I do the same with all my rifles. I like an sg of 2.+ have run up to 3.6 in bergers with no trouble and 1/4 Moa at 100 and great splash at the target
Best ELR Rifle Info
- Thread starter Jlawsonb16
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. My buddies 375 CT 1-7 didn’t like the Hornady 390 but we expected it.
Litz says in one of his books that over spinning bullets adversely affects accuracy, and I believe him. Look at the twist BR shooters use.
Only when your shooting shorter distances like 1000 yards for tightest groups possable on paper
If you spin a bullet super fast like a 200 grain 308 bullet at 1:6 twist. Yes but consider all the guys that shoot for AB were using 1:7 twist 400 grain 375 cal bullets to shoot out past 3000 yards. So unless ypur spinning a bullet to insane twist rates i would say no it only increases bc ,stability and those to things some times help accuracy.
The Juggers use to be my go to bullet for 308 win. Good thing they have a thick jacket w 3.6 SG.
The 1-7 is geared for the solids, they should also offer a 1-10 for cup and core bullets.
To bad you can't split the difference. a 1:9 should allow you to run most solids and not tear up cup and core bullets. Free bore would be a choice, I decided to go long FB for the A-tips and going to test a couple different solids.
"Beware the man who has one gun"
That may have been true 50 years ago. But these days, the guy with only one gun is the guy who doesn't bother to check his zero on his hand-me-down Savage 270 before deer season IME. Every "gun guy" has several rifles these days.
I would call A-tip's maybe not junk but 99 percent of all pro shooters do not use lead core bullets at ko2m...
Every thing hornady makes and designs is junk but people love swallowing there load
I would love to know the why behind this statement.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I would simply like the information
Just grab a few bullets from the red box and start measuring. You’ll see how inconsistent they are
I have done that. The amax is an extremely consistent bullet. Their hollow tipped bullets measure all over the place if you try to measure off the tip to the base. However, if you use a comparator on your caliper and measure from the ogive, they are extremely precise.
Every hornady bullet I’ve measured has been inconsistent. Using two comparators, amaxes included. Jme
Things may have changed cause I haven’t bought a red box in years and don’t plan on changing that
Things may have changed cause I haven’t bought a red box in years and don’t plan on changing that
When a company uses lies and hype in marketing compounded with taking advantage of the un educated consumers. Its real bad. It started with creed advertising and just keeps one going. There bullets shoot ok but dont transition for shit.
Man go with 375 Cheytac.. It has won the King of 2 Mile more.,In fact just this year,2023 it did it again.So where was the Big Borfes..Not in the Winners Circle.And when 10 guys all shot the 416 Barrett furnished by Barrett.
Shane and Jac lyn Bryan atre always in the tip 5 ELR matches and they shoot 375 Cheytac with Hornady 390gr A-Tips.
SDo you wont out grow it.You may be like most of us and want a bigger 4r16 or 458 Vestal but its not necessary
If you know what you’re doing and have shot a lot past 1000 or better 1500 yards already AND you have a place to shoot regularly, sure jump straight up to Cheytac.
If you’re just starting out I’d say be careful about thinking you can bypass the learning curve and just jump in w a Cheytac and start banging shot at 2 miles. I mean you can but the ammo is costly and the recoil can make bad habits.
Also 375 CT requires reloading. There is zero regularly available factory ammo.
If you do go CT, I suggest the desert tech. For a million reasons that have been described all over the hide.
If you’re just starting out I’d say be careful about thinking you can bypass the learning curve and just jump in w a Cheytac and start banging shot at 2 miles. I mean you can but the ammo is costly and the recoil can make bad habits.
Also 375 CT requires reloading. There is zero regularly available factory ammo.
If you do go CT, I suggest the desert tech. For a million reasons that have been described all over the hide.
The 375CT is a great round. I had 5 out of 8 hits at 3085 this last weekend at a local match. I am not a fan of DTA but that's me from what I see they are great rifles. I shoot a Cadex with a 36in 1-7.5 twist heavy K&P barrel. I load N570 at 131.6 with Cutting Edge 400 gr Lazers and have a AVG FPS of 3068 sd 4.6. You could look at the new Swiss P round if you don't reload.
I actually found the recoil of a 375 really amplified any flaws I had in my shooting form and helped me to correct them. I do agree you need time to learn making these long shots, everything matters.
IMO reloading is a prerequisite for ELR.
Argentina BB gun, kids stuffJust build a 300 Weatherby Magnum and be a man!
