Rifle Scopes Bubble Level Sensitivity

[Lowlight]

So this was on display at the Precision Rifle Expo, and as many know we have always questioned the value of levels we have on the market for shooting. Thomas Haugland demonstrated this with an electronic level showing the Human Brain was much better than your standard level.

it's the difference in degree minutes vs buying these cheap $6 levels that are not very sensitive between the lines.

The Level above is the Tubb level vs the A1st

Thoughts ?

 

[gamewarden]

Is there a full screen video of this? I would like to see the rifle on the ground/bench with the bipod out and then do the same thing...just hard for me to make a comment as is.

 

[Lowlight]

It's not on a rifle

but the smaller movement using a bipod would mean one level moves the other does not

 

[5RWill]

I have an accuracy 1st but have never truly tested for cant. I've been trying to go to the plumb line method and just making sure the scope is level while the rifle fits me. Though seems easier said than done.

 

[padom]

Is there a full screen video of this? I would like to see the rifle on the ground/bench with the bipod out and then do the same thing...just hard for me to make a comment as is.

If you click the little icon at the bottom right of the video that has 4 arrows point out that will make it full screen

 

[gamewarden]

Here is the Haugland video...he has great videos. Starts going into the level at 3:18 mark.

 

[Glassaholic]

This has to do with your vestibular sense and is applicable when you setup your scope/reticle to your "natural hold", not perfectly level with the action/rifle. When you bring the rifle into your shoulder it will not be square, it will be canted based on your build, if you have a stock that can adjust for cant then you can set that up so the rifle is square or perpendicular to plumb but for most without adjustable cant your rifle will be canted with your natural hold which means if you mount your scope so it sits in your rings level to your action (via the Spuhr tool or using feeler gauges, etc.) then each time you bring your rifle to your natural hold and your vistibular sense takes over you will cant the rifle which means you will look at your bubble and see it is "off" and have to adjust each and every time; however, if you mount your scope so the reticle is plumb with your natural hold then each time you bring your rifle to your shoulder you should be close and have to make very small adjustments to the cant of the rifle in order for that reticle to be plumb.

Hopefully that makes sense, I always find it difficult to explain in writing, Thomas does a decent job with the video but I wish there was a better video that explained this more appropriately. Frank, if you feel so inclined I think if you did a video it would help the Hide members understand this better as I still think many are mounting their scopes level to their action without cant adjustment on their stocks.

 

[gamewarden]

I use a plumb line to level as well. Would the bubble levels help on uneven terrain like hunting in the mountains (I don't know)...or not realizing the target itself isn't level? To me I think it would, however, i've never calibrated my eye to see how off or on I would be. Makes me want to set something up and try though.

 

[gamewarden]

53 seconds in...

 

[Fig]

I was saying the same thing or close to it on another thread, but that was just empirical, personal observation without evidence.

Most of my rifles are set up with either a level in the Sphur mount, or in the chassis in the case of the MPA. I can't say I never look at it, but if I do it's on a very long or very uneven shot. I would probably not notice if any of them got cracked and drained out unless that green shit got on me.

I guess you can cant your scope to your "natural hold" if you're hunting or shooting the same way every time. However, I sort of feel like when you're playing positional shooting there really isn't a "natural hold", because you are not behind the rifle the same way every time. That's sort of the point; to get you making impacts in less than ideal situations and awkward shooting positions. What's your natural hold in some awkward yoga position they put you in...? There isn't one, so I want the scope to be level to the rifle, and level to the center of the earth rather than on my "natural shooting position". I'll alter whatever that position is so the rifle isn't canted. I level the reticle before loading into the bipod on a level rifle, and that's my repeatable "natural hold". I pretty much wing it everywhere else, while still keeping the rifle level as a habit, including no hold free recoil.
If I was going for a truly natural hold I probably wouldn't square my body to the rifle either (poor recoil management), because rarely do you see a new shooter square up behind the rifle. It doesn't feel natural to most people till you do it a thousand times. They always seem to want to place their bodies at an angle. I'm sure those who instruct in the fundamentals can attest this is true...

