Advanced Marksmanship Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

#51
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

JHuskey,
Good advice as well, but the 1/2" past the end of the reciever is a good rule of thumb, but when the LOP is to long and you cant get a good cheek weld, first thing i would do is move the scope back to the shooter to where he isnt craning his neck to get a clear edge to edge picture. Also if he raised the Karsten up it may or may not make his "vertical strain" of his head better. From the picture i cant tell how much room he has to "play" with in regards to the tube/ring placement. Im fairly certain he can move the front ring back(towards the shooter) and then slide the whole scope itself back towards the shooter though
 
#52
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Here's a pic I just took of the rifle in its current configuration with the scope moved back. It could come back another 1/2" in the rings and another slot on the mount.

CIMG3027.jpg


Also, the cheekpiece is something I made, so I could make any modifications to it that were necessary.
 
#53
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Tim and Deadly0311,

Where Tim describes looking through his eyebrow could be because his head is angled too far forward towards the muzzle and not oriented up.
This is one thing I have to correct with my guys frequently and most frequently when the ground slopes head down.

A good side shot picture of Tim on the rifle at his best position would be worth a 1000 words. Pic from the shoulders to the front of the ejection port.

Tim could also find the slope/level he needs, using the bench, but raising the chair until his upper body is almost prone on the table, finding the issues in small increments as the chair comes up.
 
#54
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

All,

Of course, at some point Tim will need to fit what he's got. It may or may not be ideal for an upright head position. One thing which will clarify the position is to remember to bring the comb to the head rather than the head to the comb. I suggest to students that they grasp the butt of the stock with the firing hand and place it in the pocket of their shoulder before they've rolled into position. I suggest that while still on their side they adjust the butt for the proper cheekweld. This procedure will assure that the position is not so low as to prevent the head/eye to square with the eyepiece or aperture. Sandbag or bipod will then be adjusted to get elevation as required. When the non-firing hand is used to control, such as in unsupported prone or prone with sling, elevation can be adjusted by short stocking or stretching the body.

Using a rifle that has an adjustable comb, it's not so easy to get a proper relationship between shooter, gun, and ground, since any adustment of the comb will effect butt to shoulder placement. For example, raising the comb in effect lowers the butt. Unfortunately, effectively lowering the butt will bring about other issues, mostly, regarding muscular relaxation and elevation when shooting from the prone position.

If the position with ideal stockweld indeed makes the butt too low, a three way or four way butt plate, with butt plate raised, can ease the pain, providing for complete muscular relaxation. I like a low gun position, it seems more stable. With Service Rifle and sling I have no problem getting it all to work out to be as relaxed as I can imagine. Interestingly, with a match rifle, fitted with a prone stock, adjustable for just about everything, although the low gun position is possible by adjustment of the comb, butt, and hand-stop rail, it, ironically, is still not as comfortable as a bone stock AR-15.

Sometimes complete muscular relaxation/comfort, as important to good shooting as it is, will not be possible when the stockweld is proper. Nevertheless, it is the stockweld first and foremost which must be maintained for the best results, that's to say, hitting where aimed.
 
#55
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Samuri,
Then it has nothing to do with the rifle/optic combo changing the POI. Its like i said above, if the shot doesnt go where it should it falls soley on my poor postional shooting. It has nothing to do with the rifle having a different zero as you move postions.</div></div>

Unless the rifle is broken the sight is always in a fixed relationship with the line of bore. If the shot does not go where aimed, either the sight has not been adjusted for zero, or the shooter has some sort of marksmanship error. Yes, if the bullet does not go where aimed it could have something to do with the position being inconsistent. It's consistency with much of everything that makes zeroing possible. So, in effect, when the position changes, and the bullet does not go where aimed, it can be corrected by mustering consistency from which the zero was established, or maintain the current position/alignment and refine the zero. This is why shooting with muscular relaxation is so important, as well as sight alignment based on the shooter's natural ability to center/balance things. It makes consistency easy to repeat. At any rate, commitment to some sort of position consistency/control is essential to establishing and maintaining a zero. In target shooting on scoreable targets with X rings, good hits are possible from a permanent zero but the best hits will require zero refinement when the position goes from prone to something else, since the factors of a steady position are in a different relationship. Yet, as I have been told here by the highest qualified tactical shooting experts, for tactical sniper stuff this refinement is meaningless. I have also been told that Service Rifle competiton, from which I base my observations, is very different than tactical shooting. So, what do I know, about good shooting, apparently not much.
 