Hell they havent fixed the cheytac issues why would they fix the enabelr
Can somebody who knows about this please elaborate further for me and is it any different than Bertram?
I have noticed, across 3-4 chambers, that my new brass measures (to the index point half way down the shoulder what’s that called again? The datum?) about 10-12 thou shorter than fired brass
If I unscrew my 2013 VIERSCO FL sizing die so it just bumps the shoulder 2-3 thou, those cases can chamber a little bit tight and bolt lift can be hard with a medium pressure load, I presume from undersized brass. So, to bump the shoulder minimally I’m unscrewing the die and not sizing the body enough, I think.
Is that what we’re talking about here? If so, I think my pending custom WTC die, based on fired brass, will solve the problem.
Also, this explains my premature case head separations (10% of them or so by 8-9 firings)
Looking for insights. Thanks guys.
I have noticed, across 3-4 chambers, that my new brass measures (to the index point half way down the shoulder what’s that called again? The datum?) about 10-12 thou shorter than fired brass
If I unscrew my 2013 VIERSCO FL sizing die so it just bumps the shoulder 2-3 thou, those cases can chamber a little bit tight and bolt lift can be hard with a medium pressure load, I presume from undersized brass. So, to bump the shoulder minimally I’m unscrewing the die and not sizing the body enough, I think.
Is that what we’re talking about here? If so, I think my pending custom WTC die, based on fired brass, will solve the problem.
Also, this explains my premature case head separations (10% of them or so by 8-9 firings)
Looking for insights. Thanks guys.
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My A-tips shoot lights out and for the cost and the BC and the possibility of hunting with them, I'm a complete devotee.
I shoot the following calibers/bullet combos and could not be happier:
223 AR15 55 Sierra BK for short/intermediate range varmints
223 bolt 75 ELD - a superb round
260 140 ELD
7mm RM 162 ELD
308 175 ELD
338 LM 285 ELD
375 CT 390 ATIP
50 BMG 750 AMAX (ATIP)
Everybody's results differ, but as I say, for the money and the BC, I think they are hard to beat and I've worked loads up for each of them that shoot like a house on fire.
I shoot the following calibers/bullet combos and could not be happier:
223 AR15 55 Sierra BK for short/intermediate range varmints
223 bolt 75 ELD - a superb round
260 140 ELD
7mm RM 162 ELD
308 175 ELD
338 LM 285 ELD
375 CT 390 ATIP
50 BMG 750 AMAX (ATIP)
Everybody's results differ, but as I say, for the money and the BC, I think they are hard to beat and I've worked loads up for each of them that shoot like a house on fire.
If you don't follow recommendations and over spin them they can have issues but that's basically it. @badassgunworks saying they don't transition for shit is him just talking out his ass like usual.
I believe I still have the most recorded impacts at 3300 yards or over in competition, all of them with A-Tips.
When someone has success with something he likes (tuners for example), he makes posts yelling from the mountain top about how that "proves" whatever it is at the moment he likes.
When someone such as yourself has success with something he doesn't like (A-Tips in this instance), he never mentions it.
When Litz's work agrees with what he likes, he uses that as talking points here. When Litz's work doesn't agree with what he likes, he tells us how he knows more than the literal rocket scientist with actual test equipment.
One might call that a pattern.
mojavejim: can you share more about why you're not a fan of the AI AX50ELR in .416B? I've got an AI AX50ELR and have been considering getting a .416 barrel for it for the next step up from my custom .338LM, but I'd like to learn more about your experience.
416 Barrett is really finicky to load for, can't wait for the cheytac bolt that's supposed to be offered.
Haven't tried RL50, but have used H50BMG, VV20N29 & SW50BMG, AT V4, AMP every reload (only get 4-5 firing on Barrett brass before neck split), weighed primers to .002gr. Best is cheep Shooters World BMG with an ES of 64 with 36 rounds for SWULR comp. Pushing 500gn A-tips 2900-2960. They come apart over 3000. Bartlein barrel gain twist 8.75 - 8 36". Ammo stored in ice chest , even tried double chests once.
Probably the brass is my issue, bought 200 pieces weight sorted to 2-3 gr difference. Haven't wanted to spend $$$ for custom brass.
It's an impressive round but the ES's are my problem, I thought I was a good reloader before the 416B. Still finish well at comps, with a couple 50% runs at the longest (3085) target, but trying to watch relay speed trends with labradar & adjusting on the fly take some fun out of it. Most relays I'll have 1 -2 rounds 50+fps off randomly.