 

[Lowlight]

I demonstrate in class how to standardize the hold and manage recoil.

its' about being straight and square and eliminating angles, this makes the hold and the shot consistent from position to position

 

[Precision Underground]

This has to do with your vestibular sense and is applicable when you setup your scope/reticle to your "natural hold", not perfectly level with the action/rifle. When you bring the rifle into your shoulder it will not be square, it will be canted based on your build, if you have a stock that can adjust for cant then you can set that up so the rifle is square or perpendicular to plumb but for most without adjustable cant your rifle will be canted with your natural hold which means if you mount your scope so it sits in your rings level to your action (via the Spuhr tool or using feeler gauges, etc.) then each time you bring your rifle to your natural hold and your vistibular sense takes over you will cant the rifle which means you will look at your bubble and see it is "off" and have to adjust each and every time; however, if you mount your scope so the reticle is plumb with your natural hold then each time you bring your rifle to your shoulder you should be close and have to make very small adjustments to the cant of the rifle in order for that reticle to be plumb.

Hopefully that makes sense, I always find it difficult to explain in writing, Thomas does a decent job with the video but I wish there was a better video that explained this more appropriately. Frank, if you feel so inclined I think if you did a video it would help the Hide members understand this better as I still think many are mounting their scopes level to their action without cant adjustment on their stocks.

I was just finishing up setting up a new rifle and wondering this. So it’s fine to set reticle level to your hold rather than level with rifle? I wasn’t sure if it would affect the sight over bore relationship and cause horizontal issues. It prob wouldn’t be enough to matter I guess. I do feel like if I can’t the rifle to slightly turn the cheek riser toward my cheek I can keep my head more straight up and down.

 

[Lowlight]

It is by far, literally 10x better to purposefully cant the vs running it straight and accidentally doing it

 

[Lowlight]

PS,

To put a fine point on it, my personal cant is less than 1 degree, it's pretty close to .8 degrees and the example uses a very real 2-degree cant.

The 5 degrees of cant most examples uses are by far overdoing it making it appear worse than it actually is. That is not to say 2 degrees is ok, it's not, but that 2 degrees is pretty darn noticeable

 

[Precision Underground]

PS,

To put a fine point on it, my personal cant is less than 1 degree, it's pretty close to .8 degrees and the example uses a very real 2-degree cant.

The 5 degrees of cant most examples uses are by far overdoing it making it appear worse than it actually is. That is not to say 2 degrees is ok, it's not, but that 2 degrees is pretty darn noticeable

Great info in that diagram. What’s a way to measure the cant without a mounted tool to check it?

 

[ken226]

This has to do with your vestibular sense and is applicable when you setup your scope/reticle to your "natural hold", not perfectly level with the action/rifle. When you bring the rifle into your shoulder it will not be square, it will be canted based on your build, if you have a stock that can adjust for cant then you can set that up so the rifle is square or perpendicular to plumb but for most without adjustable cant your rifle will be canted with your natural hold which means if you mount your scope so it sits in your rings level to your action (via the Spuhr tool or using feeler gauges, etc.) then each time you bring your rifle to your natural hold and your vistibular sense takes over you will cant the rifle which means you will look at your bubble and see it is "off" and have to adjust each and every time; however, if you mount your scope so the reticle is plumb with your natural hold then each time you bring your rifle to your shoulder you should be close and have to make very small adjustments to the cant of the rifle in order for that reticle to be plumb.

Hopefully that makes sense, I always find it difficult to explain in writing, Thomas does a decent job with the video but I wish there was a better video that explained this more appropriately. Frank, if you feel so inclined I think if you did a video it would help the Hide members understand this better as I still think many are mounting their scopes level to their action without cant adjustment on their stocks.

My first thought, and i could be mistaken here, is that if you are canting the rifle due to your vestibular sense, but have leveled the reticle to a true level, so that the erectors elevation travel is colinear with vector of the earths gravity, then your rifles bore is now offset laterally from your scopes center, relative to gravity. This would introduce some horizontal error proportional to the scopes height over bore, and proportional to the magnitude of the cant/offset.

Similar to the old russian side mounted scopes.

Just to make sure im understanding, ill try and describe what im visualizing.

If behind the rifle, looking at the rear face of the buttpad, and due to my vestibular sense i have the rifle canted clockwise 1°.
Effectively, my scope tube is no longer directly above my bore, but is now both above and a little offset to the right of my bore. But, knowing this 1° cant would occur, ive leveled my reticle so that the scoped elevation travel is still true-vertical relative to gravity.

