So how much of a difference in grouping does annealing with the induction method compared with the flame method.?
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Likely none... I have AMP and other then stopping neck splits, don't really see much of a difference in my type of shooting.
My goal was to extend case life, we'll see what else long term I get out of it.
My goal was to extend case life, we'll see what else long term I get out of it.
I don't think that there is a difference it the annealing result between induction or flame.
But the important thing is easyness of adjustment and consistency...
AMP is very easy to setup, and super consistent between every annealing session.
Flame isn't hard to adjust tho, and you can have very similar results between annealing sessions!
It really depends on how much you want to invest in this reloading operation.
Consistency is the object of the game. Electric induction can be VERY consistent, and flame can too, however I did notice over time the actual machine tends to act like a heat sink and warm up, and over time (15min) the time in flame could be reduced. Something to note.
I've tried 3 different flame annealers. All worked great, all needed adjusting over time.
I've tried 3 different flame annealers. All worked great, all needed adjusting over time.
Interesting!
I didn't noticed this with my Echo Annnealer, and I place one brass with tempilaq every 10 rounds or so to always make sure that the adjustment stays on spot.
Maybe it depends on the design of the annealer, if there is more material that builds up heat during usage? Not sure.
But very interesting to know!
No need. Just means you have to dry.
My reloading room has concrete floor so I dump brass into disposable aluminum chafing pan and sit it on the concrete for 10-15 and it is cool.
I anneal my cases by hand with a torch and shoot tight groups all day. No need to spend $1500 or more for all that
So I’m at the point where some of my 300BLK brass for some of my gas guns has been reloaded 4 or 5 times, and the necks are definitely getting loose on some (many) of them. Should I anneal after decapping/cleaning, but before resizing the necks?
Or should I just resize as usual and then anneal?
Thanks in advance for any input…
Or should I just resize as usual and then anneal?
Thanks in advance for any input…
Always anneal before you resize.
Sounds odd to me that the necks are getting loose as typically it's the other way around where necks get tighter as they work harden resulting in more springback (assuming one is using a mandrel to expand to the desired neck tension). Of course, if one is only using a bushing to neck down to the desired neck tension, then that springback can result in what you're experiencing.
Thank you..
I just got the neck resizing die for this caliber and haven’t even used it yet. I’ve just been using the mandrel that’s on the decapping pin to size the necks until now...basically just straightening them and taking the dings out of the neck where it hits the brass deflector on the upper receiver to be honest. Hell, I only trim them when it’s obvious the necks have stretched; and just load to my desired overall length.
All my 300BLK guns are SBR’d ARs, and this ammo is just for range time fun, so I’ve not been too concerned with perfect groups…and haven’t been super concerned about making perfect ammo as a result; just ammo that’s safe to shoot.
But it’s time for me to take my reloading game to the next level as I get more into precision shooting.
Greatly appreciate any tips or advice y’all have to offer!
Thank you..
I just got the neck resizing die for this caliber and haven’t even used it yet. I’ve just been using the mandrel that’s on the decapping pin to size the necks until now...basically just straightening them and taking the dings out of the neck where it hits the brass deflector on the upper receiver to be honest. Hell, I only trim them when it’s obvious the necks have stretched; and just load to my desired overall length.
All my 300BLK guns are SBR’d ARs, and this ammo is just for range time fun, so I’ve not been too concerned with perfect groups…and haven’t been super concerned about making perfect ammo as a result; just ammo that’s safe to shoot.
But it’s time for me to take my reloading game to the next level as I get more into precision shooting.
Greatly appreciate any tips or advice y’all have to offer!
Sounds like you're talking about an "expander button" that you say is on the decapping pin. "Expander Mandrels" are separate and their use is a separate operation. It doesn't sound like an expander mandrel is something for you . . . yet, given what you say about the nature of your shooting. But, just FYI, the expander mandrel operation produces a lot less runout on case necks than the use of an expander button and moves the irregularity of the neck thickness to the outside so the irregularity doesn't influence the runout of the bullet so much.
