Big bore short action?

[westford86]

For some inexplicable reason I want to build a super compact bolt gun for hunting. 16" barrel, a folding stock chassis and detachable magazines would be preferable as well.

When I think about building a .308 with a 16" barrel, it just doesn't make any sense from a ballistic standpoint. I would really like to go big-bore, .50 Beowulf, .458 socom, .450 Bushmaster, and maybe 45-70, or .357 Maximum... I was wondering what options are out there for short actions (preferably rem 700 pattern) chambered in large bore/straight-walled cartridges? I realize that if any of this is even possible it will likely be custom work...

So far the only thing I have been able to find is this - brockman's 50 beowulf It's pretty close to what I want, but not exactly it.

I would like to be able to utilize one of the existing folding chassis on the market, and use a traditional action to keep things simple. Any info or advice would be great.

 

[hohlspitz]

Re: Big bore short action?

westford86,

The first thing to consider is the headspace feature. Your choices are:

rimmed
bottleneck
belted
case mouth

For your use, the bottleneck is probably the easiest although it eliminates your term 'straight case' from the selections. These will fit and function through the standard DM where you can get them with the front plate removed for seating the bullet out longer yet still work through the Remington SA.

Noveske lists a couple including the .416 and the .458 Noveske which use the WSM case necked up to accept the appropriate bullet diameter.

There are any number of combinations which could be made to work with the belted basic case shortened to approximately 2" which has been around for several decades from the Frank Barnes .458 x 2" American cartridge.

Historically, you could step back to the 9.5 x 57 Mauser which is the 8 x 57 case necked up to take the .375" bullets. The other variation is the 10.75 x 57 using the .423" bullets. The OAL is within the 2.950" length for the magazines without the front plate.

Enjoy the process.

I just happened to remember that Dave Kiff makes M700 SA bolts with the Lapua rim diameter which would accommodate the SA Lazzeroni big bore cartridge 10.57 Maverick (.416).

 

[km71107]

Re: Big bore short action?

450 Marlin would work in a short action. If you're into wildcats, a 458x2" would be cool.

 

[westford86]

Re: Big bore short action?

@ hohlspitz Thanks for the reply. As for 'straight case', 'Straight-Walled Cartridges' would have been a better term; I'll fix that. You've come up with a lot of interesting options, I'll have to do more reading up on all of them before making any definitive statement. My initial thoughts are, I don't have much interest in a WSM based cartridge, because I want a short barrel it seems kind of wasteful, and you get limited magazine capacity. The retro Russian options are neat but not really my thing. The Lazzeroni Maverick is interesting, but so expensive...

The Frank Barnes .458 x 2" American cartridge looks really promising. I don't know much about it, but I am certainly going to look into it. My only hesitation is that it's a fairly obscure wildcat. Also, if you look up .458 socom on wikipedia it briefly mentions in the history that the .458 x 1.5" was used in bolt guns during Vietnam, do you know anything about that?

Lastly, to further clarify your first point of choosing a headspace feature, I would prefer a cartridge that is, rimless, semi-rimmed, or had a rebated rim. The reason I would want to go with rimless, semi-rimmed, or a rebated rim, is to allow smoother feeding from a box magazine. The only reason 45-70 made it onto my initial list is that I'm already set up to re-load it; and I only mentioned .357 Maximum because it's fairly popular. In the same vein as the .357 and 45-70, .444 Marlin is another cartridge I'd consider.

Honestly I think a rebated rim would be the easiest, as I could use existing bolts, the only thing I would have to find is a barrel. Both .458 socom and .50 beowulf utilize a 7.62x39 bolt face (.473" diameter rim), so they are much easier to integrate into current platforms. I should also add the .450 Bushmaster to this list, as it also uses a .473" diameter rebated rim.

