Rifle Scopes Best FFP Scope on Sale to use alongside RDS- 18" 6.5G General Purpose

[6.5G]

Hi All!

I've learned enough about optics from lurking here to know that this budget bracket is almost blasphemous but I am in grad school so I have hard limits.

I've got a 18" Grendel upper which has a theoretical effective range of around 1k. I'd like for the rifle to have an optic setup that covers the cartridge's span of utility. I respect that the more specific one is, the better suggestions one receives. However I would like to ring steel at 1k as my #1 use, do 3-gun, and press the rifle into a defensive role if needed. Remember I am a grad student and most grad students don't have 1 rifle, let alone several that are purpose-built.

I've read advice on magnification for the 6.5G for different uses, and seen folks with red-dots on an offset mount (including SF folks linked to from SH), but rarely have I seen discussions that take offset RDS into account when discussing magnification, especially for 6.5G specifically. I am skeptical of the idea that true 1x LPVO are as forgiving as red-dots under pressure based on experiences with a Strike Eagle, which I know is not a solid basis. But this and having more mag for 1k is why I am more curious about a combo of 2 optics as a system.

There are 3 optics that seem to be in my budget with FFP christmas tree reticles, mil adjustments, and okay glass according to SH (with sparse commentary on option 3). Because of the christmas tree reticle I don't expect to be dialing so slightly mushy turrets are not a problem, and the capped turrents on the Nitro is okay I guess.

I would prefer to go through cameralandny for reasons that most people here know (best prices, best customer service of any company that I know of, site sponsor). Options:

$269- Athlon Argos 6-24 APMR FFP IR MIL [lifetime warranty]
$199- Bushnell Nitro 2.5-10 Deploy MIL (no illumination) [30 year warranty]
$279-309- Primary Arms SLx 4-14 FFP IR R-Grid 2B (not at cameralandny) [3 year warranty]

Any other ideas at or under 300? I've read on SH the vortex offerings at this range do not have better glass. I want a Horus-style reticle and illumination in FFP. Mil-quad SWFA in 3-15 might have better glass, but then again I have heard folks say the Argos is better.

What is the right magnification if you assume the red-dot is carrying some of the load? Will that make 6-24 comfortable thereby putting me at the best value scope in the lineup based on SH opinions? Is all this psycho heavy to put on an AR?

I know Doug bought the entire stock of the Nitros a while back, and when the rebate was available they were selling like hotcakes. I am disappointed that I haven't seen reviews of the optic here when I am guessing a lot of folks have one. It seems so promising. However, I really wish it had illumination.

Thank you for reading!

 

[EnsEntium]

Hi All!

I've learned enough about optics from lurking here to know that this budget bracket is almost blasphemous but I am in grad school so I have hard limits.

I've got a 18" Grendel upper which has a theoretical effective range of around 1k. I'd like for the rifle to have an optic setup that covers the cartridge's span of utility. I respect that the more specific one is, the better suggestions one receives. However I would like to ring steel at 1k as my #1 use, do 3-gun, and press the rifle into a defensive role if needed. Remember I am a grad student and most grad students don't have 1 rifle, let alone several that are purpose-built.

I've read advice on magnification for the 6.5G for different uses, and seen folks with red-dots on an offset mount (including SF folks linked to from SH), but rarely have I seen discussions that take offset RDS into account when discussing magnification, especially for 6.5G specifically. I am skeptical of the idea that true 1x LPVO are as forgiving as red-dots under pressure based on experiences with a Strike Eagle, which I know is not a solid basis. But this and having more mag for 1k is why I am more curious about a combo of 2 optics as a system.

There are 3 optics that seem to be in my budget with FFP christmas tree reticles, mil adjustments, and okay glass according to SH (with sparse commentary on option 3). Because of the christmas tree reticle I don't expect to be dialing so slightly mushy turrets are not a problem, and the capped turrents on the Nitro is okay I guess.

I would prefer to go through cameralandny for reasons that most people here know (best prices, best customer service of any company that I know of, site sponsor). Options:

$269- Athlon Argos 6-24 APMR FFP IR MIL [lifetime warranty]
$199- Bushnell Nitro 2.5-10 Deploy MIL (no illumination) [30 year warranty]
$279-309- Primary Arms SLx 4-14 FFP IR R-Grid 2B (not at cameralandny) [3 year warranty]

Any other ideas at or under 300? I've read on SH the vortex offerings at this range do not have better glass. I want a Horus-style reticle and illumination in FFP. Mil-quad SWFA in 3-15 might have better glass, but then again I have heard folks say the Argos is better.

What is the right magnification if you assume the red-dot is carrying some of the load? Will that make 6-24 comfortable thereby putting me at the best value scope in the lineup based on SH opinions? Is all this psycho heavy to put on an AR?

