Bullet Library----Useful or Mute Point

[THEIS]

Hi,

So we have been having some round table meetings and would like to get comments, feedback, opinions, etc etc on the topic of bullet libraries in modern ballistic application.

So in order to not "sway" the direction of the conversation I am purposely withholding our internal comments because I would like to hear yours.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[BLKWLFK9]

to piggy back off of @reubenski, as long as the library is accurate, there is no downside to it. I personally would love to have my bullets added to the library. Solids, 131g Black Jack, 95gr SMK's(6mm), etc..

 

[Huskydriver]

I have been really impressed with the AB custom curves for ELDM bullets so much so I have shot 3 matches now without having any "real" dope other than the kestral just to see how well it is working for my bullet/rifle combo and it's been spot on out to 1200.

The bullet library is kinda nice also because there is less data entry on my end up front if you are going to make up your "own" curve. Bullet length, weight bc etc is imported for you. I'm lazy

 

[Steel head]

That's kind of broad. Not really sure what in particular about them you're concerned with. I think bullet libraries are fine, even useful, for everyday layman to have a ballpark estimate to pull from. I use an AB 5700 and have used the bullet libraries but for all the bullets I use on the regular I have tweaked. And I feel like lately ABs bullet library has become a little bit of a dumping ground. Grossly incorrect BCs, these profiles from some dude, at some match, etc. I think if someone is halfway serious, and they're working with a bullet for any length of time, they're more than likely not just casually using a profile they pulled up in the app for any length of time. Maybe as a starting point, but I would foresee them tuning it for their use over time. Perhaps having all the bullets at the tip of your finger can be useful for analysis or comparisons but it would just be a coarse look.

For me, it's a nice to have but not something I rely upon. And I also don't blindly trust the profile. I still have to true and confirm/ tweak the profile before I start employing the load.

This 100%

Some of the AB BC’s are wonky and I’m finding better results with G1/G7 and truing than CDM’s.

 

[Fig]

I'd like to comment, but I've been muted...

 

[Steel head]

Shush you

Fig is oppressed.

 

[Geno C.]

Like above, if it’s accurate, then sweet. But unless you’re the one getting the real numbers or getting them from a trusted source, then I like to add all my own numbers.

 

[Powder_Burns]

The bullet libraries are great if the app doesn’t let you specify bullet dimensions and sd along with BC. If you could input all the relevant values, or had a bc estimation calculator based off your dope, one might not need the library. That said, there are only so many pills on the market, once a library has been fleshed out and verified over doppler, its not too common to have a bullet that isn’t on the list already to get drag data for.

 

[acudaowner]

I think it could be a great thing to have an one's finger tips depending on the information that is given about all the different rounds that are out there and have been out there in the past .

 

[Jack Master]

I'd look at this from 3 positions. A beginner shooter, A competent shooter and a Proficient Shooter and taking a look from the marketing standpoint for each.

A beginner Shooter:
This guy is looking for the easy road because he does not know any better or much about the ballistic "stuff". Its the everyday hunter that wants to shoot further (300-500) with a little more confidence. This guy wants and Needs a bullet library. Having a bullet library might be the reason he starts using your device and is a good marketing tool.
The Competent shooter:
This guy has some experience and is getting the hang of shooting long range. He'll true his program the best he can out to 800 or 1000 and being close is "cool". This might be the first time match shooter. He might want to start with the library bullet and change the velocity to true or bump a form factor/BC to get things right.
The Proficient shooter:
These guys are here commenting. They are used to running Custom Drag models and having perfect dope out to 1500 yards to competitions. These guys understand ballistics very well and know what needs to be done to get thier data to line up. These are the shooters that will probably not use the bullet library and true withe the BC and MV or Form factor.

Marketing wise, this comes down to what your target market is and where you want to drive the product. Having a bullet library could be expensive.
If you want the average Joe-plumber to run the system a bullet library is very appealing and efficient for them. If you only care about the top end shooters then don't worry about the Bullet Library.

I would push for a bullet library. (with correct data)
If the beginning shooter starts to use program "A" and has moderate success, then becomes the competent shooter its tough to get them to change to program "B". They have had success with the first one that was easy and now its working better because they figured out how to true it. That same shooter might not ever give your program a shot because they are "stuck" on the old one.

For every P-dog/ground hog/deer hunter out there and the joe-plumber with any AR that thinks is a 700yd gun, I'd have a bullet library.
Just me 2c.

 

[Snuby642]

Yes please.

Some things are a pain to find.
Some manufacturers leave out critical information by neglect or design.

