Can someone identify this old rifle?

[pepper 2111]

I have no clue what it is, the only markings on it are Chinese/Japanese

 

[roostercogburn98]

Type 38 Arisaka

 

[pepper 2111]

Damn you’re good! Any idea on a value? She’s obviously rough and it’s missing a spring

 

[roostercogburn98]

Still has the mum so that helps value some. I’m rusty on old jap guns but here is a site that will clear some of the markings up for you. It has what I believe is called the “school mark” in front of the mum. I have read somewhere that this mark isn’t real sought after by collectors but I could be wrong. My best guess 300-500 bucks.

http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html

 

[Supersubes]

I always thought the cartridge for those was interesting. The 6.5x50 Arisaka was adopted in 1897. Looks like a rimmed .260 Remington. Was loaded with a 139 grain bullet even. Like the 6.5x55 Swede, way ahead of its time. Took us yanks another 100 years to figure out the merits of those cartridges.

 

[pepper 2111]

Nice! Thanks fellas

 

[Dan M]

The Type 38s shoot. 15 rds a little under 2” at 100.

 

[Blue Sky Country]

Type 38 Arisaka

A considerable number of them still exist in the People's Defense Units (militia) armories in the PRC today. They had been used in combat by the PLA as late as the 1979-1981 Sino-Vietnamese War. The war exploded so fast that some front line units could not wait for Type-56 automatic rifles to be sent to the marshalling point or even airdropped. They took Arisakas and Hanyang/Zhongzhen Mausers from the nearest PDU armories and threw them to the troops as soon as they disembarked from the trucks and trains. Think of the scene from Enemy At The Gates and it is not that different, although in a more orderly fashion and there were enough guns and ammo for everybody.

Today, they are mostly kept for TV and film. You might also find high school students undergoing mandatory Jun Xueng (in curriculum military training) using them for their marksmanship quals.

 

[Son of Dorn]

A considerable number of them still exist in the People's Defense Units (militia) armories in the PRC today. They had been used in combat by the PLA as late as the 1979-1981 Sino-Vietnamese War. The war exploded so fast that some front line units could not wait for Type-56 automatic rifles to be sent to the marshalling point or even airdropped. They took Arisakas and Hanyang/Zhongzhen Mausers from the nearest PDU armories and threw them to the troops as soon as they disembarked from the trucks and trains. Think of the scene from Enemy At The Gates and it is not that different, although in a more orderly fashion and there were enough guns and ammo for everybody.

Today, they are mostly kept for TV and film. You might also find high school students undergoing mandatory Jun Xueng (in curriculum military training) using them for their marksmanship quals.

There was enough ammo for everyone in Enemy At the Gates, it was just loaded into the machine guns and not the rifle clips.

 

[Blue Sky Country]

There was enough ammo for everyone in Enemy At the Gates, it was just loaded into the machine guns and not the rifle clips.

Word... That is a statement worthy of a meme.

Classic Soviet thinking right there. It was a wonder that the Red Army had even prevailed due to the tremendous numbers of men, especially from the penal and suicide battalions, who defected to the German lines as soon as they got the opportunity.

One of my favorite novels is Siege: A Novel of the Eastern Front: 1942, by Russ Schneider. Told from the perspective of two Wehrmacht infantrymen, Kordts and Freitag, whose units had been among the first to blitzkrieg into Russia at the beginning of Operation Barbarossa and to be annihilated during the Red Army's massive winter offensive in late 1941. Shattered remains of once cohesive units now ran pell mell along the roads trying to escape the Soviet onslaught and survive the subzero temperatures of one of the most brutal Russian winters on historical record. Kordts and Freitag ended up at the destroyed husk of a town called Cholm, where less than 148 German survivors faced 52 days of siege and nonstop bombardment and frontal assaults by the Red Army. One of the most eye-opening statements in the story was how hundreds of Russian soldiers from the army besieging the town defected and ran into the town to voluntarily become POW's of the Germans. Yes you read that correctly. Soldiers from a besieging army defecting into the lines of the besieged. That was how appalling the conditions were in the Red Army...