 

[hohlspitz]

Re: Big bore short action?

westford86,

I wanted to get the ball rolling with variations and themes on the thumper concept. Those cartridges mentioned are simply examples of a much broader field using the different case designs. I don't have any favorites nor agendas.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...because I want a short barrel it seems kind of wasteful, and you get limited magazine capacity.</div></div>

When loaded with 400, 450 or 500 grain bullets, the .458 Noveske will burn all of the powder within the length of the short barrel you mentioned. The powders of choice are all faster burn rates.

The Noveske case is rebated with a rim diameter of .534" and a head diameter of .555". The head diameter is only 0.020" larger in diameter than the Barnes case which is a belted magnum shortened. The Bushmaster is based on the rebated .284 case which has a head diameter of .500" compared to the .532" belt diameter of the Barnes. You're going to lose magazine capacity no matter what with these larger case cartridges.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both .458 socom and .50 beowulf utilize a 7.62x39 bolt face (.473" diameter rim)...</div></div>

The .458 SOCOM uses a modified .50 AE case with a rim diameter of .473:

<span style="font-style: italic">"The cartridge case design was finalized based on discussions with Tony Rumore at Tromix, Inc. suggesting a lengthened .50 AE case would work well in the magazines as well as be the largest diameter case to be able to feed through the barrel extension. The rim size was chosen for compatibility with other platforms, primarily bolt action rifles, as the .473" diameter rim is arguably the most common rim size globally (all bolt actions chambered in 7.92×57mm Mauser, .30-06 Springfield or .308 Winchester share this rim size)."</span>

The .50 Beowulf uses the 7.62x39 which is the .445" rim diameter.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The retro Russian options are neat but not really my thing.</div></div>

Actually they are German as they were based on the 7.92x57 Mauser cartridge as designed by Peter Paul and Wilhelm Mauser, creator of the M98 Mauser rifle system. The 9.5x57 MS was designed by Westley-Richards (British firm) in 1908.

Enjoy the process.

 

[sinarms]

Re: Big bore short action?

The easiest would probably be a 458 socom, I'm building a few barrels in that for Savage actions, just find an 08 donor rifle and its a simple barrel swap.

 

[westford86]

Re: Big bore short action?

hohlspitz, once again more good info. I'm glad guys like you are around to clear up some of my confusion...

I still haven't had much luck finding any info on the Noveske options, do you have any links to articles or a product page?

Also, my bad on calling the Mauser Russian, I've never paid any attention to either the Mausers or Nagant (or any pre-1947 Russian or German gun now that I think about it) so I always mistake one for the other... Now I really feel like an ass.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hohlspitz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both .458 socom and .50 beowulf utilize a 7.62x39 bolt face (.473" diameter rim)...</div></div>

The .458 SOCOM uses a modified .50 AE case with a rim diameter of .473:

<span style="font-style: italic">"The cartridge case design was finalized based on discussions with Tony Rumore at Tromix, Inc. suggesting a lengthened .50 AE case would work well in the magazines as well as be the largest diameter case to be able to feed through the barrel extension. The rim size was chosen for compatibility with other platforms, primarily bolt action rifles, as the .473" diameter rim is arguably the most common rim size globally (all bolt actions chambered in 7.92×57mm Mauser, .30-06 Springfield or .308 Winchester share this rim size)."</span>

The .50 Beowulf uses the 7.62x39 which is the .445" rim diameter.

</div></div>

^^^ I though all three used the same bolt face diameter; I guess I was a little confused from reading a bunch of forums and write-ups comparing those cartridges, and my facts were crossed up. Knowing that the .50 Beowulf is the odd man out puts the socom in favor.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Big bore short action?

What are you hunting with said rifle?

Why not make it easy and go 338 Federal?

Better yet, get a 308 with a 1-8" twist, shoot up to 240gr 30 cal bullets and have TONS of options below that. Great suppressed, subsonic, supersonic, etc etc. Not that I'm one to talk, but building a wildcat rifle that will have basically no resale value and only be used for a week or so a year is kind of silly.

