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Buffer spring effect on accuracy???

mkollman74

mkollman74

Quo Vadis?
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Minuteman
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    • Nov 5, 2009
    1,836
    452
    WA, USA
    #1
    Hi All -

    I have always been a boltgun guy, so any advice you can give will be appreciated. I have recently purchased an AR-style .308. My newb question is: Would a weak buffer spring have an effect on accuracy??
     
    #2
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???


    Replace the current spring with a Tubb CS spring. See how that works. Expert authority has it that this spring has been shown to improve accuracy though I am not vouching for the veracity of that test. The carbon silicon spring however has be recognized as a more reliable spring material.
     
    #3
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    In theory it can. One of the keys to accurace in an AR platform is the bolt returning into a consistent and repeatable battery.

    A weak spring can cause carrier bounce as it bottoms out, increased and/or eratic carrier velocity and the possiblity that the bolt doesn't go back into full lockup.

    Thats why they are regularly replaced. The CS (Chrome Silicon) springs do provide a much longer life and take less of a set than other materials. The downside is they are more subseptible to rust and the spring rate is different than the same weight spring from stainless or music wire etc.

    I have had CS springs turn AR's into single shot guns, so you will need to test the rifle after installation to make sure it functions with all the ammo you typically use.
     
    #5
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Now I've heard it all!... If someone can PROVE to me that the buffer spring has ANY effect on accuracy (except when it causes a complete Failure to Feed) I will shit in my hat and pull it down over my ears!!!
    grin.gif
     
    #6
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Judging by the question I think the real question at hand might be that you are used to shooting a bolt gun and now you really have to know how to shoot with a gas gun. If the question was more surrounded by a problem with the BCG then maybe I would say to switch the spring if its been used a bunch. In this case I think you should be more specific to help figure out what the need really is.
     
    #7
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    While I'm not sure that the buffer spring itself is a major factor, I believe that a semi-auto AR system as a whole needs to be "in tune" regarding gas, bcg, buffer, buffer spring, ammo, etc for optimal and consistent accuracy results.
     
    #8
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???


    Oneshot,

    why would the shooter(s) who conducted the test be interested in proving to you a CS buffer spring may improve accuracy. Additionally, I would bet you would refuse to hold up your end of the bargain.
     
    #9
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Ok, I dont know jack. Being an engineer by training and gunsmith for 30 years and building LE sniper rifles and rifles for several of the top sniper competitors doesnt qualify me to have an opinion...

    Well, you havent "heard everthing" here is a bit more for you to chew on. However, I agree with Casey, you wont hold up your end.

    Practical Accuracy:
    As a rule of thumb, AR recoil springs should be replaced when they have lost 10% of their efficiency. So, assuming an AR was properly sprung to begin with, when that spring looses 10% of its efficiency and that loss yielded a 10% increase in carrier velocity this would in turn result in a 40% increase in energy of the carrier. This causes the carrier/buffer to “bottom out” which imparts more recoil force to the shooter, thus effecting practical accuracy. The lower linear compression rate of chrome silicon springs reduces the same effect of mass that the carrier imparts when it closes This allows the shooter to recover more quickly between shots because they are not encountering erratic sight movement as the gun returns back into battery.

    Mechanical Accuracy:
    Though 90% of everything that is important for firearms accuracy happens when the bolt is in battery, recoil springs in AR’s can effect mechanical accuracy in several ways. The carrier bounce resulting from a worn spring causes erratic and accelerated carrier velocity. This does in fact affect an AR’s consistent and repeatable return into the same battery as the prior shot. This accelerated carrier velocity also effects how and from what position the round is fed from, which can damage OTM match bullets. The lower linear compression rate of chrome silicon springs provide more consistent resistance throughout the recoil stroke and controlled rebound ensures reliable feeding through consistent forward thrust. Next, weak springs can cause a reverse bounce where the carrier slams into battery then bounces back due to insufficient spring resistance at full battery position. Lastly, a new spring or chrome silicon spring will allow the bolt to reaming locked a little longer, allowing pressures more time to subside, which helps getting heavier bullets such as the 77gr OTM or 175gr M118LR or MK’s to needed velocities.

    So, while these items might only be 10% of the equation, they do matter and good springs, such as chrome silicon can affect both practical and mechanical accuracy in AR’s

    Regards

    -E
     
    #12
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...here is a bit more for you to chew on...</div></div>
    Thanks a bunch. More data for my head.
    cool.gif
     
    #13
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Sorry to disappoint, but that's all still speculation. Nice story though.

