Bolt Action Valkyrie

[mcfred]

I'm so enamored I'd like to do a 22PPC in a repeater

I started down this road in a CZ 527 but stumbled across a deal for a $350 NIB CZ 527 Varmint 1:9tw in .223 Rem. For me the objective was to go *cheap* for volume shooting at the local matches and plinkng out to 1175yd at a friend's place in the mountains. PPC has more capacity than the 223AI and more room in the mag for the long pointy projectiles in a micro-mauser action. However, for me, the inexpensive .223 Rem brass, dies and projectile cost won over the PPC/22 Grendel I was lusting over.

Can your .223 throw 88-95g projos out to 1100+ yds supersonically?

That's easy, at least at my elevation especially with the higher BCs than the ≤77 class projectiles.

The Valk doesn't make much sense to a reloader/wildcatter.

This is true. If you're stuck with the factory offerings then the options are limitless with the .223 Rem, however .223 Rem will never have 'stunning' performance when loaded short OAL with light(er) projectiles and low (SAAMI) pressure. Then again, will the .224 Valk? Is it cost effective in any platform?

There's also the .22 Nosler. No weird boldface similar capacity and performance as the Valk and PPC.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

There's also the .22 Nosler. No weird boldface similar capacity and performance as the Valk and PPC.

I would think, theoretically at least that the 22 Nosler would handily beat the 224V out of a bolt gun. More powder capacity and the common bolt.
It sucks for heavies in an AR mag but all those problems go away in a bolt rifle.

 

[XLR308]

I would think, theoretically at least that the 22 Nosler would handily beat the 224V out of a bolt gun. More powder capacity and the common bolt.
It sucks for heavies in an AR mag but all those problems go away in a bolt rifle.

I agree with this statement although I don't like the rebated rim and single source for oddball brass.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Yeah it seems like Nosler really screwed the pooch there. I'm not sure if it's because they went for varminter speed over long range capability or if their marketing blitz didn't have Federals clout or longevity.
Either way, the brass options are sad enough it'll probably be forgotten pretty soon.

 

[XLR308]

It is sad and the 224V is rapidly taking the piss out of any chances the 22 Nosler had at succes.

 

[Dai Bando]

I asked the guy at the Nosler booth at shot, if the dummy rounds they were handing out were the Valkyrie.

He weren't too happy. Doh!


Bolt gun for a reloader and the .223AI is hard to beat.

With MDT or Accurate Mags dremeled out, a guy has room for the 88's if throated properly.

 

[sandwarrior]

More importantly, can it do it with factory ammo?

The Valk doesn't make much sense to a reloader/wildcatter.

It makes as much sense as any other cartridge. I will say, Hornady is leading the way with affordable off the shelf ammo for long range cartridges. And, it's good ammo. Being able to shoot accurately to a mile with 6.5 Creed. Which is the only factory ammo I've bought in their long range line-up. Accuracy was outstanding for factory ammo.

It is sad and the 224V is rapidly taking the piss out of any chances the 22 Nosler had at succes.

The .223 bolt head is a good idea as it's much more common than the 6.8 SPC bolt head. But, too many reloaders push cartridges too hard, IMO. High pressure show up first in rebated rim cartridges in the groove between the rim and the head. Because, while the head is made heavier usually, it's unsupported. Too high of pressure will scrunch that and make it hard for cases to fit in the case holder when reloading. If you load them to normal pressures like I do with my 6-284, you don't have that problem. I did load some hot cases with that round once, is how I know how it shows up.

As far as not getting it as a bolt gun, just think minimal weight and size for walking around. You can lighten up an AR. You can lighten up a bolt gun more. And this case holds 20% more powder than a .223. So, getting the same performance out of a .223 with equal firearm criteria means you are pushing it too hard.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

And this case holds 20% more powder than a .223. So, getting the same performance out of a .223 with equal firearm criteria means you are pushing it too hard.

This part made me curious so off to google I went. 224V H20 capacity has been tested anywhere from 31 to 34 grains. 223 is all between 30 to 31ish.

 

[lash]

This is true. If you're stuck with the factory offerings then the options are limitless with the .223 Rem, however .223 Rem will never have 'stunning' performance when loaded short OAL with light(er) projectiles and low (SAAMI) pressure. Then again, will the .224 Valk? Is it cost effective in any platform?
...

