Best electronic powder scale out there?

[Dthomas3523]

Also, instead of buying calibrated check weights, you can make your own from wire.

Cause we want the best scale possible, but then we are going to make check weights from trash.

I love the internet.

 

[Bacarrat]

Seems like all those people F-Class John has interviewed, including Eril Cortina among other 'champions,' must be doing something wrong.... Since they all use a FX120i. I dunno. Versus some random dude on the internet that claims to know more but won't produce a resume...

I think in one of Cortina's interviews with Tod Hendricks he says he loads ammo on the Chargemaster...... And he is the current National Champion. I do think later on he did say he was getting a Promethus or a Autotrickler. Even in a another interview, Cortina says it doesn't matter that much, he uses a Prometheus because it's fast. And those guys test ever single variable. At the levels those guys shoot, I really don't think the scale doesn't even really matter that much when you have the skills and knowledge to win. IMO if a kernel or 2 makes that much of a difference, you might have the wrong load. I'm more a believer of if the load is within a node, it's going to shoot - with good SD (below 10) or even mediocre SD (10-20fps)

 

[NiteQwill]

Nodes don't exist.

 

[iceng]

Can you elaborate on this? The ups sign wave cleaner part that is

Sure. I covered this a while back, and someone else put me onto it. (Not my idea)

Short version is "led lights and fluros give weird flutter through your power lines and cause the scale to drift and do weird things."

Long answer is "I was always getting weird drift issues on my RCBS charge master when reloading in my shed. When in my house it was fine. My shed has 3 phase power, and the circuit which the power outlet was on was also on the same line (and safety trip switch) lights. I'd let the chargemaster warm up for an hour or 2, rezero, throw a charge, keep that charge spare, and recheck against it every 25 or so. Basically create a datum.

Inside it was fine. I have halogen / incandescent lights and no led or fluro (at the time). A customer told me about the fluro "flutter" to electronics. I got an extension lead, replugged my RCBS scale in the shed to a different outlet, which was not on anything else (lights, etc). My drift problem was greatly reduced, but not completely eliminated.

I eventually upgraded to the FX and AT3. I expected all my woes to go away. Nope.

New workshop, same issues. Checked every single power point for 1 to 2 hours, checking for drift and consistency. The office was awesome. Nice consistent temp, and almost no drift, very minimal. Was only 0.04gr over 1 hr, compares to 0.2gr in the workshop.

Another customer told me about the sine wave cleaning, I said that sounds super expensive, he said just get a cheap battery UPS. So I ordered one online.

Instantly all my issues, even the RCBS charge master, completely fixed. No more drift, or stupid warmup. My longest session has been 3 hours, while loading, checking every 50 against my first datum... Perfect over 350 rounds.

There's a few vids on youtube with people's setups for it also.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Sure. I covered this a while back, and someone else put me onto it. (Not my idea)

Short version is "led lights and fluros give weird flutter through your power lines and cause the scale to drift and do weird things."

Long answer is "I was always getting weird drift issues on my RCBS charge master when reloading in my shed. When in my house it was fine. My shed has 3 phase power, and the circuit which the power outlet was on was also on the same line (and safety trip switch) lights. I'd let the chargemaster warm up for an hour or 2, rezero, throw a charge, keep that charge spare, and recheck against it every 25 or so. Basically create a datum.

Inside it was fine. I have halogen / incandescent lights and no led or fluro (at the time). A customer told me about the fluro "flutter" to electronics. I got an extension lead, replugged my RCBS scale in the shed to a different outlet, which was not on anything else (lights, etc). My drift problem was greatly reduced, but not completely eliminated.

I eventually upgraded to the FX and AT3. I expected all my woes to go away. Nope.

New workshop, same issues. Checked every single power point for 1 to 2 hours, checking for drift and consistency. The office was awesome. Nice consistent temp, and almost no drift, very minimal. Was only 0.04gr over 1 hr, compares to 0.2gr in the workshop.