 

[sandwarrior]

View attachment 7186741
The Type 38s shoot. 15 rds a little under 2” at 100.

Took ya fifteen shots to finally hit the bullseye? ....? Nice shooting Dan!

I'll agree with what's above. The Japanese 6.5 was a cartridge waaaaay ahead of it's time that really suffered from the military mindset of the day. It had a ton of potential that was never exploited.

 

[pmclaine]

Japs were ahead of the curve.

They chrome lined their barrels.

Means a Jap barrel is usually in better shape bore wise than its other contemporary rifles.

Thats a good shooter.

Until you actually shoulder and fire anything from that era you have no appreciation of how "fine" the sights are and learn why the Garand sights were so revolutionary.

 

[pmclaine]

Word... That is a statement worthy of a meme.

Classic Soviet thinking right there. It was a wonder that the Red Army had even prevailed due to the tremendous numbers of men, especially from the penal and suicide battalions, who defected to the German lines as soon as they got the opportunity.

One of my favorite novels is Siege: A Novel of the Eastern Front: 1942, by Russ Schneider. Told from the perspective of two Wehrmacht infantrymen, Kordts and Freitag, whose units had been among the first to blitzkrieg into Russia at the beginning of Operation Barbarossa and to be annihilated during the Red Army's massive winter offensive in late 1941. Shattered remains of once cohesive units now ran pell mell along the roads trying to escape the Soviet onslaught and survive the subzero temperatures of one of the most brutal Russian winters on historical record. Kordts and Freitag ended up at the destroyed husk of a town called Cholm, where less than 148 German survivors faced 52 days of siege and nonstop bombardment and frontal assaults by the Red Army. One of the most eye-opening statements in the story was how hundreds of Russian soldiers from the army besieging the town defected and ran into the town to voluntarily become POW's of the Germans. Yes you read that correctly. Soldiers from a besieging army defecting into the lines of the besieged. That was how appalling the conditions were in the Red Army...

.....and German racial policies alienated any possible support on a large scale they could have taken advantage of.

Ukrainians met the German Army with bread and salt than had their villages burnt in response.

 

[pmclaine]

If that is an original sling that might be the most valuable part of the rifle. I guess many didnt survive.

 

[Son of Dorn]

If that is an original sling that might be the most valuable part of the rifle. I guess many didnt survive.

Also has its dust cover. Can't really speak to Type 38s but most Type 99s don't have them anymore, so that might add a bit too.

@Blue Sky Country I've never read that; I think I might get myself a copy. As for Russkies willingly surrendering to the Germans, makes sense. Unless you were an "undesirable", being a POW of the Germans was probably infinitely better than the risk of being shot in the back by Komrade Kommissar because you paused to reflect on your imminent demise when charging a machine gun nest. In order from best to worst, from what I learned doing research papers over the years, I reckon from best to worst you'd want to be a POW of the USA > Britain > Germany > Russia > Japan. To compare, there was an instance of a U boat crew being sent to a POW camp in the USA; they actually managed to escape just before Christmas... and most of them just went into town for a day and willingly returned to the prison (movie theater and bars are fun!), with a few of their officers and men enjoying their freedom a little longer (until just after New Year's, I think) before voluntarily walking back up to the gates because they considered it a matter of honor. I might be misremembering but I don't think they were even punished for it or at least not very harshly. By contrast, the Russian-captured crews treated them like slaves and worked them ragged building the Moscow metro. That's not a universal truth across the war, of course, but on the other hand, there's a reason why Red Army brutality is present and even highlighted in fiction from movies to video games. Shooting men for retreating is absurd; I wouldn't blame any Red Army soldier for wanting to do his best to get captured.

 

[pepper 2111]

Damn you all really know your stuff! Here’s the real question...anyone want to buy it??