#57
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Samuri,
Then it has nothing to do with the rifle/optic combo changing the POI. Its like i said above, if the shot doesnt go where it should it falls soley on my poor postional shooting. It has nothing to do with the rifle having a different zero as you move postions.</div></div>

Unless the rifle is broken the sight is always in a fixed relationship with the line of bore. If the shot does not go where aimed, either the sight has not been adjusted for zero, or the shooter has some sort of marksmanship error. Yes, if the bullet does not go where aimed it could have something to do with the position being inconsistent. It's consistency with much of everything that makes zeroing possible. So, in effect, when the position changes, and the bullet does not go where aimed, it can be corrected by mustering consistency from which the zero was established, or maintain the current position/alignment and refine the zero. This is why shooting with muscular relaxation is so important, as well as sight alignment based on the shooter's natural ability to center/balance things. It makes consistency easy to repeat. At any rate, commitment to some sort of position consistency/control is essential to establishing and maintaining a zero. In target shooting on scoreable targets with X rings, good hits are possible from a permanent zero but the best hits will require zero refinement when the position goes from prone to something else, since the factors of a steady position are in a different relationship. Yet, as I have been told here by the highest qualified tactical shooting experts, for tactical sniper stuff this refinement is meaningless. I have also been told that Service Rifle competiton, from which I base my observations, is very different than tactical shooting. So, what do I know, about good shooting, apparently not much.</div></div>


Sterling,

No one is saying anything about your ability to shoot, however you are looking at things through a different set of eyes, and seeing things differently than we do, mainly because the system is different. Going back to the text I quoted, it clearly states, and we agree, " <span style="font-style: italic">a. No standardization of firing positions can be established for the countersniper as there are for the competitive marksman".</span>

This goes against what you wrote above, you are talking about 1.) consistency of position, and 2.) adjusting your zero to compensate for said position in order to fine tune the accuracy of the position. This is an individual task that, I relate to someone who dials their poor trigger control rather than fix their fundamental issue. Having a consistent position based off your zero, then dialing for any given position to adjust your zero are two different things and contradict each other.

We shot the video, I will be traveling over the next day or so, then I will post it, but needless to say, moving from position to position it was literally 1 hole as you described earlier. The impacts mirrored each other and were well within the accuracy capability of the shooter and rifle, sub 1/2 minute. In fact all the rounds touched that little orange dot in the center of the Shoot N C target.

What I am saying is, there can be no reason a "zero changes" but instead the shooter is causing the shift. In your case you have found that you have a consistent shift and thus dial for each position in order to compensate so you can fine tune each position to match your particular way of shooting. Nothing wrong with that, we see lots of people do it, but it doesn't make it universal for everyone else. And a military shooter doesn't had such a luxury to do this, so they must be taught how to fix the problem, instead of counting on an adjustment to the weapon.
 
#58
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Tim,

Looking at the picture on the computer screen..
Take a ruler. Put the edge of the ruler on the centerline of the scope. Do it with the ruler from the bottom of the scope and also with the ruler from the top of the scope.
See where your eye is in relationship to the ruler, and to the centerline of the scope.
It looks to me when I do the ruler deal, that your eye is too low under the scope, which would explain you looking through your eyebrows.
Try raising the cheek piece to where when you have hard down cheek pressure, your eye is directly behind the scope in a the picture.
It will be uncomfortable to begin with and may hurt, so take some cushions and put under your pecs to take the back strain off while you find that cheek piece position.
I still think the stock has too much drop at the top of the buttplate and will try to go under your shoulder pocket when you raise the cheek piece, so be sure to put a solid bag under the stock to hold it in place until you find the comfortable spot with your cheek piece and eye placement.

You may have to find the head placement before you work on getting the buttstock hard into your shoulder pocket. When you find the head placement, you may find you need to lengthen the stock, not move the scope back. Thats what it looks like in the picture.

When you find it, it will feel natural and you will know it. So we wait to hear what you find when you try this.
 
#59
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What I am saying is, there can be no reason a "zero changes" but instead the shooter is causing the shift. In your case you have found that you have a consistent shift and thus dial for each position in order to compensate so you can fine tune each position to match your particular way of shooting. Nothing wrong with that, we see lots of people do it, but it doesn't make it universal for everyone else. And a military shooter doesn't had such a luxury to do this, so they must be taught how to fix the problem, instead of counting on an adjustment to the weapon.
</div></div>

As you say, the gun doesn't change zero, the shooter does. But... the shooter and the gun are part of the same system, neither much good without the other. The situation that Sterling describes is fairly common in HP - people have a bit of a shift from 200yd Offhand to 200yd RF sitting, etc. It's also fairly common for people to hold the gun a whole lot differently from offhand (held loosely, perhaps even canted inboard) to sitting (*very* tight sling, sometimes canted outboard). Some people hold the gun tighter and/or more vertical in offhand, and experience very little change in zero.

I think you hit on the key point though... the *shooter* is what changes. Some people can shoot from multiple positions with very little change in POI vs. POA. Others... may see more change. Either way... I think the responsible thing for *anyone* to do is to try it and see firsthand how it works for them, rather than just think to themselves "I have a 200yd zero for all positions" without checking. Heck, most of us need the practice anyways - I know I do.
 
