Bipod or sand bags for load development

odoylerules

odoylerules

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Apr 25, 2017
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#1
I’m asking for load development only. I would hunt, practice and compete with a bipod. I know I should work on my consistency with a bipod, but sometimes I get frustrated during load development, especially group shooting, because I think it’s me when that flyer pops out of the group, or the weird impact on the long range ladder happens.
What do you guys do?
 
#3
Most shooters I'm acquainted with, including me, get different results off a bipod vs. sand bags (or a backpack, for example). Some of us get very similar, but still different results, and some of us get _very_ different results. It appears to me to be, in significant part, a matter of learning how to manage the recoil using each type of rest. Yes, your rifle may be 'jumping' under recoil off the bipod, particularly if you're shooting off a hard surface. It could be other things, though.

My own suggestion is to either practice a bit with the bipod before you make the final decision to use it for hunting, or else just revert to what you're used to & comfortable with for this year, and practice in the off-season with the bipod for possible use next year.
 
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#4
I've always done load development with a bipod and a rear bag.

I shoot mostly matches and some shooting is done prone, but mostly off of a tactical udder.

I feel confident that being able to hit plates at 4 or 500 yards off the udder, I would have no problem shooting off of a pack in the same manner to take game.
 
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#5
I do load development with what I will shoot from: Bipod and rear bag. Position is sitting at a bench at a square range which doesn't like shooters to go prone, unfortunately. Hey, they have to deal with the general public who can sometimes be scary when handling firearms, so I understand. I know for me prone is better for recoil management and overall more stable platform.
 
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#6
Consistent accuracy has its basis in the full set of factors involved in the shooting process.

Change one, and you change the process; hence you change the outcome. So develop as closely to the way you'll be shooting the eventual load, that will give the most appropriate result.

Greg
 
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#7
The ammount of load you put on your bipod will change your group when load developing because the more load that you put on the more it will mess with barrel harmonics. Ive always used a bipod to load develop and get repeatable groups off of a bag, but make sure i'm not loading the bipod while doing it.
 
#10
Fauropitotto said:
With a free-float handguard, there's no way loading the bipod can interfere with the barrel harmonics. Right?
Click to expand...
Go listen to long range university podcast episode 22. They talk about it towards the last 30 minutes I think. The whole podcast is super good to listen too tho. It’s two marine corps scout sniper instructors and a PRC national champ discussing how the bipod does just what I said.
 
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#12
parkerg31 said:
Go listen to long range university podcast episode 22. They talk about it towards the last 30 minutes I think. The whole podcast is super good to listen too tho. It’s two marine corps scout sniper instructors and a PRC national champ discussing how the bipod does just what I said.
Click to expand...

Where to find this?

Google has not been helpful with "long range university podcast", and I can't find the episode listing on the PRC podcast. Long range pursuit podcast doesn't go to ep 22
 
#15
Free float handguard, properly installed and torqued: check
SS heavy barrel: check
StraightJacket barrel system to eliminate barrel whip: check
PROPER bipod loading technique: check

You're not supposed to try and push the bipod down to your target. "Loading" the bipod is actually minimal forward pressure. Doing so with a non-FF handguard may be a different story. I load work up using my bipod, and rear bag. No problems yet. Not even a little.
 
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#20
Very interesting! I'd like to have the opportunity to listen to the whole episode when I get into handloading again. I'm sure a lot has changed over the past few years.

BUT, about loading the bipod on free-float handguards, I think it's heavily dependent on the design of the mount and the chassis. They mentioned that some flex has a significant impact on the harmonics of the barrel system and even describe a method of testing this. The method they describe is not a great one because it does not decouple the effect of loading up the bipod on the shooter. If someone is comfortable and practiced in shooting a particular way in a particular sequence, asking them to dramatically change the way they shoot could very very easily change the groups they produce.

More to the point though, they seem to suggest not loading up on the bipod at all, and it's given me a lot to think about. If I accept that loading the bipod in a consistent manner changes the harmonics of the rifle system in a consistent, then I also have to accept that load development can be tuned *for* a given system to produce consistent results. But without the load, all that force is reduced significantly.