I know Doug bought the entire stock of the Nitros a while back, and when the rebate was available they were selling like hotcakes. I am disappointed that I haven't seen reviews of the optic here when I am guessing a lot of folks have one. It seems so promising. However, I really wish it had illumination.

Thank you for reading!

You might not get much of a response based on your price range. If you'd like to read more about options in a number of price ranges I suggest you go to Optics Thoughts by Ilya (@koshkin) who is respected around here for his opinion on optics:

The DLO Recommendations: Riflescopes » OpticsThoughts

If you are looking for something reliable to dial look at the SWFA SS 10x or if you can afford it SWFA SS 3-9. The Vortex Diamondback Tactical 4-16 is another option.

 

[mi223]

I will second a swfa fixed 10x.

 

[koshkin]

You might not get much of a response based on your price range. If you'd like to read more about options in a number of price ranges I suggest you go to Optics Thoughts by Ilya (@koshkin) who is respected around here for his opinion on optics:

The DLO Recommendations: Riflescopes » OpticsThoughts

If you are looking for something reliable to dial look at the SWFA SS 10x or if you can afford it SWFA SS 3-9. The Vortex Diamondback Tactical 4-16 is another option.

That needs updating.
I'll update the category he is looking for tonight.

Generally, if probably get a fixed SWFA in his situation, unless he find a good deal on a used 3-9x42 SS.

ILya

 

[dcmdon]

With most of the Nikon stuff now half off, I was able to pick up one of their "tactical" models for my Kidd .22. Its a mil/mil scope and seems very well made. In a very quick box test at home with a laser bore sighter, the scope appears to return to zero well. The glass is surprisingly clear. It is second focal plane and does not have a zero stop.

Its .$350 at Optics planet but only $200 at Scopelist.

Nikon M-TACTICAL Riflescope 3-12X42SF MATTE MK1-MRAD, Black, 16520 — Objective Lens Diameter: 42 mm, Magnification: 3 - 12 x, Reticle: MK1-MRAD, Tube Diameter: 30 mm — 16520

Nikon M-TACTICAL Riflescope 3-12X42SF MATTE MK1-MRAD, Black, — Objective Lens Diameter: 42 mm, Magnification: 3 - 12 x, Reticle: MK1-MRAD, Tube Diameter: 30 mm

www.opticsplanet.com

 

[6.5G]

As a lurker at SH for years, I have learned the line, "get a fixed SWFA SS" as I have learned and applied "Miata is Always the Answer" on auto forums.

However, I am wondering whether the conventional wisdom needs an update based on the experiences of folks in this very forum after researching in earnest about what people say in this price range rather than dismissing it and moving on. Similarly, since you bring up Vortex' I think their monopoly on budget reccomendations is old hat:

I have to say that these new turrets on the latest Argos BTR are at a whole nother level, even better than my SWFA 3-15!!!
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-ffp-ir-mil-basic-review.6888123/post-7067774

I can say that my Argos BTR scopes have better glass than my SWFA's do/did, I sold most of them.
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ical-vs-athlon-argos-btr.6947043/post-7782766

I was really surprised when we were shooting our 22 rimfires at the 400M turkey which was painted black. Argos BTR at 15x vs SWFA 3-15 at 15x. Three of us confirmed, the splats were easier to see with the Argos, same splats were very hard to discern with the SWFA.
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ical-vs-athlon-argos-btr.6947043/post-7784466

Had the Vortex DB tactical before the Argos. Dumped the Vortex for the Argoe and am glad I did. Just my opinion.
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ical-vs-athlon-argos-btr.6947043/post-7782328

I personally liked the Argos better than the diamondback.. but I feel if your taking a step above diamondback then I would go vortex .. but since you want ffp I think Argos would be a bit better imo.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/athlon-argos-vs-vortex-diamondback.6982145/post-8244242

I have both and would buy another Athlon. I am a fan of vortex but the diamond back not so much.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/athlon-argos-vs-vortex-diamondback.6982145/post-8244742

Paint me in the minority, but it isn’t 1980.
A fixed 10x HD SWFA is like looking through a straw with a 10’ FOV at 100.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/i-hesitate-to-ask-but-here-goes.6924751/post-7501054

At least 20 people on SH I could link have pointed out that the reticles are outdated on SWFA's offerings as well.

The circuit board in the F-35 controlling its engines, lighting, fuel and navigation systems are made in china. It is US companies who are responsible for China's manufacturing capacity. The Ford Focus, Honda Fit, Buick Envision, and Cadillac CT6 are manufactured in China and imported to the US. What I am saying is that it systematic, rather than heuristic (case-by-case rather than sweeping) thinking about country of origin and quality might be more accurate. SH members with experience across SWFA (Japan), Vortex (Philippines), and Athlon (China) are rating Athlon favorably.