 

[westford86]

Re: Big bore short action?

hohlspitz - I wish I found this 24 hours ago... <FAQ .50 vs. .458> It's from a company that does .458, so slightly slanted, but very clear cut and informative.

jasonk - I want to start hunting white tail with it. 338 Federal would be a good and easy option, but I'm not necessarily looking for a logical or easy choice. You make an excellent point about using a fast twist .308 and heavy bullets, that might be plan b for keeping cost down and still having an effective 16" rifle. However I wan't an odd ball project gun that I can develop some unique hand loads for. I'm intrigued by the big bore options for no other reason than I find it amusing; I really can't defend it, it's just something I think would be fun.

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Big bore short action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: km71107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">450 Marlin would work in a short action. If you're into wildcats, a 458x2" would be cool. </div></div>

+1

Those others (458Socom, 50Beowulf, etc) were designed to function within an AR magazine.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: Big bore short action?

Since you mentioned the 357 Maximum, you might also consider the 358 Win. Basically 308Win necked up to .358". That'd be real easy to put together, and would exceed 357Maximum ballistics by a good margin.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Big bore short action?

Take a look at a 358 Winchester. Handloaded it's impressive. Feeds well, made from 308 brass. What's not to like. I've built several and they are over achievers.

 

[JJones75]

Re: Big bore short action?

I would think that a WSM case necked up to .375-.458 would make for an impressive round in a short action.

I have seen a 450 Alaskan get 1900fps with a 500gr bullet and 65-ish grains of powder , I would think that a WSM case could get very close to that if not beat it due to shorter powder colume and better brass

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Big bore short action?

The 358 Win or even 350 Rem Magnum could make for impressive terminal energies, and most bullets should fit a short action and still maintain decently flat trajectories.

One of the potentials I have considered with the .35's is the possibility of loading them with 9mm or 38cal (.355" and .357" nominal diameters, compared to .358") projectiles.

Obturation might be an issue, and it might not, I think it would take some testing to confirm either.

Such bullets would likely be unsuitable for close range, but might actually outperform heavier constructed rifle bullets at distances where such heavier bullets could be having problems maintaining decent expansion. I can envision some significant 'smack' from such combinations.

Greg

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Big bore short action?

Greg

Might surprise you how well it would work.

 

[bohem]

Re: Big bore short action?

Do you have access to a lathe or a way to cut brass off? I have a round you'll probably like if you want an oddball but it requires cutting 30-06 brass off at the shoulder.

I also have a version that's a 44-308. It's not a long range round but you can shoot 180-300gr pistol bullets or super heavy cast bullets from subsonic all the way to about 3000fps. 180gr XTP's make a disaster on varmints up close with it, so far the farthest a deer has run from the chopped version is about 50 feet.

Both require handloading and brass prep but bullets are easily available. If you want super heavys (460gr) for shooting quietly or drilling holes through animals the long ways then I can show you them too.

The 358 Win that Dave and Greg are talking about is no slouch. The 35 Remington is a light version of it and that's a great close range big game rifle as well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Big bore short action?

The only .35 I've ever actually hunted with was/is my Brother's Marlin 336C .35 Rem that he's used many times for both Deer and Black Bear in the Adirondacks. Bear are kinda scarce around my haunts, but if I thought there was an even chance of encountering a Blackie, the .35 Rem would be my deer gun, just in case I needed some big clout. These days my 'usual' is a choice between Ruger MKI .30-'06, MKI .280 Rem, a W94 .44 Mag, and several 20ga with rifled slugs and/or Sabots.

When I build my L/A Savage Switch-Hunter, one of the barrels will be a .35 Whelen. The other two will be .280 Rem., and .30-'06.

Greg

 

[Shortdraw]

Re: Big bore short action?

How about a 375-08, or a 458-08. Those always intrigued me. My hunting buddy is using a 375-338 this year. That one looks cool too.

 

[glazer1972]

Re: Big bore short action?

9.3x51

 

[westford86]

Re: Big bore short action?

