Best ELR cartridge in standard LA

[Jackomason]

If you were to rebarrel your standard Long action in an attempt to create a budget ELR rifle what would you get and how would you configure it? I've seen some interesting talk of the 300 & 338s in both lapua and norma cases but clearly those are limited to X-large actions.

I was thinking maybe a 300 RUM with the left hand gain twist and launching some solids. My bergara will need to get rebarreled sooner or later and would like to play a little more at the mile + stuff.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

What distance are you thinking "ELR" is at for you?
Do you want to stick with simple reloading or are you willing to go complicated reloading...ie..fireforming, multi stage case work, etc etc?
Do you intend to single feed or run out of magazine?
What is the OAL of intended magazine?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I am facing this decision right now also. I have literally a 5 gallon bucket full of once fired 300 WIN brass. I'm thinking a 28 or 30 inch straight tube for a somewhat cheaper ELR training rig. With the 30 incher I could launch 230's at around 3,000 fps pretty easily I think. That would allow me to practice out to 2,000+ yards a bit cheaper.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have been shooting my .338LM out to 2445 yards. I have been using both Berger 300 Hybrids and Cutting edge 277's. I can load the 300's in my CIP mag but the 277's are single feed.

 

[Jackomason]

I am facing this decision right now also. I have literally a 5 gallon bucket full of once fired 300 WIN brass. I'm thinking a 28 or 30 inch straight tube for a somewhat cheaper ELR training rig. My 338 AX costs $2 a trigger pull.

With the 30 incher I could launch 230's at around 3,000 fps pretty easily I think. That would allow me to practice out to 2,000+ yards a bit cheaper. I just spoke with Gary Schneider today of Schneider barrels, he said a lot of people are doing the same thing.

I like the 300 wm and for a trainer it's good to have something simple, what do you think of the .284s for ELR? Do they hold their own 1500 -2000 yards? I ask cause I kinda like the idea of a 7-300 practical shooting the berger 195 eol. I'd be ok working 300 wm brass a little.

To answer Theis, I'd like the gun to be fully functional. Mainly cause my wife wouldn't understand. So that means mag length would be a must. I probably wouldn't go past about 28" with the barrel. And I don't want to use up case life and materials & barrel life before even start working up a load. But I'm willing to try something new. Just seems to me like the LA has more to offer than what's being used. We aren't shooting standard distances so why shoot a standard cartridge? That isn't to nullify the standard cartridges but just my reasoning to try something more exciting.... bigger....

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I like the 300 wm and for a trainer it's good to have something simple, what do you think of the .284s for ELR? Do they hold their own 1500 -2000 yards? I ask cause I kinda like the idea of a 7-300 practical shooting the berger 195 eol. I'd be ok working 300 wm brass a little.

To answer Theis, I'd like the gun to be fully functional. Mainly cause my wife wouldn't understand. So that means mag length would be a must. I probably wouldn't go past about 28" with the barrel. And I don't want to use up case life and materials & barrel life before even start working up a load. But I'm willing to try something new. Just seems to me like the LA has more to offer than what's being used. We aren't shooting standard distances so why shoot a standard cartridge? That isn't to nullify the standard cartridges but just my reasoning to try something more exciting.... bigger....

I have never owned a 7mm anything so I can't give any insight there.

 

[Switchbarrel]

I am really liking my 28 Nosler. At 85 gr. of RL33, I’m at ~3180 fps shooting the 195 Bergers. My barrel
is 30” & will easily do over 3200 but, I’m not trying to set any speed records. I’ve only tried shooting to
1800 yds though.

I don’t see it mentioned a lot (ever?) when talking about longer range cartridges but, the inherent accuracy with
the Nosler case is really good (think 6 Dasher-like).

Brass isn’t the cheapest but, I’ve been able to find the 28N or 26 Nosler “blemished” brass at relatively good prices & just expand the 26N neck to 28N.

-Rick

 

[Old Dude]

I bought a used 300WM. It's shooting pretty good right now but as I get better I am already thinking about the 7/300 combo. I have the brass and doing the neck would be easy. Not a lot of info on it though.