Oal
Bto
Ogive - tangent, secant, hybrid
Bc
Expansion velocities if any
Minimum twist rates

I understand some tolerances may vary but a nominal measurement should be a common courtesy.
In many cases crickets.

Also.

I'd like to comment, but I've been muted...

Sory to here of your mutation sir.

 

[Steel head]

You bring up a good point. Intentionally proofed profiles (CDM's) vs. aggregated manufacturers BCs.

It used to be back in the day before Litz was a big shot and inaccessible, and before we had Magnetos I would hit him up on Accurate Shooter and get proofed BCs from him for the bullets I was shooting and then derive my MV using the BC as an anchor. I only used the Chrono for SDs. I think ABs bullet library started out great because he was including his proofed BCs with the manufacturers. And I used some CDMs early on with good effect but over time they haven't all worked for me. Since you can't use DSF in super and Id rather trust the Magneto, Ive gravitated to G7's trued by anchoring the trajectory in MV from a pretty solid source.

Some of the bullet library discussion leads back to truing. I think people try to do it two different ways. They either try to derive an accurate MV and BC or they don't care if one of those is inaccurate, as long as the trajectory is true. And I think in most of the ranges we shoot at, it's very possible to have an inaccurate BC and MV that happen to line up, as a combination, well enough to get hits. If you're okay deviating from a MS or Labradar MV to true using a bullet library profile you're more likely to rely on a bullet library. If you want to rely on what should be a pretty solid MV from one of those two devices, understanding that BCs do vary from barrel to barrel, and true your own G7 your probably less likely to rely on the library.

Sorry if that's an off topic tangent.

My guess as to why CDM’s and some BC’ seem off is changes in the manufacturing of bullets.
I’ve seen this from Hornandy and Berger.
More with Hornandy but most recently with Berger 190LRHT (and I’m totally good with it because the BC increased)

 

[Huskydriver]

I'd like to comment, but I've been muted...

Your comments...NOT APPRECIATED

 

[LastShot300]

Like above, if it’s accurate, then sweet. But unless you’re the one getting the real numbers or getting them from a trusted source, then I like to add all my own numbers.

Nice to have but not really useful, like you said my own data is always better. How often the data will be updated? another point to consider.

 

[_Windrider_]

I say yes to a bullet library for one main reason. I don’t want to input and measure my bullet. It’s nice to just select my bullet and that info is there. Any BC data that is provided is just a reference at a specific MV, I’m gonna tweak it anyway. Because of that from my perspective I don’t see why you wouldn’t include it

 

[SD Carpenter]

It is such a nice feature to have. I like how Igor did strelok in that you can edit them of you need to, which can be helpful to "make" a new bullet profile before it gets posted. It really makes comparing ballistics across different what of scenarios very simple.

 

[Steel head]

I say yes to a bullet library for one main reason. I don’t want to input and measure my bullet. It’s nice to just select my bullet and that info is there. Any BC data that is provided is just a reference at a specific MV, I’m gonna tweak it anyway. Because of that from my perspective I don’t see why you wouldn’t include it

Yea
Quick basics is nice.

 

[LastShot300]

I say yes to a bullet library for one main reason. I don’t want to input and measure my bullet. It’s nice to just select my bullet and that info is there. Any BC data that is provided is just a reference at a specific MV, I’m gonna tweak it anyway. Because of that from my perspective I don’t see why you wouldn’t include it

Good point, but back to how accurate and current the data is, and as you pointed out, it's just a reference making it not not that useful. Bullet makers sites are always a much better resource and just a click away.

 

[Geno C.]

Does anyone know what bullet length influences on your trajectory in your preferred ballistic calculator? I know what it does in AB. It is essentially meaningless. Especially if you turn off spin drift.

Friend of mine had the the weight and bc right on a 416 bullet, diameter and length were WAY off! He was making hits out to 2000ish after being close with his first shot

 

[Snuby642]

Im figuring at those 2000 ish ranges spin drift does matter.

I see no advantage to turning it off from medium range and out.

 

[Steel head]

Im figuring at those 2000 ish ranges spin drift does matter.

I see no advantage to turning it off from medium range and out.

I see it on those rare occasions with super mild wind.
It still isn’t much at 2000 yards.
It’s usually less than predicted.

 

[_Windrider_]

Yes. At longer ranges it does matter. But I almost never worry about bullet length. If I had to measure my bullets for that extreme minority of profiles that I use to shoot at those ranges because I don't have a bullet library however would not be a major inconvenience.

Some of us use factory ammo a lot. I don’t want to have to pull a bullet. I could look it up but why not just have it?

 

[Snuby642]

Some mfg have it some don't and some are online.
It's a small input to my calculator but I put it in.