My experience says yes, it is cost effective in the AR platform. Factory ammo is low cost (American Gunner) or relatively low cost (for match grade), is quite accurate in a good barrel and beats the crap out of any factory offering for .223 at 900-1100 yards (farthest I've shot it).

Understand that I'm at at sea level in Florida, so elevation, temp and humidity are factors that must be considered.

 

[nfngun]

This reminds me of the 6.5 vs .308 debate ... took a few years before competition/target shooter made the switch. Now 6.5 is all over the place .. I'm a huge fan of .308 and never thought Id build a 6.5 but i did ... .308 still has its place better round IMO within 800 yards for practical use.

The Valkyrie is still having growing pains all over the web ... Once twist rates are nailed down and the right bullets are designed around it the cartridge will take off it has allot going for it on paper.

 

[sandwarrior]

This part made me curious so off to google I went. 224V H20 capacity has been tested anywhere from 31 to 34 grains. 223 is all between 30 to 31ish.

My hands on testing showed 38 gr. to the top of the neck vs 30 in the .223. A mathmatical calculation based on case sizes concurs with that. I do realize too the .224V is one mm shorter than the 6.8 SPC case.

I'll weigh them again today in case different brands make a difference in internal capacity.

 

[aTFguy]

I like the idea of short, unconventional cartridges in light bolt actions. I'm starting a build of a 6.5 Grendel on a Remington Model Seven .223 and building a 6.8 SPC on a Howa Mini Action .223 for a buddy. I think the .224 Valkyrie would make a great rifle. You can build on a lot of things, but being so short, you might look at the Remington Model Sevens being clearanced out, right now.

 

[sandwarrior]

So, I'm off. apparently, either I screwed something up when I measured the 6.8 SPC a while back, or I had a high volume case. The cases I weighed today were 95 gr. for the 5.56 (it was a 5.56 case, so .223 might be higher volume) with a full water weight of 125 gr. for 30 gr. of water. The 6.8 was 125 gr. empty and 161 gr. full of water for a net weight of 36 gr. of water. Adjusting mathematically, as I do not have a .224 Valkyrie case should be about 33.5 gr. of water. So about an added 10% as the .224V case is smaller than it's parent case the 6.8 SPC.

But even still with 10% added volume I think you gain some in that the shortened case (and chambering difference) allows the bullet to be seated out a ways instead of a .223 chamber where a 90-95 gr. bullet is seated down in the .223/5.56 case losing volume.

 

[steve123]

Has anybody seen how 224V Starline brass handles pressure compared to the other brands?

I use Starline 223 brass for my 223AI and I must say I'm impressed with how well it handles pressure. Even at 26.3 grains of Varget there was no ejector swipe with 88's. Granted this is at 2.614 OACL in a single shot.

McFred, I'm thinking 22PPC throated out long with 88's and using mag spacer kits would be awesome for a fun repeater. I'm more so looking for good barrel life, super accuracy, low recoil, and of course the factory brass. Heck, it'll be my trainer and match rifle. Self spotting and low cost are becoming top priorities for me at this point in life. For PRS style matches I'm just goofing around anyway since my body and eyes are waning, no chance of winning so I'll just experiment with whatever I feel like.

 

[XLR308]

It makes as much sense as any other cartridge. I will say, Hornady is leading the way with affordable off the shelf ammo for long range cartridges. And, it's good ammo. Being able to shoot accurately to a mile with 6.5 Creed. Which is the only factory ammo I've bought in their long range line-up. Accuracy was outstanding for factory ammo.



The .223 bolt head is a good idea as it's much more common than the 6.8 SPC bolt head. But, too many reloaders push cartridges too hard, IMO. High pressure show up first in rebated rim cartridges in the groove between the rim and the head. Because, while the head is made heavier usually, it's unsupported. Too high of pressure will scrunch that and make it hard for cases to fit in the case holder when reloading. If you load them to normal pressures like I do with my 6-284, you don't have that problem. I did load some hot cases with that round once, is how I know how it shows up.

As far as not getting it as a bolt gun, just think minimal weight and size for walking around. You can lighten up an AR. You can lighten up a bolt gun more. And this case holds 20% more powder than a .223. So, getting the same performance out of a .223 with equal firearm criteria means you are pushing it too hard.