My 338LM in comparison will have ES's in the low teens.
Probably the brass is my issue, bought 200 pieces weight sorted to 2-3 gr difference. Haven't wanted to spend $$$ for custom brass.
It's an impressive round but the ES's are my problem, I thought I was a good reloader before the 416B. Still finish well at comps, with a couple 50% runs at the longest (3085) target, but trying to watch relay speed trends with labradar & adjusting on the fly take some fun out of it. Most relays I'll have 1 -2 rounds 50+fps off randomly.
My 338LM in comparison will have ES's in the low teens.
I see several potential issues
CCI primers #35? Those will never get good ES bc too inconsistent ignition. Need RWS, only one source: Dale Arenson Ten-X accuracy. Going for $1 each these days.
Twist is way to fast for the 500 A-tip, that's why they’re flying apart. 12 twist or thereabouts would be ideal something like start 12.0 with gain up to 11.25 or thereabouts if you’re into GT, or just go with 11.5.
Early Barrett brass made by PPU, or current RWS made? I’d be shocked if RWS necks were splitting. Like shocked esp if being properly annealed. Unless chamber neck specs too wide. See: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/416-barrett-ammo.6851691/
I run RWS brass/primers for my 50. Massive difference in SD. Virtually eliminates vertical dispersion at distance. I measured internal case capacity of 20 RWS “50 Browning” cases and the standard deviation in grains of water was like 0.2 SD! It was like they were made in the heavens, the internal consistency was so good. I have never seen anything near as consistent in internal volume. It beat the pants off Lapua 50 BMG, SD for those was like .4. Respectable for sure (that means 95% of the Lapua are +/- 0.8), but RWS wins by a long shot.
Before I fixed my velocity consistency issue by going to RWS primers, I also was weighing the CCI primers to try to address the inconsistency. It didn’t make a damn bit of difference. Those primers just suck balls. And bills. I.E., $ bills trying to get the consistency you expect.
CCI primers #35? Those will never get good ES bc too inconsistent ignition. Need RWS, only one source: Dale Arenson Ten-X accuracy. Going for $1 each these days.
Twist is way to fast for the 500 A-tip, that's why they’re flying apart. 12 twist or thereabouts would be ideal something like start 12.0 with gain up to 11.25 or thereabouts if you’re into GT, or just go with 11.5.
Early Barrett brass made by PPU, or current RWS made? I’d be shocked if RWS necks were splitting. Like shocked esp if being properly annealed. Unless chamber neck specs too wide. See: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/416-barrett-ammo.6851691/
I run RWS brass/primers for my 50. Massive difference in SD. Virtually eliminates vertical dispersion at distance. I measured internal case capacity of 20 RWS “50 Browning” cases and the standard deviation in grains of water was like 0.2 SD! It was like they were made in the heavens, the internal consistency was so good. I have never seen anything near as consistent in internal volume. It beat the pants off Lapua 50 BMG, SD for those was like .4. Respectable for sure (that means 95% of the Lapua are +/- 0.8), but RWS wins by a long shot.
Before I fixed my velocity consistency issue by going to RWS primers, I also was weighing the CCI primers to try to address the inconsistency. It didn’t make a damn bit of difference. Those primers just suck balls. And bills. I.E., $ bills trying to get the consistency you expect.
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It's the current RWS brass from RUAG I believe, twist rate is for solids but thought I'd play with the A' tips to learn for less cost. Barrel was chambered & bought from Mile High with rifle. Haven't tried RWS primers, had 1500 CCI, thought about having RWS 50BMG brass worked over for 416B but some friends have done it for about $14 each and have had the same results with ES that I have. Just about everyone that I shoot ELR with has just moved away from the 416B. So if it works good for you, great. But I just dabble with ELR, PRS & hunting is more important to me until I get to old & can only lay on my belly. That's why I say that I'd like that CheyTac bolt for the AI, have some Peterson brass waiting and not having to dump 170-175gr would be a bonus. BTW I'm not the only one that was running A tips with an 8 twist, bolt lift is kinda heavy @ 2900 anyway.
brianf I agree with you on the RWS, been using it for many years with 300WM, it's almost to pretty to use, usually all my calibers are chosen with Lapua or RWS brass available.
Thanks for the info, probably try some RWS primers, have a cert for cutting edge I need to cash in also.
brianf I agree with you on the RWS, been using it for many years with 300WM, it's almost to pretty to use, usually all my calibers are chosen with Lapua or RWS brass available.