For me it is more for bullet selection especially in a mag length or bolt with mag lenght specs .

I dont want to fool with some bullets that are too long to work in them.

And companies should disclose the ogive type and placement for proper selection.

Not every gun / chamber will shoot secant worth a danm but like work fine with a tangent.

 

[Snuby642]

The twist rate matters especially when subsonic.

Try using a 1/10 for a 220 sub.
Hint remove your suppressor first.

I have yet to consult any of my ballistics calculators in the field.

I use them for initial dope for new rounds.

It just saves time and money.

A quick look at dial ups is nice between all the different calibers and barrel lenghts.

One competition round would be easy enough for even a dumbshit civilian to memorize.

Don't you think?

 

[Long Range 338]

Not a necessity but definitely nice to have when comparing ballistic data in a hypothetical situation. Lets say I am debating between a couple different bullet options, it would be nice to run the numbers on the fly without having to go to websites or reloading manuals. Or in the case of helping another shooter who doesn't have all the pertinent data for their setup.

One item that seems to be difficult to locate for most manufacturers is the bullet length. I've found it easier to build a quick profile in AB to get bullet length than to go to the individual manufacturers website and locate the specific bullet.

And lets face it, we are lazy. Anything that will save us work will be an appreciated features, especially if other apps offer it.

 

[Snuby642]

Lets just say if you on a regular basis had to dial in scopes on any caliber any brand of ammo any configuration that a ballistic calculator is your friend.

The ability to provide a basic range card is a plus.

Some of these guns are for new shooters and they greatly appreciate it.

A basic bore site job is not going to cut it for some of these noobs.

But they have money and an interest in shooting.

Some are traveling and busy some are coming in on leave or rotation and want a turnkey job to a one inch dot at 100 yards.

They want to start ahead of the game.

I want all available input to save my time and shoulder for the next one.

 

[Steel head]

Lets just say if you on a regular basis had to dial in scopes on any caliber any brand of ammo any configuration that a ballistic calculator is your friend.

The ability to provide a basic range card is a plus.

Some of these guns are for new shooters and they greatly appreciate it.

A basic bore site job is not going to cut it for some of these noobs.

But they have money and an interest in shooting.

Some are traveling and busy some are coming in on leave or rotation and want a turnkey job to a one inch dot at 100 yards.

They want to start ahead of the game.

I want all available input to save my time and shoulder for the next one.

5-10 years ago I wanted all those newb features.
Now I don’t want any extra fluff, I know what I want now and can find the information I need.

 

[LawnMM]

Depends on the context and the data contained within the 'library'

In the traditional sense it saves me the trouble of looking up length and building a g1/g7 profile manually.

In the context of a library like Applied Ballistics has been putting out for years that's a whole other animal.

I remember the initial draw to the Litz and AB libraries were they were believed to be more realistic and 'real world' numbers. Not a best case scenario out of a 30" test barrel at a factory.

Now, with custom drag data for individual bullets being tracked by Doppler through transonic?

Hell, I don't know how it gets any better than that except maybe taking advantage of the AB mobile trailer and getting a curve for your actual gun with you shooting it

And they're doing that, too.

If you're working on a new software package, something akin to FFS for 1500+ yard shots, I wouldn't worry much about a library.

If you're taking aim at the 0-1500yd market, I wish you the best, it's already crowded and dominated by a few choices, with good reason IMO. It works.

 

[Clearlight]

Being able to train new shooters in a one day crash course in running a solver using
a bullet library in AB is great. It fast tracks the day so we can move on to actually
shooting. Get them to download the app prior to the class, and they are ringing
steel very quickly.

I use a Garmin 701 with drag curves velocity and temp/pressure trued. Last time out,
cold bore on a 10 x 10 @ 900 then 1250 and 1550. Yeah I know, FFS and Coldbore.... I
find FFS a bit clunky and I’m not interested in dealing with the license/device issues
with Coldbore.

EDIT: If you are thinking of setting up a bullet library, maybe start in a niche like ELR.
Not going to make you any $$ but good to establish credibility, and iron out bugs.
Sad to to say, but the big dollars might be in selling a cheap solver/device to the
unwashed masses.

 

[THEIS]

If you're working on a new software package, something akin to FFS for 1500+ yard shots, I wouldn't worry much about a library.

If you're taking aim at the 0-1500yd market, I wish you the best, it's already crowded and dominated by a few choices, with good reason IMO. It works.

Hi,

Patagonia Ballistics "Coldbore" is well established in the ELR world and such.
We are just bringing the engine behind Coldbore to the Android and Apple app systems under a Joint Venture company.
Although the new program will have features and such that Coldbore and other apps currently do not have.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Clearlight]

Coldbore on IOS? Take my money...