Now when i zero the rifle @100 yards, my bullets flight path has an elevation component (so as to intersect my line-of-sight @100 yards) but also now has a small horizontal component, (traveling somewhat to the right to untersect line-of-sight @ 100 yards).

It would also be the case that beyond 100 yds, the horizontal component would still be present and the bullets flight path would continue to diverge from my line-of-sight, with the divergence proportional to the distance?

Is this amount accounted for somehow, or is it not significant enough to be of concern?

 

[Fig]

An angle gage, like in gamewarden's video, costs about $25. It would make a good practice aid exactly as it is used.

 

[Lowlight]

@ken226

the illustrations I posted demonstrated what you are looking for, 2 degrees of cant using the scope means a .6" offset at 1000 yards

 

[gamewarden]

Great Stuff!

 

[ken226]

Ok, i understand.

Your illustration went up while i was still typing my question. So, essentially it significance is small and is outweighed by the gains.

Thanks.

 

[SubOptimal]

Then of course you have level accuracy. It is mildly ridiculous to assume that a 1/4" wide bubble in a 1/2" long tube is gonna produce an accuracy anywhere within 1 degree or so. My most accurate level has very fine gradations, and is about 10" long with an accuracy of 0.0002" in 10", It takes the bubble something like 10 minutes to actually settle provided no metal part of the level has been touched and there are no fans moving air around. We don't even touch it if it has been moved from one room to another. We have to wait for temperature to stabilize. You can't even breathe on the thing.

 

[Precision Underground]

An angle gage, like in gamewarden's video, costs about $25. It would make a good practice aid exactly as it is used.

I never trust that turrets are level with the reticle. When you are dealing with only a 1”surface any deviation from level can throw you way off. Just to measure it for setting the rifle up I guess you could level the scope with the rifle, then hang a paper with measurements on it and see where the vertical line on the reticle lands once you get it where you want it. Am I making this too hard?

 

[BLKWLFK9]

What do you do if you have a shoot from support side stage and your rifle is canted for your strong side?

 

[spife7980]

What do you do if you have a shoot from support side stage and your rifle is canted for your strong side?

Deal with it and keep the rifle level. Kind of the only option short of rebuilding your rifles set up for that one particular stage.

 

[Sheldon N]

My simple $35 Vortex bubble level (full size version) is sensitive enough that it reacts to the smallest possible movement I can make with rotating the gun. Don't know if you need any more sensitivity than that.

I must not have the magic vestibular sense that some people apparently have, but part of me thinks there may be some over-estimation in how good you really are at getting the gun level. I find that I need to correct level often based on the bubble level, especially on positional shooting off odd objects or awkward positions where there isn't a visual reference of horizontal or vertical in the scope.

If you want to test yourself, try building a bunch of non-prone positions off random things where you don't have a visual cue in the scope. Try a white wall, or dial it until it's out of focus, whatever. Build your position, level the gun with your "internal level", then peak at the regular bubble level. You might find you're not as good as you thought.

 

[Lowlight]

It's training, because people don't know how to set the rifle up correctly

Your brain is by far more sensitive than we give it credit for, and everyone wants a shortcut which becomes the level they want you to buy.

Why, because they don't teach rifle set up, the position does not change just because you are off your belly, your shoulder pocket is the same.

It's one of the best-kept lies in Precision rifle shooting, that you can teach your body vs buying a piece of gear.

Even at SHOT Show this past year, Leupold rep hands me the new scope with the build in electronic level. He asked me to focus in on a light down the hall. I focused in with the scope on a rifle stock as they do at SHOT and he said, you see the lights, my response was NO I don't see anything, he had to ask me to purposefully cant the scope to see the lights.

My natural hold is tuned because I trained and practiced.

A level is NOT A SHOOTING AID, it's a training aid. It's there to inform your the rifle is not correctly set up for you the shooter. How many people say, "I look up and the level is off" that is called a clue, that means the rifle is not set up you the shooter if you have to adjust it shot after shot.

 

[Dthomas3523]

My simple $35 Vortex bubble level (full size version) is sensitive enough that it reacts to the smallest possible movement I can make with rotating the gun. Don't know if you need any more sensitivity than that.

