Bolt Gun load work up

[7mm-08 Freak]

I’ve been using the Berger CBTO method of .010,.050,.090 and .130 off the lands to get a rough estimate of where to start looking for where my sweet spot for seating depth on some new bullets. Today I went to the range and I shoot five of each of the above mentioned. The loads that were .050 and .090 off the lands look like a shotgun pattern at about 3 inches at 100 yards. I’ll include some pictures of the .010 and .130 off the lands from one extreme to the other LOL. Which group do I start working with in your opinion and why? The .010 group started off horrible and the last 3 are in one ragged hole. The .130 jump loads are pretty good for a hunting rifle but man they look funny loaded so far in the brass.

 

[kthomas]

It would be interesting to see what 5x5's of each seating depth (0.010, 0.050, 0.090 and 0.130) would produce as a result.

Honestly, one 5 shot group isn't really enough to make any determination in which way to go.

I typically load my hybrids 10-20 thou off the lands and leave it at that.

 

[kthomas]

OR...

You could just get a tuner and completely skip load development.

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

It would be interesting to see what 5x5's of each seating depth (0.010, 0.050, 0.090 and 0.130) would produce as a result.

Honestly, one 5 shot group isn't really enough to make any determination in which way to go.

I typically load my hybrids 10-20 thou off the lands and leave it at that.

Those are 5 shot groups .050 and .090 were so bad i didn't even post those. I want to say that the bigger group of .900" with the last 3 at .260" would be what I should work with but I am not a expert at this.

 

[kthomas]

Those are 5 shot groups .050 and .090 were so bad i didn't even post those.

I know.

They are one (1) 5 shot group each. That's not enough to tell the full story. Any errors can amplify the results in a way in which the analysis would be really skewed.

I've had a lot of luck loading hybrids close to the lands. I've never experimented with longer jumps like 0.130.

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

I know.

They are one (1) 5 shot group each. That's not enough to tell the full story. Any errors can amplify the results in a way in which the analysis would be really skewed.

I've had a lot of luck loading hybrids close to the lands. I've never experimented with longer jumps like 0.130.

Have you seen this method? https://bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/

 

[kthomas]

Have you seen this method? https://bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/

I haven't seen that specific method from Berger per say, it seems to be built around the VLD bullets which I don't use. I pretty much only use Berger Hybrids.

I would be interested to see how repeatable that test is, but determining that would require much more rounds than what Berger is prescribing here.

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

I haven't seen that specific method from Berger per say, it seems to be built around the VLD bullets which I don't use. I pretty much only use Berger Hybrids.

I would be interested to see how repeatable that test is, but determining that would require much more rounds than what Berger is prescribing here.

Agreed but im loading for a 200yds hunting rifle. If I can get sub 1/2" groups at 100 I am happy. I am close now. it just drives me nuts to have a .130" jump

 

[kthomas]

Agreed but im loading for a 200yds hunting rifle. If I can get sub 1/2" groups at 100 I am happy. I am close now. it just drives me nuts to have a .130" jump

Gotcha.

I don't have any real experience with the VLDs. I've always used Hybrids, and they have worked and pretty much any distance I jump them from the lands.

If it was me performing this test for VLDs, I would shoot a few more groups of 0.010 and 0.130 and go from there. One 5 round group of each is not enough to determine anything. Heck, I would do a few groups of the other jump lengths as well.

 

[diggler1833]

I don't trust a single group, ever. I'm even less trusting of a cluster of three shots.

I also don't care what the deer think about regarding how stupid my loads might look with the bullet seated deeply. If that is where it works best without pressure/velocity issues, that's where I'm loading at.

If it were me, I'd shoot another (5) at .130 off. If it was similar to your first experience at that depth, I'd load that up again and shoot another (5) at 3 - 400 yards. If it held up again, I'd consider myself fairly well dialed in.

In my personal experiences, seating depth matters. However, I've not had such wild extremes as the OP is reporting.

 

[Aftermath]

I shoot LOTS of VLD's. I use them almost exclusively. .223, 6mm, 7mm and .30. It's been my experience that they prefer to be real close.

