of the unit and works with off-the shelf converters for signal conversion. The VGA cable also allows for external power IN and is priced at $125. I have attached the QRG of the VGA-VPM for you to overview." I am ignorant about how to record with the UTAC or if it is even possible out in the field, maybe my UTAC dealer can help. I don't want to view on a computer monitor, I want to record. If it also requires a converter, what would power the converter while out in the field? See...I'm ignorant of this aspect.
I need to do some longer range viewing and more testing. A friend is going to try and call some coyotes so I can see them at longer distances and also take me where I might see and shoot a hog. For now, it's neat to "own the night" around the farm. Oh, last night was the first time I've seen a mouse...the cats and foxes must keep them in check. For daytime practice, I use frozen bottles/pop cans and set the UTAC for black hot...the frozen then looks white with the thermal. The reticle is white when on black and automatically changes to black when on white. It's been so hot and muggy here in Florida, but last night the temp was down about 10 degrees...the thermal was noticeably better.
If anyone has specific questions, I will try and answer as best I can with my limited experience.
As Whole Bunches says below, the "No Zero Shift" in the Nivisys UTAC-32 series is achieved through the zoom alignment tool. Basically, you tell the UTAC what point to center the zoom on so that the zoom centers on your point of aim. Works well.
What part of Central Alabama are you in? I might be able to get one of these UTAC's and other Nivisys thermals in your hands for a night.
Holy chit!
Didn't know about that. I just bought an M18HD and glad I read this before I got a chance to use it! I look at the sun (not intentionally) with military thermal all the time with no issues although that's a totally different system (TADS) I just assumed the M18 would be the same.
A new article from the main outdoorsman:
The Maine Outdoorsman: Hunting Predators with the W1000 Thermal Weapon Sight by ModArmory
Two videos included in the article
The Maine Outdoorsman: Hunting Predators with the W1000 Thermal Weapon Sight by ModArmory
Two videos included in the article
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Thanks Hoop!!!
I just got off the phone talking the good folks at FLIR GS where they are producing my T-70 and shipping it out. I also am getting in touch with Mr. Guy Blocker, the FLIR Military Thermal Weapon Sight American Sniper Specialist and will be getting some info from him soon on my T-70.
FLIR also told me that their engineering staff decided to NOT to go ahead with the T-65 project that involved incorporating the new 640X512 core into the older T-50 model housing so that they could utilize their resources 100% for the production of the T-70 as they have received much larger orders for the T-70 than they had originally planned for.
My T-70 is on the production line right now and should be shipped out in the next ten working days!!!
If I am lucky, maybe I can get FLIR's "WiseGuy" to post some here on this forum so we can all learn a few new tricks!
One more difference between the T-70 unit and the T-75 unit is that the T-75 has 0.5X, 1X, and 2x to go with the larger lens system, whilst the T-70 has internal digital 0.5X, 1X, 2X and 4X instead.
They are also soon to get some black housings if you do not prefer the OD Green one....
The T-70 is a mil-spec type certified product and has been assigned the number SU-271/PAS by our government.
They are also soon to get some black housings if you do not prefer the OD Green one....
The T-70 is a mil-spec type certified product and has been assigned the number SU-271/PAS by our government.
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I spent under 3 grand for my AN/PAS-19 thermal scope.Old,looks like a cinder block on my rifles,but it works.
If I had the coin to spend on a better unit,I would've,but any thermal is better than no thermal in my book.
If I had the coin to spend on a better unit,I would've,but any thermal is better than no thermal in my book.
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