 

[Geno C.]

Maybe I should diversify. Up until a couple years ago, I always ran jbm online and printed little dope cards. I make the jump to TRASOL and it was leaps and bounds easier to use. I’m always down to try something new. Not much I don’t like about it but, you don’t know, what you don’t know... for short range, a bullet library would be good to get people plenty close enough. For elr, it always needs tweaked to perfectly match a specific system so I don’t see a need for it in that application

 

[LastShot300]

Coldbore on IOS? Take my money...

that makes two of us. I run CB on an old Nokia and can't wait to see this engine on those platforms. I just hope Theis stops teasing us and release the app soon

 

[THEIS]

Coldbore on IOS?

Hi,

Yes the engine behind "Coldbore" is being integrated into a new interface with new features

Sincerely,
Theis

that makes two of us. I run CB on an old Nokia and can't wait to see this engine on those platforms. I just hope Theis stops teasing us and release the app soon

Hi,

That one....well is not on me, lol....but this is the latest "progression" update directly from the mad scientist himself:

"I almost forgot to say, that today the DESIGN phase is over.
Right on time and on schedule!
Next phase is to start building the UX in XAML and start testing the code"

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[T Bear]

BC is not a constant ! Elevation , temperature , humidity all effect bullet performance.
Get a good log book , record environmental conditions & score for each shoot.
Wise use of log book will boost your scores & confidence.
Thank you
T-bear
Bill

 

[Fig]

The ballistic coefficient of a specific bullet design (it's sectional density and air resistence/drag) is for all practical purposes, a constant. Environmental factors that will affect trajectory are not BC. This is why you plug a bullet's BC into a solver, or choose one from a library, and you're done with BC.
It certainly isn't everything, if that's what you're getting at, but the term itself applies as a constant in the equation, and is the critical starting point along with velocity.

 

[Long Range 338]

BC is not a constant ! Elevation , temperature , humidity all effect bullet performance.
Get a good log book , record environmental conditions & score for each shoot.
Wise use of log book will boost your scores & confidence.
Thank you
T-bear
Bill

So your answer to the OP's question is no then?

 

[Huskydriver]

So your answer to the OP's question is no then?

Been a ton of Earth shattering 1st post by new Jack's the last two weeks...

 

[THEIS]

BC is not a constant ! Elevation , temperature , humidity all effect bullet performance.
Get a good log book , record environmental conditions & score for each shoot.
Wise use of log book will boost your scores & confidence.
Thank you
T-bear
Bill

Hi,

And run your ballistic calculations at 0% humidity then at 100% humidity and post your differences.
Bet you it is less than a 1mph wind call error.
Everybody that watched "Shooter" always gives Humidity more credit than it deserves, lol.

Show me a firing solution that humidity set at 50% caused you to miss as to where if you had it set to 85 or 25 or whatever exact humidity was you would have hit the target.
Bet you cannot!!!

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[_Windrider_]

Been a ton of Earth shattering 1st post by new Jack's the last two weeks...

Fact.

 

[Dthomas3523]

BC is not a constant ! Elevation , temperature , humidity all effect bullet performance.
Get a good log book , record environmental conditions & score for each shoot.
Wise use of log book will boost your scores & confidence.
Thank you
T-bear
Bill

 

[Fig]

 

[_Windrider_]

Haha

 

[TheGerman]

Is this in MILS or MOA?

Will it include spin drift and coriolis?

Is this still available?

 

[Steel head]

Is this in MILS or MOA?

Will it include spin drift and coriolis?

Is this still available?

Your comment is not appreciated!


I’m looking forward to see how Theis’s new project pans out.

 

[LastShot300]

Is this in MILS or MOA?

Will it include spin drift and coriolis?

Is this still available?

Check this thread out on Theis new software

Genesis Ballistics Solutions--Android Now Available!!

Hi, So we finally have the app development team lined out for a new ballistic app system that is a joint venture between Hoplite Arms and Patagonia Ballistics so I would like to here what you all have to say on Range Card Layouts. What are your desires/request/must have/cannot have/etc etc...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Nik H]

Hi,

Yes the engine behind "Coldbore" is being integrated into a new interface with new features

Sincerely,
Theis



Hi,

That one....well is not on me, lol....but this is the latest "progression" update directly from the mad scientist himself:

"I almost forgot to say, that today the DESIGN phase is over.
Right on time and on schedule!
Next phase is to start building the UX in XAML and start testing the code"

Sincerely,
Theis

I run CB on a NOMAD

THIS IS GREAT!!