Another customer told me about the sine wave cleaning, I said that sounds super expensive, he said just get a cheap battery UPS. So I ordered one online.

Instantly all my issues, even the RCBS charge master, completely fixed. No more drift, or stupid warmup. My longest session has been 3 hours, while loading, checking every 50 against my first datum... Perfect over 350 rounds.

There's a few vids on youtube with people's setups for it also.

Thank you. I will definitely check this set up out. I knew a little about this phenomenon but didn't know how to correct it. I appreciate you typing all of that out. Hate to have such a good set up, then have drift give away some of the systems accuracy.

 

[NiteQwill]

I sold off my Autotrickler system and now run a pair of MatchMaster dispensers instead. I got tired of constantly fidgeting with the thrower body, the trickler base adjustments, etc. to keep everything running right. I don't have to screw with any of that on the MatchMaster.

I'd sell it too if I was sponsored by RCBS.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I cannot argue regarding the drift or repeatability of the FX-120 when I have not tested my scale a FX-300 (same thing) against a
more accurate scale.

I believe that @PracticalTactical is correct on the FX-120 after all it is a $600 scale and there are scales that cost
many thousands more.

Now in a practical sense here is some recent 223 data that I have.
I picked 223 because of all the calibers I load for it was very challenging trying to get low ES numbers.

Rifle is a Rem 700 with a Criterion remage barrel , 75gr Berger, tested on three different days .
Question is, would my ES improve with a better scale?

9/8/2021
Stats - Average 2836.65 fps
Stats - Highest 2838.55 fps
Stats - Lowest 2834.14 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 4.41 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 1.75 fps

Shot ID V0 V10
1 2839 2818
2 2837 2817
3 2836 2815
4 2834 2814
5 2838 2817



9/17/2021
Stats - Average 2828.58 fps
Stats - Highest 2834.48 fps
Stats - Lowest 2821.29 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 13.19 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 4.52 fps

Shot ID V0 V10
1 2832 2810
2 2829 2808
3 2834 2813
4 2830 2809
5 2824 2803
6 2821 2801
7 2828 2807
8 2834 2813
9 2825 2804


10/29/2021
Stats - Average 2814.95 fps
Stats - Highest 2823.79 fps
Stats - Lowest 2811.42 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 12.37 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 4.61 fps

Shot ID V0 V10
1 2812 2792
2 2813 2789
3 2824 2798
4 2814 2793
5 2812 2791
6 2822 2790
7 2818 2796
8 2811 2790
9 2811 2789
10 2812 2791

 

[tylerw02]

Ok, so you think I'm FOS huh... believe whatever you want.

Here's a quote directly from the dealers web site. Kinda sounds familiar huh...

This is the part where you guys start accusing me of plagiarizing this statement right.

A&D Weighing FX-120i reloading scales Balance - Precision Weighing Balances

If you are a competition benchrest shooter and shooting over 400 yards the FX-120i is NOT what you want to buy since you will be ± 1 or 2 kernels of powder. You either want a Prometheus powder measure or the Sartorius Entris64-1S.

A single kernel of Varget weighs ± 0.02 grains and the FX-120i increments in 0.02 grain divisions (0.02 gn > 0.04 gn > 0.06 gn, etc) and the linearity (or accuracy) is ± two(2) divisions or ± 0.04 grains. When shooting .308 ammo, on average, a single kernel of Varget roughly changes the velocity by 1.3 fps. So just a few kernels of variation can easily double the extreme spread in velocity. Out to 500+- yards it does not seem to make much difference, but beyond that and things can get ugly fast. Buying the right balance is just another tool to put more bullets closer to the desired point of impact.

It's all a matter of perspective and at what level one wishes to perform. Buy the FX-120i and it is a good weighing device but it is doubtful you are not going to win shooting competitions. Any way one looks at it, serious long-range shooting is not cheap. In their world, it often comes down to one point or even one "X" between winning or not.