Since I'm just getting started in this adventure it's difficult for me to judge content because I don't know the knowledge or skills to put into practice some of these concepts.

Thanks for pointing me in a fascinating direction with a very interesting resource. So much to learn!
 
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#21
Fauropitotto said:
Very interesting! I'd like to have the opportunity to listen to the whole episode when I get into handloading again. I'm sure a lot has changed over the past few years.

BUT, about loading the bipod on free-float handguards, I think it's heavily dependent on the design of the mount and the chassis. They mentioned that some flex has a significant impact on the harmonics of the barrel system and even describe a method of testing this. The method they describe is not a great one because it does not decouple the effect of loading up the bipod on the shooter. If someone is comfortable and practiced in shooting a particular way in a particular sequence, asking them to dramatically change the way they shoot could very very easily change the groups they produce.

More to the point though, they seem to suggest not loading up on the bipod at all, and it's given me a lot to think about. If I accept that loading the bipod in a consistent manner changes the harmonics of the rifle system in a consistent, then I also have to accept that load development can be tuned *for* a given system to produce consistent results. But without the load, all that force is reduced significantly.

Since I'm just getting started in this adventure it's difficult for me to judge content because I don't know the knowledge or skills to put into practice some of these concepts.

Thanks for pointing me in a fascinating direction with a very interesting resource. So much to learn!
Click to expand...
no problem man I’m glad I could point you. That’s what this website is for!
 
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#22
For load development I am probably the oddball here, I prefer to use a Sinclair Heavy Varmint windage adjustable front rest and a rabbit ear bag.
The only caliber I ever had much discrepancy with when switching between the front rest and bipod was 308win but that was due to poor technique on the bipod and totally on me.
Once I figured out how to load the bipod properly the differences narrowed quite a bit.
 
#23
I noticed that with a bi pod and more face pressure I get groups opening up ,If I load the legs and am not consistent it opens up ,off the bag I seem to shoot better, maybe I relax more and do not realize it. I never hunted with bipods as I always used my stocking cap rolled up or my jacket, I lived in Montana, Eastern part so some of your hunts were in the 3 mile walk and stock, weight matters a bunch and the terrain not always offered the best shooting position. Legs look neat but for me I use them when cleaning. Pete
 
#25
Well for me its the way I shoot, it did not matter which one of my 338 Lapua's i would use 24" or 30 " ,my 300 Win and 300PRC and my 7mm Remy and 7mmPRC they all shot the same not as accurate, the only one that did not was my 6.5 Ackley Improved. I still think that it was the way I loaded the pod, some people just don't shoot the same. When you shoot very expensive rounds like the .338 Lapua, with the price of powder ,brass and premium bullets you shoot the way is most accurate and confident,5 in 4.5" at 1000 yds. why change, Pete
 
#26
Train how you fight. What good is a group you can never reproduce? Field guys wear guns out trying to get 5 to touch, when a no BS moa rig would do more than the internet will believe.

If you're f classin' it.....again, you're playing for money and you know what tools you're allowed.

I can see a palma guy wanting to get on bags for proof....but bags vs bipod....not so much.
 
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#27
Yep shoot what you shoot best with, repeatable day in and day out. With the problem of powders and bullets mounted with where are the primers..................I think anyone with half a brain knows what's going on. My favorite powder was and always will be was Norma 205,in the end of the 60's I started r to use it ,was very plentiful....then it gradually faded away, some said they had pressure problems with it. The only way you get into trouble with it is ya have to shoot at -20 below and 110 to find out how you do things at the bench, if your splitting hairs then some powders you use change, change how you load ,and you play with the loads. I would be willing to bet though I have pushed down the bore more than 2000 rounds through my rifles to shoot with pod's, I finally reached the conclusion that at pushing 80 that with a bi pod I can't shoot the same as with a bag, rolled up hat or coat at 20 below and 110 above. There are better men than me and always will, BUT it is in the trying that you win. Pete
 
#30
If you're not consistent in loading the bipod, you will induce irregularities into your results downrange. Probably more if shooting off of a hard surface like concrete, probably less if shooting off a soft surface like a mat on grass.