This thread has been really interesting and informative for me. hohlspitz was the first to mention WSM based cartridges to which I was a little hesitant to consider at first. The more I look into what it would take to actually make a bolt action thumper run with a .458 WSM the more I like them. Right now I think a .458 WSM would be the best option. I already have access to casting equipment for .458 (I've been casting bullets for a 45-70 with my dad since I could hold the mould handles), Plenty of people are making WSM components for Rem 700 pattern guns, A few companies are making magazines for WSM that are the same spec as AI and Badger box mags which means I can use a folding chassis with no modifications. I do think the 450 marlin is a strong contender as well.

All the cartridges that have been mentioned here a certainly interesting, there are several that I wasn't even aware of before. This is all still just an idea so keep the ideas and suggestions coming, I'm certainly learning a lot.

Does anyone have a good source for barrels, preferably 5R?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have access to a lathe or a way to cut brass off? I have a round you'll probably like if you want an oddball but it requires cutting 30-06 brass off at the shoulder.

I also have a version that's a 44-308. It's not a long range round but you can shoot 180-300gr pistol bullets or super heavy cast bullets from subsonic all the way to about 3000fps. 180gr XTP's make a disaster on varmints up close with it, so far the farthest a deer has run from the chopped version is about 50 feet.

Both require handloading and brass prep but bullets are easily available. If you want super heavys (460gr) for shooting quietly or drilling holes through animals the long ways then I can show you them too.

The 358 Win that Dave and Greg are talking about is no slouch. The 35 Remington is a light version of it and that's a great close range big game rifle as well. </div></div>

Bohem- I'm not sure if this is a question you are asking me or Dave, but I don't have consistent access to a lathe; I've got a few friends who them but I don't know what there set up is...

 

[bohem]

Re: Big bore short action?

I was asking you, making brass for this oddball is best done on a lathe. Once you get the collet setup and the case length set you can modify about 150-200 pieces/hour of 30-06 brass. It's a simple trim to length operation, then deburr/chamfer the mouth with a hand tool while the machine is spinning down.

A 458 WSM sounds like a fun toy, casting bullets will serve you well in this endeavor. Lee makes a 500gr RN mould for 458cal rifles if you don't already have something that heavy.

 

[Ed Baker]

Re: Big bore short action?

Take a look at the latest "Precision Shooting" Magazine. On page 82 there is an article about chambering the 500 S&W Magnum in a 22 in barrel rifle. It was an interesting article. Something you might consider? Best of luck with your choice.

Ed

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Re: Big bore short action?

my vote is for the 458x2---used this caliber for metallic silhouette shooting out of a bolt action handgun (15") and
it was a true thumper if you were not recoil sensitive

 

[dlc356]

Re: Big bore short action?

A .444 would be another choice.

 

[westford86]

Re: Big bore short action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BERTMAN77MK2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my vote is for the 458x2---used this caliber for metallic silhouette shooting out of a bolt action handgun (15") and
it was a true thumper if you were not recoil sensitive </div></div>

Recoil, the more the merrier!

 

[Shortdraw]

Re: Big bore short action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ed Baker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take a look at the latest "Precision Shooting" Magazine. On page 82 there is an article about chambering the 500 S&W Magnum in a 22 in barrel rifle. It was an interesting article. Something you might consider? Best of luck with your choice.

Ed </div></div>
Thought about that one right away as well. I am shooting a T/C Encore with a 18" 500 S&W Mag barrel, and a 20" 375 H&H Mag. Makes for a sweet brush carbine with way more than enough snort to shoot accurately to 300+ yards. Great medicine for these Kodiak brown bears and midwest whitetails. Handy as hell, but I have been wanting a bolt action version for awhile after getting chased all summer by a young aggressive brownie. 458wsm sounds really sweet too. I demand pictures when you get it built!