Remember the motto -- buy once cry once -- If you stray from this motto it will bit you.

I didn't accuse you of being full of shit. I asked you a specific question which you haven't answered.

 

[tylerw02]

I think in one of Cortina's interviews with Tod Hendricks he says he loads ammo on the Chargemaster...... And he is the current National Champion. I do think later on he did say he was getting a Promethus or a Autotrickler. Even in a another interview, Cortina says it doesn't matter that much, he uses a Prometheus because it's fast. And those guys test ever single variable. At the levels those guys shoot, I really don't think the scale doesn't even really matter that much when you have the skills and knowledge to win. IMO if a kernel or 2 makes that much of a difference, you might have the wrong load. I'm more a believer of if the load is within a node, it's going to shoot - with good SD (below 10) or even mediocre SD (10-20fps)

Those last couple lines...you might be on to something

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Is there another scale that will go to .001 grain and will work with the autotrickler? If there was would the autotrickler be able to make use of the accuracy?

 

[NiteQwill]

Is there another scale that will go to .001 grain and will work with the autotrickler? If there was would the autotrickler be able to make use of the accuracy?

Compatible with A&D FX or FZ 120i, 200i, 300i, 500i

 

[Dthomas3523]

I cannot argue regarding the drift or repeatability of the FX-120 when I have not tested my scale a FX-300 (same thing) against a
more accurate scale.

I believe that @PracticalTactical is correct on the FX-120 after all it is a $600 scale and there are scales that cost
many thousands more.

Now in a practical sense here is some recent 223 data that I have.
I picked 223 because of all the calibers I load for it was very challenging trying to get low ES numbers.

Rifle is a Rem 700 with a Criterion remage barrel , 75gr Berger, tested on three different days .
Question is, would my ES improve with a better scale?

9/8/2021
Stats - Average 2836.65 fps
Stats - Highest 2838.55 fps
Stats - Lowest 2834.14 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 4.41 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 1.75 fps

Shot ID V0 V10
1 2839 2818
2 2837 2817
3 2836 2815
4 2834 2814
5 2838 2817



9/17/2021
Stats - Average 2828.58 fps
Stats - Highest 2834.48 fps
Stats - Lowest 2821.29 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 13.19 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 4.52 fps

Shot ID V0 V10
1 2832 2810
2 2829 2808
3 2834 2813
4 2830 2809
5 2824 2803
6 2821 2801
7 2828 2807
8 2834 2813
9 2825 2804


10/29/2021
Stats - Average 2814.95 fps
Stats - Highest 2823.79 fps
Stats - Lowest 2811.42 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 12.37 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 4.61 fps

Shot ID V0 V10
1 2812 2792
2 2813 2789
3 2824 2798
4 2814 2793
5 2812 2791
6 2822 2790
7 2818 2796
8 2811 2790
9 2811 2789
10 2812 2791

I don’t think anyone is arguing there aren’t other scales that are better.

But to even allude that you need more than an Fx120 to perform at a championship level is beyond ridiculous.

And any website which states you likely won’t be able to win with an fx120 has lost all credibility.

 

[John Glidewell]

I don’t think anyone is arguing there aren’t other scales that are better.

But to even allude that you need more than an Fx120 to perform at a championship level is beyond ridiculous.

And any website which states you likely won’t be able to win with an fx120 has lost all credibility.

Yeah, and I am wondering about some of these folks set ups, as in conditions. I moved my shop to a spare bedroom in the house. Clean power, temp and humidity controlled. I do not have any drift issues. Learned load room conditions and static can play hell with electronic scales. Looking forward to getting my v4 this month.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I don’t think anyone is arguing there aren’t other scales that are better.

But to even allude that you need more than an Fx120 to perform at a championship level is beyond ridiculous.

And any website which states you likely won’t be able to win with an fx120 has lost all credibility.

Welp..... that's all I really need to hear then.