As an aside, there are at least 100 threads with dozens of responses each about budget optics so I am not worried about this not being a topic of interest to a contingent at SH. To quote again:

What's this whole, "I know you guys don't deal with low dollar optics" business? I am 99% sure that 99% of us did not start out our precision rifle shooting with a 3000.00 S&B.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/i-hesitate-to-ask-but-here-goes.6924751/post-7500747

 

[6.5G]

EnsEntium,

If you are looking for something reliable to dial look at the SWFA SS 10x

Because of the christmas tree reticle I don't expect to be dialing so slightly mushy turrets are not a problem

dcmdon,
That Nikon is SFP

 

[thehun]

I'd grab a Nikon FFP MRAD scope, used to run a SWFA Fixed 10X Mil-Quad side focus on my AI...great optic for the money....

I have no experience with the Bushnell Nitro line...but they are made in Korea...and I have been thoroughly impressed with the LRTS line of optics from Bushnell...

 

[gconnoyer]

Go with an SWFA.

The rest have so many features crammed into a shitty low price point that you wont get anything worth wasting the money on.

Dont worry so much about zoom range or cool features because at $250ish range (ESPECIALLY an FFP), the glass wont be good, the turrets and tracking wont be good, the illumination wont work right or will bleed everywhere.
Since you quoted about cars.... would you rather have a $5000 Miata or a $5000 Ferrari..

a 10 or 12x SWFA will be money well spent.

Sincerely,
-someone who started shooting Millets, Barska, BSA, Nikon, Bushnell, you name it.

 

[thehun]

^^^ I never had an issue shooting the SWFA 10X from 50yards on...my AI was NOT a hunting rifle...

 

[bobke]

Memory tells me that an ELR shooter a year or two ago shot three straight at 1500 yds with a fixed power 10X/HD SWFA and a 7STW cartridge. Hope I have that correct. Know he had to depend on dialing and return to zero reliably to train for and execute those shots. That has to say something for SWFA, and I believe Frank is a proponent of the 5-20x50 as a reliable backup for his training classes. If that’s not good enough, Ilya Koshkin is a pretty reliable source of optic advice here and elsewhere, and has good comments to offer on the SWFA lines.

If you’re insistent on the Athlon, spend your money and move on. I have several SWFA’s and more Bushnell LRTS/LRHS’s on my Grendel’s and they serve well to distance. If you really want to hit and return to zero reliably, best optical quality and turrets will benefit you, as 1k is nearing the practical limit of the Grendel, unless you handload.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

That Athlon Argos has turned out to be a decent scope. I have It on a 6.5CM AR.

 

[Sirshredalot]

I have been very impressed with my nitro 5-20 for the money...more than my viper hs lr.

I bought it on a black friday sale and have been happy everytime i have looked through it....i do with the turrets where exposed though.

Its no $2k scope, but does the trick very well.

Shred

 

[koshkin]

Out of curiosity: you said you are in grad school. What are you studying?

Every once in a while I re-visit the idea of "If I could only have one" which usually converged on a 18" barreled Grendel as a really nice general purpose rifle and that is kinda what you are trying to do. Most of it is a little beyond your budget at the moment, but I go through a lot of my though process there.

If I could only have one…. » OpticsThoughts

Firearms: If I could have only one, First Scenario » OpticsThoughts

Normally, my Grendel has a 3-15x or similar scope on it and an offset red dot, but tight now I am using it to test Vortex' 1-10x24 Razor Gen 3 and it might stay there.

Given that you are trying to do a bunch of different things with the rifle without reconfiguring it all the time, I would suggest not saddling it with something large and unwieldy, like a 24x scope. That is good for shooting off of the bench, but is really detrimental for everything else.

The truth is that to shoot a man size target at 1000 yards, you do not need all that much magnification. You do need it to hold up to general purpose use and stay zeroed. That is one of the reasons SWFA designs get suggested so much. There are newer scopes that have better image quality for similar money, but they do not have the same track record or the same low failure rates. If your budget is $300, reliability and durability are more important than anything else. If you are new at long-ish ranges, you should start out dialing, not holding with the reticle exclusively.

Now, to each his own. Some people come here for advice, take feedback and make their own conclusions. Others, select a couple of things that look appealing to them and come here looking for confirmation for their choices. Some change their mind, based on feedback, but most already have their minds set and go do their own thing. A significant number of those eventually end up changing optics a bunch of times and end up with what the Hide has recommended. It is just a more expensive way to get there.