    Seriously... Are you listening to what you're saying? More slap-back makes the shooter feel more recoil and is thus less accurate??? Bwah-ha-ha! And as far as the bolt not being locked in exactly the same position affecting accuracy... PROVE IT!!!
     
    #14
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Judging by the question I think the real question at hand might be that you are used to shooting a bolt gun and now you really have to know how to shoot with a gas gun. If the question was more surrounded by a problem with the BCG then maybe I would say to switch the spring if its been used a bunch. In this case I think you should be more specific to help figure out what the need really is. </div></div>

    There is no doubt that I need to get used to the gasgun vs. the bolt, but in this case, the spring is weak enough that it is having some difficulty picking up the rounds from the mag, and I sometimes need to assist the bolt all the way into battery.

    The rifle in question is an OBR. We used an old rifle length spring we had laying around (I know, first mistake) when I put the PRS on it. So, I was just curious if I might expect any degree of improvement in accuracy from a full-strength spring. I have heard about the Tubb products. Are all CS springs pretty much the same, or is there something special about the ones from Tubb?
     
    #15
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Oneshot:
    Flax seed meal produces safe peristaltic activity of the digestive tract. Drink plenty water though. </div></div>
    That's hilarious!... But I know all about that stuff having survived Stage 3 Colon Cancer a few months ago. I've had my share of... Shall we say... "interesting" turds. None of which I would enjoy in my hat!!!
    eek.gif

    Anyway, I'm certain RedCreek has tons of knowledge and is an excellent Gunsmith but the problem is: how can you prove that the miniscule differences in lock-up you're talking about have a bearing on accuracy? There are so many other far more obvious and measurable differences from shot to shot. This one just seems a little far-fetched. No offense meant toward anyone.
     
    #16
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???


    The most obvious way to prove it would be to shoot the same gun with both springs and see if there is a difference in how it shoots, IF one were interested in proving the CS spring makes a gun more accurate, but we only remotely suggested the CS spring may contribute to improved accuracy, and one test showed it did.

    If the CS spring functions with improved consistency as its proponents would have us believe I can see how a rifle might shoot better in that the bolt would remain locked from shot to shot with more consistent, repeatable pressure exerted by the spring, but being no engineer that's not my field of discipline and thus I'm not qualified to argue that fine point. An AR expert-for-sure thinks CS is better, so I do too.
     
    #17
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    SPent most of a day at Larue once, with a buddy of mines OBR heavy. Had much feeding issues. Finally brought Mark's personal rifle out and started swapping parts. Narrowed it down to the buffer spring. Put the spring on the tester ( yes they test each spring, every rifle ) and it was a little short, less than 1/2", but way down on spring rate ( #/in ). New spring, no issues anymore. FWIW, rifle grouped badly with old spring, even when it didn't misfeed. If you have an OBR, check the spring. Mine is good, LOL!

    I fought an AR10, first round as much as 2" off from the rest. Problem first came after replaced stock with Magpul PRS. Magpul screw was too long, by .25", carrier was bouncing off it when cycling. First round the bolt went home right, manually, next ones were slammed home from the round off the bolt. Cut bolt down, fixed groups. It's now a 6.5 CM, needing a tunable gas block... GOT to remember to order it.

    so yes, my practical exp says buffer springs DO matter. They don't get better with age.
     
    #18
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    I replaced the Armalite spring in my AR10 with a Tubb CS Spring.

    I can't say definitively that it helped my accuracy. It seemed to help with the first round from the mag grouping separately. I also changed several other things on the rifle, but it appears to have helped.
     
    #19
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    need some more opinions before I go out and buy a Tubb spring...I may try to stretch out my spring first before I go buy a new one.
     
    #23
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Oneshot,

    I'm not sure there is any way I can prove it to you. If you read my post carefully, I said 90% of the mechanical accuracy of a semi-auto happens when the rifle is in battery. But, one of the factors which does effect accuracy in a semi-auto is the consistent repeatability of the lockup and duration of lockup (keeping the bolt in battery longer), my personal opinion based on my personal experiences.

    I have a big box full of springs which I had custom made, which run 20% under to 20% over in both stainless and chrome silicon. The reason we had these made was for an ammunition development project we were doing at the time for USASOC on the 5.56mm Optimized and several other ammo projects and we were working with many variables, such as gas port placement, barrel lengths, springs, buffers, suppressors, etc.