 

[iceng]

What scale did the late Kelly McMillan use for his BR record which sat for... 25+ years ?

What setups are ELR shooters using in KO2M ?

Is the juice worth the squeeze ?

I love cool gadgets and new things. Case trimmers, annealers, presses, etc. Any one of us here could drop $10k if we were allowed and still not have a "complete" setup.

Spend some one shooter training and max out your abilities on what you currently have. I promise you, you are most likely NOT at the limits of your reloading and rifle setup. Learn to max that out first, then upgrade.

 

[Steel head]

I don’t think anyone is arguing there aren’t other scales that are better.

But to even allude that you need more than an Fx120 to perform at a championship level is beyond ridiculous.

And any website which states you likely won’t be able to win with an fx120 has lost all credibility.

Look at how many matches and championships were won with RCBS charge masters.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I don't understand some of you guys... It's like you are trying to console each other that some crappy old scale is good enough buddy. You not need to be afraid of better...

No, you do not NEED a better scale... But don't go off convincing each other that what you have is the ultimate standard either. If it's good enough for your needs, then its good enough.

The 3rd decimal place is not needed to shoot 1 MOA at 1000 yards, it is needed to minimize vertical dispersion so guys can realistically hold 1/4 MOA of vertical. Again, in the context of F Class with a round 1/2 MOA X ring, this maximizes the width of the center so rounds that hit high or low and off 1/4 MOA on wind do no leak out into the 10 ring.

Yes, with FX120 you will see at best a .08 grain variance in load charges. That will appear in the velocity spreads over a weekend long match.

Yes guys have set records with Chargemasters, either by luck, or before the other guys started getting better scales.

There is one other factor to consider, the larger the powder charge, the lower the error represents as a percentage of variance. So a guy loading 30 grains of powder will have twice the velocity spread of a guy loading 60 grains of powder, by load variance as a percent of total charge.

Even with perfect powder loads, you will still see a variance in FPS, but whatever that variance is, you can add to it the variance caused by the powder charge. You may not see it over 3 rounds, you may not see it over the 6 FPS error on your Labradar, but they are in there whether you want to see it or not.

These are not my opinion, these are simply statistical mechanical facts.

But again, if what you're doing is good enough for you, then good for you. Don't get a better scale.

 

[Steel head]

I don’t understand you.
You say scales that national level champions use aren’t good enough.

 

[Snuby642]

Got some news you can use pt.

The guys winning with less expensive equipment will continue to do so.

You can't buy skill no matter how much you spend cutting kernels of Varget in thirds.

As in many sports top tier competitors are compensated to use equipment that may not be the ultimate choice just to prove to the market that it is a viable choice.

I'll wager none of you can shoot the difference in 0.001 grains of powder you just like to argue.

If you could we would allready know your name.

 

[tylerw02]

I don't understand some of you guys... It's like you are trying to console each other that some crappy old scale is good enough buddy. You not need to be afraid of better...

No, you do not NEED a better scale... But don't go off convincing each other that what you have is the ultimate standard either. If it's good enough for your needs, then its good enough.

The 3rd decimal place is not needed to shoot 1 MOA at 1000 yards, it is needed to minimize vertical dispersion so guys can realistically hold 1/4 MOA of vertical. Again, in the context of F Class with a round 1/2 MOA X ring, this maximizes the width of the center so rounds that hit high or low and off 1/4 MOA on wind do no leak out into the 10 ring.

Yes, with FX120 you will see at best a .08 grain variance in load charges. That will appear in the velocity spreads over a weekend long match.

Yes guys have set records with Chargemasters, either by luck, or before the other guys started getting better scales.

There is one other factor to consider, the larger the powder charge, the lower the error represents as a percentage of variance. So a guy loading 30 grains of powder will have twice the velocity spread of a guy loading 60 grains of powder, by load variance as a percent of total charge.