 

[Vargmat]

6,5x284 with a resonably fast twist barrel and Hornady ELD-M 147 grain pills. That would be awesome.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

My first pick would be a ,soon to be announced, 300 PRC (30-375) Bigger than a WM and works well in a magazine. I just got back from South Africa and used it on everything up to and including Eland. 212 ELD-X I shoot the same round in my 1K BR guns and they shoot 225's to 1/2 MOA at 1K when I do my part.
26" barrel will push 225's to 2900 FPS
That's the point where more speed starts to get expensive.

 

[IntoTransonic]

Hi,

What distance are you thinking "ELR" is at for you?
Do you want to stick with simple reloading or are you willing to go complicated reloading...ie..fireforming, multi stage case work, etc etc?
Do you intend to single feed or run out of magazine?
What is the OAL of intended magazine?

Sincerely,
Theis

Theis, as quoted above, gets to the direct point with what is ELR is to you, and asks some good questions that need to be addressed before anyone jumps into ELR shooting.

I agree with his point of view, but will add this one small caveat........ whatever your decision may end up being, pick a caliber that has quality brass. A lot of ELR issues begin with brass problems. Start of with good, no great brass and your ELR experience will be much more enjoyable.
Good luck and great shooting
Chris Schmidt
Tennessee

 

[steve123]

My first pick would be a ,soon to be announced, 300 PRC (30-375) Bigger than a WM and works well in a magazine. I just got back from South Africa and used it on everything up to and including Eland. 212 ELD-X I shoot the same round in my 1K BR guns and they shoot 225's to 1/2 MOA at 1K when I do my part.
26" barrel will push 225's to 2900 FPS
That's the point where more speed starts to get expensive.

That's great news!

What, about 80-81 grains of powder for the 225's?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

75-80 depending on the powder

 

[Fig]

I’m far, far from an expert, and this is merely my opinion. The forum is titled “ELR - Beyond 1000 Yards”, but to me ELR isn’t a distance or a cartridge.

I shoot to 1,200 yards all the time, and while that’s definitely Long Range, it isn’t “Extreme” in my book. When someone says Extreme Long Range the first thing that appears in my head is a bullet dropping below 1,100fps and going transonic. My definition of ELR would be exceeding the normal operating ballistic parameters of your rifle and load. That could be rimfire at 400 yards or a .300 WM at 1,600 yds.

Everything comes into play and everything matters. I completely get why so many at SH consider this the highest form of the art. I feel like when I’m shooting transsonic my percision rifle becomes a musket. Honestly, I feel like there is an element of random at extreme, subsonic distances that is really hard to overcome and get first round impacts. I suck at it, and I even suck at correcting at ELR distances. Maybe if I had a .338 I wouldn’t feel that way, but shooting 210s and under I feel like they must be tumbling, or knuckle balling or something, because once I pass that threshold it just seems random where they land (rarely on the steel).

Like everything it takes practice, and the only time I shoot that far is at matches. If I could shoot ELR all the time maybe I’d feel differently.

 

[steve123]

75-80 depending on the powder

I'm at a fairly stiff load of 79.5 of Retumbo in my 30-375 version with 225's. Sure would be nice to fireform this new version coming out vs necking down from 375!

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I've got head stamped 300 PRC brass. It's really going to happen. The new version is 10 years old now.

 

[steve123]

Keep me posted!

 

[Butch1]

I'm working on the same issue. I have a LA R700 in .270 that I plan on getting as much distance out of it without breaking the bank. I own a machine shop so all work will be done by mere in my shop. But deciding on which caliber is my biggest hurdle. Im down to 300WM or 300 Norma. Would love to see more info on the 300 PRC. Because I would love to be able to magazine feed.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

case 2.600"OAL
Rim .532"
case head .532"
shoulder 30 degree
neck length over .300"

 

[Butch1]

case 2.600"OAL
Rim .532"
case head .532"
shoulder 30 degree
neck length over .300"