 

[pmclaine]

Also has its dust cover. Can't really speak to Type 38s but most Type 99s don't have them anymore, so that might add a bit too.

@Blue Sky Country I've never read that; I think I might get myself a copy. As for Russkies willingly surrendering to the Germans, makes sense. Unless you were an "undesirable", being a POW of the Germans was probably infinitely better than the risk of being shot in the back by Komrade Kommissar because you paused to reflect on your imminent demise when charging a machine gun nest. In order from best to worst, from what I learned doing research papers over the years, I reckon from best to worst you'd want to be a POW of the USA > Britain > Germany > Russia > Japan. To compare, there was an instance of a U boat crew being sent to a POW camp in the USA; they actually managed to escape just before Christmas... and most of them just went into town for a day and willingly returned to the prison (movie theater and bars are fun!), with a few of their officers and men enjoying their freedom a little longer (until just after New Year's, I think) before voluntarily walking back up to the gates because they considered it a matter of honor. I might be misremembering but I don't think they were even punished for it or at least not very harshly. By contrast, the Russian-captured crews treated them like slaves and worked them ragged building the Moscow metro. That's not a universal truth across the war, of course, but on the other hand, there's a reason why Red Army brutality is present and even highlighted in fiction from movies to video games. Shooting men for retreating is absurd; I wouldn't blame any Red Army soldier for wanting to do his best to get captured.

The Germans were viewed as liberators in some areas of the CCCP up until the point their racial policies became reality.

Ukraine having gone through the Holdomor(Sp) was happy to see Germans until they learned a new "H" word Holocaust.

Nearby Fort Devens held German and Italian prisoners.

Many of the prisoners in the USA were captured in fighting the North African/Sicily campaigns. I dont think there was time or ability to ship prisoners from the European campaigns out of Europe.

There are stories of the people in towns adjacent to Fort devens recalling POWs getting passes to go to town. A big part of the effort in the POW camps was the De - "Nazi/Facism"ication of prisoners.

In the case of the Germans hard core groups strongly resisted those efforts. There were murders of prisoners deemed too close to their captors.

http://usgerrelations.traces.org/2002conference.nhaase.html

 

[Son of Dorn]

The Germans were viewed as liberators in some areas of the CCCP up until the point their racial policies became reality.

Ukraine having gone through the Holdomor(Sp) was happy to see Germans until they learned a new "H" word Holocaust.

Nearby Fort Devens held German and Italian prisoners.

Many of the prisoners in the USA were captured in fighting the North African/Sicily campaigns. I dont think there was time or ability to ship prisoners from the European campaigns out of Europe.

There are stories of the people in towns adjacent to Fort devens recalling POWs getting passes to go to town. A big part of the effort in the POW camps was the De - "Nazi/Facism"ication of prisoners.

In the case of the Germans hard core groups strongly resisted those efforts. There were murders of prisoners deemed too close to their captors.

http://usgerrelations.traces.org/2002conference.nhaase.html

U-boat crews were a slightly different story, since they were picked up at sea and so often got transported by the ships to wherever they were headed. But as far as the de-Nazification went, the Kriegsmarine was probably somewhat less political in a few ways. Doenitz may have been a pretty hardcore Nazi but he had the sense to know that men cooped up in a tight metal box together for months at a time like that had no room for political matters and many U-boat crews weren't too pleased with political officers showing up and getting in the way. Not getting killed by the myriad difficulties of submarine warfare takes precedence over being good little Nazi boys no matter how much indoctrination one has.

But yeah, as I said, as long as you weren't an undesirable, you had a somewhat better chance of treatment at the hands of the Germans than the Russians or Japanese. That's not saying a lot, 'cause at one point or another every country maltreated prisoners to some degree or another, but the Western Allies probably had a better track record with treating their POWs as human beings in spite of everything. One U-boat crewer's notes, after getting to know the family of a farmer he'd been trucked off to work for as a POW, mentioned a conversation with the wife: He said "You're all such nice people to us even though our countries are at war. It's hard to believe your people could bomb Dresden." She replied something similar, adding, "And it's hard to believe that yours could bomb Coventry."