#60
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">As you say, the gun doesn't change zero, the shooter does. But... the shooter and the gun are part of the same system, neither much good without the other</span>. The situation that Sterling describes is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">fairly common in HP </span></span>- people have a bit of a shift from 200yd Offhand to 200yd RF sitting, etc. It's also fairly common for people to hold the gun a whole lot differently from offhand (held loosely, perhaps even canted inboard) to sitting (*very* tight sling, sometimes canted outboard). Some people hold the gun tighter and/or more vertical in offhand, and experience very little change in zero.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I think you hit on the key point though... the *shooter* is what changes</span>. Some people can shoot from multiple positions with very little change in POI vs. POA. Others... may see more change. Either way... I think the responsible thing for *anyone* to do is to try it and see firsthand how it works for them, rather than just think to themselves "I have a 200yd zero for all positions" without checking. Heck, most of us need the practice anyways - I know I do. </div></div>

The first bold part of your post that I quoted....we arent talking about the Shooter/rifle "team" he asked if his scope should change zero when moving postions, i also noted that if the shots dont go where they should when changing postions, its not the "zeros" fault, its mine. The italicized text is the biggest hold up for Sterling, this isnt a High Power or Service Rifle site, im not knocking SS at all, just a different game than what he plays, its not a one size fits all with shooting disciplines. I dont have time to "refine" my zero if im in a less than desireable postion in a tactical match or on a 2 way range, just not in the cards. The last bold part, i dont think anyone here is arguing that the shooter doesnt have the most influence over POI differing when moving postions. But again i will say "refining" a zero in the Tactical game is akin to a terrible shooter adding a muzzle brake to a 223 to make up for shitty techniques and fundamentals.
 
#61
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

All,

The assertion that a position change producing a hit other than where aimed is always or must be the result of inconsistent application of the fundementals is just not correct. You could say may be, but not, must be, or always.

Starting with the ARMY definition of a zero (FM 23-9): adjusting the rifle sights so bullets hit the aiming point at any given range, my score book indicates my rifle is zeroed for prone, confirmed by triangulation. In fact, a recent practice score of 198-17 suggests I've got a pinwheel X zero. In anyone's data book that would appear to be a good zero based on the result.

Now, when shooting from the standing position in identical environmental conditions, using the said prone zero, triangulation of group suggests point of impact is 3/4 minute low and 1/4 minute right. Since a blind call and plot for this group confirms the fundementals are being applied as consistently in the standing position as they were in the prone position, after all, the group is well rounded, what am I to do? I could try to re-fine the position which might get em right in there but why when shooter/target analysis suggests that I should just adjust the frigging sight to hit where aimed, which is what I indeed do.

Thing is, I do think tactical shooting, Service Rifle shooting, heck, even F class (I can't believe I said that) are the same. The only thing that could perhaps be construed to be different is the perception of the sort of perfection necessary/accessible to get the job done.

I appreciate the input of deadly0311 and memilanuk on this thread as they give a fresh perspective to an on going debate it seems I'm having with Frank on the matter. Also, as jhuskey alluded, we may both be right, as well as be contemplating what is really no big deal.
 
#62
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

My main point was that once a rifle has a good zero, it will maintain that zero. If you later choose to shoot from a tree, upside down, it'll still be zeroed. It now comes to your shooting position. Which is why I mentioned keeping track of the changes. If your zero is from a bench, and you choose to shoot from sling supported prone position, track your rounds and see what's off. If POI is high, chances are your cheek weld is too low. You get the idea. Zero your weapon, after that it all comes down to basic marksmanship 101.
I think most of us are saying the same things, but all in all I hope this helps, even a little.
 
#63
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you later choose to shoot from a tree, upside down, it'll still be zeroed.</div></div>

I'm sure you didn't <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> mean that, but, for educational purposes, it won't.

That's because the part of your zero setting which compensates for the mechanical offset between the line of sight and the line of bore is reversed, as is the part of your zero which compensates for the bullet drop. You're going to wind up shooting very low.

I could calculate how low, with a given rifle, but I'd want to be paid, probably, since it's now Happy Hour and I'd rather drink.

Cheers!

edited to add: OK, OK, I did the calculation. With my .308, launching Black Hills 175 Match at 100 yards with a sight height of 1.75 inches, it's going to be about 7.15 inches low.
 
#66
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Well as stated we shot the video and the impacts were dead on. So the idea that moving from a prone to a sitting or kneeling changes the impact, zero or otherwise just isn't holding true.

We do this stuff every class, shooting from alternate positions whether supported or slung and we hit the targets without fail. Granted we are not counting X rings but in many cases we are shooting sub MOA targets. We shoot off concrete culvers, off the railroad tie barricades in a variety of positions, the key is we teach the shooter to support the rifle and drive it through recoil. Driving the rifle through recoil allow the shooter to not only maintain their impacts consistent with the zero and their dope, but also allows them to spot their own impacts on target, not losing time.

The idea that if you need 11.5MOA to hit a 500 yard target in the prone , that you would need something different to hit it from the kneeling is silly. What is next a positional ballistic calculator ? If you need something else it is because,You are doing something different or wrong, or both.

We see people during 5 dot speed drills consistently hit low right for every shot to the point they swear their zero is off. At least a minute low and half minute right, yet we know it is not, the shooter is just causing this shift because the influence the time has on their shooting. This is the same if you see a consistent change in any other situation. If it changes it is because you did so, the rifle doesn't care, it stays the same.

I have been careful in qualifying what I have said, why because we do this every single week, shooting from alternate positions. So excuse if this makes no sense to me other than acknowledging that a shooter can influence his impacts to the degree stated. This doesn't mean the deviations are normal, only that the shooter is the weak link. Heck we see on a line of 20 shooters a wind difference of at least 2 mils on a 1000 yard target, simply because people shoot differently. But that doesn't mean the same deviation works for any shooter.