Is this a Hornady case? What was its ballistics?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Yes this is a Hornady case. It will be introduced sometime this year. Ballistics? Kind of a broad question. Full house loads are 225's @2900 FPS This is going to sound counterintuitive on this site but the capacity is small enough to allow the use of faster powders which gives you tuning options.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Just a note on 7MM's. Back in the mid 90's , pre RUM, I did a series of cartridges based on the 404 Jefferies case. RUM = Imp 404 I shot a 7MM. Big behemoth of a rifle. More is better I thought. The only bullet we had was a custom 178. We shot it at 3400 FPS out of 30"+ barrels. Thanks to RWS for making the toughest brass in the world. I remember one trip to Wyoming shooting rockchucks. We could see forever but limited our shooting to 2000 meters and in. The reason- It was tough to range at that distance with a Swiss made Wild range finder and bullet impacts became difficult to see. Even on almost bare ground where a mouse couldn't hide. The 30's we could see, the 338's made a big splash.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Yes this is a Hornady case. It will be introduced sometime this year. Ballistics? Kind of a broad question. Full house loads are 225's @2900 FPS This is going to sound counterintuitive on this site but the capacity is small enough to allow the use of faster powders which gives you tuning options.

This sounds like the 300 win made over again with a better case design. Performance is almost identical.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

It has a definite edge over the WM. It's really closer to a 300 Wby than a WM in performance.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

It has a definite edge over the WM. It's really closer to a 300 Wby than a WM in performance.

Then how does it compare to the 300 Norma? Any advantage over it?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

It's not a Norma. Never was intended to compete with it. It a cost effective way to increase performance over a Win Mag. Only requires a barrel change. If you have a 338L then a Norma barrel makes perfect sense. If you have a standard size magnum it's an upgrade in performance unless you're shooting a RUM.

 

[LRShooter101]

TAG!

 

[Butch1]

Dave, When do you think this will be released? As far as being able to buy brass, reamers, and gauges?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Here's what I know . SAAMI accreditation is to happen this month. Product roll out I don't know but I'll try and find out. Reamer prints I can probably get now since I'm chambering for it. A side note . This round was submitted to SOCOM during PSR I as an alternative to the WM and Lapua. In 30 and 338. We all know that died in a pile which is too bad because it didn't get a serious review. At the time the cost break down went like this. You get 80% of the performance of a Lapua at 60% of the cost. As a taxpayer that made a lot of sense. As a shooter real world performance would have been more than adequate for all but a very very small percentage of engagements. There's always 50's for that.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I was looking at doing a 7/300 (7mm Practical to be specific).
The 300 PRC might be an interesting alternative to that, or something additional to try.
I should have an AXMC soon, so I could work on getting a barrel made for it to test out.

I'm assuming the brass uses the magnum boltface (like the .300WM), but is a modern style beltless case?
It might also be interesting to see if it is more efficient to neck it down to 7mm rather than it would be to start with a .300WM case.

A couple quick questions if you don't mind:
Are you going to be making rifles / barrels for it?
How does the 300 PRC respond to barrel lengths, specifically the options for 24", 26", 28" 30" is there kind of a minimum around that area or all good?
What is your opinion of the recoil from it vs a .300wm (with standard loadings)?

One of the reasons I was looking originally at the 7/300 is great ballistics, all the killing power for long range game, but soft enough recoil to put in a 10 pound rifle without a brake.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Long before we wildcatted this round I did some things with the 8X68S case. Tough RWS brass , no belt and the perfect capacity for 1K accuracy work in 30 cal. It worked well in 7MM also. My Hornady friend shot it for several years . 8x68S brass was getting hard to get then we switched to this case. Again a beltless case.
I will be building rifles and barrels if anyone is interested. I'm getting back into the retail market. My OEM work has gone away. Still have special projects from time to time but a guy needs walking around money.

