Gunsmithing Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

[SScott]

I recieved a call at the store the other day from a customer, who happens to be a welder and a shooter. He was looking for a "bad ass tig welder", I didn't exactly fit the description but I couldn't resist on asking why.
It seems he got a wild hare and welded a new bolt handle on his Rem 700 with a Mig/wire feed welder. That in itself was pretty funny, what was even more funny was that he had it at the range and after a few shots the handle fell off and he had a spent cartridge in the chamber and couldn't pry it open with his knife,(this is the part when I really started to laugh to myself.)
It was getting close to lunch so I told him to bring it down and I would see what I could do. It took three tries to get that 1/16 tungesten in there enough and weld on the handle so it would open the bolt without hinging off. (remember there is very little room between the bolt shroud and the action, I did have to take his scope off to get access in there in the first place).
After I get it apart I broke the handle off again so I could clean up his and my crappy welds, I also took the internals out of the bolt so we could prep it for the new installation.
At this point I am pretty happy that we got the bolt out and I was going to get my first chance to weld an aftermarket handle on a Rem 700. I remember seeing that most people use some sort of a jig to do this, but hey, we didn't have one of those so we just put the bolt back in the rifle and he held it where he liked it and I tacked it up. I cycled it a few times and every thing looked like it was good to go, so I welded that sucker all the way around, I must say, I was pretty proud of myself. We let it cool and put it back together, the first thing we encountered was that the handle had to be pushed forward to get it to close, after looking at it I noticed that he had did a little custom grinding on the end of the bolt when he welded it the night before, I was thinking that he took off too much material out of the cocking detent.
He was happy with it and I had to get back to work as I had been fooling with this thing for 2 hours, at this point he never offers to pay me and I am feeling like I have been taken a little for granted.
The real funny part happens when he mounts his scope and the handle hits the scope. I felt a little bad, but my buddy reminded me that he didn't pay me for any of my work so what the hell.
I hope you all enjoyed this as much as I did.
SScott

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Im confused...he welded just a handle on and it caused the factory remington soldering to fail AT the bolt? Or did he cut it off so short that it broke off at the stock?

 

[SScott]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

He removed the factory handle himself, he heated it up until the solder melted, then welded the new handle on using the action as his jig, he then had to grind on it pretty good to get it to work. I also think he had the "push to close" problem when he was done with the original job.
SScott

 

[Sportin Wood]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Hopefully he was from your side of the state....

 

[usmcMT]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Send the whole thing back to Remmy. They will fit a new bolt, head space it and get the primary extraction to what its suppose to be. May not do it for free though. When you get it back, have on of the good guy's here put a permanent fix on it...

 

[SScott]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usmcMT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Send the whole thing back to Remmy. They will fit a new bolt, head space it and get the primary extraction to what its suppose to be. May not do it for free though. When you get it back, have on of the good guy's here put a permanent fix on it... </div></div>
I agree the bolt is now a POS, in my opinion it is a good chance to buy a new one with a tactical handle already on it.
SScott

 

[longguntoter]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

After all the heating and grinding between welds and him heating it up just to get the original off, I don't think I would trust that steel that the bolt is made of anymore. JMHO.

 

[mm509]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

PRICELESS!!! This is why there are professionals in every trade. I have welded a couple of these, but the smith always has them "tacked" together prior to me welding. I think I have him trained as to where to put the tacks now.

 

[monteboy84]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Do you have pictures of any of this?

-matt

 

[msalm]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

You could have just drilled a hole in the handle itself where it wraps around the bolt and filled the hole with the tig to get it to 'stick'.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

If I had to send a bolt out for someone to tig it, would using the 8-40 screw install "handle reinforcement" service some offer to hold the handle in place work just fine instead of a tac weld or solder?

I may have a couple to send out here soon...

I could send em out with two 8-40s holding the handle in the correct place. Would the welder be happy with that?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Ok if a guy sent it in all clean, with two 6-48 or 8-40 screws holding it down..


The welder would obviously be happy then right?

 

[308nate]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Keith,

I have never really liked the concept of screws holding the handle on. I have seen handles that have been screwed on that come off a fair bit easier than soldered on handles, also by drilling the hole in the bolt handle you are weakening the handle itself. I have seen the handles break out due to a screw hole install. It would be best if using the screws to hold the handle on if they kept their original temper as the softer they get the more they are going to stretch the more you use the handle. i still feel the best way to install a handle is to either just solder it on with 100% solder joint or to tig it on with a double pass under the handle where it meets the body, first pass just blending the metal second pass adding material as well as a full weld on the back side of the handle and under the bolt handle tail. If you are going to put screws in I personally feel it is best to put them in after the handle is installed.
FWIW,
308nate

 

[308nate]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems some should just add KNOBs!!!!! </div></div>


DANS40X,

you're a funny guy. Seems some should keep their mouths closed and keep their fingers off the key board unless they can say something positive or offer constructive input..............