Even with perfect powder loads, you will still see a variance in FPS, but whatever that variance is, you can add to it the variance caused by the powder charge. You may not see it over 3 rounds, you may not see it over the 6 FPS error on your Labradar, but they are in there whether you want to see it or not.

These are not my opinion, these are simply statistical mechanical facts.

But again, if what you're doing is good enough for you, then good for you. Don't get a better scale.

You assume a direct linear relationship between powder variation and velocity. That isn't true.

You assume one cannot break 1 MOA at 1,000 without the third decimal. That isn't true.

Nobody called any scale ultimate. You put words in peoples' mouths.

Please, answer the question I posed you earlier.

 

[NiteQwill]

Please, answer the question I posed you early.

He's not going to because he can't.

 

[PracticalTactical]

He's not going to because he can't.

I will try and answer questions that appear sincere.
I try to avoid responding to questions that appear antagonistic in nature.

 

[PracticalTactical]

You assume a direct linear relationship between powder variation and velocity. That isn't true.

You assume one cannot break 1 MOA at 1,000 without the third decimal. That isn't true.

Linear relationship: No, I said there is a variance even if the load is perfect. To that variation you must add the affect of the result of load variance. Yes the variance will appear over an aggregate. Just because you got the ball in the hole on a par 4 after 4 strokes, does not mean you are a scratch golfer. The bogies are still in the bag and they will be on your score card soon enough.

1 MOA: No, I did not say that either... I said it wont matter if that's all you want. Obviously mileage varies depending on the size of the powder charge as I stated above.

I am saying you don't have a snowballs chance in hell of reliably holding 1/4 MOA vertical at 1000 yards without it. Again, over an aggregate and mileage varies with case capacity.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Got some news you can use pt.

The guys winning with less expensive equipment will continue to do so.

You can't buy skill no matter how much you spend cutting kernels of Varget in thirds.

As in many sports top tier competitors are compensated to use equipment that may not be the ultimate choice just to prove to the market that it is a viable choice.

I'll wager none of you can shoot the difference in 0.001 grains of powder you just like to argue.

If you could we would allready know your name.

You guys are attacking me like I'm feeding you poison for christ sakes. Like a better scale is goingf to hurt you somehow.

You think a guy only knows what he's doing because he is willing the time and money to travel all over the world to compete? I don't need to be that guy to know that I know one hell of alot more than most of you and that I'm wasting my time here.

If you never heard of me makes me wrong, then you have problems I cant help you with.

I'm talking about striving for a level of accuracy that is beyond your interest, so it just does not apply to you.

 

[John Glidewell]

No one has attacked you. They have or are seeking your credentials, which you have not provided.

I don't need to be that guy to know that I know one hell of alot more than most of you and that I'm wasting my time here.

If you really feel that way, stop responding, please.

 

[NiteQwill]

I will try and answer questions that appear sincere.
I try to avoid responding to questions that appear antagonistic in nature.

People are asking to put your money where your mouth is. You can't.

No one can shoot the difference of 1/2 a kernel.

 

[tylerw02]

I will try and answer questions that appear sincere.
I try to avoid responding to questions that appear antagonistic in nature.

My question was sincere. You still can't/won't answer it.

 

[Snuby642]

This guy thinks he can shoot the difference in a thousands of a grain.

I say he is incorrect to be polite.

I know not my usual style. Lol

Too many other factors have a tiney uncontrollable variation that wash out measurements that small to be discernible.

The top shooters don't fool with that because they can't see a benifit iether .

Only benifit I see is a useless talking point.

 

[spife7980]

You guys are attacking me like I'm feeding you poison for christ sakes. Like a better scale is goingf to hurt you somehow.

You think a guy only knows what he's doing because he is willing the time and money to travel all over the world to compete? I don't need to be that guy to know that I know one hell of alot more than most of you and that I'm wasting my time here.

If you never heard of me makes me wrong, then you have problems I cant help you with.

I'm talking about striving for a level of accuracy that is beyond your interest, so it just does not apply to you.

No, its because youre stupid.

