Bulgling/Failed Brass - S&B Head Stamp - .223

[ratrod54]

Sorry for this being long winded but I figure the back story is worth telling. I have had my Rock River Elite Operator II for a few years. I have shot ~500 rounds through it and I had picked up the majority of my brass from the beginning. I did not start reloading until about one year ago and I had saved my factory brass with hopes of reloading it in the future. In addition, I purchased 1,000 pieces of once fired Lake City brass which I figured I would reload first seeing as how it was already FL sized and clean.

I reloaded 100 rounds April of 2013 - Details of the load are as follows:

Hornady Z-Max, 55 grain
Varget Powder - 25.5 grain
Lake City Brass
Federal 205 Primer

When I shot the first reload, I picked up the brass to see if there were any issues with the round and immediately discovered that the brass failed. I was shocked and noticed that there was a crack in the chamber. I was fortunate that it did not come apart. I figured that I messed up with the reload and was a little messed up. Figured I had no business reloading. I pulled 50 bullets and checked every round to see if I had over charged it. Everything was consistent and matched the load data above. I did some research on the load to see if anyone else had problems with a similar load and even had someone else check a few rounds of the other 49 I had left. All of those were consistent as well. We chalked it up to poor brass and a live and learn lesson.

Saturday I was in my reloading room with my son and he was asking about the LE Wilson cartridge gauge sitting on the counter. I was explaining to him it was for checking my brass. He's 7 so I am positive it was the most uninteresting answer I could have given him. Needless to say, he wanted to put a few pieces of brass in the gauge just because. So I grabbed a piece of the FACTORY brass i had saved and handed it to him. It dropped in with no problems. I gave him the second piece of brass and I noticed that it stopped half way into the gauge. I thought that was weird and thought "what are the chances"? So I pulled a handful of brass and noticed that ~75% of what was in my hand was the same way. Now I was a little taken back as I only fired one reload. Everything else fired through the rifle was factory ammunition. Ill be honest, I never thought to look and inspect factory brass but I should have done so. Needless to say, I had about 500 pieces of brass and figured I would check them all and see if there were others.

I found ~200 pieces of brass which had bulged in the webbing. I thought this was strange as these were not reloads. As I continued to look, I found two other pieces which had failed, exactly the same as my reload albeit this happened long before I began reloading.

The factory brass was stamped S&B, which I understand is Czech ammo. Is this typical for this Czech ammo? Any idea why it would have failed in this way? Is this ammo that inconsistent? I have attached pictures of the brass so someone can look at it and see what I am talking about. Does everyone here inspect factory ammo after being shot? Its a wonder this thing didn't let go at all. I have three pieces of failed brass, the third being the last to have been shot from the rifle (Lake City Brass). The other two would have been from a year ago (S&B Head Stamp) with one bulged brass being Remington brass.

Any commentary on this of any kind would be appreciated.

The pic is deceiving... All pieces of brass are the same length. I am not sure why the pic makes it look differently.

 

[Frank]

Could we see the pics of the failure? The bulge? A crack in the chamber? Not real clear on what your problem is. I have seen some very old PMC brass that was way under sized in diameter in the solid area of the head. Shot fine and reloaded many times with out incident. But after firing it looked like the back end of a belted case.

 

[223Rem]

If the factory ammo and handloads exhibit the same deformation, sounds like a messed up chamber/ headspace issue.

 

[Frank]

Well this is strange, first time I clicked on you link, I got case heads. Went back to looked after my reply and it then showed side view with splits lengthwise. An over size, as in too big around, chamber would cause this. Too long of a chamber would stretch the brass long ways unless the case had a too thin spot in the side wall which started a tear following the weak spot. Have you looked inside the chamber to see if there is any defect visible? These cases should have produced a noticable amount of smoke when fired.

 

[BCP]

When chambers are cut it's to very precise dimensions so a difference of a few thousandths can cause what you are seeing. What do they measure at the case web area (the place where they are the most bulged out)? I bet .382" or more.

 

[ratrod54]

If you are confused with what has happened, I did not do a good job of explaining. Please let me try again. The bulge I mentioned is in the brass. You can see it good in the round that did not split. I have included a pic of the chamber but I am having a hard time getting a good pic. In the pic of the chamber, you can see the darker line adjacent to the ejection port. It is hard to see the crack but I assure you there is one there. Ill have to see if I can get a better pic.

I am interested in the messed up chamber/head space issue however, I have a lot of brass that is not deformed like this that is once fired by myself. I guess there could have been a head space issue from the rock river factory however I would have thought it would have shown up immediately. I have factory brass that measures good OAL and will slide in the head space gauge and exhibit good readings. I can only conclude that this happened due to a poor factory load. Is this normal for factory loads? I would have never thought to check my brass for this and maybe I should have. I wish I had known because I would have called Rock River and seen what they could have done about it. I am afraid it may be a little late for that now.