308nate

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

So if a guy takes the handle off, cleans everything up for the welder, then stands there with it timed in the action infront of him...

How does he attach the handle to send it out for tig welding? If he cant tac weld it. I know the welder can just use his jig for general placement but then its not timed/fit to your action after truing and whatever work.

How do you pin em down to send em out for welding?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

I dont want to send out the action with the bolt. Just the bolt, with the handle pinned in place.

308nate I agree the 8-40 screws arent adding much strength, and after drilling out the silver solder under them I wonder if they're much stronger at all.
But the point here is just for them to hold it in place so the welder knows where I want it placed. After its welded its not going anywhere and the 8-40 screw head looks kool.

Do people send the rifle or action with the bolt? Or is the welder just using a jig to put it in the generally correct place?


Edited, found his web address. And the thread from a year ago.

https://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1758409

Guy I'll be calling:
http://www.straightshotgunsmithing.com/

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Shipping a bolt to Fairbanks AK costs a whopping $5.25 in a small USPS flat rate box. Even better, ship it to the right guy in Fairbanks and it comes back perfectly timed and welded! Also, no need to strip out the solder prior to shipping so you can put the screws back in your scope base--must be some magic in that AK air.

Dan- Strip the paint? I thought all you needed to do was turn up the heat

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Here's the guy I'll be sending to if he is accepting them:

http://www.straightshotgunsmithing.com/




Dan,
We offer free repair if a stud ever breaks that we installed. Have never gotten one call or email saying a stud has broken from use or even hitting it with anything. Only one stud has ever broken period, and it was ran over.


Here's a good thread on this.(handle welding)
https://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1758409

 

[bcw1284]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

1) Dan has a long track record of being a douche, especially on this board. I'm surprised he's still allowed to hang around, my advice would be to ignore his incessant spouting of bullshit.

2) you don't weld on a handle "where you want it", you weld it where the bolt is timed right

3) I've done a knob with a MIG, it's not easy but it can be done if you are very careful. Grinding requires patience, sounds like your buddy got overzealous.

4) The Remington 700 bolt is an inferior design to start with, and the often piss-poor application of their solder doesn't help. Add in an idiot and failure is bound to occur at some point. welding or screwing the handle on can provide a cheap fix, but PTG makes the ultimate answer: one-piece bolts that are already threaded for knobs and have m-16 type extractors.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcw1284</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) Dan has a long track record of being a douche, especially on this board. I'm surprised he's still allowed to hang around, my advice would be to ignore his incessant spouting of bullshit.</div></div>

We mock that which we do not understand. Have you ever ACTUALLY used a bolt on which Dan worked. Clearly you have not as you'd not be so butthurt by his salty comments.

Does uncomparable work...freely offers advice...fast efficient and dependable...best of all does not suffer fools lightly...you are right BCW with that kind of a "track record" he should be censored.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Button &/or c'sunk head screws are/were not designed to be put in shear applications-tension only.</div></div>

what screws <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> designed to be loaded in shear? are any of them? when you tighten a screw, the tension keeps two parts clamped together. the friction between the parts is what keeps them from moving when loaded in shear. <span style="font-style: italic">in general</span>, screws and bolts are not for shear loading.

not that i am advocating countersinking a screw or screws through the handle into the bolt body, but in my opinion the screw loading is correct. as the handle is worked, it is trying to pull away from the bolt body, loading the screws in tension. any shear force between the bolt handle and bolt body would be lessened by the added clamping force of the screw.

 

[bcw1284]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
We mock that which we do not understand. Have you ever ACTUALLY used a bolt on which Dan worked. Clearly you have not as you'd not be so butthurt by his salty comments.

Does uncomparable work...freely offers advice...fast efficient and dependable...best of all does not suffer fools lightly...you are right BCW with that kind of a "track record" he should be censored.</div></div>

woah, easy there killer, did I hurt your little feelers? No, I don't use Dan's stuff but if you'd stop with your pedantic bullshit for a minute and READ what I wrote, you'd get it. I didn't say he does bad work, did I? NO. I said he's an asshole, and has consistently acted that way on the Hide. Nobody said his work is inferior, but for a guy trying to sell a service, you'd think he might be more respectful of his customer base.