When you anneal your brass, be sure to use plenty of neck tension (like .003 or .004") as semi-autos tend move the bullet deeper into the case as rounds are being fired; the reason why it's not unusual for reloaders to do crimp operation, though not necessary with enough neck tension. Proper annealing will make your brass last a lot longer and help improve consistency in your case sizing operation. It's really not a difficult thing to do, just be aware that the neck is made a little softer and why a little more neck tension for semi-autos is needed than for bolt guns.
Last edited:
Thank you..
I just got the neck resizing die for this caliber and haven’t even used it yet. I’ve just been using the mandrel that’s on the decapping pin to size the necks until now...basically just straightening them and taking the dings out of the neck where it hits the brass deflector on the upper receiver to be honest. Hell, I only trim them when it’s obvious the necks have stretched; and just load to my desired overall length.
All my 300BLK guns are SBR’d ARs, and this ammo is just for range time fun, so I’ve not been too concerned with perfect groups…and haven’t been super concerned about making perfect ammo as a result; just ammo that’s safe to shoot.
But it’s time for me to take my reloading game to the next level as I get more into precision shooting.
Greatly appreciate any tips or advice y’all have to offer!
I personally don't prefer to use expander mandrels as part of my sizing process as it just creates another opportunity to induce runout.
My preference is to use the perfect bushing size in the first place, but that means you will need a range of bushings, not just one.
If you neck turn brass, you can limit the range of bushing sizes you might need.
If you don't anneal every time, you can chase spring back by using progressively smaller bushings as the brass work hardens and spring back increases.
If you "really" pay close attention, you can even use different bushings within the same lot to compensate for spring back variation caused by inconsistent brass hardness if you anneal or not... there is always some hardness variation if you look closely enough.
Really???
Interesting that you make an empty comment like that without supporting it with facts to justify your condescension.
The fact is, I’ve read you here. I have no interest in engage in empty arguments with someone who is convinced they are right. That right there is the fact. Those that know will know.
You and most anyone else who has actually loaded for a while. There are plenty of pro shooters on here that have tested and verified the advantage of using a mandrel, some only empirically and some using full data sets and scientific methods.
Ya I mean I think the only potential negative thing a mandrel could do is making your case neck to be so thick that you might not have enough clearance in your chamber which then you just gotta neck turn or get new brass but man I can't imagine if it actually negatively affected concentricity that the top f class shooters would still use that method religiously.
all internet is about manderls and runout...
like this realy matters to your groups!
just like neck sizing a decade ago.
like this realy matters to your groups!
just like neck sizing a decade ago.
I'm not saying it will actually make the case neck thicker but dependant on the mandrel you use and how thick your case neck is could make an impact I'd you have a really tight chamber.. most guys say you need about 3 to 5 thou of neck clearance in your chamber
Ive run as low as 1.5thou total clearance, as a test a few times, and things still work no problem. I did get a weird velo change, but nothing bad.
Generically i run 3thou now, 1.5 per side. It works for me.
The main one i found causing me an issue was bushing dies. They would leave a very small part of the neck unsized, and so i went to "normal" FL dies, and using mandrels.
Generically i run 3thou now, 1.5 per side. It works for me.
The main one i found causing me an issue was bushing dies. They would leave a very small part of the neck unsized, and so i went to "normal" FL dies, and using mandrels.
Have you tried the SAC bushings? I hear what they are doing eliminates some of that
Think of it this way... You have a neck that is clear of the loaded case by 0.012". When you resize the neck, how much runout is possible?
Answer 0.012" and yes this is an absurd exaggeration but lets take the same absurd exaggeration to another extreme...
The clearance on your turned neck brass to the chamber is 0.002" Now how much runout is it possible to induce during neck resizing... Answer 0.002" max.
Now hit it again with a mandrel using the same logic.
Tolerances stack and every operation you add to the cycle increases the error.
If you do not feel that runout is relevant to you, then don't think about it.
Personally if I have to choose between ammo with 0.005" runout and ammo with 0.0005" runout, I don't have to think about it.
I'll take a tight neck chamber turned brass minimal neck sizing and forget the mandrel thanks.
What the fuck are you even talking about? That might be the dumbest shit I’ve ever read.
You hear that, @91Eunozs? You need to run a neckturn chamber in your 300bo ar15. Disregard your current barrel, dont even think about it.