To be honest, I was really amazed that I found this in the factory brass I saved. I figured this happened with the reloaded round I fired but it is clear that it happened prior to reloading and is the result of separate incident involving factory rounds, of which went un-noticed.

All three pieces of brass pictured above measure 1.757"

 

[arnie19]

That looks like there is a case stuck in the chamber with the head broke off .That might be what the crack is .Sure looks dirty in there .

 

[LRRPF52]

Was the Lake City brass fired in your rifle, or obtained from somewhere else. Lake City brass is one of the stronger brasses because it's 5.56 brass meant to run crazy pressures. Only problem is: Was it fired from an M4, an M16, a Mk.18, or the worst possible answer, a SAW?

If I don't know, I don't touch it. LC fired factory new from my AR15's-GTG. Unknown source, once fired? Won't go near it. I think most of the kabooms I've seen were using LC brass, once-fired. The SAW stretches the crap out of the case at the web, so many of those cases are ready to fail the second time they are loaded, even with mild plinking loads pushing 55gr at lower pressures.

Next BIG question: How is it again that there is an instance of case failure with chamber cracking, and more cases with splits down them? I'm just trying to determine how you came up with this many failed cases, as I'm a little confused on the sequence. Were the S&B fired first, or was your Lake City load fired first?

Loading for a gas-operated firearm is a bit different than loading for a manually-operated action, like a bolt gun.

 

[CanPopper]

My experience with S&B brass is it is more brittle. I get pretty lousy life out of my S&B before suffering a split neck. However, your problem is further down. Since the S&B brass you showed weren't reloads, I'm thinking you may have a head space issue with your AR.

I love picking up brass at the range and I inspect each one I pick up. Sometimes, I would pick up a lot of AR brass with a bulge near the head. That tells me whomever's AR fired and ejected those brass had improper headspace between the bolt and barrel.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Quit messin' around with the Internet. The Internet is not a reliable means for diagnosing serious issues, especially those involving safety. Anything that cracks/splits brass like that is a serious threat to your safety and that of those around you when you are shooting this rifle. Take it out of service and get it physically into the hands of a gunsmith who has significant knowledge about the AR and its operating system. Bring along brass that demonstrates the problem.

Do not be surprised if the repair requires getting a new barrel and/or barrel extension.

Since you're probably going to be in that neighborhood anyway, make the investment in a quality barrel. The barrel is the key difference between a good shooting AR and a meh... shooting AR.

If the estimate exceeds $500-$600, look into replacing the entire upper. The Stag Uppers are affordable and very good. I have a complete Stag Model 6 Super Varminter; and for a list of $595, I think the separate upper is a great buy.

Keeping the old upper and restoring it to a different spec than the new one may provide an opportunity to have a different upper for a different application, available for a quick swap as circumstances require/permit.

Greg

 

[LRRPF52]

My experience with S&B brass is it is more brittle. I get pretty lousy life out of my S&B before suffering a split neck. However, your problem is further down. Since the S&B brass you showed weren't reloads, I'm thinking you may have a head space issue with your AR.

I love picking up brass at the range and I inspect each one I pick up. Sometimes, I would pick up a lot of AR brass with a bulge near the head. That tells me whomever's AR fired and ejected those brass had improper headspace between the bolt and barrel.

Bulged, belted magnum looking AR15 brass are not a result of excessive headspace. They are a result of too early unlocking, which is usually gas system related. Either the guns are 16" CLGS with a 2.9 oz buffer with hot loads, or the gas ports are too large. I see this more with the 10" guns, or hand-loads in guns with too long dwell time.

If the case was that many tenths of an inch unsupported from horribly excessive head space, you would have a kaboom. Belted AR15 cases are early unlocking all day long.

 

[BCP]

PS - I had a problem like that with brass, handloads with lighter charges where generally okay but the hotter 556 loads looked like balloons. You could roll them across a table and see a huge bulge in the body. The chamber was oversize by about 2-3 thousandths.

That is NOT normal. Even BRITTLE brass will not BULGE if the chamber is the right size. It might separate or crack but that bulge looks really bad. Unless you have a slit case in there I am thinking you need a new barrel.

 

[ratrod54]

Was the Lake City brass fired in your rifle, or obtained from somewhere else. Lake City brass is one of the stronger brasses because it's 5.56 brass meant to run crazy pressures. Only problem is: Was it fired from an M4, an M16, a Mk.18, or the worst possible answer, a SAW?

If I don't know, I don't touch it. LC fired factory new from my AR15's-GTG. Unknown source, once fired? Won't go near it. I think most of the kabooms I've seen were using LC brass, once-fired. The SAW stretches the crap out of the case at the web, so many of those cases are ready to fail the second time they are loaded, even with mild plinking loads pushing 55gr at lower pressures.

Next BIG question: How is it again that there is an instance of case failure with chamber cracking, and more cases with splits down them? I'm just trying to determine how you came up with this many failed cases, as I'm a little confused on the sequence. Were the S&B fired first, or was your Lake City load fired first?