My thoughts and were I ultimately keep coming full circle back to is a .224 or .240 caliber based on an unshortened 68spc case and the shoulder blown out to a 30° for a little extra capacity and brass stability.

This idea seams to make the most sense to me for a bolt gun but would be a full custom wildcat and expensive requiring a custom reamer, custom dies and I would most likely have an extra barrel for a savage chambered ( not really sure it would necessary given the small case volume) and use just for fireforming to save barrel life on the primary barrel.

All that being said would generaly turn off most people given the expense and hassle but it would be a fun project.

 

[sandwarrior]

My thoughts and were I ultimately keep coming full circle back to is a .224 or .240 caliber based on an unshortened 68spc case and the shoulder blown out to a 30° for a little extra capacity and brass stability.

This idea seams to make the most sense to me for a bolt gun but would be a full custom wildcat and expensive requiring a custom reamer, custom dies and I would most likely have an extra barrel for a savage chambered ( not really sure it would necessary given the small case volume) and use just for fireforming to save barrel life on the primary barrel.

All that being said would generaly turn off most people given the expense and hassle but it would be a fun project.

In a way, I agree. While I think this would be a cool cartridge, it doesn't mean it's useful to everyone else. i'd ride this horse all the way to hell. But, in that vein it might be stupid for anyone else to get on that horse and ride it with me.

 

[Hiker12]

I'm still not following the bolt gun 224V thing. I like going off the beaten path more than most, but thats alot of extra work to get 223 Rem performance out of a bolt gun.

What are you looking at far as a lot of extra work??

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Mostly the bolt face, magazines and maybe a custom reamer to take advantage of the extra mag length. These things might all be commonly available in two years but for now you gotta figure it out on your own. It's all sorted pretty well for 223 or 233AI which is already proven to have the performance that you guys are hoping for in 224V, and the brass can be free as a bonus.

 

[Bradu]

Has anybody seen how 224V Starline brass handles pressure compared to the other brands?

I use Starline 223 brass for my 223AI and I must say I'm impressed with how well it handles pressure. Even at 26.3 grains of Varget there was no ejector swipe with 88's. Granted this is at 2.614 OACL in a single shot.

McFred, I'm thinking 22PPC throated out long with 88's and using mag spacer kits would be awesome for a fun repeater. I'm more so looking for good barrel life, super accuracy, low recoil, and of course the factory brass. Heck, it'll be my trainer and match rifle. Self spotting and low cost are becoming top priorities for me at this point in life. For PRS style matches I'm just goofing around anyway since my body and eyes are waning, no chance of winning so I'll just experiment with whatever I feel like.

Damn, I'm at 26.3 grains of varget with an 80 grain a max. I don't have pressure signs but figured I would stop there since I was happy with the velocity it of a 16" barrel.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Mostly the bolt face, magazines and maybe a custom reamer to take advantage of the extra mag length. These things might all be commonly available in two years but for now you gotta figure it out on your own. It's all sorted pretty well for 223 or 233AI which is already proven to have the performance that you guys are hoping for in 224V, and the brass can be free as a bonus.

This is where I end up every time I start thinking about a 224 Valkyrie bolt gun.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Yup, it's how I keep talking myself out of a 22 or 6mm Grendel bolt gun once a month.

 

[craigos]

Anyone know who makes a 1:6.5 twist .224 barrel in a medium or heavy palma, or a marksman?

 

[Hiker12]

Anyone know who makes a 1:6.5 twist .224 barrel in a medium or heavy palma, or a marksman?

Go to Krieger barrels (ready to ship section) and look at .22 cal barrels

 

[flyer]

I've seen some phenomenal long range groups from a 6BR.

It doesn't really fit in a .223 size action but in a standard short action there are magazine kits that you can put in a common magazine and the bolt is the same as .308 so all you have to do is get a barrel chambered.

If you want more off the shelf ammo options, 6mm Dasher will give you a handful of options.

In .224 Valkyrie, you're going to have trouble finding an action with an appropriate bolt, the magazine will probably be an issue unless you start with an uncommon 6.8 SPC chambered rifle and you still need to find someone to turn up a barrel.

Then if you want to shoot factory ammo, you have to be sure your chamber is appropriate (some of the .224 Valkyrie reamers don't do this).