On LPVOs: good quality LPVOs are approaching the speed of red dot sights, but they are still expensive and require training your presentation. Strike Eagle is not something you want to use as a basis for your opinion on LPVOs. If you did not start talking about 1000yard, I would have recommended Burris RT-6 or SwampFox Arrowhead to something along those lines and a lot of practice.

Depending on where you live, 1000 yard drop with a common 6.5Grendel load (like 123gr Hornady) is between 10.5 and 12 mrad with 200 yard zero. That is more than I like to hold with a reticle and out of the scopes you mentioned, only Deploy Mil has enough of a tree for that.

If I were you, I would either put a SWFA 10x42 Classic on it with an offset red dot or find a used SWFA 3-9x42 and add a red dot to that. I see a lot of scope every year and I can shoot with damn near anything I want. I use Tangent Thetas and Marches and Elcans and you name it. My Grendel has a Gen 3 Razor and if I dig in the back of the safe, I can probably find a ton of stuff in there that I do not remember off the top of my head.

I also have two SWFA SS 3-9x42 scopes. I have had them for a long time. They have never skipped a beat and I have never missed a shot because of them. Size wise, that is pretty much what you should be looking for given what you are looking to do. Maybe go a step bigger if you really want, but no bigger than the PST Gen2 3-15x44.

ILya

 

[mi223]

Yeah. What he said^^^

 

[6.5G]

bobke,
I'm not insistent on getting the Athlon or any scope of any manufacture. I cited other SH threads because I wanted to demonstrate my insistence on gaining more depth into an ongoing discussion I was abreast of here on the Hide, not start from square one. Also to demonstrate that wise minds differ, and the question itself, the priorities I laid out, and the resources I have, are a constant topic of conversation here and thus are not so crazy.

Koshkin's explanation, addressing the rifle, the setup, applications, and the financial position, is a pedagogical approach that gives the question asker the background required to make a decision within their context. Thank you Koshkin.

One day tech will advance as it does in every sector so that features that are previously inaccessible in a price bracket become easily attainable. It is foolish to believe a tube with some mechanics and glass is out of reach of the same processes that give us a present reality where state-of-the-art US consumer products in the most sophisticated categories are from China and Korea. You are reading this on a device made there right now. Not all factories are created equal in a country.

There is more than one reason the Miata is David to an industry's Goliath, and Ferrari is not the only relevant comparison. Taking a Western design language (British Roadster) and manufacturing over 1,000,000 of them in the East is the ethos that gave us SWFA in the first place, and it's not like there as a moratorium on that trick again. To the point about Bushnell Nitros, no they aren't made in Korea, but KDM now is in the same phase in relation to the US market that JDM was in the early 2000s and is eclipsing manufacturers like Nissan who are dead to enthusiasts. There will come a time when such a thing happens in optics.

The question I was essentially asking is if this time has come, and if I am the right volunteer to find out if there is promise but not certainty. One will never know if they refuse to try something new when the market changes, or they dismiss this question prima facie. If I am a fool for open-minded curiosity about an advancing industry, and asking people who know better to help evaluate the state of the art, sorry to bother. To quote Frank Galli's guide on here, "Do your homework, ask smart questions and don’t let others pick your favorite color for you."

Thank you.

 

[koshkin]

A couple of points: optomechanical stuff is not as affected by the scale of manufacturing and automation as electronics are. There is a lot of manual labor and fitting involved. To be fair some optomechanical things have been commoditized in this way (cell phone camera modules), but riflescopes do not have anywhere near the volume for that. Even with automation, an IPhone's camera module costs somewhere in the $40 range and it is MUCH smaller and simpler than the lens assemblies in a riflescope. In the optomechanics world, up to a certain limit, there is a reasons things cost what they do.

In practical terms, if a Chinese scope like the Argos is sold for around $300, that means the OEM who made it got paid somewhere in the $50-$60 range. That produced enough profit for them to stay in business.

For a scope like SWFA Classic 10x42, since they buy it directly from the factory and sell it directly from the consumer, the cost of manufacturing it is likely more than double of that of Argos, despite being a substantially simpler design from an optical standpoint. That's why it has the mechanics that hold up as well as they do and that is why their return rates are ridiculously low.

There are some really nice scopes coming out of China now, but while cheaper than their Japanese counterparts, they are still not cheap. Chinese scopes have gotten a lot better, but they also moved upmarket because there is no magic. Nice materials and high quality assembly cost money regardless of where the product is made. Chinese engineers also like getting paid. They are much more skilled not than they were 15 years ago, and they get paid accordingly.

You are doing the right thing by collecting information, but first and foremost you have to be really clear about the application.