To answer your questions. Because it is what I'd call a moderate capacity magnum I don't think there is much to gain by long barrels. 26" on a hunting rifle. I did 25" on mine. 28" on a long range gun unless it is a purpose built single shot ELR gun then another 2" won't hurt anything. It's as big as you can go and call it reasonably efficient. If 75-80 grs can be called efficient but that gives you powder options that larger cases don't .
In 7MM it would be a beast.
I use 72 grs. of 4831SC in my hunting rifle with 212's . I wasn't looking for speed. Just tuneable at moderate velocities.
Recoil - A WM to me comes back like a hatchet. This has a longer recoil impulse if that makes any sense. It's the same as comparing a Lapua to a Norma. Same performance but different recoil impulse.
Feel free to call me.
704- 864-7525

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I just got told brass will be available this fall.

 

[steve123]

I was looking at doing a 7/300 (7mm Practical to be specific).
The 300 PRC might be an interesting alternative to that, or something additional to try.
I should have an AXMC soon, so I could work on getting a barrel made for it to test out.

I'm assuming the brass uses the magnum boltface (like the .300WM), but is a modern style beltless case?
It might also be interesting to see if it is more efficient to neck it down to 7mm rather than it would be to start with a .300WM case.

A couple quick questions if you don't mind:
Are you going to be making rifles / barrels for it?
How does the 300 PRC respond to barrel lengths, specifically the options for 24", 26", 28" 30" is there kind of a minimum around that area or all good?
What is your opinion of the recoil from it vs a .300wm (with standard loadings)?

One of the reasons I was looking originally at the 7/300 is great ballistics, all the killing power for long range game, but soft enough recoil to put in a 10 pound rifle without a brake.

If I'm not mistaken 7mmLRM is pretty much a 7mm/375R but with a longer neck???

 

[Jackomason]

I do like the idea of heavy 7's, the more I look the more I'm starting to think that's the way to squeeze the most out of a long action. Now if there were a good way to shoot the 195 eol or 197 smk.... seems some people don't see the benefit over the 180s. The problem I see is keeping mag length while still being able to get them up to speed with a larger case.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Long before we wildcatted this round I did some things with the 8X68S case. Tough RWS brass , no belt and the perfect capacity for 1K accuracy work in 30 cal. It worked well in 7MM also. My Hornady friend shot it for several years . 8x68S brass was getting hard to get then we switched to this case. Again a beltless case.
I will be building rifles and barrels if anyone is interested. I'm getting back into the retail market. My OEM work has gone away. Still have special projects from time to time but a guy needs walking around money.

To answer your questions. Because it is what I'd call a moderate capacity magnum I don't think there is much to gain by long barrels. 26" on a hunting rifle. I did 25" on mine. 28" on a long range gun unless it is a purpose built single shot ELR gun then another 2" won't hurt anything. It's as big as you can go and call it reasonably efficient. If 75-80 grs can be called efficient but that gives you powder options that larger cases don't .
In 7MM it would be a beast.
I use 72 grs. of 4831SC in my hunting rifle with 212's . I wasn't looking for speed. Just tuneable at moderate velocities.
Recoil - A WM to me comes back like a hatchet. This has a longer recoil impulse if that makes any sense. It's the same as comparing a Lapua to a Norma. Same performance but different recoil impulse.
Feel free to call me.
704- 864-7525

I had one of your 30 BooBoo's at one time. It would stack 180 grain accubonds into a hole at 2900 fps. I should never have sold it.

 

[.30kal]

It's not a Norma. Never was intended to compete with it. It a cost effective way to increase performance over a Win Mag. Only requires a barrel change. If you have a 338L then a Norma barrel makes perfect sense. If you have a standard size magnum it's an upgrade in performance unless you're shooting a RUM.

What's the adv/disadv over a 30 Nosler, which was also billed as a non-belted improve over 300 WM? Will the barrel life be on par with a 300 WM?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

The internet connection died yesterday as I reached for the post reply button.
Barrel life is directly related to speed/powder charge. More means shorter barrel life. You can't fool Mother Nature. Neither the 30 Nosler or the PRC will get the same barrel life as the WM. Close but less.
Less costly brass.
.532" diameter VS .550" Absolutely no issues getting the PRC to feed in any configuration.
Rule #1 in my shop is don't do anything to make the phone ring.