The video will show, we hit the center orange dot on the Shoot N C target from each position, when we compromised the parallax and sight picture the round went more than a minute low right. It was pretty clear, and I will ge the video edited and posted.
 
#67
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

I experienced no zero change shooting ASC last weekend: prone; sitting; kneeling; standing; resting on a pile of logs; off a window ledge; off a window ledge left handed; with the rifle strapped to a tree; using a fence post; resting on a rock pile; 5,10, 20 or 30-degree angle..... my dope was consistently .1 mil less than Exbal said it should be. From any position. All weekend. From 100 to 1235 yards.
 
#68
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well as stated we shot the video and the impacts were dead on. So the idea that moving from a prone to a sitting or kneeling changes the impact, zero or otherwise just isn't holding true.

We do this stuff every class, shooting from alternate positions whether supported or slung and we hit the targets without fail. Granted we are not counting X rings but in many cases we are shooting sub MOA targets. We shoot off concrete culvers, off the railroad tie barricades in a variety of positions, the key is we teach the shooter to support the rifle and drive it through recoil. Driving the rifle through recoil allow the shooter to not only maintain their impacts consistent with the zero and their dope, but also allows them to spot their own impacts on target, not losing time.

The idea that if you need 11.5MOA to hit a 500 yard target in the prone , that you would need something different to hit it from the kneeling is silly. What is next a positional ballistic calculator ? If you need something else it is because,You are doing something different or wrong, or both.

We see people during 5 dot speed drills consistently hit low right for every shot to the point they swear their zero is off. At least a minute low and half minute right, yet we know it is not, the shooter is just causing this shift because the influence the time has on their shooting. This is the same if you see a consistent change in any other situation. If it changes it is because you did so, the rifle doesn't care, it stays the same.

I have been careful in qualifying what I have said, why because we do this every single week, shooting from alternate positions. So excuse if this makes no sense to me other than acknowledging that a shooter can influence his impacts to the degree stated. This doesn't mean the deviations are normal, only that the shooter is the weak link. Heck we see on a line of 20 shooters a wind difference of at least 2 mils on a 1000 yard target, simply because people shoot differently. But that doesn't mean the same deviation works for any shooter.

The video will show, we hit the center orange dot on the Shoot N C target from each position, when we compromised the parallax and sight picture the round went more than a minute low right. It was pretty clear, and I will ge the video edited and posted. </div></div>

Your conclusion comes attached with so many qualifiers, exceptions, and exclusions, like Service Rifle shooting, that the conclusion cannot be accepted as fact. I certainly don't think your video and/or personal experience is anymore reliable or scientific evidence than my score book. At any rate, what I am certain of is your thinking is solid when the word always is not part of the conclusion.

Now, at this point, I'm going to call it a day, having said everything I know about the subject. If any here want to explore the matter objectively, and post there findings I think that would be very entertaining.
 
#69
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Whatever... falling back on the "Cause it happens to you it has to happen to everyone"... my qualifiers are simple, clear edge to edge sight pictured, adjusted parallax and the shooter driving the rifle correctly... the bullet goes where the reticle is pointed, end of story.

What I will admit is people can be very consistent in their errors to make it appear the rifle is doing it. However we all know the truth of the matter, your zero is your zero and dope for a given rifle is its dope.

I can add objective data from every single class, can you?
 
#72
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just drive the rifle instead?</div></div>

Well, if you mean follow-through, it's not about "instead" as it's fundamental to good shooting.
 
#73
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

My Spindrift is always three-quarter MOA regardless of position. Unless I am using Mils. However, my POI always shifts relative to the drift except when it doesn't. Therefore I use compensation to account for the difference. Otherwise, I have increased throat erosion and loss of JBM application which results in excessive dope.
 
#74
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just drive the rifle instead?</div></div>Well, if you mean follow-through, it's not about "instead" as it's fundamental to good shooting. </div></div>I think Jacob means driving as opposed to being a passenger: staying on the rifle and making it do what you want it to do rather than adjusting the sights for what you believe it wants to do.
 
#75
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Well, that's interesting, perhaps it's how to hit where aiming. Isn't that getting the rifle to do what you want it to do. I do that by properly pointing rifle with consistent sight alignment and firing the rifle without moving it utilizing smooth trigger control.
 
#76
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Well like I said, we use the 21 Dot Drill during all our classes, the student will hit the first dot with no time limit... they will hit all 5 on the next row of dots with a 1 Minute time limit, and then on the 3rd row with a 20 Second time limit they are always "low" and either right or left because they push the shot when put under time. I suppose even with the rifle zeroed, and the fact they hit the others, they should have a "speed zero" when they do this. Funny thing is, when we go back and work with on this, for most this disappears... people routinely clean the Dot Drill with time limits as low as 6 seconds from the standing... others continue to miss. Maybe they need a sight adjustment too...
 
#77
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Or maybe...who knows, the only thing that's certain is bullets hit where the barrel is pointed. Not hitting where aimed can be the result of a multitude of problems. If indeed all misses and not on call, I know I'd be thinking about a sight adjustment. In fact it would be the first thing I'd trouble shoot.
 