 

[PracticalTactical]

This guy thinks he can shoot the difference in a thousands of a grain.

No, I never said that either, but I can certainly shoot inside a tenth of a grain. Which is really the point.

And Spife is right, I am stupid... I spent a dozen years as the engineering manager developing aircraft parts for Boeing, Curtis Wright, Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce, Westland Helicopter Raytheon and Nasa. Drunk in a bar 30 years ago I could regurgitate at least 10 phone numbers of girls we met just for fun. I've been the director of research and development for the past 15 years, dealing with thermal expansion, deflection under load, failure mode analysis etc. When a design fails, it winds up on my desk to figure out what went wrong and what to do about it. You think I cant figure out how to load quality ammunition? Good luck with that.

So why am I stupid? Because I thought there might be some one on this thread with the sense to find value in the point I'm done making.

But hey, Erik Cortina is a cement contractor... Go listen to him.

 

[NiteQwill]

No, I never said that either, but I can certainly shoot inside a tenth of a grain. Which is really the point.

Jesus. If you can shoot inside the tenth of a grain, what is the point of you going on and on about a scale that is accurate to 0.00xx grains?

I'm curious to see your trophy wall. I have none but I'm curious to see what a tenth of a grain can win me.

My fx120 yields me terrible numbers... Need an upgrade to reach elite status.

 

[tylerw02]

I don't think he's going to answer my question because he's never tested it.

 

[Snuby642]

Why is it when somebody is getting pissey they always default to badmouthing Erick Cortina?

Besides someone that sits around load test fixtures reading strain guage results all day and thinks they know about aircraft.

LMAO

 

[Dthomas3523]

This is exactly why he’s still allowed to post on the hide.

Pure entertainment.

 

[iceng]

Jesus. If you can shoot inside the tenth of a grain, what is the point of you going on and on about a scale that is accurate to 0.00xx grains?

I'm curious to see your trophy wall. I have none but I'm curious to see what a tenth of a grain can win me.

My fx120 yields me terrible numbers... Need an upgrade to reach elite status.
View attachment 7737543

Fuk me. I thought my 25 shot string with 9/22 was impressive.

That's just heroic. If I could give you a medal, I would.

 

[Keystone183]

But hey, Erik Cortina is a cement contractor... Go listen to him.

He builds barndominiums dumbass. Get your facts straight.....

 

[tylerw02]

I love how this guy can't tell us that how much going to three decimal places improves vertical on a tuned load at 1,000 yards, he can't share his accomplishments (because he doesn't travel), but he's a better shooter than those who do have a resume in the sport, all based on his "superior" occupation...therefore you must use his favorite scale. I don't think he even read what OP's goals even were...

 

[John Glidewell]

But hey, Erik Cortina is a cement contractor... Go listen to him.

That's funny right there!

Erik Cortina

Erik Cortina is one of the top F-Class shooters in the US, and has had tremendous success at National and World F-Class Championships. Erik is Texas State Long Range Champion 3 years in a row and has…

www.lapua.com

do you have a page, sponsor, world championships?

"Erik Cortina is one of the top F-Class shooters in the US, and has had tremendous success at National and World F-Class Championships. Erik is Texas State Long Range Champion 3 years in a row and has also won a bronze medal in the World Championships. He also placed 3rd in F-Class Nationals. Recently, Erik also began shooting competitively in PRS in 2018, and won his first match at the SoTex club match on July 23."

 

[padom]

How many even sort brass anymore at this point too…..

Spoiler alert….almost none.

People sort brass?? lolol

 

[PracticalTactical]

I'm not trying to pick on Cortina. He seems like a good guy and I don't mean to make him a target, he's just a name someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

You guys are so awestruck by guys like him and you dream of doing what he does. That is your problem.

I do not do that, EVER.

I dream of what I will do to do it better than he does or "they" do.

Certain guys on this thread are vigorously defending the status quo, and for that reason you can never be better or advance. I truly feel sad for those of you.