ILya

 

[xRangerx]

Maybe check the sightron deals at Liberty Optics? https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...t-match-new-sightron-closeouts.6938253/page-8

 

[koshkin]

Maybe check the sightron deals at Liberty Optics? https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...t-match-new-sightron-closeouts.6938253/page-8

Those are really good prices and 3.5-10x44 for $400 is ab absolute steal.

ILya

 

[6.5G]

Thank you, ILya. Your guidance and blog have been very enlightening. What mounts would you recommend for this application and budget?

 

[koshkin]

Thank you, ILya. Your guidance and blog have been very enlightening. What mounts would you recommend for this application and budget?

Mounts are important and kinda personal since different people prefer different heights. I mostly use Aadmounts, but they are difficult to find in stock anywhere. Seekins mounts have worked well for me. The new Burris Signature mount looks promising, but I have not tested it. I like Burris SIgnature rings, so I am going to try the mount at some point. It is priced well. Another inexpensive mount that seems to have worked well for me is GG&G FLT.

For the red dot, it kinda depends on which red dot and how you like to mount it.

ILya

 

[bobke]

You might also consider a setup or mount with 20MOA built in, ADM/Nightforce/Aadmount/Bobro all come to mind, but there are other options, as noted. Quality mounts can travel forward as you upgrade over time as long as OD of scope remains same. The Grendel is a great round, but can use the benefit of 20MOA at distance to keep you from being at the perimeter of scope adjustment, whether holding or dialing. Ilya has provided excellent counsel, as expected-good luck with your project. We were all where you are at some point in our shooting careers.

 

[Hellifino32]

With a smaller rifle like this, the swfa 3-15 has to be suggested. It’s as small as the fixed 10x and quite lightweight. Being able to go to low magnification, and keeping an AR light enough to fire standing accurately seem like advantages. I cannot do that well with my 22” 6mm predator with IOR 24ish oz optic and bipod and usually a suppressor weighing too much to do so. The better ranged weapon your AR becomes. . . The less handy it becomes.

 

[6.5G]

Hi all,

As an update, based on the recommendations here, I bought an SWFA 10X42 MRAD and 20 moa base. I've had the scope for 10 days and have adjusted the diopter and that's good.

However, I have been practicing cuncurrent windage and elevation holdovers on stationary and moving targets at different angles often since recieving the scope. I find doing it with moving targete impossible. For consistency's sake this entire time I've been practicing with the same holdover; 2 diamonds right and 4 down, to give me the best chance to see a gain from practice.

There is simply no way to reference 2 points on the reticle and track a point on a target. The best I am doing is what is supposed to make ghost rings easy, which is to judge based on space between the crosshairs and my intended point of aim. But that buffer of space fluctuates a hundred times per second when tracking a slow moving target. A definite point in the scope (crosshair junction, christmas tree dot) to hold onto serves both to grossly orient the rifle to the target, and then when you're ready to fire, as a diagnostic aid for your final alignment. How can one ever get proficient enough to detect these minute changes in space between two targets and points their eyes are not focusing on?

 

[FishDr]

How can one ever get proficient enough to detect these minute changes in space between two targets and points their eyes are not focusing on?

PRACTICE..... LOL Seriously, though - that is one situation where a fixed point would benefit. Suggest in that situation to "dial" the elevation (so your holdover is now on the horizontal stadia). That eliminates one variable. Another option is to try both "trapping" and "tracking" the moving target. You will find one to be easier in this case. Not being a smart Alec, but this could be an opportunity for professional instruction.
The mechanical tracking and accurate return to zero (which is needed in this case) is one of the reasons so many have suggested the very robust SWFA scopes over some others in the same price point. Not as "feature rich", but superior mechanical reliability is a great asset.

 

[Hellifino32]

Add the 1” bushnell scopes. They are the older elite tactical line. You will know them by the turrets. These are LOW scopes from Japan. I’ve even seen stupid fixed 10x deals for under 200$. Most are 3-9x. It’s like they made 20,000 of them 20 years ago and just whip them out from time to time. They pop up on samplelist too. Slightly better glass and turrets than the reg swfa line, and craptastic mildot reticle. Obv doesn’t have the adj range or ruggedness, but a lightweight option I could 100% trust at a stupid price.

 

[hlee]

Hi all,

As an update, based on the recommendations here, I bought an SWFA 10X42 MRAD and 20 moa base. I've had the scope for 10 days and have adjusted the diopter and that's good.

However, I have been practicing cuncurrent windage and elevation holdovers on stationary and moving targets at different angles often since recieving the scope. I find doing it with moving targete impossible. For consistency's sake this entire time I've been practicing with the same holdover; 2 diamonds right and 4 down, to give me the best chance to see a gain from practice.