You hear that, @91Eunozs? You need to run a neckturn chamber in your 300bo ar15. Disregard your current barrel, dont even think about it.
You clearly haven’t. Fucking idiot.
I get what your saying but I don't really agree with the logic IMO. I could see it if you are using sub par equipment but me personally when doing my process I'll use a custom reamer spec'd whidden FL sizing die with SAC bushing on my zero press and no expander ball, that leaves me about .0025 of neck tension then I run em through a .0015 km expander mandrel to set my final desired neck tension. The most runout I have ever seen was .002 and usually it's .0005
Yes heard the same. REALLY want some, but just got a henderson trimmer. Have to wait a few weeks.
I am very happy that you value your ammo and dies based on runout and not minor things, like velocity SD or group size...
That's not what I said at all.. we were talking about runout right? I personally don't think runout matters at all. Just stating that when doing my process and checking to see that's what I would get.I am very happy that you value your ammo and dies based on runout and not minor things, like velocity SD or group size...
You have got to be the dumbest person on earth.
I get it. I am not expecting a Christmas card from you. Don't worry, I wont be sending one to you either.
But posting personal attacks for literally anything I say because you don't like being corrected for the stupid shit you say isn't getting anywhere.
If you can elaborate on a technical level, I would be interested to hear your thoughts and learn what I don't know and you apparently think you do.
Last edited:
I have danced around that better equipment camp fire for 40 + years and there is simply no getting around the mechanical realities of metal forming.
There will always be a variance. The more times you bend it, the more variance you will create. It does not matter what you spend on dies, or press or other gadgets.
The most perfect case you will ever find is one that you fired twice in your chamber. Anything you do to that case after the second firing is widening the tolerances. The less you manipulate the case, the less variance you will induce.
If when you are done sizing, that variance is within the variance you accept, then it works for your purpose.
If this were 100 % true why wouldn't all the f open guys be tossing their brass after the third firing?
because it doesnt matter on the target. it matters just on indicator.
0.0005' of runout on the neck in reality is not a 'runout'. it can be just difference in brass thickness, which is usual a difference at quality brass. imho.
I would say that 0.001'+ runout on the neck is product of the dies (if you use quality brass), IF our brass come straight from the chamber... if it doesnt came straight from the chamber, than this can be also a problem.
if we want to measure true runout, maybe we should measure it on the bullet and not on the neck ?
Well, I know guys who do... Top shooters too. I don't support it for financial reasons, but they do.
But that's not my point. I'm saying that firing the case one time blows out the case but it retracts with spring back, so one firing is not quite enough. The second time blows it out again with less spring back.
At this point the case is as perfect a replication of the chamber as it will ever be.
Now you obviously have to resize at least the neck and probably the shoulder bump. This process will always widen the dimensional consistency of the fired brass to various degrees that depend largely on the amount of sizing that is done.
The whole idea of FL resizing is not to suggest that more sizing is better... quite the opposite is true.
FL sizing is meant to size it just enough for a target rifle that the case does not behave like an over pressure round with stiff bolt close and stiffer bolt lift, even when its not a hot load.
The more a case is undersize to the chamber, the more energy is lost to blowing the case out to fit the chamber and the larger the velocity spread.
This only holds water if you've neck turned the brass and every single piece is a consistent thickness all the way around. If not, you've induced more variance by only sizing the OUTSIDE of the neck with a bushing. That's why we size the inside of the neck, where the bullet goes; we want that hole to be round and of a consistent size for uniform seat/pull forces as much as possible.
That seems like a pretty basic concept to have overlooked, IMO. The phrase "missing the forest for all the trees" comes to mind.
Where did you see anyone saying they measured runout on the neck instead of the bullet?
Actually I was speaking from the context that neck turning competence was assumed. Not overlooked.
I get the motivation to think an expander mandrel will get you more consistency, but I think people like yourself are using it as justification not to neck turn or otherwise control neck tension. Then you are messing with inconsistent brass with inconsistent spring back and inducing runout, but you probably justify that by buying into the runout does not matter thing anyway.
So with that in mind, I would agree that it is probably better for a guy with a 0.012" clear neck and un-turned brass to use an expander mandrel in that context and equally justifiable to putting a chandelier in an outhouse.