I understand him just fine, his actions on this board speak volumes about his character, IMHO. That doesn't mean he's a bad welder, but I don't do business with people like that, so I won't be using his stuff. I am quite capable of doing it myself, actually, but if I required assistance i'd send it to Nate Dagley or really anyone else who acted professional and courteous.

If you're going to try to call me out, you ought to know enough to bring your A-game. The value of a person's product/service does not give him license to berate others simply because he has a superiority complex. Because he's fixed shitty bolts makes him vindicated to verbally assail others? On what planet!?!?

Even if I owned one of his bolts, I still would not appreciate his attitude. You obviously do, but hey, birds of a feather. You're really refuting your own post just by mocking me, since you clearly don't understand me and what I value. I'm not so shallow that I am placated by a nice shiny product and therefore do not care about the values/ethics of the mfg. Clearly, YOU are the one who does not understand.

Lastly, what censorship? Nobody said a mod should follow him around and make his posts PC. I said he shouldn't play here until he learns that this isn't a sandbox for him to shit in, and he should be more respectful in the way he disagrees with people. If you really understood him though, you'd know that this is all just a pathetic attempt to draw attention in order to both satisfy his narcissism and to attract attention to his services, which btw, he peddles here without being a vendor.

That's it, i've really got nothing further to add because i'm not going to continue to feed both of your desires for internet conflict, just so you can be attention whores.

 

[308nate]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if a guy takes the handle off, cleans everything up for the welder, then stands there with it timed in the action infront of him...

How does he attach the handle to send it out for tig welding? If he cant tac weld it. I know the welder can just use his jig for general placement but then its not timed/fit to your action after truing and whatever work.

How do you pin em down to send em out for welding? </div></div>


Kieth,
I'm not sure how you should hold the handle to the
bolt body to properly locate it on the bolt body and then send it out to be welded.I have never felt comfortable attaching a handle off somebodies measurements, not that it can't be done correctly, there are just so many issues in timing the handle that I have seen over the years, that I just really like to have the receiver in hand when attaching a handle. Some of the problems I have seen is that Remington has changed their bolt handle mold several times over the years. some have a much steeper cam angle than others. PTG handles have also had the cam position changed at least once that I know of. All the new PTG handles (as of the last 1-1/2 - 2 years) have been great to work with. The ones before that seem to have the cam position to far in the clockwise position. There are also many other aspects to look into. Depending on the action
sometimes the front of the tail of the handle will hit the receiver before the front of the arm on the handle hits the receiver, also when the bolt handle is cammed down it is important to verify that the cocking piece will not hit the parallel to bolt body straight milled edge opposing the cocking ramp in the bolt body as well as some other aspects to take into consideration,but I don't have the time to go into detail right now. There are just so many variable I have seen that I feel most confident of the outcome when I have the receiver in hand.


Question: How are you holding the bolt handle to body in proper placement while you drill and tap and counter sink the screw head? Have you considered getting into doing your own tig welding in shop?


308nate


P.S I have heard and read lots of good things about your work. If you ever consider your own tig weldong I would sure be open to helping with what I know about it.

All the best,
Nate

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308nate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question: How are you holding the bolt handle to body in proper placement while you drill and tap and counter sink the screw head? Have you considered getting into doing your own tig welding in shop?
</div></div>

I install the 8-40s into bolts with handles already attached, usually from factory. So solder is holding it while I do the install. I only do one screw, through the thick part. I countersink the head, and drill out the handle material with the 8-40 through drill size so there are only threads in the body, and maybe one or two threads in the handle. This way its just pulling the body to the head, holding it to the handle. I tighten the screws down TIGHT. I'll start doing it with the torque wrench so its measurable and consistent. But they're tight. How much strength it adds, I don't now. But I think it helps a little, looks kool, and I don't see why it wouldn't be a great way to hold a handle in place to send off for tig welding.


I'll call http://www.straightshotgunsmithing.com/
I'll be sending out my own rifle bolt at first to try it out.
I'll call ahead to see what he requires or prefers. I dont want to send the rifles out like I said. Id rather just send bolts out with the handles screwed on where I want them, and get them back welded. I can clean up the welds all the way around the handle pretty damn well so it should look great.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

drilling and countersinking a screw into an already small part is creating a stress riser and seriously reducing the cross section. if there is enough force to separate the solder/weld, the handle will probably fail at that countersunk hole. personally wouldn't do it.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

I put one screw in through the thick portion of the handle. The only strength you're losing is the silver solder bring drilled out.
The threads, except for maybe two, are only in the bolt body.
The screw is pulling the body to the handle with more holding force than that tiny area of solder. Thats my bet anyways.