#79
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

The assertion that a position change producing a hit other than where aimed is always or must be the result of inconsistent application of the fundementals is just not correct. You could say may be, but not, must be, or always.

Starting with the ARMY definition of a zero (FM 23-9): adjusting the rifle sights so bullets hit the aiming point at any given range, my score book indicates my rifle is zeroed for prone, confirmed by triangulation. In fact, a recent practice score of 198-17 suggests I've got a pinwheel X zero. In anyone's data book that would appear to be a good zero based on the result.

Now, when shooting from the standing position in identical environmental conditions, using the said prone zero, triangulation of group suggests point of impact is 3/4 minute low and 1/4 minute right. Since a blind call and plot for this group confirms the fundementals are being applied as consistently in the standing position as they were in the prone position, after all, the group is well rounded, what am I to do? I could try to re-fine the position which might get em right in there but why when shooter/target analysis suggests that I should just adjust the frigging sight to hit where aimed, which is what I indeed do.

Thing is, I do think tactical shooting, Service Rifle shooting, heck, even F class (I can't believe I said that) are the same. The only thing that could perhaps be construed to be different is the perception of the sort of perfection necessary/accessible to get the job done.

I appreciate the input of deadly0311 and memilanuk on this thread as they give a fresh perspective to an on going debate it seems I'm having with Frank on the matter. Also, as jhuskey alluded, we may both be right, as well as be contemplating what is really no big deal.</div></div>

I will state this coming from a new precision shooter so bear with me, but are you saying if my POI changes from my POA in different positions consistently and repeatably I should dial the gun to me? The gun is stupid and does what I tell it to so I would assume I should be the one doing the correcting. While playing golf I had quite a slice that I could play with very well and adapted my game to it for some time, but in the end I changed my swing to drive the ball straight because I was the problem.

It seems like if you bolted the rifle to a bench, zeroed, then bolted the rifle to the ground that its POA and POI would be the same correct? So why shouldn't the shooter replicate that rather than dicking with sight settings? I really don't get this logic at all. This sounds like correcting a "bad" habbit. (bad used for lack of better term) I know using iron sights the sight picture has to be exactly the same to maintain POA/POI and can be harder in different shooting positions, but that is where the scope helps this situation.


I guess what I am saying why do you think the rifle is the mistake and not the shooter? You say yourself that the shooter can be corrected, but you take the easy road and fix the dumb thing(rifle) instead of the shooter.
 
#80
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

TimK,
In the pic your scope looks high or cheek looks low. It is hard to tell in the pic, but that is the looks of it. For what it is worth I find I need really low rings and have to add a lot to the cheekpiece. High cheek bones might be great for "Macking all the bitches" but is not always good for rifle fit. I'm not an expert like some of the guys here. Lately I feel I have been making progress in telling what works for me as opposed to floundering with position problems.

Sterling,
I have heard of service rifle shooters having to add windage & elevation for differing positions. I thought it was to compensate for rifle canting. Don't the match rifle guys cant to add windage? Not trying to fuel any fires. I don't find it affects me, but then again I'm not that good at it.
 
#81
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dial the deficiency, got it. If the bullet doesn't go where the barrel is pointed, adjust the sights.

Sounds like sage advice to me. </div></div>

The bullet always goes where the barrel is pointed, it does not always go where aimed.
 
#82
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jr_V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

The assertion that a position change producing a hit other than where aimed is always or must be the result of inconsistent application of the fundementals is just not correct. You could say may be, but not, must be, or always.

Starting with the ARMY definition of a zero (FM 23-9): adjusting the rifle sights so bullets hit the aiming point at any given range, my score book indicates my rifle is zeroed for prone, confirmed by triangulation. In fact, a recent practice score of 198-17 suggests I've got a pinwheel X zero. In anyone's data book that would appear to be a good zero based on the result.

Now, when shooting from the standing position in identical environmental conditions, using the said prone zero, triangulation of group suggests point of impact is 3/4 minute low and 1/4 minute right. Since a blind call and plot for this group confirms the fundementals are being applied as consistently in the standing position as they were in the prone position, after all, the group is well rounded, what am I to do? I could try to re-fine the position which might get em right in there but why when shooter/target analysis suggests that I should just adjust the frigging sight to hit where aimed, which is what I indeed do.

Thing is, I do think tactical shooting, Service Rifle shooting, heck, even F class (I can't believe I said that) are the same. The only thing that could perhaps be construed to be different is the perception of the sort of perfection necessary/accessible to get the job done.

I appreciate the input of deadly0311 and memilanuk on this thread as they give a fresh perspective to an on going debate it seems I'm having with Frank on the matter. Also, as jhuskey alluded, we may both be right, as well as be contemplating what is really no big deal.</div></div>

I will state this coming from a new precision shooter so bear with me, but are you saying if my POI changes from my POA in different positions consistently and repeatably I should dial the gun to me? The gun is stupid and does what I tell it to so I would assume I should be the one doing the correcting. While playing golf I had quite a slice that I could play with very well and adapted my game to it for some time, but in the end I changed my swing to drive the ball straight because I was the problem.