What I do now is I determine as best as I can the place where the bullet is touching the lands. I load powder charges at that seating depth, looking for pressure as I go. I like to shoot bullets as fast as I can but remain accurate. So I find that first pressure sign and then back off a hair. Then I start seating depth tests by loading 10 each backing away 0.005" at a time, 10 depths. 0.005, 0.010, 0.015, 0.020, 0.025, etc. When you start getting near the sweet spot, it's real obvious...or it's real obvious that it's not. Just pull the bullets or seat them deeper, whatever is more appropriate. Then I go back and do finer adjustments. I can usually find a good combination before I have fired 100 rounds down the tube.

I have a 280 Ackley that shoots the 140 VLD -0.008", 2 different 300 WM like the 210's at -0.010, 223 Ackley and 80's at -.0.003", 243 Ackley with the 105's at -0.004"

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

I don't trust a single group, ever. I'm even less trusting of a cluster of three shots.

I also don't care what the deer think about regarding how stupid my loads might look with the bullet seated deeply. If that is where it works best without pressure/velocity issues, that's where I'm loading at.

If it were me, I'd shoot another (5) at .130 off. If it was similar to your first experience at that depth, I'd load that up again and shoot another (5) at 3 - 400 yards. If it held up again, I'd consider myself fairly well dialed in.

In my personal experiences, seating depth matters. However, I've not had such wild extremes as the OP is reporting.

I don't ever trust a single group either I just use it as a test to go back and see if I can repeat it another day. You have got to start somewhere.

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

I shoot LOTS of VLD's. I use them almost exclusively. .223, 6mm, 7mm and .30. It's been my experience that they prefer to be real close.

What I do now is I determine as best as I can the place where the bullet is touching the lands. I load powder charges at that seating depth, looking for pressure as I go. I like to shoot bullets as fast as I can but remain accurate. So I find that first pressure sign and then back off a hair. Then I start seating depth tests by loading 10 each backing away 0.005" at a time, 10 depths. 0.005, 0.010, 0.015, 0.020, 0.025, etc. When you start getting near the sweet spot, it's real obvious...or it's real obvious that it's not. Just pull the bullets or seat them deeper, whatever is more appropriate. Then I go back and do finer adjustments. I can usually find a good combination before I have fired 100 rounds down the tube.

I have a 280 Ackley that shoots the 140 VLD -0.008", 2 different 300 WM like the 210's at -0.010, 223 Ackley and 80's at -.0.003", 243 Ackley with the 105's at -0.004"

I don't care how fast they are. I just want em all in one hole if possible I too have a 280 Ackley and haven't worked up a load for it. Id like to use the Game King 160 HPBT from Sierra. I have found all the Sierra 140s to be very accurate in the 7mm-08 with RL16 or H4350

 

[Im2bent]

Why vlds for a 200 yard hunting round?
NVM I see they have a vld hunting bullet.

 

[Aftermath]

I don't care how fast they are. I just want em all in one hole if possible I too have a 280 Ackley and haven't worked up a load for it. Id like to use the Game King 160 HPBT from Sierra. I have found all the Sierra 140s to be very accurate in the 7mm-08 with RL16 or H4350

I am with you. I am looking for accuracy. Fast. All of these rifles shoot real small groups. Here is my 30 Nosler shooting the 210 VLD

 

[Aftermath]

My 280 shoots 140's at 3250 fps. It's my goto for deer. I shot a coyote at something like 850 with it once, I don't remember exactly, but it downed him and I don't think he even twitched.

 

[Aftermath]

Here's 10 80 gr VLD's out of the 223 Ackley at 100 yards.

You can definitely get the VLD's to shoot well.

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

Why vlds for a 200 yard hunting round?
NVM I see they have a vld hunting bullet.

I'm not shooting VLDs. that process works for any bullet I have tried it with this is the first time ive had two decent groups with that process. Been using that process for 10 years. I am shooting Sierras

 

[Aftermath]

HAHAHA!!!
Well....I'm not sure why we were all thinking VLD's.

 

[Rob01]

I'm not shooting VLDs. that process works for any bullet I have tried it with this is the first time ive had two decent groups with that process. Been using that process for 10 years. I am shooting Sierras

You have been wasting a LOT of bullets. LOL I can see why Berger recommends that method as you go through boxes of bullets trying to find "the OAL".

I load at .020" off if it will fit in the mag and is in the case enough. Only times I went deeper is if it won't fit in the mag. At .130" are you below SAAMI spec OAL?