There is simply no way to reference 2 points on the reticle and track a point on a target. The best I am doing is what is supposed to make ghost rings easy, which is to judge based on space between the crosshairs and my intended point of aim. But that buffer of space fluctuates a hundred times per second when tracking a slow moving target. A definite point in the scope (crosshair junction, christmas tree dot) to hold onto serves both to grossly orient the rifle to the target, and then when you're ready to fire, as a diagnostic aid for your final alignment. How can one ever get proficient enough to detect these minute changes in space between two targets and points their eyes are not focusing on?

Instead of trying to smoothly track the target, trap or ambush the target. Calculate the lead you need based on the wind direction and speed and movement direction of the target. Get your reticle in front of the target and touch it off when the target hits that lead.

Second, unless your at some pretty significant attitude, 1000y with the Grendel is more of a hope than anything. Granted that I’m shooting at nearly sea level, but my 18” Grendel is pretty well trans-sonic at 1000 yards- running at a calculated 1100 FPS at that distance.

 

[6.5G]

An update- I am not finding an offset mount that can get a MRDS far enough out of the way to not stare at windage turret on the SWFA SS 10x through the window or ruin my cheek weld. I don't want to do the mod where I hack the turret up and put a rubber cap on it. Dear god is there really no trustworthy alternative at this price with even slightly lower profile or capped turrets?

 

[6.5G]

Otherwise I might cut the mount I found that puts the red-hot closest to out-of-the-way and epoxy it at a more exaggerated angle. I'm just afraid I'll line it up imprecisely even if I cut halfway and bend. I don't want the point of impact to be outside the MRDS adjustability of the mount is out of whack.

 

[drewthebrave]

How about something like this, so you can tilt your backup dot at any angle that's comfortable to avoid the tall turrets.

JP Rifles

 

[6.5G]

Yeah I made a long-winded post asking about opinions on scope-tube-mounts and different offsets that got no replies. I had a lot of questions about those types of mounts.

 

[Tallahassee]

Add the 1” bushnell scopes. They are the older elite tactical line. You will know them by the turrets. These are LOW scopes from Japan. I’ve even seen stupid fixed 10x deals for under 200$. Most are 3-9x. It’s like they made 20,000 of them 20 years ago and just whip them out from time to time. They pop up on samplelist too. Slightly better glass and turrets than the reg swfa line, and craptastic mildot reticle. Obv doesn’t have the adj range or ruggedness, but a lightweight option I could 100% trust at a stupid price.

I bought one for $99 on sale years back, fixed 10x. Damn thing keeps going and going.

 

[Strykervet]

If you're looking at those, why not a used 3.5-10x Leupold Mk4? I use one on my 20" and it sure gets the job done. They're good solid scopes for the price. One just went for $400 and I'm kicking myself for not finding that one sooner! Maybe I'll get the Hensoldt for $1k though... Fingers crossed I'm first.

Check out the PX here before you buy.

 

[6.5G]

Now that the Nitro is even more popular here, has anyone changed their opinions? https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...dget-scope-to-beat-swfa-is-on-notice.7005389/

 

[AlpineSniper]

Cut out all alcohol and dining from your budget for a few months and buy a used optic for 1k

 

[6.5G]

You missed the part where I said I was a grad student. Not everyone is just a tiny bit of sacrificed luxury away from a thousand dollars. I buy one bottle of alcohol and go out to eat an average 3 times a year.

I guess shooting doesn't belong to working-class and poor people. Or you could just answer the question within the parameters with the awareness that this price is apparently a pretty active market share for one reason or the other.

 

[Team RCBS & Bushnell]

As a Grendel guy and a soon-to-be grad student, I'd personally save up a little extra and go for the illuminated Match Pro or at least the non-illuminated one over the 2.5-10x Nitro. It's worth it. I used to shoot quite a bit of USPSA PCC, so I'm all about the offset RDS as well. They're great for backup & a wide field of view, but also great for leans when needed.

 

[6.5G]

That is a slick optic! I did ultimately find a mount combo that put the offset RDS right where it should be and it is as awesome as you describe. Based on your experiences, how close would you feel 2.5 to be useful in for something like USPSA PCC? Thanks!

 

[Team RCBS & Bushnell]

That is a slick optic! I did ultimately find a mount combo that put the offset RDS right where it should be and it is as awesome as you describe. Based on your experiences, how close would you feel 2.5 to be useful in for something like USPSA PCC? Thanks!

The Nitro 2.5-10x on a PCC for USPSA? I was never a GM and I haven't shot it much since about 2017 so I'm sure some things have changed, but I've never seen somebody use a scope like that for USPSA PCC. I always ran dual reflex dot on mine. It wouldn't surprise me if some folks are running LPVOs here and there by now for it, but even those are giving up some FOV to a tube or reflex dot, and that generally costs some speed on the close targets. I don't know that many would find it helpful for the hit factor on adjusting a magnification either. I mean, I shot Open most of the time and I was able to get AA on some pretty far targets at majors without issue. I never felt like I needed more magnification than a simple red dot for USPSA PCC.