It seems like if you bolted the rifle to a bench, zeroed, then bolted the rifle to the ground that its POA and POI would be the same correct? So why shouldn't the shooter replicate that rather than dicking with sight settings? I really don't get this logic at all. This sounds like correcting a "bad" habbit. (bad used for lack of better term) I know using iron sights the sight picture has to be exactly the same to maintain POA/POI and can be harder in different shooting positions, but that is where the scope helps this situation.


I guess what I am saying why do you think the rifle is the mistake and not the shooter? You say yourself that the shooter can be corrected, but you take the easy road and fix the dumb thing(rifle) instead of the shooter.</div></div>

The perception of perfect sight alignment and hold do indeed need to be consistent, and, in fact, it's only when a shooter's consistency is honed to produce a group that's real good will the zero be real good. Good groups demand consistent control of the rifle from trigger pull until recoil subsides through steady bone/artificial support. Control of the rifle in prone is like control of the rifle in other positions, in that the elements and factors of a steady position are all applied consistently. What's different however is shooter contact with the rifle. For example, as the position gets higher so does the butt stock. The non-firing hand will also have a different contact point with the stock. This change in contact with the rifle is not a mistake, it's just what it is for muscular relaxation. Since contact with the rifle is part of the zeroing equation, a change in position, in which contact with the rifle is changed as well, will effect movement of the rifle as the bullet travels though the barrel. So, even though control is maintained the divergence from recoil from one position to another, stimulated by different contact, may in effect cause point of impact to be consistently someplace other than point of aim. For this effect, you could attempt to get control of the rifle as it was when zeroed but this may not be possible, imagine supporting a rifle in the standing position as you do in the prone position. Your neck would be very uncomfortable and your non firing arm would likely be trembling so much as to produce needless wobble; and, then you'll not hit anything you're aiming at. In this case, I adjust the sight.
 
#83
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

It could be to compensate for cant. My strategy is not to cant. It's in the sitting position where canting could get me a very relaxed position; however, making the cant consistent is difficult so instead I shoot it straight up although not quite as comfortable. Remember good shooting is based on the shooter's natural ability to center and balance things-canting is in conflict with centering and balancing things.

For shooting other than competition, getting a battle sight zero supplemented with some sort of BDC is all that is necessary to get good hits at any distance/size target, assuming a center of mass hold and correct wind favor. I'm not advocating that anybody change sight setting with position change. It's not necessary or practical for a good hit. However, for the best hits, as may be important in certain scenarios, knowing more than the basics can be helpful. I'm not implying that there's anything esoteric about good shooting, but, with diligent shooter/target analysis, your practice will sooner or later reveal the apocalyptic. Shoot, call, and then plot both the call and strike. Trouble shoot. At some point there will be no more mistakes-you will literally have shot them out to become an extraordinary shooter in what ever arena you're in.
 
#84
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

New shooters,

Sometimes I see shooters new to LR either adjusting, or not adjusting the sight based on perception of conditions rather than knowledge of conditions. It could be that the position was not rebuilt for consistency which produces a shot someplace other than aimed. But, not recognizing the consequence of an inconsistent position, the shooter perceives it must have been the wind that did it. Now, adjusting for non-existent wind, his trouble is just starting. What I'm getting at here is you adjust or do not adjust the sight according to what the reality is rather than perception. Practice and coaching will help you understand what you want to do when indeed you're not hitting where aimed.
 
#85
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Usually that means getting a good sight picture and not screwing up the trigger, because a zeroed weapon is a zeroed weapon whether you like it or not.
Additionally, the rifles doesn't care if you are comfortable
 
#86
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Usually that means getting a good sight picture and not screwing up the trigger, because a zeroed weapon is a zeroed weapon whether you like it or not.
Additionally, the rifles doesn't care if you are comfortable</div></div>

Muscular relaxation is an element of a steady position along with NPA and bone/artifcial support. The gun does not care; but, if I don't, I will not likely hit where aimed.

It's all about sight alignment and trigger control, everything else supports those two concepts.
 
#87
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Seems to me if person A can maintain zero while going from one position to the next, but person B needs to adjust zero for different positions, the person is the variable, not the weapon.

I have a "zero" shift when i shoot from different positions, but I don't doubt for one second that it's me causing the inconsistency, not the rifle. I would like to learn how to shoot well enough to get rid of the zero shift, not adjust my zero, blame it on the rifle and keep doing whatever i'm doing that causes the inconsistency.
 
#88
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Relaxation comes from repetition, some people are not instantly as relaxed as others due to body type, rifle set up, etc. Repetition creates a level of relaxation that allows the shooter, to be more relaxed. Expecting someone to start off adequately relaxed is a false promise when you consider the different body types out there. Bipod heights, stock combs, scope heights, rifle weights, barrel lengths all can contribute to discomfort for a new shooter.

As well you aim down the sight not the barrel, the bullet goes where the barrel is point but we use the sights to aim. So really, the goal is to put the round where the sights are, not were the barrel is, because frankly that is a distraction as if you can see where the barrel is pointed at a target 1000 yards away.