 

[westford86]

Re: Big bore short action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ed Baker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take a look at the latest "Precision Shooting" Magazine. On page 82 there is an article about chambering the 500 S&W Magnum in a 22 in barrel rifle. It was an interesting article. Something you might consider? Best of luck with your choice.

Ed </div></div>
Thought about that one right away as well. I am shooting a T/C Encore with a 18" 500 S&W Mag barrel, and a 20" 375 H&H Mag. Makes for a sweet brush carbine with way more than enough snort to shoot accurately to 300+ yards. Great medicine for these Kodiak brown bears and midwest whitetails. Handy as hell, but I have been wanting a bolt action version for awhile after getting chased all summer by a young aggressive brownie. 458wsm sounds really sweet too. I demand pictures when you get it built! </div></div>

I'm going to have to make my way to Borders or Barnes & Nobel this weekend. I promise to post pictures when I'm done; don't hold your breath, I'm going to have to save up for a while. Or land some really lucrative freelance gigs...

 

[S391]

You don't hear much about it these days but I have always been a big fan of the .350 Remington Magnum. .35 cal, belted magnum in a short action.......

 

[bohem]

The 358 Win or even 350 Rem Magnum could make for impressive terminal energies, and most bullets should fit a short action and still maintain decently flat trajectories.

One of the potentials I have considered with the .35's is the possibility of loading them with 9mm or 38cal (.355" and .357" nominal diameters, compared to .358") projectiles.

Obturation might be an issue, and it might not, I think it would take some testing to confirm either.

Such bullets would likely be unsuitable for close range, but might actually outperform heavier constructed rifle bullets at distances where such heavier bullets could be having problems maintaining decent expansion. I can envision some significant 'smack' from such combinations.

Greg

Greg

Might surprise you how well it would work.

Greg,

Something that my dad and I did about 11 years ago now was to take a 30-06 case, cut it off at the shoulder, and load 44cal bullets into it.

Your idea about pistol bullets in those cases works just dandy from our experience. You can run the 180gr XTP over 3200fps from a 20" rifle or you can alternatively load the 460gr cast lead at a comfortable subsonic speed with RedDot and it's super quiet with a suppressor but still packs ample punch for debilitating shots on whitetails. Through and through penetration of both shoulders without any issue at all, the deer drop on their faces.

Dave,

Glad to see you're here on this one, makes me feel better that "being in the weeds" sometimes is a good thing

 

[TRAAV]

Not sure how it would do out of a Short barrel but we are getting really good results with our 358 Grant 1.8's
Here is the thread that tells about it
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/198392-358-grant-1-8-a.html

 

[mcfred]

I did an ~18" 510 WSM in a Pierce short action RM700 clone. Left it heavy at 11lbs.

505 gr paper patched going up to 1850fps, plenty of room left for powder too. With single-feed 650gr 50BMG tips going 1700fps out of a longer barreled version. I have a single data point of a 2700fps lathe-turned 240gr brass solid, but the chrony was being a pain so it could have been a fluke.

Fits in Alpha/Accurate magazines and runs higher pressure than the 45-70/beowulf/socom/bushmasters.

Much along the same lines but with everything already assembled with load data, brass and dies: B & M Rifles and Cartridges - Home

My stick:

 

[squirrel_slayer]

one of the guys on savage forums built essentially a 50 alaskan rimless using RUM brass cut to length and a slight amount of neck turning velocities were higher than 50 alaskan due to higher pressure capability (essentially a 510wsm but he liked rum brass better but needed the neck turning). he also did another with the 375 ruger case cut off at the shoulder so it was a little longer. 500gr at 2800ft/sec....sounds painful.

 

[blackblue]

.458 wsm lots of bullet choices from light to very heavy.

 

[pc3]

The .375 WSM is a really nice round similar to .308 trajectory when using the 260 gr Nos accubond (compared with 168gr loads).

 

[18Echo]

There's a picture in the shorty rifle thread of some guy with a 375 WSM that looks pretty cool. I'd do that or a .35 WSM