 

[BurnOut]

If the OP can stretch his budget a bit, IMO it's damned difficult to beat the Weaver 3-15 Tactical for this application. 50 mm objective, FFP, illuminated, with respectable glass and good tracking, for $500. It could really use a zero stop and an updated reticle, but in the grand scheme of things, it really is a pretty good match for that type of rifle. It's what I have on my own 20" Grendel, but I paid more for it. Dammit.

 

[UIUCPPQ]

OP,

I read through the comments on here and I’d say for your budget you’ve made a good selection for your longer range applications. As for competitive shooting, I think people on here missed the mark a bit, but in their defense you did say that was secondary to 1,000 yards.

In other words, if you’re going to be using your scope for USPSA or 3 gun or like competitions, you’re going to want an LPVO. You may be able to get around this with your offset red dot, but I would run through the rules and divisions with a fine toothed comb to make sure you aren’t putting yourself in a division you don’t want to compete in.

Regarding your question about moving targets, most people will dial for elevation and hold for wind. Elevation tends to be relatively unchanging for a given target and thus it’s just simplest to ”put it on the line” so to speak. If you do not want to do that and you are adamant about that, then it’s a matter of practice or reticle replacement. Out of curiosity, what size/distance are your moving targets?

 

[SN13]

I just saw my Buddy's 2.5-10 Nitro he got for $199 from @gr8fuldoug ....
(https://cameralandny.com/shop/bushn...1b8b-0138-86b8-00163ecd2826?variation=2104371)

That is some really decent glass. 10yrd focus? 2.5x gives a LOT of FoV and the 10x was really easy to use at 200yrd last weekend.

I don't need another optic but I'm still tempted just for the cost alone.

I also had the chance to shoot a Leupold Mk5 HD 5-25x56 with CCH reticle. That was a crisp image. ($2500ish)
And surprisingly saw an Athlon 6-24? It looked decent. Was a really easy eyebox but i didn't catch much else about it. Guy said about $600 (Not sure on these models etc)

 

[TheBigCountry]

I just saw my Buddy's 2.5-10 Nitro he got for $199 from @gr8fuldoug ....
(https://cameralandny.com/shop/bushn...1b8b-0138-86b8-00163ecd2826?variation=2104371)

That is some really decent glass. 10yrd focus? 2.5x gives a LOT of FoV and the 10x was really easy to use at 200yrd last weekend.

I don't need another optic but I'm still tempted just for the cost alone.

I also had the chance to shoot a Leupold Mk5 HD 5-25x56 with CCH reticle. That was a crisp image. ($2500ish)
And surprisingly saw an Athlon 6-24? It looked decent. Was a really easy eyebox but i didn't catch much else about it. Guy said about $600 (Not sure on these models etc)

This. The 2.5-10 Bushy surprised me as well on my 18” newest build. For $199 it’s a steal.

 

[6.5G]

UIUCPPQ,

I checked and an offset red dot does put one in open whereas tactical optics which I guess is the most popular division now permits only offset irons.

What very budget LPVO would you reccomend?

If I stay in open class with an offset red dot, would you consider 2.5-10x serviceable? Would that mag be serviceable if I run knockoff Duek Defense offset irons and go to tac optics class?

If going solely with a LPVO only, I guess I will get ~$400 if I sell the SS and offset MRDS. What would you reccomend there? I have always been nervous about LPVO for home defense, and in competition I know people run offsets for a good reason.

I know ARSOF folks have been seen to use offsets on the one hand, and just Strike Eagles on the other. so I'm sure my fears are irrational and either are fine. I guess having a LPVO means my left-handed/eyed wife will have something other than 10x to look through.

What would you do?

 

[308pirate]

@6.5G some comments from my quick scan of your thread...……

1. No USPSA PCC competitor that I have ever seen (and I get to see some REALLY good ones locally) uses anything other than a reflex sight (aka red dot). Most of them use open-emitter reflex sights with the largest window they can find (think Trijicon SRO and the like). Have never seen one use an LPVO that goes down to 1X, and one would have to be downright stupid or masochist to use any variable scope with bottom magnification greater than 1.
2. The PC in PCC stands for PISTOL CALIBER. You will NOT be allowed to shoot any rifle chambered in a rifle caliber. Period. Don't even ask.
3. You're suffering the typical noob paralysis by analysis, compounded by the fact that you seem to be applying some sort of thesis approach to your decision

 

[308pirate]

The Ford Focus, Honda Fit are manufactured in China and imported to the US.