Going back and saying this and that happens when you change position is fine, but it is still the shooter's job to drive the rifle correctly, and by doing so that means putting the rounds were the sights are located regardless of where the barrel is pointed. If you miss your target, or miss where the sights are aimed, <span style="text-decoration: underline">you have incorrectly shot the rifle.</span> So, adjusting the sights to fix that is adjusting for shooter error... focusing on trigger control, follow through, and the other major causes of shooter error is important. Not adjusting the sights every time you miss a target.

You get the best zero on the rifle you can, then you drive the rifle to hit that mark each and every time. If you compromise your cheek weld because of the positional change, it is your job to ensure there is edge to edge clarity in the scope and that the parallax has been removed, which will put the bullet where it is aimed as long as you don't mess up the fundamentals.

Again, referring back to the AMU text:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Effective Shooting

a. <span style="font-weight: bold">No standardization of firing positions can be established for the countersniper as there are for the competitive marksman. The basic fundamentals of aiming, positions, and trigger control that can be found discussed in detail in any marksmanship manual apply to either a competitive shooter or a countersniper. </span>

c. The most important and also the most difficult fundamental to master is trigger control. The majority of misplaced shots stem directly from the improper application of trigger control.

d. A highly accurate zero must be obtained. This can be accomplished with the aid of some type of supported position using sandbags or a bench rest. </div></div>

Trigger control is manipulation of the trigger <span style="font-weight: bold">without disturbing the lay of the sights....</span> it's not lay of the barrel, but the sights. The sights are the key, not the hand, not the stock, not the barrel, but the trigger and sights.

If you want to keep reverting back to Iron Sights and Service Rifle competition, that is fine, but understand that is<span style="font-style: italic"> "competitive marksmanship" </span> as described in the quote, which is different than Tactical Shooting with a Scope and Rifle designed for unconventional application.

Saying, <span style="font-style: italic">"when I shoot standing I add 3/4 moa up and 1/4 moa left"</span> is great for you, but will not translate to everyone equally in any such way. That will not work for me, even if I used your rifle.
 
#89
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems to me if person A can maintain zero while going from one position to the next, but person B needs to adjust zero for different positions, the person is the variable, not the weapon.

I have a "zero" shift when i shoot from different positions, but I don't doubt for one second that it's me causing the inconsistency, not the rifle. I would like to learn how to shoot well enough to get rid of the zero shift, not adjust my zero, blame it on the rifle and keep doing whatever i'm doing that causes the inconsistency.
</div></div>

The realization of a point of impact shift, as you describe it, from point of aim, when changing the position, may mean that actually you are doing things very well. When I first started my journey to good shooting I could not discern when a sight adjustment could improve my performance; and, even today, it's only through blind plot and call excercises that I can be confident in my standing position zero.

In LR shooting, where it's just one position, you should also understand the zero you start wit may not be the zero you end with. I attempt to make the position consistent to a molecular level, but many things in the course of a twenty round string of fire can indicate when a sight adjustment may be a good idea to keep em all going right-in-there. If you're using a score book, you can follow the strike trend to determine when adjustment to the sight may be useful.
 
#90
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

is this what you said?

It's all about sight alignment and trigger control, everything else supports those two concepts.

Because it sounds a lot like:

Usually that means getting a good sight picture and not screwing up the trigger, because a zeroed weapon is a zeroed weapon whether you like it or not.

I am just trying to understand why you are continuing to run this line when you are saying the exact same thing.

Look, ...a rifle is either zeroed or it isn't.
It is also possible to zero to shooter error. However, if it is zeroed to shooter error, then the RIFLE is not really zeroed.

This is so very elementary
 
#91
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is this what you said?

It's all about sight alignment and trigger control, everything else supports those two concepts.

Because it sounds a lot like:

Usually that means getting a good sight picture and not screwing up the trigger, because a zeroed weapon is a zeroed weapon whether you like it or not.

I am just trying to understand why you are continuing to run this line when you are saying the exact same thing.

Look, ...a rifle is either zeroed or it isn't.
It is also possible to zero to shooter error. However, if it is zeroed to shooter error, then the RIFLE is not really zeroed.

This is so very elementary</div></div>

Well, it is elementary, so you should understand it. And no you cannot zero to shooter error, if it's consistent it's not error. Only in inconsistency is there error. That's why the zero is established by triangulation of a group, preferabley a 5 shot group.
 
#92
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The realization of a point of impact shift, as you describe it, from point of aim, when changing the position, may mean that actually you are doing things very well. </div></div>

^^^ I just can't buy this... ^^^

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look, ...a rifle is either zeroed or it isn't.
It is also possible to zero to shooter error. However, if it is zeroed to shooter error, then the RIFLE is not really zeroed.

This is so very elementary </div></div>

^^^ This makes a lot more sense to me, and i agree seems elementary.
 
#93
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

You cannot zero to shooter error... really, so you never saw a person who breaks the shot at different points in the breathing cycle where their group has a bit of vertical stringing, or a shooter who taps the trigger and doesn't follow through with the shot but shoots every round that way. Plenty of people can manage a 1/2 Minute group but string it in one direction or the other, just because they group doesn't make it right.