 

[FuhQ]

OR...

You could just get a tuner and completely skip load development.

How much did Erik pay you to say that?

 

[kthomas]

How much did Erik pay you to say that?

The tuner companies definitely love me...

 

[FuhQ]

The tuner companies definitely love me...

Having owned several Brownings with BOSS systems, I'm a firm believer that "tuners" are snake-oil bullshit, but that's just my experiences. LOL

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

You have been wasting a LOT of bullets. LOL I can see why Berger recommends that method as you go through boxes of bullets trying to find "the OAL".

I load at .020" off if it will fit in the mag and is in the case enough. Only times I went deeper is if it won't fit in the mag. At .130" are you below SAAMI spec OAL?

There is no such thing as wasted bullets IMO. Trigger time is good time. I learn something every time I shoot. Been reloading for 40 years and and found SAAMI spec means nothing on COAL to me if it will shoot accurately, run in the gun and there is no high pressure. At .020 off how many of your loads are longer than SAMMI spec and what difference does it make if your gun likes it?

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

Having owned several Brownings with BOSS systems, I'm a firm believer that "tuners" are snake-oil bullshit, but that's just my experiences. LOL

Not a fan of the boss either. I shoot suppressed 95% of the time

 

[Rob01]

There is no such thing as wasted bullets IMO. Trigger time is good time. I learn something every time I shoot. Been reloading for 40 years and and found SAAMI spec means nothing on COAL to me if it will shoot accurately, run in the gun and there is no high pressure. At .020 off how many of your loads are longer than SAMMI spec and what difference does it make if your gun likes it?

Wasn't asking about at .020" off but at .130" off as jamming a bullet deeper into the case than SAAMI does mean something for case capacity and pressure. SAAMI is used as a baseline.

And if you are happy spending money on bullets for working up a load then have at it. I usually get a load worked up in my rifle within 50 rounds so more bullets to shoot accurately later. I don't like burning out barrels looking for "the load".

 

[Rob01]

The tuner companies definitely love me...

They do work when used properly. I have tried them on both rimfire and centerfire and have become a believer in my testing. Don't use all of the EC but like the ATS too.

 

[Maurygold]

I’ve been using the Berger CBTO method of .010,.050,.090 and .130 off the lands to get a rough estimate of where to start looking for where my sweet spot for seating depth on some new bullets. Today I went to the range and I shoot five of each of the above mentioned. The loads that were .050 and .090 off the lands look like a shotgun pattern at about 3 inches at 100 yards. I’ll include some pictures of the .010 and .130 off the lands from one extreme to the other LOL. Which group do I start working with in your opinion and why? The .010 group started off horrible and the last 3 are in one ragged hole. The .130 jump loads are pretty good for a hunting rifle but man they look funny loaded so far in the brass.

Vld shoots best jammed. If you don’t want to lightly jam for hunting shoot as close yo the lands as you can with reliable extraction

 

[6BRABlackbear]

I shoot 90 g VLD’s in 223 jammed .010” into lands. Performs good for me.

 

[Cody S]

took me all of 50 shots to create a 6mm creedmoor load, I will go through the process with you.
I have a very long .210 ish freebore, so I started with 109 hybrids at 60 thou off, which has them just above the neck shoulder junction. Why? idk, it just makes me happy so that's where I started. 20 off, 40 off, 80 off, would have all worked as well too I'd expect.
next charge weights with my powder.
started at 40, worked up in .5 grain increments until it shot as good as I wanted.
the highest one I tried shot a tiny one hole group for 7 shots and had an SD of 6 was 42.5gr of n555 under a 109 hybrid, lapua 6 creed brass and fed 205m primer. 3012fps avg 26" barrel.
I got these charge weight ranges from vihtavouris loading book.
I made 49 bullets because I had 50 brass cases prepped. 7 rounds of each load.
literally all 7 shots were sub 1/4 territory.
that's now my new load for the duration of this barrel.
took me 50 shots, after an initial 50 or so of break in and cleaning.
I'd bet 1$ it'll shoot in the next barrel with the same or similar chamber too.
could I go and tweak the load? probably.
but honestly I'm not sure how I could ever shoot a smaller group, short of getting a nice mechanical rest so I'm not going to bother, it was that good.