A lot of work for questionable gains.

I know you will soon be able to buy a PVA John Hancock in 6mm Dasher for $2,000 and there are probably cheaper Dashers too.

I think there are some 6.8 SPC Savage rifles out there but they will need a barrel at minimum and aren't really any lighter or smaller than a standard short action size gun so I'm not sure what the point is.

If someone starts making a rifle with all of that figured out in a .223 size action and affordable, then it will make some sense.

Until then, Dasher and 6BR make a lot more sense to me.

 

[mdonnr]

I had luck feeding some dummy rounds out of a 308 AW mag with a HRD Gear mag spacer kit. I’ll know more after I get the whole gun build back from the smith.

I’m running a Kelbly Kodiak action.

 

[steve123]

Damn, I'm at 26.3 grains of varget with an 80 grain a max. I don't have pressure signs but figured I would stop there since I was happy with the velocity it of a 16" barrel.

I'm fairly sure I'd be over 2900 fps in this rifle with 28" barrel at 26.3. At the low node I'm at 2816 fps with 24.8 grains.

 

[Dai Bando]

I've seen some phenomenal long range groups from a 6BR.

It doesn't really fit in a .223 size action but in a standard short action there are magazine kits that you can put in a common magazine and the bolt is the same as .308 so all you have to do is get a barrel chambered.

If you want more off the shelf ammo options, 6mm Dasher will give you a handful of options.

In .224 Valkyrie, you're going to have trouble finding an action with an appropriate bolt, the magazine will probably be an issue unless you start with an uncommon 6.8 SPC chambered rifle and you still need to find someone to turn up a barrel.

Then if you want to shoot factory ammo, you have to be sure your chamber is appropriate (some of the .224 Valkyrie reamers don't do this).

A lot of work for questionable gains.

I know you will soon be able to buy a PVA John Hancock in 6mm Dasher for $2,000 and there are probably cheaper Dashers too.

I think there are some 6.8 SPC Savage rifles out there but they will need a barrel at minimum and aren't really any lighter or smaller than a standard short action size gun so I'm not sure what the point is.

If someone starts making a rifle with all of that figured out in a .223 size action and affordable, then it will make some sense.

Until then, Dasher and 6BR make a lot more sense to me.

Why would a 6br not fit in a short action?

Who is making 6 Dasher ammo off the shelf?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Why would a 6br not fit in a short action?

He said 223 sized action. I'm guessing he's talking about mini actions like the Howa or CZ.

 

[Dai Bando]

 

[Dai Bando]

Is anybody making a mini action with a .473" bolt face?

 

[Bradu]

I'm fairly sure I'd be over 2900 fps in this rifle with 28" barrel at 26.3. At the low node I'm at 2816 fps with 24.8 grains.

I'm at 2858 fps with the 16" barrel and 26.3 grains. I didn't think I would be anywhere near that with the short barrel. It was around 2700 at 25 grains. My fireforming loads at 23 grains were only about 2500 fps so I figured it would be a slow barrel.

 

[flyer]

Is that a Dasher and a .223? I knew they were close in size but never looked in to it that close because the .473" bolt face and .223 magazine seem like they would create conflict.

If someone wanted to put a Dasher in a mini action, that would be even better than .224 Valkyrie.

I think Copper Creek is loading Dasher ammo and LRS has a pre-order. I know a few factory rifles are being chambered in Dasher which will hopefully lead to more box ammo options.

I also saw some 6BR box ammo which might be a fireforming load for Dasher but I'm not sure on that.

When you step away from the AR platform, there are just better options.

 

[260284]

I like my .223 Tikka Varmint with 75 gr ELDM at 2940 fps 24.9 gr of H4895. I am using MDT AICS mags and loading to 2.49". The next barrel will be a .223 AI.

My next match rifle will be a 22BR with 88gr ELDMs at 3050 fps. No fireforming and the same BC as a 6mm 105 hybrid.

 

[Rant Durden]

At this time, I'm not sure the point of any "new" cartridge is breaking new ground as much as evolution. 222 and 222 mag were just fine. So is the 22 hornet, but folks always want more and nobody sells a business model of "good enough." If reloading is an option (or passion), the world is your oyster. But the sheer amount of choices are starting to make my head hurt.