 

[Jackomason]

But really 2900fps shouldn't be too hard on barrels, I'd be willing to give the PRC a go if it's backed by a large manufacturer like hornady. And running it in a 26" tube would still make it a half decent Elk gun.

Defiantly keep us posted! Seems like it may just be the best fit!

 

[BountyHunter]

Dave,

Is this the 30 HSM just in a different package?

 

[Milepost]

Although I think that the 300 PRC will be a nice compromise for a long range hunting and a 2000 yard ELR platform I would still choose the 300 RUM or an Edge version for target only.

BTW - ADG is now making brass for the RUM cartridges.

 

[ShermanR]

Dave....I am very interested in this cartridge Could you send me a reamer print please. I spoke to you a few years back about my 30/374 version....Rich Sherman

 

[ShermanR]

30/375 version

 

[ELR researcher]

If you were to rebarrel your standard Long action in an attempt to create a budget ELR rifle what would you get and how would you configure it? I've seen some interesting talk of the 300 & 338s in both lapua and norma cases but clearly those are limited to X-large actions.

I was thinking maybe a 300 RUM with the left hand gain twist and launching some solids. My bergara will need to get rebarreled sooner or later and would like to play a little more at the mile + stuff.

Bit late to be asking but what's the bolt face of your Bergara, .473 or .532 (which cartridge are you currently shooting in the "doner" rifle)?

 

[Jackomason]

Bit late to be asking but what's the bolt face of your Bergara, .473 or .532 (which cartridge are you currently shooting in the "doner" rifle)?

I'm running a 7mm mag, so that would be the .532. What are your thoughts?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Dave,

Is this the 30 HSM just in a different package?

Hey Herman how you doing?
Yep it finally come s out of the shadows

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Dave....I am very interested in this cartridge Could you send me a reamer print please. I spoke to you a few years back about my 30/374 version....Rich Sherman

Rich

Call Dave Manson 1-810-953-0732
He has the prints and has made all the reamers I used over the years for this cartridge.

 

[ELR researcher]

I'm running a 7mm mag, so that would be the .532. What are your thoughts?

As Milepost mentioned, a 338 Edge or one of their variants would work. See info on the Edge and the Edge +P (the chamber is the same but the throating is different) at http://www.defensiveedge.net/index.php/338-edge Also, besides ADG offering 338 Edge brass (http://atlasdg.com/product/338-edge/), Bertram is also being imported thru these folks - https://bertrambrass.com/product/338-edge-unprimed-brass-100-count/ (ignore the photo, not the actual brass).

 

[Butch1]

As Milepost mentioned, a 338 Edge or one of their variants would work. See info on the Edge and the Edge +P (the chamber is the same but the throating is different) at http://www.defensiveedge.net/index.php/338-edge Also, besides ADG offering 338 Edge brass (http://atlasdg.com/product/338-edge/), Bertram is also being imported thru these folks - https://bertrambrass.com/product/338-edge-unprimed-brass-100-count/ (ignore the photo, not the actual brass).

Thanks for the info on the brass. I didnt realize that Bertram offered as many options as they do. I'll be ordering some 7SAUM soom

 

[DIBBS]

This is interesting discussion. I'm currently dabbling with "my" version of ELR 1K plus with a 7mm RM / 162 Amaxes and a 300 WM with 210's. I've shot out to 1640 with these, and yes I would like to stretch it further. However I also look at it from the standpoint of "economy" barrel life/components etc. Yes somewhat mutually exclusive if you really want to reach waaaay out there with the best signature and spot your hits and misses. That being said perhaps this will be a logical step up from either of my above calibers when it's time to rebarrel.

 

[BountyHunter]

Hey Herman how you doing?
Yep it finally come s out of the shadows

Dave,

Doing well. Still fighting the knee replacement. You took 3rd in HG at 2016 Nationals at Cool Acres with this cartridge didn't you? You were shooting the newer Hornady bullets too if I remember.