If you are always chasing a winner, you are always behind him and can never be better.

Progress is made by people who go beyond what the crowds do or what the winners do.

 

[spife7980]

 

[NiteQwill]

No one is awestruck by anyone. The only person awestruck with someone is yourself.

You are the only person in this whole thread, which has deviated way off course, that claims to shoot the difference of a tenth of a grain yet provides no results otherwise. AND suggests that a scale that measures 0.00xx grains is the difference between any minute changes in vertical.

If you can show an unedited video of you shooting such a group at 1000 yards that challenges other world class shooters, I will PayPal, Venmo, whatever you $250.

At this point, I think you're trolling but whatever.

 

[tylerw02]

I'm not trying to pick on Cortina. He seems like a good guy and I don't mean to make him a target, he's just a name someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

You guys are so awestruck by guys like him and you dream of doing what he does. That is your problem.

I do not do that, EVER.

I dream of what I will do to do it better than he does or "they" do.

Certain guys on this thread are vigorously defending the status quo, and for that reason you can never be better or advance. I truly feel sad for those of you.

If you are always chasing a winner, you are always behind him and can never be better.

Progress is made by people who go beyond what the crowds do or what the winners do.

So are you better than Corina? Because of your scale?

 

[orkan]

I find it strange that there is no proper qualifier when discussing small powder increments and their respective changes in accuracy/precision.

I can tell you from experience that a tenth of a grain is quite a lot in some cartridges... while in others, it's virtually irrelevant. This should be easy to understand from a pure percentage of powder volume standpoint, but the more nuanced aspects of powder burn characteristics can be quite subtle.

It would also be prudent to apply an understanding of the variation in how rifles are setup in benchrest and F-Class. It is possible to get rifles to perform significantly better without the rule book standing in the way. For instance, are there brakes on F-Class rifles? I can assure you it is much easier to drive a rifle with a brake than it is one without. So while the performances in F-Class and benchrest are noteworthy... they do not directly translate to the world of tactical shooters and precision hunters.

This is to say, if F-class was allowed to use brakes, or other modern technology which allows the shooter to take every advantage... you might find those F-Class shooters agreeing that the things they think don't matter, actually do. After all, there is no consensus, even among them, on what matters and what doesn't. The pursuit of finite precision and accuracy is a deeply personal thing. I know for certain I'll not let someone tell me what "good enough" looks like. It is my decision, and mine alone. With expectations where mine are... I'm finding that it all matters, and the internet tends to be the last place I find answers.



-----------
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[John Glidewell]

I'm not trying to pick on Cortina. He seems like a good guy and I don't mean to make him a target, he's just a name someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

You guys are so awestruck by guys like him and you dream of doing what he does. That is your problem.

I do not do that, EVER.

I dream of what I will do to do it better than he does or "they" do.

Certain guys on this thread are vigorously defending the status quo, and for that reason you can never be better or advance. I truly feel sad for those of you.

If you are always chasing a winner, you are always behind him and can never be better.

Progress is made by people who go beyond what the crowds do or what the winners do.

You still have yet to answer legitimate questions about your credentials and shooting background. You have had this scale for 15 or so years, which means it has been available to us all, including the pros. However, none of them use it. So what have you actually accomplished with this scale and your better process? I have a difficult time believing a scale as accurate as you state would go unnoticed by the professionals in the industry for over 15 years. You have come across as bit arrogant here and refuse to offer any substance behind your conclusions. It comes down to credibility and you, right now, have none.

 

[John Glidewell]

I find it strange that there is no proper qualifier when discussing small powder increments and their respective changes in accuracy/precision.

I can tell you from experience that a tenth of a grain is quite a lot in some cartridges... while in others, it's virtually irrelevant. This should be easy to understand from a pure percentage of powder volume standpoint, but the more nuanced aspects of powder burn characteristics can be quite subtle.