 

[knuckleballz]

22 creedmoor?

 

[BurnOut]

I recently had this argument with myself (224V or .223AI), and decided to go .223AI. Here's what I came up with for reasons why:

• My primary use for this gun is as a bench-rested prairie dog rig; that means light projectiles
  • With light projectiles, 224V doesn't seem to offer anything that 223AI doesn't
• In a pinch, a .223AI can shoot one of (if not THE) most common CF round(s) found in the US
• My action is a Howa mini, and I have measured the internal length of the magazine at 2.34"
  • This shouldn't be a problem with lighter projectiles
  • If I want to shoot heavies, I can single feed
• Brass grows on trees (not quite, but you take the point)
• I may not be able to equal the 224V in terms of MV with the heavies, but I should be able to get damned close; since shooting heavies isn't the primary purpose of this particular gun, I can live with that

What I've honestly determined is that if a person wanted to get the most out of this class of chambering (in terms of ballistic performance) is that the best bet would be to take the 22 Nosler and run it at COALs over AR mag length (2.26) in order to free up powder capacity. Call it 2.5 COAL, and you'd have a pretty respectable setup.

 

[Dai Bando]

At this time, I'm not sure the point of any "new" cartridge is breaking new ground as much as evolution. 222 and 222 mag were just fine. So is the 22 hornet, but folks always want more and nobody sells a business model of "good enough." If reloading is an option (or passion), the world is your oyster. But the sheer amount of choices are starting to make my head hurt.

Can't make this shit up.


I had a guy at a match a few weeks ago, tell me (after I told him I was shooting a 22br) "I gave up on that light weight stuff."

He said he shot a .220 Swift last year.

Me: "Fast twist .220 Swift?"

Him: "Yeah."

Me: "What bullet?"

Him: "55 Noslers."

Me: "What twist?"

Him: "1-14."

SMFH.....

 

[sandwarrior]

Can't make this shit up.


I had a guy at a match a few weeks ago, tell me (after I told him I was shooting a 22br) "I gave up on that light weight stuff."

He said he shot a .220 Swift last year.

Me: "Fast twist .220 Swift?"

Him: "Yeah."

Me: "What bullet?"

Him: "55 Noslers."

Me: "What twist?"

Him: "1-14."

SMFH.....

What does that stand for? Some Mutha Fuckin' Homo's Homies?

I just love it that the research in MANY calibers is showing if you want to go far (,,,I mean REALLY far) you have to have a tight twist so it can stabilize heavy, long for caliber (because of high "r" ogives and and 9* boat-tail) bullets. Yet the Swift is still talked about like it's a 1K+ cartridge. It won't stabilize those long sleek bullets in a 1-14. And, it tears up stuff when someone does get the bug to chamber a tight twist barrel in .220 Swift. It's not cartridge power that does the job it's bullet efficiency. Light bullets are great for inside 1k. Not so great when it comes to super long range.

 

[BurnOut]

What does that stand for? Some Mutha Fuckin' Homo's Homies?

Shaking My Fucking Head

 

[sandwarrior]

Shaking My Fucking Head

That's probably the better response....

 

[Dthomas3523]

So, Impact says they have or can do a Valkyrie bolt. These are the pros I was considering:

No fireforming
Easily use 90gr bullets
223 like recoil
2-3x the barrel life of 6creed
Can keep a few hundred factory ammo around if needed in a pinch

The barrel life + no fireforming + heavies is the most appealing part to me.

What option am I missing that I should consider chambering in over .224 that has these advantages?

I know there are better cartridges ballistically speaking, but the pros listed above appeal to me.

 

[steve123]

So, Impact says they have or can do a Valkyrie bolt. These are the pros I was considering:

No fireforming
Easily use 90gr bullets
223 like recoil
2-3x the barrel life of 6creed
Can keep a few hundred factory ammo around if needed in a pinch

The barrel life + no fireforming + heavies is the most appealing part to me.

What option am I missing that I should consider chambering in over .224 that has these advantages?

I know there are better cartridges ballistically speaking, but the pros listed above appeal to me.

Just a Lapua brass alternative because I'm too used to having my brass last for seemingly forever.

I wonder what the velocity increase will be with OACL in the 2.5" region? Also wonder at those lengths what 224V AI would give as far as velocity?