    One of the goals was to slow the cyclic rate, keeping the bolt in battery longer to prevent early unlocking (timing) to minimize blowback through the chamber, which also caused issues with flash coming from the action which was an issue when wearing night visions, etc, (I cant discuss the other objectives)

    While there was a goal of improved accuracy, it was intended to come solely from the improved ammunition and we had no expectation of any improvements from the other elements. However, we did notice that when we got the timing optimized, brass in a small pile between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock, desired carrier velocity, dwell time, etc, that the accuracy also increased in almost all cases. (Note: The differnce was more pronounced in M4's with 7" gas sytems and 14.5 to 16" barrels tha rifle lenght 12"/20" systems)


    The main benefit of the right, high quality, action/buffer spring in an AR/M4 has always been functional reliability, smoothness of operation, etc and that alone justifies the use of the best spring you can put in the gun and changing them when needed.

    I now religiously follow the formulas we developed for gas port location relative to barrel length , carrier weight and spring type and weight on my own personal AR's and the difference is like a Rolex vs. a Timex in smoothness and reliability. Any accuracy improvement is a fringe benefit.

    If you want to prove it to yourself you should take a consistently accurate AR with a new spring out to the range, shoot ten five shot groups (military test minimum) then put in a spring which has lost more than 10% of its effective rate measured at full compression and do the same set of ten five shot groups. Or, perhaps run one of the Tubb's Chrome Silicon against a worn out standard spring, which would give you the greatest variance. It would be an interesting test… And, I would be interested in the results.

    You might also ping the Armorer’s at the AMU and ask them thier opinions. Last I checked they replaced the springs religiously.

    Glad to hear you beat the cancer, keep up the fight!


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry to disappoint, but that's all still speculation. Nice story though.

    Seriously... Are you listening to what you're saying? More slap-back makes the shooter feel more recoil and is thus less accurate??? Bwah-ha-ha! And as far as the bolt not being locked in exactly the same position affecting accuracy... PROVE IT!!! </div></div>
     
    #24
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    My take is that a weak AR spring could effect precision if it so weak that it does not apply adequate or consistent recoil. After firing, while the bolt is cycling and the bullet is exiting the barrel, inconsistent bolt cycling could have an effect. Variable bolt cycling and timing could also cause velocity variations.

    If you are asking if you should change your recoil spring in the hopes of getting better consistency, I would say other components probably matter more (e.g. trigger, barrel, ammo, etc...and the shooter of course).
     
    #25
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    you guys saying that the buffer spring makes that much of a difference. HOw old is old? you saying that an a fairly new Armalite spring that has 1000-2000 cycles thru it compared to a new Tubb spring or are we talking about at the more extreme end where a spring nearing its end compared to a new one?

    I can see where a worn spring that has had maybe 6000+ rounds for .308 maybe not as consistent as a new one but everyone is trying to buy into this Tubb spring and I havent been able to see a difference compared to a new spring from my previous tests.....
     
    #28
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Harmonics are a weird bitch. I don't even come close to understanding. I just see what I see.

    I will admit there may be a totally different mechanism at work, since I really don't have the capacity right now to do a test with anything more than anecdotal value.
     
    #29
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Oneshot, I have seen groups tighten up after a switch to the Tubbs spring.My range sells them and will give your money back if the spring don't help.They never had to. After you buy a new hat and shower,Try one. and don,t forget to wash behind your ears
     
    #30
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oneshot, I have seen groups tighten up after a switch to the Tubbs spring.My range sells them and will give your money back if the spring don't help.They never had to. After you buy a new hat and shower,Try one. and don,t forget to wash behind your ears </div></div>

    Interesting experience Scot. I hope I have the same experience with the one I ordered from Brownell's. I am not expecting a huge improvement, and was not originally planning on a Tubb spring. I am not trying to "get the clubs to make me a better golfer" so to speak. I was simply curious what role a buffer spring plays in an accurate AR platform.

    I've appreciated the various responses to that question.

    As I said in a previous post, I'll try to get a pre-/post- range report together after the new Tubb spring arrives.
     
    #32
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Ok, so a little familiarity issue for me...

    Given the reasonable cost of a Tubb buffer spring and a shot at having a little better accuracy mechanically for the given reasons, does anyone know if the Tubb AR10 spring will fit in a DPMS LR308? I don't know at what point one part will swap from one rifle manufactures platform to another...
     