It would also be prudent to apply an understanding of the variation in how rifles are setup in benchrest and F-Class. It is possible to get rifles to perform significantly better without the rule book standing in the way. For instance, are there brakes on F-Class rifles? I can assure you it is much easier to drive a rifle with a brake than it is one without. So while the performances in F-Class and benchrest are noteworthy... they do not directly translate to the world of tactical shooters and precision hunters.

This is to say, if F-class was allowed to use brakes, or other modern technology which allows the shooter to take every advantage... you might find those F-Class shooters agreeing that the things they think don't matter, actually do. After all, there is no consensus, even among them, on what matters and what doesn't. The pursuit of finite precision and accuracy is a deeply personal thing. I know for certain I'll not let someone tell me what "good enough" looks like. It is my decision, and mine alone. With expectations where mine are... I'm finding that it all matters, and the internet tends to be the last place I find answers.



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and how many people can actually shoot the difference? I know some can, but the average shooter cannot.

 

[orkan]

I know some can, but the average shooter cannot.

Which advice is more valuable?

1 - The advice from those that can.
2 - The advice from those that can not.

I'm reminded of an exercise that I've done with nearly every class I've instructed in. The shooters all eventually question their ability to drive their own rifle... so I shoot their rifles. Then, to dispel their myths about their capabilities, I send them each individually to shoot one of my rifles. They are shocked to see how in many instances, the groups and relation of that group to the center of POA when I shoot their rifles is only marginally better than their performances. The accuracy and precision they display with my rifle, is most often drastically better than their performances with their own rifles.

The constant barrage of the internet telling them what they don't need to do and what doesn't matter, has a cumulative effect. This a direct result of a serious disconnect between information gathering and experience. If they had the time to gain the appropriate experience, their confidence would not be in the position which allows bad information to be accepted at face value.

Curious, isn't it... that the justifications for what doesn't matter, is almost always financial in nature? Were this not so, everyone would simply have the most capable thing for each specific demand. The remaining justification is always time, which would be irrelevant if the shooter cared as much about shooting as they claimed... since the entire success in this discipline hinges on the bullet landing as favorably as it can.

I will not spend one singular second of effort trying to convince someone to care about the things that should be cared about. However, it's quite necessary for me to provide perspective that a great many things shooters are told to ignore on this very forum, should not be ignored if what they are asking of their performance behind a rifle is high enough. Conversely, any old thing and any old technique will do if what you're asking is low enough.

With the exception of very specifically pointed and well thought out questions directed specifically at me, that'll be all I have to say on this subject. I wish all of you great success and feel free to reach out if I can be of service.


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[tylerw02]

I didn't visit any internet forums for several years. During part of that time, I was a precision rifle instructor for a training company local to me. During that time, several of the students were convinced they "needed" this item or that item. Some where married to certain techniques. I asked them where they had gotten those ideas. Most of them said "Internet forums". Staying off the computer seems to simplify things when you are learning.

 

[Devildog]

Op I’ve had good luck with the rcbs charge master, it’s a little slower then more expensive units so I have two that I’ll run at the same time if I’m in a hurry. Is it the best no, but it’s affordable, easy to use and does a pretty good job.

We use to do the straw mod until someone on here started making a fitting you slid into the end of the drop tube that helps a bunch with over throws think he get 15-20 bucks or so for one it’s cheap.

When I create loads for my rifles I use the OCW method, the idea is you find the sweet spot in a node and if your a grain hi or low it has little impact on accuracy. my sd’s are normally below 10 and I have good results and most importantly I have fun reloading and shooting. If I was interested in shooting bug holes at 1000 yard I’d be on a different forum.

I hope you get what you want but sometimes the cost to benefits ratio is overlooked. Good luck in your decision.

 

[iceng]

@orkan make them shoot full weak side. They always feel weird, have to adjust their grip and cheek piece, etc.. they focus on the fundamentals because they don't wanna suck.

It's surprising how many people can shoot BETTER weak side because they do it properly.