I guess you just let the shooter, shoot and then just move the sights to where they hit the most instead of correcting a poor trigger control, or inconsistent breathing ? Which doesn't surprise me, we hear about people who just let people shoot, and not much else. We happen to find that correcting these things helps put their rounds in the same place regardless of position.

I would venture to say your molecular level needs some work if that is the case. Not every one shoots a single hole group or a perfect triangle, some actually draw lines in the targets, do to shooter error, yet consider that a proper zero.
 
#94
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<span style="font-style: italic">Well, it is elementary, so you should understand it. And no you cannot zero to shooter error, if it's consistent it's not error. Only in inconsistency is there error. That's why the zero is established by triangulation of a group, preferabley a 5 shot group </span>

This seems to be arguing semantics at best. Sterling, what Jacob is trying to say is that regardless if its "consistent" error or "inconsistent" error, its still error. Again ill go back to my analogy, adjusting the sights to refine the zero when moving to and from postions is akin to a shooter putting a muzzle brake on a 308 because the rifle "hops". Its just not driving the gun right regardless if its consistently bad fundementals or not. So given your theory Sterling, i shouldnt be able to go out to TX and hop down behind Jacob's rifles and hit exactly in the same spot as his zero is at? And vice versa?
 
#95
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Charlie, I beg to differ. You can absolutely zero to a shooting error. I see it every day.
In fact, there are several top notch snipers I know that have come right out and made the statement " I cannot control my flinch, so I dial for it"
This is after I had pointed out that they had a flinch under stress.

Believe me brother, I do understand it. I have made it my life's work to understand it. I can tell you with absolute certainty that a shooter can zero to a shooting error. Just because it is consistent doesn't make it right.

The short fall of these errors become evident when the shooter is placed under stress. That is my job, to create stress in order to show shortcomings that need to be corrected.
This is a very different set of circumstances than competition shooting.
I guess it is just best for you to continue to do what you do with your own belief system. It obviously works for you and that is absolutely fine. However, what you do and what we do are not the same thing.

The world is full of good shooters, great shooters are few and far between
 
#96
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charlie, I beg to differ. You can absolutely zero to a shooting error. I see it every day.
In fact, there are several top notch snipers I know that have come right out and made the statement " I cannot control my flinch, so I dial for it"
This is after I had pointed out that they had a flinch under stress.

Believe me brother, I do understand it. I have made it my life's work to understand it. I can tell you with absolute certainty that a shooter can zero to a shooting error. Just because it is consistent doesn't make it right.

The short fall of these errors become evident when the shooter is placed under stress. That is my job, to create stress in order to show shortcomings that need to be corrected.
This is a very different set of circumstances than competition shooting.
I guess it is just best for you to continue to do what you do with your own belief system. It obviously works for you and that is absolutely fine. However, what you do and what we do are not the same thing.

The world is full of good shooters, great shooters are few and far between</div></div>

Well, zero to error, why would you, what's the point? If you shoot a 9 at 9 and called it a 9 at 9 you certainly would not want to zero from the obvious error, no matter what the source, trigger control, NPA, etc. If you did make a sight correction the next shot would be a 9 at 3. You'd be perpetually chasing your shots. That's why follow through and calling the shot is so important, but, of course, you knew that.
 
#97
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

HAHAHA That has to be the most ridiculous thing you have said yet.
Essentially what you are saying is that if the bullet goes where you want it, go ahead and ignore the fundamentals.

I want one fighter to be able to pick up the other fighter's rifle and absolutely KNOW that the gun is zeroed because he is getting ready to use it to save either his life or one of his team mate's life.

he CANNOT worry that the gun he is picking up may have some sort of shooter induced error in the zero. There is too much at stake in that situation.

When you say:
"If you shoot a 9 at 9 and called it a 9 at 9"
I have no idea what that means.

I want the fighter to be absolutely sure that his target will have his heart blown out the back of his chest so that the fighter can continue the fight.
He will most probably have to do the above job from some sort of alternate position. When he does he cannot have some sort of stupid "necessary" sight adjustment because the rifle was "zeroed" prone running through his head. The only score being kept is who goes home and who doesn't.

We are talking about two entirely different things. You are worried about points, I am not.
 
#98
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


When you say:
"If you shoot a 9 at 9 and called it a 9 at 9"
I have no idea what that means.

</div></div>

Yes, it's clear you have no idea what that means. For you and others interested, calling the shot, on-call or not on-call allows for more meaningful shooter/target analysis. Take zeroing for example, if the shot goes on call but is not where it's supposed to be you're not likely to need to adjust the sight. When the shot is not on call, then adjustment of the sight may be exactly what you want to do.
 
#99
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

It's your verbiage, we don't speak like that and you are assuming we speak in scoring rings on a normal basis... 9 oclock in the 9 nine ring has little relevance.

As well we don't' lose time with our shots, we actually watch the holes appear in the paper, or see the impacts down range. We don't "call our shots" as in, "where <span style="font-style: italic">were</span> the sights when the shot broke", because we say, "where <span style="font-weight: bold">are</span> the sights" because we don't give up our sight picture. It's part of driving the rifle through recoil.

When you watch the video when I am editing you will see the rifles don't move enough to loose your sight picture at all.
 
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