Loading for a gas-operated firearm is a bit different than loading for a manually-operated action, like a bolt gun.

The S&B were factory loads fired first, a year ago. Lake city brass was fired last. I was not aware of the failures, split cases or bulges, from the S&B rounds until last weekend.

I have 1000 rounds of once fired LC brass that I bought after being told it was all fired from an AR.

I was hesitant to use any more of it after the failure however after finding the S&B brass, I'm doubting it had anything to do with that and more of an issue with the upper.

The only reason there are multiple case failures is because I had no idea the first two happened. I only fired factory loads and would collect my brass after each day at the range. I was not reloading at the time. I never thought to inspect it as I have never has an issue with factory loads causing problems. The lake city brass was the first fired reload. It split like the two in the picture. I discovered that one immediately but not because of an issue. I checked the brass to see if it showed any signs of problems as a precaution seeing as how it was my first reload for my AR. That was the last round fired through this rifle. This brass was in my reloading room and I stumbled across it last weekend and realized the problem was not with the reload, rather an earlier problem. I then found those two pieces and they are consistent with the LC brass, but fired a year earlier.

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[ratrod54]

Quit messin' around with the Internet. The Internet is not a reliable means for diagnosing serious issues, especially those involving safety. Anything that cracks/splits brass like that is a serious threat to your safety and that of those around you when you are shooting this rifle. Take it out of service and get it physically into the hands of a gunsmith who has significant knowledge about the AR and its operating system. Bring along brass that demonstrates the problem.

Do not be surprised if the repair requires getting a new barrel and/or barrel extension.

Since you're probably going to be in that neighborhood anyway, make the investment in a quality barrel. The barrel is the key difference between a good shooting AR and a meh... shooting AR.

If the estimate exceeds $500-$600, look into replacing the entire upper. The Stag Uppers are affordable and very good. I have a complete Stag Model 6 Super Varminter; and for a list of $595, I think the separate upper is a great buy.

Keeping the old upper and restoring it to a different spec than the new one may provide an opportunity to have a different upper for a different application, available for a quick swap as circumstances require/permit.

Greg

All due respect, this rifle is not being used. I'm not messin' around on the internet. I'm politely asking if anyone has had issues like this and could share their experiences. I understand the severity of what happened which makes me all the more interested to ask as few questions.

Following the failure of the reload, I immediately took it to a gunsmith. It was determined that it needed a barrel which is obvious from the picture. No idea what caused it to happen. Had I known about the S&B brass when I took it to him, it may have shed more light on the situation. Because I didn't know about previous failures at that time, we assumed poor brass.



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[ratrod54]

That looks like there is a case stuck in the chamber with the head broke off .That might be what the crack is .Sure looks dirty in there .

There is no case in the chamber. I have the last fired case in my possession. It's dirty because I shot ~150 rounds through it the week before firing the reload. I didn't see much sense in cleaning the gun that will require as new barrel. I set the upper in the corner after taking it to the gunsmith and let it be.

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[Greg Langelius *]

OK, sorry if my post was offensive.

Greg

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

OK, sorry if my post was offensive.

Greg

I did not find the previous post offensive. Greg, you and I both saw a serious safety hazard which required professional inspection, not just a quick question on the internet. I am glad that the OP went to a gunsmith and confirmed what a few other posters suspected, faulty barrel. I am also VERY glad no one was hurt. With enough time in the field, we all will see a malfunction with injuries sooner or later. It really is only a matter of time.

To the OP, good luck with a new barrel and let us know how the thing shoots when all is said and done.

 

[223Rem]

After seeing the pic if the chamber, you can clearly see an abnormality. If it were a brass issue, the abnormality would not be defined like that as the orientation of the brass into the chamber would be different upon each loading.

 

[ratrod54]

I

OK, sorry if my post was offensive.

Greg

I did not take it as offensive at all. I apologize if my reply came across that way. I appreciate all comments.

Edit: after going back and reading my reply, I can see how it would be construed that way. That was not my intent.

I just wanted to be clear that I didn't want to come to the internet to diagnose... rather to see if anyone could share any experience with factory load failure. At first I thought it was due to a single reload and chalked it up to bad luck. After that shot, I saw the damage and the rifle was taken to a smith to verify. By dumb luck I found that in the lot of my personal once fired brass, there were more. This was eye opening to me because it only means I had a serious problem before my failed reload which was consistent with these new found rounds. I realized that I was very lucky. After finding this, i figured I would see how many actually check factory brass after a day at the range to verify there are no issues with the rifle.

As for why it happened, it was not my intent to figure that out. I may have included to much in my post which changed the focus of my original request. I'm absolutely interested in why it would happen but more concerned that this was a failure of factory ammo which could have been catastrophic.

I'm positive my smith can assist me with a mode of failure. I'm just curious as to the probability of the failure being related to factory ammo or a problem from the rock river factory.

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[tomme boy]

Send the upper and brass back to RRA. they will fix whatever is wrong for no charge to you.