Thanks for the info, probably try some RWS primers, have a cert for cutting edge I need to cash in also.
I have 2000 RWS primers on hand. If you’re near SLC, let’s load some up on my dime and give it a go. We can shoot 2 miles 50 minutes from my house. Just an option.
Thanks for the offer, I just went though SLC a couple weeks ago coming back from the Montana Unlimiteds, probably won't make it up that way until Feb. for the hunt expo. The ELR group that I shoot with just got going again after several months off, so I'll probably get some before Dec. & try them out. I would imagine there would be a lot of area west of town for some ELR action. I have a vacation cabin in Southern Utah east of Zion that I play around in also. I actually have my 50 barrel there because it's not allowed in Cali. But there is also some good ELR areas in Cali or Mojave desert in particular. I know ELR & Budget don't co-exist but the A tips @ a buck or so work really well for me, I also like the splash they make on the mile target. You can see your impacts at a mile helps your wind call. I'm also the only one that mag feeds, get the wind & run the bolt.
Anyway thanks for the info on the primers & good shooting.
Anyway thanks for the info on the primers & good shooting.
Yes 10 guys shot Barrett furnished 416 prototypes, 3 of them made the finals and one of them finished in the number 2 spot (me) . What no one knows is those of us that shot the Barretts had only had those rifles in our possession for less than 2 months and started with a totally blank slate with a factory rifle that tips the scales close to 10 pounds under most of the other weapons there and ran them magazine fed. Any other matches we had attended was collecting data to try to make them competitive against purpose built ELR rigs. My 416 Hellfire that won KO2M last year also made the top 10 (#7) with a shooter behind the rifle that had never fired it prior to the match.
Whether someone builds a 375CT, 416 Barrett, 416 Hellfire , 375 Hellfire ,460 Steyr, 416 Stroker , it's all going to boil down to the wind gods and your time spent making the gun shoot . Fundamentals and perfect ammo is what wins matches along with reading the conditions while you're on the line.
Bigger bullet also equals bigger splash if you miss and at 3000 yards in shit mirage that splash means everything , but with bigger bullets also comes bigger recoil and more punishment from gun and more dollars per round. It basically boils down to what you want to spend and accomplish consistently. Any of the calibers listed is capable of winning matches on any given day.
The 3 of us shooting the Barrett supplied 416s at KO2M that made the finals were all using CCI35 primers , RWS/Warner brass and RL50 with Cutting Edge Lazers. I had an ES of 9.9fps across 19 rounds with an SD of 6fps . I know RWS primers are supposed to be more consistent but I went with sorted cci35s and they've been excellent in this platform. I'm convinced brass prep and consistent neck tension has as much to do with velocity mitigation as anything , it's put me in the top 2 at KO2M the last 2 years.
ES of 9.9 w SD of 6.6 doesn’t make any sense statistically.
+/- 2SD will give not the ES but about 95% of it and in this case 95% of the ES would be 6.6*2*2
Which would be 26.4
So something is off here
If the SD of 6.6 is real that’s way better than I could ever get out of RWS brass 750 AMAX and CCI 35 primers.
All that changed with RWS primers
Weighing primers doesn’t make any logical sense because the mass of the combustibles in the primer is dwarfed by the mass of the metal so youre sorting based on differences in cup weight
+/- 2SD will give not the ES but about 95% of it and in this case 95% of the ES would be 6.6*2*2
Which would be 26.4
So something is off here
If the SD of 6.6 is real that’s way better than I could ever get out of RWS brass 750 AMAX and CCI 35 primers.
All that changed with RWS primers
Weighing primers doesn’t make any logical sense because the mass of the combustibles in the primer is dwarfed by the mass of the metal so youre sorting based on differences in cup weight
The strings are all still on the magnetospeed archived , I know the ES was 9 fps , whether or not the weight sorting of the primers had any effect or not they worked, and are still working well enough to put the rifle on the podium at King. Statistically it's cleaning targets and thats all that counts in the end, and the groups at 2000 yards don't lie. 2 five round groups at 1985 yards last weekend and the largest has 7" of vertical dispersion. The attached image was 5 rounds at 1751 yards 3 days before I left for King of 2 Miles..... Something is working.
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I’m a statistician and I’m trying to think of a scenario where that’s even possible to have an ES that low compared to the SD... That being said, larger cartridges are much easier to get lower SDs. So I’m not surprised the SD is that low.