 

[Raufoss]

So, Impact says they have or can do a Valkyrie bolt. These are the pros I was considering:

No fireforming
Easily use 90gr bullets
223 like recoil
2-3x the barrel life of 6creed
Can keep a few hundred factory ammo around if needed in a pinch

The barrel life + no fireforming + heavies is the most appealing part to me.

What option am I missing that I should consider chambering in over .224 that has these advantages?

I know there are better cartridges ballistically speaking, but the pros listed above appeal to me.

The Only true reason for the Valkyrie is factory ammo and gas gun(arguable).

If you can reload then no point in the valkyrie.

You want a bolt rig, again no point to the valkyrie.

Brass brass brass dude. It's the foundation of success. Federal, Starline and Hornady are shit and the case design is synonymous of shit.

Get yourself something that work like a 22x47L 22BR or 22-204. Easy loading, proven and more capable. Keep the load in the 2900 with 90's or 95 and you are golden. You can even do a short barrel rig and run higher speed than the valkyrie.

Fireforming will occur anyway on first firing so it's a futile argument that consider that everyone is stupid in an era where everyone can educate themself.

It's simple shitty marketing strategy trying to sell you a caliber by floating all the video grapher over YouTube hungry for free gear to review.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The Only true reason for the Valkyrie is factory ammo and gas gun(arguable).

If you can reload then no point in the valkyrie.

You want a bolt rig, again no point to the valkyrie.

Brass brass brass dude. It's the foundation of success. Federal, Starline and Hornady are shit and the case design is synonymous of shit.

Get yourself something that work like a 22x47L 22BR or 22-204. Easy loading, proven and more capable. Keep the load in the 2900 with 90's or 95 and you are golden. You can even do a short barrel rig and run higher speed than the valkyrie.

Fireforming will occur anyway on first firing so it's a futile argument that consider that everyone is stupid in an era where everyone can educate themself.

It's simple shitty marketing strategy trying to sell you a caliber by floating all the video grapher over YouTube hungry for free gear to review.

What’s the barrel life on a 22x47? Generally speaking?

Anything with a 1500 or less and I’ll just stick to the 6 creed or a 6x47.

Basically looking for something I can get more barrel life out of, easy to load for, and a bit better at distance than .223.

I know I’ll be giving up something to the 6creed, or any other 6 out there.

 

[spife7980]

If the valkyrie barrel life really going to be that excellent? A six creed is what, 15-1800?

Two to three times that’s 3k-5400, I retired my 223 at 4500, shoving even more powder down the bore doesn’t seem like it would be conducive to great barrel life.

 

[Raufoss]

What’s the barrel life on a 22x47? Generally speaking?

Anything with a 1500 or less and I’ll just stick to the 6 creed or a 6x47.

Basically looking for something I can get more barrel life out of, easy to load for, and a bit better at distance than .223.

I know I’ll be giving up something to the 6creed, or any other 6 out there.

My 22 creed is giving me 1800 and my last 22BR running just under 3050 I got 2200-2500 on 3 barrels.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If the valkyrie barrel life really going to be that excellent? A six creed is what, 15-1800?

Two to three times that’s 3k-5400, I retired my 223 at 4500, shoving even more powder down the bore doesn’t seem like it would be conducive to great barrel life.

Depends on the barrel. I rarely hear of a 6
Creed over 1500. Typically in the 12-1500. My current barrel is at 900, so I’m already ordering a new one to have ready. I’m putting about 3-400 a month on it.

I may be switching to 6x47 on my third barrel. Have heard some pretty good life out of those here locally.

 

[Dthomas3523]

My 22 creed is giving me 1800 and my last 22BR running just under 3050 I got 2200-2500 on 3 barrels.

22 BR sounds like it might be a winner

 

[Dthomas3523]

If the valkyrie barrel life really going to be that excellent? A six creed is what, 15-1800?

Two to three times that’s 3k-5400, I retired my 223 at 4500, shoving even more powder down the bore doesn’t seem like it would be conducive to great barrel life.

If I could get 3k out of it, it would be worth it. Any less, for me, not good enough to bother with.

 

[lash]

Frank has already said that there are people with over 4000 rounds on a .224 V and still shooting. That’s pretty good in my book.