I must not have the magic vestibular sense that some people apparently have, but part of me thinks there may be some over-estimation in how good you really are at getting the gun level. I find that I need to correct level often based on the bubble level, especially on positional shooting off odd objects or awkward positions where there isn't a visual reference of horizontal or vertical in the scope.

If you want to test yourself, try building a bunch of non-prone positions off random things where you don't have a visual cue in the scope. Try a white wall, or dial it until it's out of focus, whatever. Build your position, level the gun with your "internal level", then peak at the regular bubble level. You might find you're not as good as you thought.

Frank beat me to it.

Sounds like either your rifle isn’t set up perfectly for you, or you don’t get behind it consistently the same way.

Too many people just level the gun, then level the reticle to the gun. Then they continually fight the gun to keep the bubble level. Just set up the optic so it’s level with your natural position(provided you’re properly behind the rifle) and quit fighting it.

 

[Sheldon N]

Sounds like either your rifle isn’t set up perfectly for you, or you don’t get behind it consistently the same way.

It's training, because people don't know how to set the rifle up correctly

Rifle is set up just fine for me, fully adjustable chassis, LOP, and butt stock canted to NPA of shoulder pocket, etc, etc.

Yes, the bubble level is a training tool and I train a crap ton with it. But I keep it on for shooting matches too because I catch myself needing to correct level sometimes. And no, I don't suck as a shooter. Close to 10k precision bolt rounds fired this past year, I think approaching a dozen top 5 finishes in local PRS matches with a few wins and currently ranked #1 in the Pacific NW PRS Club Series. Was shooting with one of the #1 shooters in the nation a while back and he mentioned to me that he checks his bubble level so often he almost considers it a fault.

My point is this.... a bubble level is a helpful thing, and it's cheap. Put one on your scope and set up your gun right. Look at it when you're shooting... if you have time to do so. Don't let people tell you that if you're a "real shooter" you don't need one because your inner ear is better than any bubble level just cause some guy in Norway posted a video.

 

[Fig]

You think you would start dropping shots if your level broke? Sounds like #1 checks his level by habit rather than necessity...

 

[Sheldon N]

You think you would start dropping shots if your level broke? Sounds like #1 checks his level by habit rather than necessity...

No, I'd be just fine. As would he.

People act like it's some awful thing to put a $35 Vortex bubble level on a $6k rig because the human vestibular sense is allegedly better than a bubble level. As I said before, that cheap Vortex bubble level is every bit as sensitive as the gun is able to be positioned. I can't make any move of the gun without the level picking it up and moving toward or away from center. That being said I've owned bubble levels that weren't as responsive... got rid of them almost immediately.

If you've got a thing against bubble levels then don't use one, and come out and shoot a match and get more hits than the guys who run them. I can't think of any shooter I know who places consistenly in the top 10 who doesn't have one on their gun.

 

[Fig]

I would say it's just the opposite. I've been told I can't shoot at distance because I don't have a level and can't tell if my rifle is canted (that rifle had a Sphur mount, so it actually did have a level the idiot just couldn't see it). That's what's bullshit. You're right. Just about everyone runs a level, and they come built in every MPA chassis, which I see a lot of at matches. NOT having a level would be the exception not the rule, so I don't think you're in danger of being persecuted because you have a level on your scope.

That said, I think most people can do a lot better than they think without one, which is the point of the thread...

 

[BLDTYLRY]

I use a scope mounted bubble level as a confirmation aid. This is especially important when I cannot get into my natural shooting position.

 

[Glassaholic]

I would say it's just the opposite. I've been told I can't shoot at distance because I don't have a level and can't tell if my rifle is canted (that rifle had a Sphur mount, so it actually did have a level the idiot just couldn't see it). That's what's bullshit. You're right. Just about everyone runs a level, and they come built in every MPA chassis, which I see a lot of at matches. NOT having a level would be the exception not the rule, so I don't think you're in danger of being persecuted because you have a level on your scope.

That said, I think most people can do a lot better than they think without one, which is the point of the thread...