Certain things like skis for the feet help to reduce that some.

I find minimal change in group sizes when switching from prone/bipod to off a bench/rest. I much prefer the recoil impulse of shooting prone, but I probably am slightly more consistent with a good rest.

I definitely find myself removing critters more from the prone position than I do off of a front rest, and I kill just as much shooting off a bag as I do a bipod.
 
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#31
Enough Said said:
If 65-pounds of torque at the action screws is not enough for your bipod load, then guess what...
Click to expand...
As always..thanks for injecting some common sense into the discussion.

Most people I run into that have variable results with a bipod simply don't know how to properly load it. They impose so much weight and force that they compromise shot to shot stability and produce less than desirable results which leads to poor conclusions. Whether using handloads or factory, the results are the same.
 
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#32
hero's machine said:
Train how you fight. What good is a group you can never reproduce? Field guys wear guns out trying to get 5 to touch, when a no BS moa rig would do more than the internet will believe.

If you're f classin' it.....again, you're playing for money and you know what tools you're allowed.

I can see a palma guy wanting to get on bags for proof....but bags vs bipod....not so much.
Click to expand...
Sounds solid reasoning, not so sure on the validity of it anymore...... 22 ammo testing centres use machine rests to find the best lot of ammo for your rifle.
No one seems to state that this is the wrong way to find what works?
Just food for thought....
 
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#34
hero's machine said:
In rimfire land the ammo is the limiting factor. Find a 22 that will shoot 3 types of ammo at 1 moa at half the distance we shoot.....and you'll be able to sell it for a million.
Click to expand...
hero's machine said:
Train how you fight. What good is a group you can never reproduce? Field guys wear guns out trying to get 5 to touch, when a no BS moa rig would do more than the internet will believe.

If you're f classin' it.....again, you're playing for money and you know what tools you're allowed.

I can see a palma guy wanting to get on bags for proof....but bags vs bipod....not so much.
Click to expand...
You are showing your lack of experience and knowledge .
 
#35
Go show your sub moa rimfire off over here.....

www.snipershide.com

200 yards with rimfire

I've been sending 50 shots at a single aimpoint at 200 yards with rimfire for a while now. I'm not particularly skilled, or using a competition quality rifle off a high end rest. I shoot a home tweaked CZ 455 Varmint with a couple of Lilja barrels and a Sinclair F-Class bipod off a wood bench...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
#36
Went out with out pod last Friday working up loads and seating depth ansd shot much better ,,one guy said to try a Atlas on the front end,
but, kinda hate to spend $oo.oo and find out I get the same results with my Magpul, Pete
 
#38
Magnum629 said:
Went out with out pod last Friday working up loads and seating depth ansd shot much better ,,one guy said to try a Atlas on the front end,
but, kinda hate to spend $oo.oo and find out I get the same results with my Magpul, Pete
Click to expand...
I have an assortment of Harris bipods of varying height and features that mainly get used for hunting rifles.
They are pretty good for what they are but a bit dated.
My main bipod I use is an Atlas PSR LW17 I bought about five years ago and am glad I made that jump.
After using Harris pods for years the difference is night and day, there is just something different about the way it feels when you start to load into it due to the design compared to a Harris.
They are a little pricey but built very well and very functional and I certainly didn't spend $400 on it.
It seems kind of trivial once you have $3k-$4k in a rifle to quibble over a $300 bipod.
 