 

[FisherT&C]

There are a lot of ways to do load development and most are just a different path to the same destination.
I believe the most rudimentary component to loading is finding the right powder for the bullet in your barrel. I would try at least 3 powders for a bullet before deciding a barrel doesn't like a bullet.

My objective is to find something forgiving that shoots good all the time. Take 3 powders and pick a charge weight from each at about the speed you want to go and then shoot 3 ten shot groups of each is a good place to start. I'd take the group that's 1 MOA or less and start manipulating the other variables to tighten it up.

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

Wasn't asking about at .020" off but at .130" off as jamming a bullet deeper into the case than SAAMI does mean something for case capacity and pressure. SAAMI is used as a baseline.

And if you are happy spending money on bullets for working up a load then have at it. I usually get a load worked up in my rifle within 50 rounds so more bullets to shoot accurately later. I don't like burning out barrels looking for "the load".

I knew exactly what you meant (.130). Case capacity is not an issue it just looked funny to me seated that deep. I am 20 bullets into this. I don't think 20 bullets is wasting bullets. Less than 1/4 of a box! I am not loading a barrel burner either. Barrel life on a hunting rifle is not an issue with me. I tend to load on the low side anyway. I have 2 decent 100 yd groups that I can work with 20 pills into the study of said gun. I understand all of what you are saying above thank you for the input. I will be happy with a 2" group at 300 yards when im done. It is 103 here today will shoot some more when it cools off a little and post pictures If I get it worked out.

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

took me all of 50 shots to create a 6mm creedmoor load, I will go through the process with you.
I have a very long .210 ish freebore, so I started with 109 hybrids at 60 thou off, which has them just above the neck shoulder junction. Why? idk, it just makes me happy so that's where I started. 20 off, 40 off, 80 off, would have all worked as well too I'd expect.
next charge weights with my powder.
started at 40, worked up in .5 grain increments until it shot as good as I wanted.
the highest one I tried shot a tiny one hole group for 7 shots and had an SD of 6 was 42.5gr of n555 under a 109 hybrid, lapua 6 creed brass and fed 205m primer. 3012fps avg 26" barrel.
I got these charge weight ranges from vihtavouris loading book.
I made 49 bullets because I had 50 brass cases prepped. 7 rounds of each load.
literally all 7 shots were sub 1/4 territory.
that's now my new load for the duration of this barrel.
took me 50 shots, after an initial 50 or so of break in and cleaning.
I'd bet 1$ it'll shoot in the next barrel with the same or similar chamber too.
could I go and tweak the load? probably.
but honestly I'm not sure how I could ever shoot a smaller group, short of getting a nice mechanical rest so I'm not going to bother, it was that good.

That is close to what I did several guns ago. I get tired of messing or looking at a gun and get another. MOST of the time the new gun will shoot close to what the last one shot well. almost everything I shoot likes H4350 or RL16. I have a lot of both so I don't stray too far from them. I am 20 bullets into this study so I don't feel im wasting a lot of bullets or powder as I have 2 decent groups to work with Two of the 4 groups were horrible. ill probably go with .900" group as the last 3 are .260 MOA I am not the best shooter but far from the worst. I can consistently hit an 8" gong at 500 in mild wind That is MOFP (minute of frying pan) accuracy IMO. These guns I have will never be tack drivers

 

[Cody S]

I should have mentioned at this point all our rifles have gucci cut-rifled barrels with pro chamber jobs, so they tend to be very forgiving for load dev.

 

[ma smith]

That is close to what I did several guns ago. I get tired of messing or looking at a gun and get another. MOST of the time the new gun will shoot close to what the last one shot well. almost everything I shoot likes H4350 or RL16. I have a lot of both so I don't stray too far from them. I am 20 bullets into this study so I don't feel im wasting a lot of bullets or powder as I have 2 decent groups to work with Two of the 4 groups were horrible. ill probably go with .900" group as the last 3 are .260 MOA I am not the best shooter but far from the worst. I can consistently hit an 8" gong at 500 in mild wind That is MOFP (minute of frying pan) accuracy IMO. These guns I have will never be tack drivers

Berger loads 140 factory hybrids at 2.805 or 2.82 COAL
The jump is crazy. I'd have to check my notes
...but its not 10-20 thou...