And don't forget - that built in level on your mount (Spuhr, ARC M10 QD-L, etc.) and the built in level on the chassis is designed for a level mount/chassis/action/scope, again, if you do not have an adjustable cant on your stock (which MPA and some others do have adjustable cant), then you're going to be fighting it (your natural hold) because it's highly doubtful your natural hold (or shoulder pocket) is perpendicular to the horizon in any given position. Just to reiterate, if you do not have an adjustable cant stock, then do not rely on the ring/mount bubble levels or levels mounted to your rail, you need a scope tube level which you can adjust when your vertical stadia line inside your scope is plumb. Even though I understand natural hold, proper sight mounting and plumbing, I still put bubble levels on my scopes as a training aid, call it assurance or what have you but I have not trained enough like others to be that confident in my natural hold for any given position. I don't think Frank is telling everyone to throw away their levels, I think he started the thread to bring awareness to the situation and question how accurate, or rather, how much do we rely on that bubble level when it's accuracy is less than our natural hold and vistibular sense - if every time you bring your rifle to your shoulder and drop your cheek for proper weld and vestibular sense you notice that your bubble level is way off, it might be time to consider loosening your scope rings and when you bring your rifle to your natural hold, twisting that scope until the scope mounted level is showing level, then tightening your scope rings and now you should find that the level is not so far off when you bring the rifle up and get a proper cheek weld.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The only rifle I have a bubble level on is my ELR rig. The firing point where I shoot the 2,400 yard target has a fairly wicked optical illusion. There is no vegetation in the field of view for reference, and when the rifle is level, the whole world in the scope looks canted about 5 degrees. On the mile target, I probably don't even need a level.

Way back before levels became popular, I learned that if there is any vegetation in the field of view, it isn't any great trick to get your rifle level to within a degree or better. Anything that grows taller than a foot or two will point away from the pull of gravity. If close attention is paid, the eye can even discern this from things like clumps of tall grasses that don't all point in the exact same direction by insticntively finding the imaginary bisecting line in the middle of the clump.

 

[ShtrRdy]

What I saw from the video is the Tubb bubble moved a lot more than the Accuracy 1st ball.

 

[morganlamprecht]

No, I'd be just fine. As would he.

People act like it's some awful thing to put a $35 Vortex bubble level on a $6k rig because the human vestibular sense is allegedly better than a bubble level. As I said before, that cheap Vortex bubble level is every bit as sensitive as the gun is able to be positioned. I can't make any move of the gun without the level picking it up and moving toward or away from center. That being said I've owned bubble levels that weren't as responsive... got rid of them almost immediately.

If you've got a thing against bubble levels then don't use one, and come out and shoot a match and get more hits than the guys who run them. I can't think of any shooter I know who places consistenly in the top 10 who doesn't have one on their gun.

You know at least 1 lol but I don’t have anything against them...I used to have them 3-4 yrs ago, but I found I never looked at them so I just quit using them...I also set up all my scopes/rifles level to gravity and not me, so I’m different there also

This thread has me contemplating buying a couple to mount up tho, just cause I’m curious

 

[SubOptimal]

I come from the shotgun world and only got back into rifles over the last 10 or so years.
In that world, gun fit is everything. It is closely followed by gun mounting skills. You have no sights, only a ramp to guide the eye and maybe a little bead out at the end of the barrel. The mounted gun must shoot where you look or you aren't gonna hit what you see. Cant of the gun can be a big issue when shooting doubles or using an over/under shotgun. Not unusual to drop the cost of an MPA chassis on a chunk of wood. These days, most of the top Olympic shooters are going to a chassis as well. So much easier to tune the chassis to the shooter than the shooter to the gun.

 

[Jackomason]

I got a vortex level a few years ago and shot with it once and didn't care for it all that much so I gave it to a friend. I've never really looked back and I dont have any problem with the distances I shoot (1200 and in). But I have been told plenty of times that I can shoot with out one. That gets old. I dont care if someone else does I just think it's more clutter to my system.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Interesting reading. I have some sort of level on almost every rifle with a scope. I consider my instincts good and the level is simply a verification tool. It's just that "simple". To me this kind of conversation is a perfect scenario to apply the K.I.S.S. method.

 

[Precision Underground]

So I set my computer up level with a large pic of a protractor on it. My scope is set dead level so I looked at the protractor through the scope and canted the gun about 2 degrees left and it felt pretty good. Feels good in the shoulder pocket and best of all turns the cheek riser toward my tall ass skinny face a bit so I can keep my head more straight up and down. I set the scope level to that cant on the rifle. We'll see how it does in the field.