    #34
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ElCoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried one in my AR10 to help with brass mutilation, now I have the Tubb springs in all my AR's. </div></div>

    I was curious to see if the new spring would make any difference (good or bad) with that as well. Good to hear of your experience.
     
    #35
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, assuming an AR was properly sprung to begin with, when that spring looses 10% of its efficiency and that loss yielded a 10% increase in carrier velocity this would in turn result in a 40% increase in energy of the carrier. This causes the carrier/buffer to “bottom out” which imparts more recoil force to the shooter, thus effecting practical accuracy.
    </div></div>

    I don't know where you're getting a 40% increase in energy from a 10% increase in velocity. 21% sure, but not 40%. Also, the buffer is designed to bottom out.
     
    #36
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    If slamming the forward assist doesn't change the poi, then it seems unlikely the buffer spring would, but if using the forward assist does change things then . . ? Does anyone know for sure? The mechanical aspects of bolt velocity picking up the round and damaging the tip or failure to feed or whatever else seems more a reliability issue. As a principle of good smithing, one would think that everything in the firing cycle needs to be as consistent and repeatable as possible, thus the mil spec attempt to address this, but within the assembly, some items carry more of the accuracy burden than others. The buffer spring in many ways looks similar to the arm moving the bolt into battery in bolt guns. How much does technique in manual bolt manipulation affect accuracy?
    Just my wonderings from a small portion of the big picture.
     
    #37
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Has anone slammed the bolt forward hard and measued the round...I sometimes get shoulder bumpbacks...if neck tension is weak then u get setback....is too hard a spring bad?

    A spring that is only 10% weaker gonna feed inconsistently? Or a new spring is key to consistently feeding and you dont necessarily need a higher power spring to feed consistently??
     
    #38
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anone slammed the bolt forward hard and measued the round..</div></div>

    When I load for my -10 I FL quite a bit less than fired size. I usually bump them back to new FGMM spec. My shoulder shouldn't touch the shoulder in the chamber, so I never worried about it. I am sure the bolt in the -10 has enough ass to size a case slightly if you are running to long a bump.

    I have measured COL and not gotten any setback with a .002 neck tension after a single chambering. I have not measured repeat chamberings because I generally only chamber a round once, twice at the most before I place it somewhere it will get fired.
     
    #39
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    Its 40%

    If you increase the velocity of an object you quadruple the engery and if you double the weight you only double the energy.

    Speed x weight / 64.32 = energy

    I would share with you the test results from a DoD project we did, but then I would have to kill you
    shocked.gif


    Show me your math...

    -E
     
    #40
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its 40%

    If you increase the velocity of an object you quadruple the engery and if you double the weight you only double the energy.

    Speed x weight / 64.32 = energy

    I would share with you the test results from a DoD project we did, but then I would have to kill you
    shocked.gif


    Show me your math...

    -E</div></div>

    No threats of violence in my thread...
    wink.gif
    BTW, Thanks for your contribution to this topic, RedCreek.
     
    #43
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    I'm just thinking out loud but from an accuracy standpoint I would think that the springs ability to contract or expand (such as would be determined by the material used) would take a back seat to the springs ability not to "bunch up" in the tube during expansion/contraction, which could impart lateral and/or jerky movement during the recoil pulse. I'd think that in either instance the spring has "some" affect on accuracy.

    The real question is whether or not this affect is measurable. Hell my practice rifle has always been a .308 auto and when shooting them at distance there are sooooooo many variables that come into play I find it unlikely that you could pinpoint such minor deviations unless the rifle was tested by a machine that removes the human element from the shot.
     
    #44
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IThe CS (Chrome Silicon) springs do provide a much longer life and take less of a set than other materials. </div></div>

    They do not take less of a set than the best music wire.

    If one doesn't care about corrosion resistance and is willing to give up stainless, then Rocket Wire - a high grade of music wire, will outperform CS as long as the temperatures are not elevated. A buffer spring is not a high temperature environment.
     
    #45
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IThe CS (Chrome Silicon) springs do provide a much longer life and take less of a set than other materials. </div></div>

    They do not take less of a set than the best music wire.

    If one doesn't care about corrosion resistance and is willing to give up stainless, then Rocket Wire - a high grade of music wire, will outperform CS as long as the temperatures are not elevated. A buffer spring is not a high temperature environment. </div></div>

    That's not what Tubs says.