Do you have evidence of this? Every Focus sold here was made either in Detroit or Hermosillo.

First and second generation US market Fits were all made in Japan. I'm pretty sure 3rd gen sales are a mixture of Japanese and Mexican made.

 

[UIUCPPQ]

@6.5G some comments from my quick scan of your thread...……

1. No USPSA PCC competitor that I have ever seen (and I get to see some REALLY good ones locally) uses anything other than a reflex sight (aka red dot). Most of them use open-emitter reflex sights with the largest window they can find (think Trijicon SRO and the like). Have never seen one use an LPVO that goes down to 1X, and one would have to be downright stupid or masochist to use any variable scope with bottom magnification greater than 1.
2. The PC in PCC stands for PISTOL CALIBER. You will NOT be allowed to shoot any rifle chambered in a rifle caliber. Period. Don't even ask.
3. You're suffering the typical noob paralysis by analysis, compounded by the fact that you seem to be applying some sort of thesis approach to your decision

I should specify a little bit. When I talk about using a rifle in USPSA, I am referring to USPSA *multigun*, not the ordinary, pistol-oriented USPSA competitions that accommodate PCC divisions. If you are shooting a pistol course with a PCC, there is no reason to ever use a magnified optic, because there is never going to be a time that it would benefit you. If you are doing USPSA multigun, well then you’re basically shooting 3-gun and sometimes the rifle targets are a little farther out, at which point the LPVO is the appropriate tool. I won my last USPSA multigun for Tac division partially because I was able to go farther up the “challenge” targets than others; a feat I would not have been able to do without some magnification.

OP, if you are looking for something to use in competitions, I honestly wouldn’t mess around with 2.5-10 and a red dot. 10x would leave me unsatisfied at 1,000 yards and is more than you really need for a close/mid competition. I have no doubt you could make it work with practice, but I would just say go for a 1-6 or even a 1-8 and don’t worry about the offset sight. I have no experience with LPVO in the $400 range, I’m sorry to say. I am confident there are good options around that range, though. Scopes have come a long way in value since I bought my last LPVO. I think for something that will be mainly used within 500 yards, an LPVO is the best tool for the job. 1x I can easily keep up with red dots at close range, but red dot users cannot match the precision of 6-8x magnification at ranges of 100 or more. If you are seeking to shoot at 1000 yards as your main purpose, then 6 or 10x are both going to seem low to you. One thing is for sure though, you will not enjoy shooting in Open division lol!

To sum things up, if you want to shoot close/mid range competition, I strongly recommend an LPVO. If you want to shoot 1000 yards, then you will appreciate an upper magnification of at least 16x. I would feel fully confident in an LPVO for home defense, as long as you train with it. Normally I wouldn’t type this much, but I sense you are seeking every detail you can find. I hope this helps.

 

[6.5G]

308Pirate,

Thank you for your feedback. I was experiencing noob analysis paralysis. Rather than develop a totally abstract theory based on reading I asked questions of those with experience, and executed.

I purchased the recommended setup and practiced with it. Experience grants me perspective, and my questions evolve as I do.

The good-natured stewardship of those with experience sharing their clarity has been a valued part of this process. The synthesis of expert info alongside praxis is my preferred antiparalytic as I respect the insight of those that come before me.


https://www.motor1.com/news/240665/2020-ford-focus-active-detailed/

In Canada, a Car Built in China (Published 2011)

For the first time, cars built in China are arriving in North America, with Honda importing its subcompact Fit into Canada.

www.nytimes.com

 

[6.5G]

@koshkin ,

I am watching your newest "If I Could Have Only One" stream. I am also curious about the 6mm ARC and still building my "only one" 18" Grendel and I count myself very lucky that you maintain a continual thought experiment for my real scenario.

I just watched this were you say one would likely need to spend $1000 to compete with the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10x which is at $449 shipped with a coupon code. A commenter asked about your opinion on the Mil stadia reticle and you mentioned it likely wasn't out yet.

You originally suggested the Arrowhead and said you leaned toward the SS because of me prioritizing 1000yds. You also said I should be really clear about my application. Well, experience is teaching me that 1000yrds is not my primary use. You were right to suspect.

If you were me would you stick with your original advice of 10x SWFA SS plus offset MRDS or would you try the Arrowhead with the newer reticle?

Arrowhead SFP LPVO | Swampfox Optics

Explore the Arrowhead LPVO series with 1-6x, 1-8x, and 1-10x magnification. Features SFP reticles, push/pull locking turrets, and 12 illumination settings.

www.swampfoxoptics.com

 

[6.5G]

Wait an f'n second; Ilya you are so the right dude to ask these questions lolol