I can see arguing against 3 screws, but one through the thick part doesnt seem it would weaken the handle in any way.

Seems like solder and one screw properly through the thick part of the handle would be the next best thing to welding.

Havent done any tests breaking handle off after screwing them.
Maybe I'll do that soon. Ive broken off a soldered handle to test the strength of the 10-32 studs I use. The solder broke way before the stud. So my guess is with an 8-40 in there, it wouldnt have broken quite as easy.


But who knows.

Some like em. Some dont.

I think they look kool and may strengthen it some. I have one in my own handle... which I will be having welded anyways once I get some funds.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

how much cross section of the handle did you remove to countersink the screw? you honestly don't think you lost any strength there?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Yes that part lost strength, but I cant see a handle snapping there.

It looks like there's enough meat around that screw that the handle is fine. I know removing material reduces strength, but I never imagined it breaking right there.


Are there reports of that happening?

 

[300sniper]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

if there was enough force applied to it that would separate a good soldering job, i can.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Im sure we'll find out one day. If one breaks

 

[SScott]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I had to send a bolt out for someone to tig it, would using the 8-40 screw install "handle reinforcement" service some offer to hold the handle in place work just fine instead of a tac weld or solder?

I may have a couple to send out here soon...

I could send em out with two 8-40s holding the handle in the correct place. Would the welder be happy with that? </div></div>
I was gone all weekend and it looks like I missed some conversation.
The answer to your question is "yes" screw the bolt handle on where you want it. When the weldor gets it he will remove the screw, heat up the bolt to get the solder off of it (it all has to come off for proper weld prep) then bevel the bolt so there is a place for the weld to go, put the screw back in and weld her up.
Guys, I didn't take any pictures of it because I was at work, but the welding looked great, I was only unhappy with the timing issue and cocking problems that were brought about by the owner and his atttempt at installing it.
SScott

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

if the bolt is clean and free of solder, it is another two minutes to pull the screw and tig up the hole while plug welding it to the bolt.....should be a non issue. I would prefer it that way with the handle pre located by the customer and the screw there to eliminate any warpage.

 

[308nate]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Keith,
I was mostly curious how you hold your handles to the body in a properly timed position on like a new PTG handle or a handle that has been removed for re-attachment. If all you want is the handles attach in the same position as Remington has in the factory attachment that is really easy to do in a jig and having the screw really wouldn't be helpful...at least in my method.

The problem with keeping Remington's original position is that 90% of them can have the timing improved drastically, especially if the action has been trued by an over zealous gunsmith.
This would require removing it and relocating it before you drill and tap the screw. My question is how will you hold the handle to the body in this instance?

308nate

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

Here's how I hold the bolt handle on the bolt body to check fit before welding.

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/rrrausch/b5b5a98e.mp4

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

308Nate,

We remove as little as possible from the bolt lugs and the receiver lugs. As soon as its 100% cleaned up, we stop. I see some people go .001' or .002" past... we dont.

In cases where a lot has to be removed to clean up a shit bolt or receiver, Id send the whole rifle and bolt to a welder so he could move it forward to the correct place.

Or replace it with an aftermarket bolt that has caught my eye, other than PTGs.


If I had a PTG handle in one hand and a PTG bolt in the other, I'd send it out to a welder with the action it belonged to.


So every case will be different it seems.

But for bolts like my 243, which are trued and timed fine but are factory soldered, sending it out for welding intrigues me. I can put a screw through it like in the pic a few posts above, the welder can break it apart and clean it, then screw my screw back in and it will be where I want it before welding. All without sending out the rifle.


Paying $50 or so for a handle welding job is one thing.
But paying to ship a rifle two ways, costing about $150 total, is completely another.

I cant afford to be sending out whole rifles or even actions.

I need a welder that will weld the handle to the bolt where I've screwed it down.

If its common practice to send the entire rifle or at least the action out for having this service done, I wont be doing it. Too much money.

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Bolt handle weld "Fail", kinda

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Paying $50 or so for a handle welding job is one thing.
But paying to ship a rifle two ways, costing about $150 total, is completely another.

I cant afford to be sending out whole rifles or even actions.

I need a welder that will weld the handle to the bolt where I've screwed it down.

If its common practice to send the entire rifle or at least the action out for having this service done, I wont be doing it. Too much money. </div></div>

Seriously, just buy a good tig welder (not a harbor freight POS) and learn to weld.
After welding for a few years, you will be doing this job yourself and laughing at people who can't weld.