 

[pmclaine]

U-boat crews were a slightly different story, since they were picked up at sea and so often got transported by the ships to wherever they were headed. But as far as the de-Nazification went, the Kriegsmarine was probably somewhat less political in a few ways. Doenitz may have been a pretty hardcore Nazi but he had the sense to know that men cooped up in a tight metal box together for months at a time like that had no room for political matters and many U-boat crews weren't too pleased with political officers showing up and getting in the way. Not getting killed by the myriad difficulties of submarine warfare takes precedence over being good little Nazi boys no matter how much indoctrination one has.

But yeah, as I said, as long as you weren't an undesirable, you had a somewhat better chance of treatment at the hands of the Germans than the Russians or Japanese. That's not saying a lot, 'cause at one point or another every country maltreated prisoners to some degree or another, but the Western Allies probably had a better track record with treating their POWs as human beings in spite of everything. One U-boat crewer's notes, after getting to know the family of a farmer he'd been trucked off to work for as a POW, mentioned a conversation with the wife: He said "You're all such nice people to us even though our countries are at war. It's hard to believe your people could bomb Dresden." She replied something similar, adding, "And it's hard to believe that yours could bomb Coventry."

As an interesting aside (sorry OP for shitting up your thread but history is not history)......

Buried at Devens......

U-873 under Friedrich Steinhoff surrendered in Portsmouth NH 16/17 May 1945, he committed suicide in jail - Eric Wiberg

Patrol 72, U-873 Friedrich Steinhoff, 4 days, May 13-17 1945, surrendered Portsmouth, NH. Friedrich Steinhoff, who brought U-873 to New England in order to surrender in Portsmouth, NH on May 17th 1945. Photo courtesy of http://uboat.net/men/steinhoff.htm Kapitänleutnant Friedrich “Fritz”...

ericwiberg.com

I understand this Uboat Capt was early on involved with the concept of launching missiles from a sub.

 

[Son of Dorn]

As an interesting aside (sorry OP for shitting up your thread but history is not history)......

Buried at Devens......

U-873 under Friedrich Steinhoff surrendered in Portsmouth NH 16/17 May 1945, he committed suicide in jail - Eric Wiberg

Patrol 72, U-873 Friedrich Steinhoff, 4 days, May 13-17 1945, surrendered Portsmouth, NH. Friedrich Steinhoff, who brought U-873 to New England in order to surrender in Portsmouth, NH on May 17th 1945. Photo courtesy of http://uboat.net/men/steinhoff.htm Kapitänleutnant Friedrich “Fritz”...

ericwiberg.com

I understand this Uboat Capt was early on involved with the concept of launching missiles from a sub.

I should like to find out more of that missile-launching stuff. Says his brother was doing rocketry for the Luftwaffe before being part of Paperclip and getting put in the Space Hall of Fame. Guess we'll never know why Steinhoff killed himself but damn, his brother kinda just adds some insult to it.

 

[pmclaine]

I should like to find out more of that missile-launching stuff. Says his brother was doing rocketry for the Luftwaffe before being part of Paperclip and getting put in the Space Hall of Fame. Guess we'll never know why Steinhoff killed himself but damn, his brother kinda just adds some insult to it.

Articles indicate his incarceration/interrogation at Charles Street jail in Boston did not seem to meet his perceived station/status as a UBoat Captain.

Odd thing is I think the recollection of his suicide at Devens records him having surrendered his ship and crew than returning to his cabin in the boat to kill himself with a pistol.

Ill have to go by the cemetery and refresh my memory on that.

German/Italian consulates go to Devens every October, first or second week and decorate the graves of their POWS with flower wreathes in their respective national colors.

 

[pepper 2111]

Someone should buy this piece of history ?

 

[Cheyenne Bodie]

I got $5 on it.