    I installed a CS spring in my wifes AR and it cut the groups down by a bunch. Maybe 1/2
     
    #46
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    OK. So I installed the Tubb CS flatwire buffer spring and took the OBR to the range. A short report (pics later if I find the time) follows.

    Disclaimers:

    This pre-/post- test is not exactly scientific. I shot the before groups under different conditions(better actually, no wind) on a previous day. Additionally, the rifle is now a bit more "broken in", and that may have some effect. Also, I have more experience with the rifle now, although I had not shot it between the two range sessions which were measured.

    On the pre- test with the lackluster weak spring, I was only shooting three shot groups. I shot 5 shot groups with the new Tubb spring. Finally, I have no doubt the rifle would do better in more experienced hands. While, I can drive a bolt gun reasonably well, I am just learning how to shoot the OBR.

    Ok, so the results...

    With the new spring, the groups were about 20% smaller than with the worn spring. I noticed that the final shot in the magazine (the fifth shot) opened the group considerably everytime. I have heard this can be the case with semis. If I measure just the first four shots of the groups, the size is reduced by just around 50% on average when compared to the 3 shot groups with the weak spring. This holds true for both the FGMM 168s and the BHA Match 175s.

    Cause and effect here? Who knows. As I said there were other variables which may have contributed, including my having a bit more trigger time with the rifle.

    I can say this though, recoil impulse was noticably improved. Naturally, reliable function compared to the other spring was also noted. The extractor marks on the brass also seemed to be quite a bit less severe. Would these have also been experienced with a new round piano wire spring? Dunno.

    I'll leave it to y'all to decide if these results have any validity. For me, while I can't say the Tubb spring was specifically better than another style of spring, I think I have decided that a weakened buffer spring can negatively affect accuracty in an AR type rifle.
     
    #47
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    I'd be willing to wager that the round has already left the bore before the spring moves much/if at all. Given this I can't digest that it would have any affect on the function of the barrel. Once the round exits the bore you could have a magic spring and it wouldn't change the accuracy of the barrel. I could be wrong but it doesn't add up for me at all.

    If I wore a spring out and needed a new one I may try one if similarly priced to a factory spring but I wouldn't pay much more.
     
    #48
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd be willing to wager that the round has already left the bore before the spring moves much/if at all. Given this I can't digest that it would have any affect on the function of the barrel. Once the round exits the bore you could have a magic spring and it wouldn't change the accuracy of the barrel. I could be wrong but it doesn't add up for me at all.

    If I wore a spring out and needed a new one I may try one if similarly priced to a factory spring but I wouldn't pay much more. </div></div>

    You could be correct. I am no engineer. I do recall reading a thread awhile back where Lowlight and a couple of the members were discussing that very thing. Can't recall all the theory, and truthfully it doesn't matter that much to me as the rifle is shooting pretty good now. As I said I think the weak spring (in my case it was quite weak)did have a negative impact on accuracy.

    If I had the time and interest I would slap a new $10 piano wire spring in there and see if I got the same improvements as with the $30 Tubb spring. My guess is I would still see improvement over the weak spring. How much? Who knows. As I said, I am not necessarily convinced RE: the Tubb claims, but I do think a weak spring (depending on how weak) is detrimental to best accuracy. Seemed to make a difference for me.
     
    #49
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    I just watched his video and read the write-up on it and he actually doesn't make any accuracy claims. My understanding of the claims is that it makes followups quicker or at least more consistent due to more consistent cycling of the bolt. If true I can see where that would make a difference shooting off-hand but not so much from a bipod or rest. He lists $25 on his site so you're not really out a fortune if it doesn't actually do anything more than generate a placebo effect.

    I do find curious the claim that a standard spring only lasts around 500-ish rounds before suffering some sort of deterioration. I've run two different AR10's past the 800 round mark in the last 2 years and have an AR15 with a 20 year old sping that seems to function perfectly with several thousand rounds through it.

    At $25 I'd be likely to at least try one if I developed any strange cycling issues but for now...if it ain't broke it ain't getting fixed.

    Maybe I missed it but what exactly was your OBR doing that warranted a new spring?
     
    #50
    Re: Buffer spring affect on accuracy???

    This has sparked my interest. Do I believe a spring can effect accuracy? I wouldn't put it past me. However I believe that the consistency or shot to shot improvement would come from the consistent chambering of the next round, vice say the "harmonics" of the rifle being fired.

    However I'm not a scientist. I just pick up my rifle and shoot it.
     
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