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#39
XLR308 said:
I have an assortment of Harris bipods of varying height and features that mainly get used for hunting rifles.
They are pretty good for what they are but a bit dated.
My main bipod I use is an Atlas PSR LW17 I bought about five years ago and am glad I made that jump.
After using Harris pods for years the difference is night and day, there is just something different about the way it feels when you start to load into it due to the design compared to a Harris.
They are a little pricey but built very well and very functional and I certainly didn't spend $400 on it.
It seems kind of trivial once you have $3k-$4k in a rifle to quibble over a $300 bipod.
Click to expand...
Thanks thats the one I bought today Pete
 
#40
The point of load development, for me, is to compare the loads to each other for my rifle. I want to eliminate as much human influence as possible. Bipods don’t work as well as sand bags. I use a mechanical front rest with owl ear type sandbag insert to cradle the forend. Then I use various rear rabbit ear bags and squeeze bags to fit various rifles as needed. I play with the setup until I feel like I could pull the trigger without the gun moving.
I’m always open to suggestions for improvements, but in the end, if my setup induces 1/2 MOA human error, then trying to compare a 0.650” 10 shot group to a 0.900” group is meaningless.

My load development process:
1. Record temp, wind, DA in Kestrel, setup load notes in phone to record date, location, temp, load details
2. Pair Garmin with phone, set Garmin up
3. Set front mechanical rest, drop rifle forend into sand bag several times to seat it firmly.
4. Same thing for rear bag, drop butt stock into it from a few inches to seat it firmly.
5. Check scope parallax, move head side to side to verify reticle is stable.
6. Shoot various loads round robin style.
7. Take breaks after 5-10 shots to let barrel cool and to give my eyes a break.
 
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#41
blue_ridge said:
The point of load development, for me, is to compare the loads to each other for my rifle. I want to eliminate as much human influence as possible. Bipods don’t work as well as sand bags. I use a mechanical front rest with owl ear type sandbag insert to cradle the forend. Then I use various rear rabbit ear bags and squeeze bags to fit various rifles as needed. I play with the setup until I feel like I could pull the trigger without the gun moving.
I’m always open to suggestions for improvements, but in the end, if my setup induces 1/2 MOA human error, then trying to compare a 0.650” 10 shot group to a 0.900” group is meaningless.

My load development process:
1. Record temp, wind, DA in Kestrel, setup load notes in phone to record date, location, temp, load details
2. Pair Garmin with phone, set Garmin up
3. Set front mechanical rest, drop rifle forend into sand bag several times to seat it firmly.
4. Same thing for rear bag, drop butt stock into it from a few inches to seat it firmly.
5. Check scope parallax, move head side to side to verify reticle is stable.
6. Shoot various loads round robin style.
7. Take breaks after 5-10 shots to let barrel cool and to give my eyes a break.
Click to expand...
This makes sense to me, even if I don't use these bags during actual use of the rifle in an activity.

That is to say, yes, isolate everything just to narrow down to the variances of load and get the most consistent performance. In that case, the rifle is set up well.

Which will differ when working another job, such as a positional change in PRS or, in my case, hunting, usually with a tripod and clamp. Or resting on an horizontal tree branch. That is why I think of my shooting system as 1 MOA realistically, even if my 3 shot group is .61 inches. By the time I am in the woods, things are changed from being on a seat at a bench.
 
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#42
We agree on all those points. I load test based on how I intend to use the rifle, BUT, with as much human error removed as possible because I want to know what the rifle shoots best. If it’s a hunting rifle, I’ll do my 10-15 shot groups in increments of 3, so I’m not heating up the barrel. Plus I do t really care if a hunting rifle shoots 10 shots well. I want the data from 10 shots or more, it does no good to shoot them in one string. I let the barrel cool, shoot other guns and then come back to it in 15 minutes.

If I’m testing a match rifle then I want to know how the 15th and 20th consecutive shot compare to the 1st one. So I will do 20 shot strings.
 
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#43
When testing ammo I use a machine rest and rear rabbit bag like im a tactical imposter at a benchrest event...

Then when im testing me I switch to how I would use the thing...

Maybe I don't have enough experience yet, but I haven't seen a great bullet / load etc suddenly turn to crap when I switched between and I can't say I've ever shot more consistently off a tripod than I have off a full rest set up...
 
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