 

[Wilc0]

Is there any merit to using natural position and a plumb to set your reticle and then matching a bubble level to that? It'd show cant when the rifle is legitimately level, but you could use it as a confirmation aid when shooting in awkward positions.

 

[leftyk82]

I've noticed a few A1st levels for sale today.

 

[hlee]

Is there any merit to using natural position and a plumb to set your reticle and then matching a bubble level to that? It'd show cant when the rifle is legitimately level, but you could use it as a confirmation aid when shooting in awkward positions.

I'm no world class shooter, by this is what I do. The reticle should be level when the rifle is properly mounted to my shoulder. The bubble level confirms that, as it was installed level to the reticle, not the rifle.

 

[jLorenzo]

I use a plumb line to level my bubble level. Seems like in the video with the electronic level, even the cheap bubble level is pretty much on. How much will 1 degree throw us off, again I feel like there are many many more factors that will cause misses other than a level, unless your WAY off or shooting elr. For me its just one more thing to add consistentcy in my position. Even if it is off a little at least it will be consistent so my reticle is in the same position everytime. I dont see how it can hurt. Fundamentals and wind will screw guys up alot more than anything to do with a level. That being said the method I heard from Caylyn Wojeck of looking over the top of the turret and leveling it with the horizon also works wells. I just like having the scope in the same spot everytime and it helps me build a consistent firing position. Thats all.

 

[jLorenzo]

Also I might mention I shot holds alot more than dialing so it may be more important in that respect.

 

[jLorenzo]

And don't forget - that built in level on your mount (Spuhr, ARC M10 QD-L, etc.) and the built in level on the chassis is designed for a level mount/chassis/action/scope, again, if you do not have an adjustable cant on your stock (which MPA and some others do have adjustable cant), then you're going to be fighting it (your natural hold) because it's highly doubtful your natural hold (or shoulder pocket) is perpendicular to the horizon in any given position. Just to reiterate, if you do not have an adjustable cant stock, then do not rely on the ring/mount bubble levels or levels mounted to your rail, you need a scope tube level which you can adjust when your vertical stadia line inside your scope is plumb. Even though I understand natural hold, proper sight mounting and plumbing, I still put bubble levels on my scopes as a training aid, call it assurance or what have you but I have not trained enough like others to be that confident in my natural hold for any given position. I don't think Frank is telling everyone to throw away their levels, I think he started the thread to bring awareness to the situation and question how accurate, or rather, how much do we rely on that bubble level when it's accuracy is less than our natural hold and vistibular sense - if every time you bring your rifle to your shoulder and drop your cheek for proper weld and vestibular sense you notice that your bubble level is way off, it might be time to consider loosening your scope rings and when you bring your rifle to your natural hold, twisting that scope until the scope mounted level is showing level, then tightening your scope rings and now you should find that the level is not so far off when you bring the rifle up and get a proper cheek weld.

Frank had a video about twisting the scope and leveling the reticle so you have a comfortable position.

 

[jLorenzo]

I shoot with a guy who runs one of the electronic ones with leds. He loves it.

 

[jLorenzo]

It's training, because people don't know how to set the rifle up correctly

Your brain is by far more sensitive than we give it credit for, and everyone wants a shortcut which becomes the level they want you to buy.

Why, because they don't teach rifle set up, the position does not change just because you are off your belly, your shoulder pocket is the same.

It's one of the best-kept lies in Precision rifle shooting, that you can teach your body vs buying a piece of gear.

Even at SHOT Show this past year, Leupold rep hands me the new scope with the build in electronic level. He asked me to focus in on a light down the hall. I focused in with the scope on a rifle stock as they do at SHOT and he said, you see the lights, my response was NO I don't see anything, he had to ask me to purposefully cant the scope to see the lights.

My natural hold is tuned because I trained and practiced.

A level is NOT A SHOOTING AID, it's a training aid. It's there to inform your the rifle is not correctly set up for you the shooter. How many people say, "I look up and the level is off" that is called a clue, that means the rifle is not set up you the shooter if you have to adjust it shot after shot.

This.

 

[RobbinsHGray]

If you cant the rifle for a more natural hold and set the scope accordingly why not cant the level so it shows it's level for your cant?

 

[jLorenzo]

Also having practiced with a level consistently I set up my position, check the level and its usually one. Because Im used to shooting from that exact setup. Frank is correct its confirmation.